Familyonthemove Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 All the advice on doing business in Thailand from books and advisors says that you must remain calm to avoid losing face and respect. In your experience is this really true? I've just moved from India, and working with a brilliant team of local managers we managed to open over 600 supermarkets in under 2 years ... but it was not done without some major shouting and arm waving. We were never really angry - but sometimes an Oscar-winning performance of red-faced explosive rage was needed to get things done. In my past experience of business in Thailand I've always remained calm and composed, but I've seen some of the 'Big Men' explode in a way that would make a battle-hardened Indian businessman blush. So are there occasions when a good old fashioned erruption gets results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pushit Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 All the advice on doing business in Thailand from books and advisors says that you must remain calm to avoid losing face and respect.In your experience is this really true? I've just moved from India, and working with a brilliant team of local managers we managed to open over 600 supermarkets in under 2 years ... but it was not done without some major shouting and arm waving. We were never really angry - but sometimes an Oscar-winning performance of red-faced explosive rage was needed to get things done. In my past experience of business in Thailand I've always remained calm and composed, but I've seen some of the 'Big Men' explode in a way that would make a battle-hardened Indian businessman blush. So are there occasions when a good old fashioned erruption gets results? Do Not Do That, you lose face, respect and employees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSJ Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 I don't think it's good form to loss it anywhere in the world. Better to employ someone else to do your dirty work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasabi Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Outward displays of anger has never worked to my advantage here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lannarebirth Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 I think that's what "consultants" are for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wxpwzrd Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 I don't think it's good form to loss it anywhere in the world. Better to employ someone else to do your dirty work! +1... But I also always do my own "dirty work" Regarding business and professionalism, I have never found it to be reasonable to "blow my top" anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lannarebirth Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Maybe Valjean will post here or you could send him a PM. He's been very forthcoming about his challanges and successes in managing Thais for a MNC here. You might look for some of the former topics he's started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgunn65 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 (edited) As part of my business I have a kitchen where I occasionally cook western food for our clients. Despite trying to learn Thai I have had great difficulty communicating. One of the biggest problems is that i ask for something the staff go off to get it but they have not understood. Instead of saying mae khow jai they spend 5 minutes looking for something that they dont know what is. This is frustrating. I tried being calm but in the end couldn't do it. When you are serving food for 15 people and timing is everything this behaviour is totally unacceptable. Since I have let them know by my actions the staff now understand that pretending to understand doesn't work. We lost some staff but now have a team who listen, ask and say they dont understand if necessary. The bottom line is they have improved as a team, their wages have gone up and I dont lose my temper. Is it wrong? Probably but we are always told we must accept Thai culture and the Thai way. That does not cut it in a commercial kitchen which is why when you go to a lot of Thai places you get food coming out willy nilly. Food is put on the table to get cold while you wait for someone to realise that a plate and rice would be a good idea. We have only western clients who pay a lot of money for our services therefore they expect good service. As far as I am concerned we run a western organisation in Thailand and we operate using western management principles and work ethics. Ask Gordon Ramsey about staying calm!! As Orsen Welles said," In 30 years under the Medici's there was war, terror, totrure and treason and it produced Michealangelo, Da Vinci and the Renaissance. Switzerland has had 500 years of peace and democracy and it produced the Cuckoo clock". There is a time and place for anger use it well and it can work. Edited July 31, 2008 by sgunn65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swanky Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I think it is very unprofessional to display over the top outburts of anger in any country, especially in Thailand. There are far better ways to reprimand someone who is not getting the job done or is not up to standard. Not only do the employees lose face but you also lose face and thus respect of the employees. If they still don't get it after numerous attempts to steer them in the right direction, summarily dismiss them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Familyonthemove Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Thanks for the interesting views .... as expected they cover a wide spectrum. Those of Sgunn65 most closely match my own experience of working in several countries throughout Asia. When Toyota set up a factory in Derbyshire they brought Japanese management techniques and the Derbyshire workers delivered Japan-beating levels of productivity. Isn't a combination of ferang style and local talent a better proposition than a carbon copy of a local business? I once worked with a talented business leader from the UK who was heading up an operation in Thailand. To improve the punctuality at meetings he used to lock the meeting room doors precisely at the meeting start time and post guards to turn away the latecomers. The Thai business text books would tell you that was wrong becuase the late-arrivers lost face. But nobody was ever late for their second meeting! As I mentioned, I've also seen senior Thai business people and politicians having a major strop .... and the world did not seem to come to an end. Is Thailand so unique that you should really never lose your cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barky Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 