Cat Poisoned/killed By Vet Clinic In Bangkok

[lionheartsiam]

Cat Poisoned/Killed By Vet Clinic in BangkokWe adopted a beautiful orphaned soi cat after moving to the downtown area from northern Bangkok. We took him to a nearby small animal clinic on Thong Lo . (They also have another small clinic nearby, .) They gave him his initial vaccinations, neutering, etc. and we took him home after a six-day clinic stay.

Their pricing is very inflated, and you will even be charged different amounts for the same services - depending on which "vet" you see. Example: We have lived here over ten years and have taken in orphaned cats before, getting them vaccinated, and finding them homes. Each time, the average price for all services, including initial vaccinations and spaying/neutering is @ 2,000 - 2,500 baht...which includes 5-7 days stay at the clinic to ensure they have no contagious/terminal illnesses. When we picked up this cat they charged us a total of 11-12,000 baht!!!!

Pet Direct had given this cat liquid Ivermectin - which was a) unnecessary as he did not have mange or tick/fleas they gave him THREE HUGE TOXIC OVERDOSES of Ivermectin which caused ocular changes (eye colour/conjunctivitis/keratitis) and ended in total body paralysis/seizures/death. After a valiant 22-day fight he died a painful death with a swollen eosophagus (unable to eat or drink through GI tract) and seizures.

1. They overcharges their clients and advocates unnecessary tests and vaccinations, often giving tests and/or medications without discussion with the owner.

2. Ivermectin - in liquid form - per the U.S. manufacturer - is produced strictly for use in large animals such as horses, cattle, sheep. Ivermectin is toxic in liquid form to cats and to many dogs. There is NO antidote for Ivermectin poisoning. It is processed by the liver and only eliminated through faeces (not urine.) Animals with recessive genes (e.g. albino/white and blue eyes) and dogs/animals with the MDR-1 recessive gene (such as collies, shepherds) should never be given liquid Ivermectin as the drug bypasses the liver and goes directly to the brain, poisoning the animal. Liquid Ivermectin is manufactured for large farm animals and is designed to be absorbed by animals of that size. IF a dog or cat is given the liquid form, for severe cases of mange, etc. the dosage MUST BE in micrograms -- for example, the manufacturer states a cat should never receive a dosage of more than 24 micrograms PER KILO of body weight - and should never be given if the cat does not have a strong immune system (many animals taken in off the street would not initially be strong enough to withstand the drug.)

3. Developing/third world countries import liquid Ivermectin in bulk quantities, as it is cheap, and sell it to animal clinics who should never have access to the drug. Ivermectin is only recommended by the U.S. manufacturer for dogs and cats in tablet form.

4. Liquid Ivermectin should always be administered subcutaneously. The "vet" who administered the third shot said she injected the cat in the upper hind quarter, near the spinal/tail area...which means the toxic drug was absorbed more directly into his body/brain (subcutaneous injections are slower.)

5. When the cat became paralyzed I called SCAD (Soi Cat and Dog Rescue) and they recommended Sukhumvit Veterinarians at 995 Sukhumvit Road (between Sois 53 and 55) right under the BTS Thong Lo station. They recognized right away that the cat had Ivermectin poisoning - and the diagnosis was confirmed by vets at the Kasetsart University Veterinary Clinic/Animal Hospital.

6. Sukhumvit Veterinarians is an excellent clinic with qualified veterinarians who care about animals and put their care/welfare first. We recommend them highly for people living in downtown Bangkok. They spent three weeks trying to save the cat - giving him food by syringe, IV fluids when necessary, physical therapy/massage to try and prevent muscle atrophy, heat lamp to keep him warm. Their pricing is fair - and they charge the same whether you are Thai or expat - and they are knowledgable and qualified to treat small animals.

Ivermectin poisoning: because it is toxic with no antidote - you just have to wait and hope the drug eventually works its way out of the animals' system and they recover. There is not one documented case worldwide of a cat recovering from Ivermectin toxicity - they all died.

7. Kasetsart and Chula Unversities both have excellent animal hospitals/clinics attached to their teaching hospitals that can diagnose illnesses - very inexpensive - but you often have a long queue (several hours) as many people use their services.

8. They are being reported to the Veterinary Practice Association of Thailand (VPAT) and the Veterinary Council of Thailand for malpractice, licensing issues for the clinic and vets, etc.

Please do not patronize this clinic due to their inflated pricing, questionable training of vets/staff and issues of malpractice.

[girlx]

wow, sorry to hear about your cat. i had to give my dog liquid ivermectin daily for months because he had demodectic mange, and he ended up being ok, but i know it is a very harsh drug and you have to give it very carefully and only as a last resort.

[Scott]

My sympathies on your loss and your ordeal. It's very difficult to lose a pet, especially under such tragic circumstances.

[Rhys]

I'm sorry as well... Recently, my cats were poisoned... I suspect the neighbors.... I can appreciate your anger..

Best wishes.. Move on.. Cheers..

[Nienke]

I'm very sorry for your loss and this horrible experience.

Thank you for posting!

Nienke

P.S. You might want to add your recommendations and warning in the pinned veterinary thread as well.

[khun_j]

very sorry to hear that - and thanks for the warning. i´ll spread the word if possible.

i have a soi cat as well (she´s pregant - does anyone need a cat baby in about 12 weeks and happily we had a proper vet on ramkamhaeng.

[bina]

well, we do use it on cats with no problems, not on sick or weak or young ones; mostly we give to dogs orally (almost no collie types around here so really no problem)

asked the american vet i work with: he answered me in a mail i sent to him at home (he's a country vet so not in office certain days)

"I disagree with a lot of what it says. "HE is referring to the article above that the OP posted. "At the correct dose i think it is fine. I find that it sometimes causes a lump in cats that eventually goes away.

BUT, cats are small. they weigh only 4 kg so they should only get 0.1 cc. Thus it easy to overdose.

but even at 4x the dose it probably does not cause toxicity.

but only 1cc is 10 times the dose

"

we do use revolution more often as a anti parasitic and get rid of fleas and ear mites.

Ectoparasiticidal Agents

When treating patients with ectoparasites, environment and contact animals have to be considered as well. Environmental contamination is significant with fleas and chiggers (Trombicula, Neotrombicula, Walchia) and possibly with Cheyletiella. Contact animals must be treated for all ectoparasites except Demodex and chiggers, but, if dogs are affected with scabies, cats may not have to be treated and vice versa (Table 3-7). we dont hae heartworms in israel either so not a possiblity herre.

Table 3-7 Selected Ectoparasiticidal Agents in Small Animal Dermatology

Drug Formulation Comments Indications Side Effects Dog dose (D) Cat dose ©

Ivermectin 10 mg/kg bovine injectable solution (often given orally to small animals), 10 mg/ml equine oral solution Idiosyncratic toxicities most common in Collies and Old English Sheepdogs, but also possible in other breeds. Gradual dose increase from 50 µg/kg on day 1 to 100 µg on day 2, 150 µg on day 3, 200 mg on day 4 and 300 mg on day 5 to identify sensitive patients before severe adverse effects occur. Heartworm prevention. Oral and subcutaneous administration: Canine and feline scabies,Otodectes cynotisinfestations, demodicosis, cheyletiellosis, lice Topical administration: Canine scabies Lethargy, ataxia, tremors, mydriasis, coma, respiratory arrest Heartworm prevention at 6 µg/kg monthly. Oral and subcutaneous administration (with gradual increase from 50 to 300 µg within 4 days): 300 µg/kg daily for demodicosis until 8 weeks after the first negative skin scraping, four administrations 1 week apart for all other ectoparasites. (D, C) Topical administration: Ivermectin pour-on for cattle administered at 500 mg/kg (0.1 ml/kg) applied along the dorsal midline twice 2 weeks apart was reported to be effective for canine scabies.

not wanting to argue but any medication can cause problems: we recently (well, one of our vets) accidently poisoned a one kilo dog (a chihuahua/peke mix pup) by using a spray called duowin (looks like frontline but not the same chemicals. the label wasnt in hebrew but in french only. bottle has same labelling colours and design ) the vet used it and it wasnt meant to be used on a pup under three months. the owners waited too long (a week!!) when the pup showed signs of illness, wanting to save money, so by the time they came for treatment, it was too late. atropine and symptomatic treatment would have saved him. the people actaully were relieved i think as they didnt seem too thrilled with having a pup, it was for their children... but thats an other story. therefore the delayed reatction in coming in for treatment.

just like with people, accidents happen. sometimes its a combination of stupidity on the part of the owner (not sayign op is stupid just mentioning that often lack of knowlege plus different situations ends up with a big problem . )

a sample of a good vet is when for instance, what happened a few days ago , inadvertanly an owner mentioned that his dog had been in the states for the past year, this was one second before we gave the ivomac orally to the dog.... we stopped and told them they have to do a heartworm test.. since in israel there is no heartworm, most local vets wouldnt have thought of asking or listening when the owner volunteered the information. the owner had mentioned it as a by the way comment, not as useful knwolege...we could have killed her dog.

just more food for thought....

sorry for your loss-- almost every week i have to deal with an owner losing his/her loved pet due to disease, car accident,old age, or sometimes negligence from the owner (lack of money to treat etc)... and once or twice on the operating table in emergency situations. no matter if it is a pup or an 18 year old senile dog, its still sad and difficult; the more so if it was due to some medical 'technicality' ...

bina

[Nignoy]

Really sorry for your loss, but ivermectin is widely used in tablet form for the treatment of felines big and small, it is also used in liquid form by many european vets in the treatmentof small cats and dogs, while many vets use their practises as a business to print money , one cannot not say that the vets you used deliberately overdosed your pets, , you sing the praises of Kasetsart andChula, why did you not go to them first, vets and veterinary treatment facilities have been putting up with these types of accusations , since we checked noahs animals into the ark,what has a vet to gain from deliberately overdosing your pet, I understand your anguish but what right have you to publicly malign and slander a veterinary practise publicly like this!!You would never dare to do it in your home country, never let your feelings rule your common sense, think of the irreperable damage you are doing, you lost a cat, not a member of your family, accidents happen to all of us in our life times in the animal care business!! what we dont need is hysterical diatribe accusing us of deliberately poisoning animals trusted into our care.I have no connection or affiliation with any veterinary services in thailand

[tracker]

I have 3 cats and 2 dogs. After seeing one dog loosing most of its immune system after vaccination, I stopped it for all my pets. It has been very surprising:

I got the latest cat in january. She's 9 months now. While keeping her in the house, until "fixed" she was having a lot of flees. She has had no vaccines ever (picked her up very young at a Wat). After being allowed later in my small garden, the flees reduced. Now I have to look hard (very easy to spot as she's white) to find one.