If you raise your voice and shout and show any obvious anger at a situation here, Thai people then feel no need to apologize, no matter what wrong they may have done you. In other words, many Thais think they can s**t all over you and expect you to just take it on the chin. As soon as you object and raise your voice or display your displeasure, in their mind, you lose face, not them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgunn65 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 If you raise your voice and shout and show any obvious anger at a situation here, Thai people then feel no need to apologize, no matter what wrong they may have done you. In other words, many Thais think they can s**t all over you and expect you to just take it on the chin. As soon as you object and raise your voice or display your displeasure, in their mind, you lose face, not them. I must live in a different Thailand to you as I have never had a Thai apologise for anything when I have kept my cool. When our tour guide ripped us off and was caught red handed he smiled. When taxi drivers go the wrong way they smile. This concept of losing face may work well thai on thai but my feeling is that when dealing with us it CAN be used as a way of getting away with it. Our previous chef would just giggle when he messed up and I did nothing then nip off for a snooze when my back was turned. This stopped when I started getting angry. However he did not like being corrected and left. Which was the right thing to do. The new chef did not get the luxury of me keeping face and we now understand each other and work well. She understands the work ethicand is thriving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaihome Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 “we run a western organisation in Thailand and we operate using western management principles and work ethics” I have to agree that in western business operating in Thailand (or anywhere in Asia), you are allowed to create a more western style working environment. Two caveats to that though. First is be prepared to let people go, some will not be able to adjust. Second is to not go over the top with anger, particularly in a group setting. You can get very serious an stern an accomplish much more. The trick is to get your people to understand when you are not happy without having to pitch a tantrum. If they are good, they will try real hard not get you like that. Especially, if a few have already been run off. “The new chef did not get the luxury of me keeping face and we now understand each other and work well.” That’s a great line… TH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundman Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Really depends on your "perceived" position in society as much as your position within a business. If you are running a small concern or only hold a management position within a company and have just a normal position on the social ladder, "blowing your top" will just get you laughed at. If, on the other hand, you are a major employer within your community, a large company CEO, are one of the local community leaders, the local "tao gair", or just generally "the man", "blowing your top" is tolerated, even expected of you at times, as when you make a decision the tremors touch eveybody locally. All has to do with respect & face I'm afraid. If you haven't "earn't" the right to "blow your top" - don't do it in public. If you really feel the urge, go into your office, lock your door and kick the shit out a filing cabinet or your computer monitor instead. Cheers, Soundman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farma Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I’ve watched a petite Thai manager in action on a number of occasions and she never fails to amaze me. Each time she remains calm and composed, speaks in a quiet and polite tone pointing out the error of their ways and how she expects things to happen in the future. The polite wording in her one way conversations carries unspoken stern warnings. To be honest I’d hate to be on the receiving end as I’ve felt like digging a hole and hiding just listening in. She’s always advised me to never raise my voice if I’m upset with someone. The moment you do, you’ve lost the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ray08 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 The books on how to do Business in Thailand , are IMO very extreme I own a medium size enterprise here , and i can tell you most THAIS HAVE NO FACE , all a con job about loss of face about this and that .Even today one person did not turn up for work but left a note saying he quits , where is the face ,happens a lot as far as i am concerned FACE= BS In the end they are employees and they must be treated with the same way you would if they were in your own country , and if every now and them you lose your temper ,so be it , they know they are working for a Ferang , And from my experience most Foreign companies here treat Thai staff better than Thai Companies, Better to run a business here as you would any other business around the world , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgjackson69 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 It is bad form everywhere.... You cannot really use the Indians as an example. They are not angry, even though it might seem so. They are proud, arrogant, and the loudest voice wins. Even then, after an Indian person goes into one of their "rants", asking their question then interrupting when you try to answer, I have found it more effective to ask in a firm, moderate tone of voice, "Would you like me to answer your question?" or state, "I would like a chance to answer your question please". That will often result in a higher-up shutting that person down...after all, in India, every person is the boss of at least one other person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgunn65 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 The bottom line is if you run a business here, is it profitable? If it is carry on doing what you are doing and f*** the protocol. Business is business and you need to do what is necessary. The seems to be a belief here that because we are in Thailand we must be Thai. WE ARE NOT THAI!! But we employ thai's. Therefore we have a right to expect a level of work that is acceptable to us. I am a very small affair but I employ 12 thai's which means 12 families earn because of my business. I pay my staff better than any comparable business. They get an English teacher teaching them English as part of their work hours. I will do everything I can to help them develop but for that i expect a certain standard of work. This is not too