She's rolling in the sand in the garden regularly or in the little dust on the concrete road in front of the house. She healthy and alive. without any vaccine. I intent to keep it that way...

Nature always has it ways. I don't know how, but I trust them.

[geriatrickid]

May I suggest that you also write to the drug manufacturer. You may be surprised but reputable manufacturers in North america and the EU, do make an effort to ensure that their products are used properly. Inappropriate use that causes ADRs damages the brand. It may take a while, and you will probably get a letter denying responsibility, but all of the reputable manufacturers have a loss control procedure that requires an investigation. Even if it does no good for you, if there have been other complaints, the manufacturer will issue a warning letter to the importers and that can have an impact on their conduct.

I am not familiar with the veterinary version, but in humans the dosing is usually 1 dose and is branded as Stromectol. The manufacturer Merck doesn't screw around. Following multiple incidents including the Vioxx billion dollar settlement, Merck takes complaints very seriously.

I understand your concern. Alot of human health practioners rely on pharmaceutical salespeople to educate them on drugs. Unfortunately, the situation is no different with veterinarians. That is why selling practices are now the number source of pharmaceutical regulatory investigations. The product monograph may be deficient or sales presentations may need to be modified to highlight the proper dosing. Your letter to the manufacturer could alert it to a problem.

[TopDogger]

I guess you take your new cat to a different vet then?

What are the symptoms of a animal being poisoned by neighbours?

I had a dog round @ my ex's familys house in central BKK, it was a bit of a mischeivous golden retreiver.. One day it suddenly started developing big red patches of inflamed skin where all the hair had fallen out, the next I heard it had been taken to their house upcountry to live, which I didn't beleive for a minute..

Poisoning sound about right?

[Ta22]

First of all . i am sorry to hear the Story .

-

Personally The price Wise you should had ask before you Made any payment and YOU can choose to say NO >.

-

As i heard so many staory and the forum had many time been used as a Rubbish thread to post Bad ads for other rival shop ..

as you are a New poster with only 2 post under you .. i would not give you much credit for your post ..

You do not need to even pay $2000-2500 to Vac your pet .. i did my Dog for 500b .. and my wife a animal lover can get dog and cat Vac for 350 in her home town which we bring back sometime ..

NO business is sucessful building on SCAM .. especially a Clinic which is very much base on REPEAT customer especially PET clinic .

personally i had not been to the clinic but maybe for the SAke of the post i would go DO a review and take some photo and interview a Few perosn .. would be be kind enough to PM me your name so i can check .. and if needed i do know some lawyer and i would be happy to help you sue on behalf and make some money from it .

sorry to say so but i can't help you see you discrediting one place and then PUSHY Sukhumvit Veterinarians at the reader and even o the extent of Typing the Address for everyone .///

and also is kinda RUDe to type it all in BOLD .. worrying that reader can't see what you type /.

which made me think what is your intention ..

i would go down and do a review .. for my Website . and see if what you said is True and if you are kind enough eouold you post up some info for any user who would be intersted in checking out ..

and also i would check on Sukhumvit Veterinarian also .. and do a Price Compare for local Vet .. alot of Clinic do over price when it come to farang custome r.. and 2000 for a Vac in my view is already over price .

let me guess Sukhumvit Veterinarians charging 2000-2500 for a vac for pet ?

also from the fact that Sukhumvit Veterinarians abd this place is kinda close to each other ? i am wondering if you are from Sukhumvit Veterinarians --- Just a guess ..

anyway -- all the best .

they overcharges their clients and advocates unnecessary tests and vaccinations, often giving tests and/or medications without discussion with the owner.

The word OFFEN made it sound like your been a Regular customer or Know them very well .

Second for someone who know so much about all the treatment and Name of all the much needed Drug for all the PET ?? how did you end up .. getting Overcharge ?? 11k - 12k

[lionheartsiam]

I'm very sorry for your loss and this horrible experience.

Thank you for posting!

Nienke

P.S. You might want to add your recommendations and warning in the pinned veterinary thread as well.

Actually, I don't know how to do that...if you can tell me how to add it to the pinned vet thread, or do it for me, that would be great. Thanks.

[lionheartsiam]

I'm having trouble navigating this new forum - guess I have finally figured out how to do replies!

Thank you for your informative and useful reply. Actually, I have already researched the Merck website and am in the process of documenting the overdose to the US facility. I see they have a local office on Rama IV, so I will go in to see them after I have the documentation ready to take to VPAT and the government licensing board. The office here can obviously be more involved in the training/dissemination of drugs and their dosages/side effects to vets and clinics.

There are several issues at play here. It is plain from the Merck website that they advocate never giving liquid Ivermectin to any dogs or cats - it was meant for humans (as you mentioned) and for large farm animals such as horses and cattle. The ASPCA (US organization) among others has documented that liquid Ivermectin is sold in bulk to overseas suppliers and they in turn sell it to clinics without proper training or information. Heartgard and tablets are the only forms that should be used for small animals.

I would certainly never ask Merck to take responsibility, as it was not their mistake. If you look at their website, it is very clear that this drug was never meant for how it is being used in developing/third world countries such as Thailand. As you say, I hope alerting Merck, and others, will mean that liquid Ivermectin is not as readily supplied to small animal clinics; and when it is, that proper dosage is part of the protocol along with toxicity warnings, so that practitioners know what to look for. The death of this cat was totally unnecessary.

Thank you again - it would seem you have a medical background, and I appreciate your input.

May I suggest that you also write to the drug manufacturer. You may be surprised but reputable manufacturers in North america and the EU, do make an effort to ensure that their products are used properly. Inappropriate use that causes ADRs damages the brand. It may take a while, and you will probably get a letter denying responsibility, but all of the reputable manufacturers have a loss control procedure that requires an investigation. Even if it does no good for you, if there have been other complaints, the manufacturer will issue a warning letter to the importers and that can have an impact on their conduct.

I am not familiar with the veterinary version, but in humans the dosing is usually 1 dose and is branded as Stromectol. The manufacturer Merck doesn't screw around. Following multiple incidents including the Vioxx billion dollar settlement, Merck takes complaints very seriously.

I understand your concern. Alot of human health practioners rely on pharmaceutical salespeople to educate them on drugs. Unfortunately, the situation is no different with veterinarians. That is why selling practices are now the number source of pharmaceutical regulatory investigations. The product monograph may be deficient or sales presentations may need to be modified to highlight the proper dosing. Your letter to the manufacturer could alert it to a problem.

[lionheartsiam]

You sound like a holistic pet owner - which is probably a good thing here! I agree in many ways - again, if you read holistic pet websites, there are many ways to protect our pets without using vaccines and excessive meds. The greatest danger here is our pets, if allowed to roam freely outside, picking up diseases from other soi dogs and cats. If your animals are indoors and/or in your garden, then you probably have little to worry about. All our cats are kept indoors, and never go outside, so we don't have to worry. Our dog only goes out on a leash, so again little to worry about. Animals in that category do not need to be vaccinated every year, in most cases, as the vaccines last longer than 12 months. I am glad that your pets are all well and healthy...and you are right, nature has its own way.

I was worried about taking in a soi cat that might give unknown diseases to our existing animals. Unfortunately, I chose the wrong vet - and was not being vigilant enough when it came to what they were doing.

If you ever do have any questions/problems and want information from other holistic pet care owners - vets - an excellent site is www.drweil.com and go to the forum on holistic pet care. They can certainly help you if you ever need help. Thank you for your response.

I have 3 cats and 2 dogs. After seeing one dog loosing most of its immune system after vaccination, I stopped it for all my pets. It has been very surprising:

I got the latest cat in january. She's 9 months now. While keeping her in the house, until "fixed" she was having a lot of flees. She has had no vaccines ever (picked her up very young at a Wat). After being allowed later in my small garden, the flees reduced. Now I have to look hard (very easy to spot as she's white) to find one.

She's rolling in the sand in the garden regularly or in the little dust on the concrete road in front of the house. She healthy and alive. without any vaccine. I intent to keep it that way...

Nature always has it ways. I don't know how, but I trust them.

[lionheartsiam]

Bina ---- it certainly was a misuse of medication in this case. The cat was obviously weak and had a weakened immune system because it was an orphan living in the streets. And he originally went in weighing less than 3 kg. The tablet forms are safe, and one dose in tablet form would have been fine -- or even one liquid dose if it had been the proper amount probably wouldn't have killed him. But three doses - and starting out at 0.4 ml - the overdose was clear, even to the Thai vets investigating the case. In addition, the liquid Ivermectin wasn't necessary at all as the cat didn't have any terrible parasitic/mange infestations. This drug is toxic to small animals - and has no antidote - so why it would even be used, except in dire cases, is a mystery to most people. 'Revolution' is what should have been used and is a much safer choice. Or liquid earmite solution put in the ears with cotton buds would have taken care of what he had. The scientific data you put in is appreciated, as it may be of use to other pet owners. I already had printed out the information a couple of weeks ago off the Merck Pharmaceutical website and the U.S. ASPCA website. You and your U.S. vet/associate may be interested in looking at their documentation. If you do an internet search using "cat ivermection toxicity" you will find several vet journal articles written by reputable vets/ hospitals/animal care providers. The vet school at Washington State University in Pullman, Washington also has published an excellent article on IVM toxicity in cats and dogs and they also have good information on their website re: the vaccination/care of small animals. www.wsu.vetmed.edu In addition, this cat was given a lot of vaccinations at one time, along with the liquid Ivermectin. Given his low weight and questionable immunity, it would have been better to spread out the immunizations over a longer period of time and not to have given the liquid IVM at all - according to my old vet in the U.S., the second vet I took him to here in Bangkok, and the vets at Kasetsart.