much to ask. If you think I am wrong then come here and offer them a job working for you. If they accept so be it I will find someone else to do their jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heng Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 Really depends on your "perceived" position in society as much as your position within a business.If you are running a small concern or only hold a management position within a company and have just a normal position on the social ladder, "blowing your top" will just get you laughed at. If, on the other hand, you are a major employer within your community, a large company CEO, are one of the local community leaders, the local "tao gair", or just generally "the man", "blowing your top" is tolerated, even expected of you at times, as when you make a decision the tremors touch eveybody locally. All has to do with respect & face I'm afraid. If you haven't "earn't" the right to "blow your top" - don't do it in public. If you really feel the urge, go into your office, lock your door and kick the shit out a filing cabinet or your computer monitor instead. Cheers, Soundman. Pretty good summary. That's not to say that blowing your top doesn't get results. It can indeed... but it just looks extremely bad... which if you're not really concerned about that, then it CAN be a non-issue. If you're not that important though, you might find though that some folks will tease you into getting pissed off if you are going to the same venues and know your very obvious weak spot, just to see if they can though. Myself I don't blow my top, but will indeed use the cool/controlled anger + unkind but polite sounding words thing time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barky Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 If you raise your voice and shout and show any obvious anger at a situation here, Thai people then feel no need to apologize, no matter what wrong they may have done you. In other words, many Thais think they can s**t all over you and expect you to just take it on the chin. As soon as you object and raise your voice or display your displeasure, in their mind, you lose face, not them. I must live in a different Thailand to you as I have never had a Thai apologise for anything when I have kept my cool. When our tour guide ripped us off and was caught red handed he smiled. When taxi drivers go the wrong way they smile. This concept of losing face may work well thai on thai but my feeling is that when dealing with us it CAN be used as a way of getting away with it. Our previous chef would just giggle when he messed up and I did nothing then nip off for a snooze when my back was turned. This stopped when I started getting angry. However he did not like being corrected and left. Which was the right thing to do. The new chef did not get the luxury of me keeping face and we now understand each other and work well. She understands the work ethicand is thriving. No, we live in the same place. It's unfortunate that you haven't yet received a "sorry" or "kor Tort" from a Thai when they were clearly in the wrong. I do agree with you, getting a sorry is as scarce as hens teeth, very rare indeed. But you may get one if you live here long enough. It's OK, because more often than not, nowadays, (depending on the company I'm with) if on the off chance I do something that usually requires a "sorry", I don't. I just pretend nothing happened. When in Rome!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerringDo Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 "Kor Tort" has more meanings and sometimes different from "Sorry": such as "Excuse me" with no acceptance of responsibility. Therefore the words are meaningless without some form of contrition. Those rip-off taxi drivers are a prime example. My wife doesn't even apologise when she's in the wrong which can be irritating. Flip side is I agree with Barky's pretend nothing's wrong, therefore she expects no apology from me. I have blown my top a few times with people who work for me (and with my boss behind a closed door which the staff heard anyway) and I really don't give a stuff about it. My staff explain to friends that I'm a "farang" so we do things differently. I'm known to do what I say and expect it from the people I work for and those who work for me. Let the Thais play the face game and concentrate on getting things done with a team you can "trust" would be my advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgjackson69 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 DerringDo > I have blown my top a few times with people who work for me... There is the key...in that situation, you are the boss and it is acceptable. Not the same as a meeting of peers, or in a vendor <-> customer interaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerringDo Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I'm sorry did you miss the words in brackets(parentheses)? Anything taken out of context has a different meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Familyonthemove Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 Excellent posts. Some contradictory, but that's real life and reflects our wide range of experience .... and all of value to me as I'm just setting up the business here (and in India). I'm initially recruiting friends as they are people I know and trust ..... so there will never be a need for emotion with the management team anyway. But as we (hopefully) grow we'll need to develop effective ways to ensure we deliver what our customers expect - and this is where the discussions in this post add value to me. Thanks to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgjackson69 Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 I'm sorry did you miss the words in brackets(parentheses)?Anything taken out of context has a different meaning. I did not miss the words in parenthesis, nothing was taken out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rken Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 I don't know but it seems like Thai's don't hold back when angry. Like the guy I flipped off while stopped at a light. I thought he was going to pop a blood vessel while screaming you stupid water buffalo. I have had apologies from more that one Thai. It didn't seem like it was something that wasn't done often by them. I must say that some Thais are among the rudest people I have ever met. More than average on a daily basis. I think that many abuse this no anger policy and act rude knowing they can get away with it, like cutting in line, because to say anything would make you lose face. Mai ba lai . To hel_l with that. aloha Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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