When I took the cat in for treatment - I asked this new clinic to give the cat a blood test to rule out any contagious/fatal diseases, to have him neutered and have a microchip put in, to get rid of the ear mites, and to start him on the basic vaccinations necessary. I told them he would be living in our home and would not be going outside at all after we took him home. He had no ticks or fleas or mange (easy to see on that pure white coat.) I asked them, as I have asked every other vet in the past, to keep him for 6-7 days to ensure that he had no internal worms or parasites that could be transmitted to our other animals through faeces, urine, or saliva. I have the records of all the animals we have taken in over the years, and this was the first time any vet had ever used liquid Ivermectin on any animal. But again, I didn't know they had given him liquid Ivermectin until after the paralysis, as they didn't list it on his vacc card, nor did they put a sticker in the vacc card, as vets usually do with most meds or rabies vaccs.

It is a shame, and I do not think any animal should have to go through the paralysis and seizures he suffered prior to his death. If you do research this topic on the net - and specifically the ASPCA article published by their poison control center in Urbana, Illinois - the cat suffered every single symptom of Ivermectin toxicity and no antidote is available. I still feel the clinic should have considered the ocular changes as being a symptom of possible side effects or toxicity, given the number of vaccinations the cat received. On just one day - he was given simultaneous doses of all the following vaccines: Rabies - FPV - FCV - FHV - Feline Chlamydophilia Disease - FeLV - FIP - a deworming tablet - AND a 0.4 ml dose of what they said was heartworm prevention (only after his paralysis did I find out it was liquid Ivermectin). That's NINE vaccinations at the same time - including one that is an overdose - to an underweight cat that undoubtedly had a weakened immune system. When I asked them to give the basic, necessary vaccinations, I was not expecting them to give him all those - and not at the same time. But, that is not for me to decide. All I can do is notify the proper Thai authoritites, which is being done, for them to take proper action against the vets/clinic involved -- and to notify the U.S. manufacturer, in the hopes that more warnings are included with this drug, that unqualified vets/clinics do not have such ready access, and that more training is given to the pharmaceutical reps who are selling it to the clinics in the first place so that overdoses are not given so readily to small animals.

I hope the information you provided in your reply is of use to other pet owners. It is certainly important to ask about every single medication that is being given, the dosage, and to do research ahead of time if possible. My goal here is education - and hopefully an improvement in how liquid Ivermection is marketed, along with better training regarding dosage and toxicity by the manufacturer.

Thank you for your response and additional information, that may be of help to other pet owners.

well, we do use it on cats with no problems, not on sick or weak or young ones; mostly we give to dogs orally (almost no collie types around here so really no problem)

asked the american vet i work with: he answered me in a mail i sent to him at home (he's a country vet so not in office certain days)

"I disagree with a lot of what it says. "HE is referring to the article above that the OP posted. "At the correct dose i think it is fine. I find that it sometimes causes a lump in cats that eventually goes away.

BUT, cats are small. they weigh only 4 kg so they should only get 0.1 cc. Thus it easy to overdose.

but even at 4x the dose it probably does not cause toxicity.

but only 1cc is 10 times the dose

"

we do use revolution more often as a anti parasitic and get rid of fleas and ear mites.

Ectoparasiticidal Agents

When treating patients with ectoparasites, environment and contact animals have to be considered as well. Environmental contamination is significant with fleas and chiggers (Trombicula, Neotrombicula, Walchia) and possibly with Cheyletiella. Contact animals must be treated for all ectoparasites except Demodex and chiggers, but, if dogs are affected with scabies, cats may not have to be treated and vice versa (Table 3-7). we dont hae heartworms in israel either so not a possiblity herre.

Table 3-7 Selected Ectoparasiticidal Agents in Small Animal Dermatology

Drug Formulation Comments Indications Side Effects Dog dose (D) Cat dose ©

Ivermectin 10 mg/kg bovine injectable solution (often given orally to small animals), 10 mg/ml equine oral solution Idiosyncratic toxicities most common in Collies and Old English Sheepdogs, but also possible in other breeds. Gradual dose increase from 50 µg/kg on day 1 to 100 µg on day 2, 150 µg on day 3, 200 mg on day 4 and 300 mg on day 5 to identify sensitive patients before severe adverse effects occur. Heartworm prevention. Oral and subcutaneous administration: Canine and feline scabies,Otodectes cynotisinfestations, demodicosis, cheyletiellosis, lice Topical administration: Canine scabies Lethargy, ataxia, tremors, mydriasis, coma, respiratory arrest Heartworm prevention at 6 µg/kg monthly. Oral and subcutaneous administration (with gradual increase from 50 to 300 µg within 4 days): 300 µg/kg daily for demodicosis until 8 weeks after the first negative skin scraping, four administrations 1 week apart for all other ectoparasites. (D, C) Topical administration: Ivermectin pour-on for cattle administered at 500 mg/kg (0.1 ml/kg) applied along the dorsal midline twice 2 weeks apart was reported to be effective for canine scabies.

not wanting to argue but any medication can cause problems: we recently (well, one of our vets) accidently poisoned a one kilo dog (a chihuahua/peke mix pup) by using a spray called duowin (looks like frontline but not the same chemicals. the label wasnt in hebrew but in french only. bottle has same labelling colours and design ) the vet used it and it wasnt meant to be used on a pup under three months. the owners waited too long (a week!!) when the pup showed signs of illness, wanting to save money, so by the time they came for treatment, it was too late. atropine and symptomatic treatment would have saved him. the people actaully were relieved i think as they didnt seem too thrilled with having a pup, it was for their children... but thats an other story. therefore the delayed reatction in coming in for treatment.

just like with people, accidents happen. sometimes its a combination of stupidity on the part of the owner (not sayign op is stupid just mentioning that often lack of knowlege plus different situations ends up with a big problem . )

a sample of a good vet is when for instance, what happened a few days ago , inadvertanly an owner mentioned that his dog had been in the states for the past year, this was one second before we gave the ivomac orally to the dog.... we stopped and told them they have to do a heartworm test.. since in israel there is no heartworm, most local vets wouldnt have thought of asking or listening when the owner volunteered the information. the owner had mentioned it as a by the way comment, not as useful knwolege...we could have killed her dog.

just more food for thought....

sorry for your loss-- almost every week i have to deal with an owner losing his/her loved pet due to disease, car accident,old age, or sometimes negligence from the owner (lack of money to treat etc)... and once or twice on the operating table in emergency situations. no matter if it is a pup or an 18 year old senile dog, its still sad and difficult; the more so if it was due to some medical 'technicality' ...

bina

[lionheartsiam]

Yes, it is...and given in the wrong dose and when unnecessary...I'm glad your dog is fine. I just want pet owners here to be aware of the danger, and if you do have pets, make sure they are given only what is necessary and in the correct dosage. Barks and purrs!

wow, sorry to hear about your cat. i had to give my dog liquid ivermectin daily for months because he had demodectic mange, and he ended up being ok, but i know it is a very harsh drug and you have to give it very carefully and only as a last resort.

[sbk]

Really sorry for your loss, but ivermectin is widely used in tablet form for the treatment of felines big and small, it is also used in liquid form by many european vets in the treatmentof small cats and dogs, while many vets use their practises as a business to print money , one cannot not say that the vets you used deliberately overdosed your pets, , you sing the praises of Kasetsart andChula, why did you not go to them first, vets and veterinary treatment facilities have been putting up with these types of accusations , since we checked noahs animals into the ark,what has a vet to gain from deliberately overdosing your pet, I understand your anguish but what right have you to publicly malign and slander a veterinary practise publicly like this!!You would never dare to do it in your home country, never let your feelings rule your common sense, think of the irreperable damage you are doing, you lost a cat, not a member of your family, accidents happen to all of us in our life times in the animal care business!! what we dont need is hysterical diatribe accusing us of deliberately poisoning animals trusted into our care.I have no connection or affiliation with any veterinary services in thailand

I have left some details but please PM the poster if you want to know the name of the clinic.

[lionheartsiam]

Thank you so much - it's a word to the wise, for pet owners everywhere. I hope it makes people more aware, so another animal doesn't have to suffer as Cirrus did. I would certainly never let another pet of mine be given that particular drug. Barks and Purrs!

My sympathies on your loss and your ordeal. It's very difficult to lose a pet, especially under such tragic circumstances.

[lionheartsiam]

My sympathies for your loss as well - I know that a lot of animals are poisoned here, more dogs than cats, I expect, simply because they make more noise and even bigger messes. What a shame. We never let our cats out of the house, and our dog only goes out on the leash with a pooper scooper in our hands to pick up her "messes!"

I have documented everything that happened - given it to the proper Thai vet agencies for investigation, VPAT and the govt. licensing board - and also notified Merck Pharmaceuticals, so they will hopefully step up their training re: proper usage/doseage/toxicology signs in dogs and cats. And perhaps pet owners will ask more questions - what is the vaccine/med - what is the dosage... So I've done what I can...and yes, onward and upward. Barks and Purrs!

I'm sorry as well... Recently, my cats were poisoned... I suspect the neighbors.... I can appreciate your anger..

Best wishes.. Move on.. Cheers..

[lionheartsiam]

Well, yes....we were fortunate that the second vet - who tried to help Cirrus through the paralysis - turned out to be so wonderful. The other main vet at her clinic, who is there six days a week, is also great, and tried so hard to help our cat....they gave him physical therapy and massages every day, trying to help the poison work its' way out of his system. I only wish we had taken Cirrus there in the first place - he would still be alive today. Sukhumvit Veterinary on Sukhumvit 53 (between 53 and 55 - right on Sukhumvit under the skytrain entry.) A small place - blink and you'll miss it - but I recommend them highly. Prices are what they should be -- no double-tier pricing for natives and expats -- and they love and care about the animals as if they were their own. Only bad thing - they are only open 12 - 13 hours a day (8AM until 8 or 9PM, I think) so no 24 hour service if you have an emergency. The owner has been practicing for over 30 years, and when I took a paralyzed Cirrus into her clinic, she took one look at him, and at his vacc card, and said ,"Ivermectin poisoning, I guarantee it." Kasetsart said same diagnosis immediately when they saw him soon after. So if you have any more pets, know there is at least one good clinic downtown you can take your animals to!

I'm no expert wen it comes to poisoning - you could probably describe the symptoms to a vet and they could tell you much better. But it is certainly likely. As dogs will eat almost anything, it's easy to slip any cheap, easily obtained poison into their food, or some treat, and they gulp it down. Rat poison was always a favorite of people in the US who were bothered by someone's dog. Golden retrievers are such magnificent, exuberant, friendly animals - and they are so trusting - what a terrible shame. I'm sure he's not anywhere up country - rubbish! I can only hope he didn't suffer. If people can't keep an animal, why can't they look for another home, instead of dumping them or killing them? I'm sorry for you, and your dog.... Barks and Purrs!

I guess you take your new cat to a different vet then?

What are the symptoms of a animal being poisoned by neighbours?

I had a dog round @ my ex's familys house in central BKK, it was a bit of a mischeivous golden retreiver.. One day it suddenly started developing big red patches of inflamed skin where all the hair had fallen out, the next I heard it had been taken to their house upcountry to live, which I didn't beleive for a minute..

Poisoning sound about right?

[lionheartsiam]

1. You are absolutely right. I should have not trusted this clinic to be similar in pricing to all the other clinics and vets we have used in Bangkok over the past eleven years. I should have requested a detailed pricing sheet before leaving the cat and going home. I should have made daily checks at the clinic, asking in detail what had been done, the prices for each service, and the current total.

But, you see, I've lived in Smiling - My Pen Rai - Thailand - for over ten years and lived in four different areas of Bangkok. I've been treated fairly by the vets/clinics and pricing has been virtually identical at all of them.

2. It would seem you are an expat married to a Thai lady. If your wife takes an animal into a clinic up country, I'm sure the prices are lower. Just as I would assume the prices are a little lower in Minburi than they are in downtown Bangkok. As I said in my original post, the cat was left there for six days so he could be checked for contagious/life-threatening diseases as well as give an opportunity to get all worms, if any, out of his system, etc. It is important to take those measures if you are taking a street animal into a house with other dogs and cats who have no diseases (and we have no place to "quarantine" an animal.) So the pricing includes a week's stay/food at the clinic, including lab work, a microchip, initial vaccinations, spaying/neutering as appropriate, etc. I'm sure you would agree that 2,000 - 2,500 baht is in line - as a total price - with all of those procedures. And it is what I was charged at vet clinics in three different parts of Bangkok over the years.

3. I am a "new post" as you put it because several people suggested the ThaiVisa.com forum as a good place to tell the story of what happened to our cat. It is not RUBBISH -- and in case you were not aware, people often use capital letters to emphasize and make a point. I normally don't waste this much time at the computer on the internet. I have other things to do. But Cirrus deserves this.

4. Unfortunately, if I am to base your writing skills on your limited grasp of the English vernacular, and grammar as based your response, I do not think it would be in anyone's best interest for you to write any sort of review with photos....where on earth do you think you would be published? Are you really an expat - or just a Thai pretending to be one - you certainly did not grow up in a country where English is a first language! Tit for tat, as it were...as you have cast so many aspersions over my character and intentions!

5. A lawyer is unnecessary, and a waste of money, as I will make all the points I need to with the documents/reports that have gone to two Thai government agencies. Agencies, by the way, that were recommended to me by Thai vets that are on the boards of both groups.

6. As you may recall, I also listed the addresses of *** In total fairness, I listed the second clinic, along with their address, as we were so happy with their service, and their efforts to save our cat from the firsty clinics' ineptitude. In each case, I listed the name of the clinic and address. If I am going to report on what happened (negatively) at one place --- and then we (and our pets) are treated so well at another ---- it is only fair that I give both sides, and addresses, to the story. I am reporting documented truths here - nothing more. I am not pushing anything on anyone. Only reporting the truth, and what happened to us. What people decide to do with that - and what the government agencies decide to do inrelationship to the original clinic/vets involved - is out of my hands.

7. Unfortunately, in responding to your post item by item, some of your typing is so bad - should I put that in caps? (hah, hah!) - that I can't even understand what you are trying to say. You are free to check out, do a review, take photos, ask questions, of any clinic any where, any time. You don't need my permission to do so. So, if you feel so inclined, please go ahead! Perhaps you can do a scathing undercover report on all the pet clinics in Bangkok!

8. Again - to answer your repeated inquiry - 2,000 to 2,500 baht is for several different services over a one week period -- see #2 above!!!!!

9. Good grief -- it's a Thai business, there for over 30 years. Do I really sound Thai? Owned by a Thai family - and Thai vets....I am an expat living here who owns animals, and occasionally takes in the stray soi cat to get them ready for a new home.

10. The reason I said "often" - not to use the capital letters you used, which seem to bother you so much, is that I was told about their pricing and practice of "adding on" by the vets/teachers I met with (after the cat's death) re: this case at Kasetsart University, SCAD, and another Thai rescue society, pantip at Jatujak, to name a few. I am not going to list any other "personal" names of people in this post. Suffice to say, we are not the only people who have noticed the exhorbitant pricing, among other things.

11. Oh, and the "reason" these two clinics are fairly close to each other is - big surprise here! - they are both close to our new residence. Without a car, I am not going to transport animals on a regular basis 20 - 30 km. by taxi to continue seeing our former vets! When you move, you find a new vet nearby. Stop trying to make something malicious out of this! My intent is to inform other pet owners so that they don't lose a pet to Ivermectin toxicity, and our experience with the first clinic can be taken into account by other people when choosing a clinic.

and 12. I "know so much about the drugs" including Ivermectin, because as soon as Cirrus became paralyzed I began doing research. It doesn't take much to find reputable websites, such as the ASPCA (their poison control center in Urbana, Illinois) in the United States, WSU (Washington State University) in Pullman, WA who has a world-renowned vet college and have an extensive website on many subjects, including Ivermectin toxicity and appropriate vaccinations for dogs/cats, or perhaps you should try looking at the3 Merial/Merck Pharmaceuticals website in the US - see what they have to say about their development of the drug Ivermectin and their recommendations for use!! So not only can I read, but I can also print out pertinent documentation.....and my two Master's degrees mean that somewhere along the way, during all my college years, I learned to write a cohesive sentice and communicate well verbally in front of a group!

And....since you seem to have trouble remembering this -- I made the mistake of thinking that clinic was like the others we had used here over the years...that the pricing would be comparable to all the others we had used over the years. In addition, SCAD had provided the original referral, and the clinic (Pet Direct) also knew we were rescuing a soi cat. In most cases, that means you don't blatantly overcharge the customer! So I didn't feel the "need" to question them about their pricing structure - for the above reasons. Enough said, I hope!!!!!

My goal is to inform pet owners of the dangers of liquid Ivermectin, to warn Merck Pharmaceuticals that their medical reps need to ensure that qualified vets/clinics are being given access to such a dangerous drug, and those that are have been given proper training in the the proper dosage, as well as signs of reaction/toxicity. I am also reporting on two different experiences at two different pet clinics in the downtown area, near our residence. What people choose to do with that information is their own personal choice.

When the government agencies are through with their investigation, and I know the outcome, I am happy to post the results of same. At that time, if you still wish to have a xerox copy of what I have given to the various agencies and companies involved in this case, I will be happy to furnish you with your own personal copy. Until the investigation is finished, however, I am not at liberty to give out any documentation.

I am sorry that you are so jaded and suspicious -- not the way I want to live my life! I hope the death of Cirrus can bring about some changes for the good - for the better - and other animals do not have to endure such a painful, tragic death.....Karma will find those at fault, if there is no immediate justice. Believe what you will!

First of all . i am sorry to hear the Story .

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Personally The price Wise you should had ask before you Made any payment and YOU can choose to say NO >.

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As i heard so many staory and the forum had many time been used as a Rubbish thread to post Bad ads for other rival shop ..

as you are a New poster with only 2 post under you .. i would not give you much credit for your post ..

You do not need to even pay $2000-2500 to Vac your pet .. i did my Dog for 500b .. and my wife a animal lover can get dog and cat Vac for 350 in her home town which we bring back sometime ..

NO business is sucessful building on SCAM .. especially a Clinic which is very much base on REPEAT customer especially PET clinic .

personally i had not been to the clinic but maybe for the SAke of the post i would go DO a review and take some photo and interview a Few perosn .. would be be kind enough to PM me your name so i can check .. and if needed i do know some lawyer and i would be happy to help you sue on behalf and make some money from it .

sorry to say so but i can't help you see you discrediting one place and then PUSHY Sukhumvit Veterinarians at the reader and even o the extent of Typing the Address for everyone .///

and also is kinda RUDe to type it all in BOLD .. worrying that reader can't see what you type /.

which made me think what is your intention ..

i would go down and do a review .. for my Website . and see if what you said is True and if you are kind enough eouold you post up some info for any user who would be intersted in checking out ..

and also i would check on Sukhumvit Veterinarian also .. and do a Price Compare for local Vet .. alot of Clinic do over price when it come to farang custome r.. and 2000 for a Vac in my view is already over price .

let me guess Sukhumvit Veterinarians charging 2000-2500 for a vac for pet ?

also from the fact that Sukhumvit Veterinarians abd this place is kinda close to each other ? i am wondering if you are from Sukhumvit Veterinarians --- Just a guess ..

anyway -- all the best .

they overcharges their clients and advocates unnecessary tests and vaccinations, often giving tests and/or medications without discussion with the owner.

The word OFFEN made it sound like your been a Regular customer or Know them very well .

Second for someone who know so much about all the treatment and Name of all the much needed Drug for all the PET ?? how did you end up .. getting Overcharge ?? 11k - 12k