My Experiences With Thai Monks

[Richb2004v2]

At the end of the day these ‘monks’ are just men in robes, Thai men in robes. Some of them are only part timers and others are probably just lazy scroungers. I have no respect for them and neither does my Thai wife or her younger family members. They have all experienced the prevalent bad side of the monks and are therefore at least qualified to take this stance.

I always wonder why people like you bother to post on the Buddhist part of the site. If Buddhism is not for you then that is fine, but why do you feel the need to post this stuff here. Have you no respect? Do you not believe that people have a right to see things differently from you? Do you feel that it is your job to educate? Will you be visiting the Muslim and Christian forums later to criticise their views?

The OP was to highlight a number of bad experiences with Monks here in Thailand. Should he not have bothered? Do you not wish to hear anything negative about this institution? By adding my post I was assuring the OP that he was not alone in his somewhat jaded opinion of the monks. I was not the only one to do this; I simply stated that I have no respect for them, which I don’t. I have no respect for anyone that dedicates their life to ancient mythology like this, although they do add colour to the country. I now realize this was a little inconsiderate to those that chose to do exactly this. I will be more considerate in the future. As regards the negatives highlighted here by many posts, well I guess if you ignore it then it isn’t happening. I think that you may have been in Thailand a little too long.

[camerata]

I've already deleted one off-topic rant. From now on, let's stick to facts and personal experiences. Any more posts containing unsubstantiated derogatory remarks about monks will be deleted.

[camerata]

The problem with topics like this is that most posters don't know much about Buddhism in Thailand and fail to address the root causes of the lack of discipline. First off, most Thais joining the monkhood seem to regard it as just an occupation - they give up much of the worldly life and in exchange they are housed and fed, and act like priests performing rituals for the laity.

We rarely see any discussion of why the police allow fake monks/nuns to solicit money (a criminal offence), why abbots allow monks to break the Vinaya so blatantly, or why the Sangha doesn't do something about the whole situation.

My own theory is that the number of novices and monks has declined drastically in the past 20 years and the Sangha simply can't afford to kick any out. For lay people to be able to make merit as prescribed in the Pali Canon, there must be monks in every town and village. Thais believe that if they keep making merit in successive lives over the aeons they will eventually reach nibbana. So the whole edifice of popular Buddhism comes tumbling down if there aren't enough monks to go around.

Putting on a robe doesn't make someone a saint (or even a real monk, i.e. renunciant). If a monk thinks of himself as more or less an employee of the Sangha, he is going to break the rules as often as a regular employee steals pens or fiddles his expense account. No one should really be surprised at this.

As has been mentioned many times in this forum, there are plenty of genuine monks in Thailand, keeping the precepts and working towards enlightenment. But you don't see them because they meditating in a kuti all day.

[Richb2004v2]

I think that I am right in thinking that most, if not all, Thai men are expected to do a month or so as a monk before they are married. It is my thinking therefore that many of the saffron robed monks wandering around are quite likely just average Joe’s doing there month or so service, sitting on the park bench smoking a cigarette and talking on the mobile telephone. In which case the week before the Monk that commands so much respect may have been just the same as everyone else. Correct me if I’m wrong as this is just an assumption.

[Nip]

My experience is that quite a few of the Monks enter in order to evade the police. For eg my wife's brother is typical. A lazy git of 24. At home in KK drinking and banging anything with a heart beat. Never worked a day in his life. Lived off the money my wife and her sister sent back every month to support their mother. They stayed in a small room in BKK and after paying the utilities they lived on perhaps 1500 Baht a month. Your man got into trouble for thieving and clobbering a cop. So he had to go on the run and where did he hide out but in a temple in the North. Stayed there for 14 years. A changed man I thought? I gave him the benefit of the doubt as did his family but at what cost. He was not out a week when he had moved in with a 40 year old widow woman with loads of dosh. Then he borrows money from all the locals as he wants to start a restaurant. (He is still in the golden garb)He then out of the blue visits me missus in Krabi and asks me for 50K Baht. Show me your business plan says I.... He had none of course... So I weighed it all up and decided it was worth 10K to me to get the guy out of my life. I toyed with him also saying that if he paid back the 10K within 2 months I would give him 5K. Well this holy man has not been seen for 3 years now and only last week the local Bank took possession of his mothers land to cover a debt of 100K he had with them. He fooled his mother into signing the land over... That all said I could tell you of a farang collecting money for Tsunami Orphans on the internet and the money being lodged into his own bank account....

[camerata]

It's worth noting that sitting on park benches, smoking and talking on a cell phone are not violations of the monastic code.

As for the idea of monks being near-saints, aloof from the world and deserving of great respect, this only came about 100 years ago during the centralization of the Sangha. Previously, an abbot was a respected local monk appointed by the villagers. Monks were also local men with families in the area, so misbehaving was out of the question. During Songkran, monks would join in the fun and be doused with water (the dousers later apologizing).

In the company where I work, the young men take ordination very seriously and try to do it for 3 months. During that time they will do a special alms round at the company so their colleagues can make merit with them.

[garro]

The only time a monk has approached me for money was a guy wearing obvious fake robes. This was in a tourist area of Bangkok. It has never happened since.

A nearby temple to me is a fine example of what the monks in Thailand are capable of doing. Wat Thamkrabok offers free rehabilitation to addicts from around the world. In many cases the recipient's of the monks care and compassion have failed many expensive treatment options in the west but come to Thailand to lose their addiction forever. They are helped to recover by monks who were in many cases similarly addicted, but have now dedicated their lives to helping other addicts.

Other examples abound with monks offering to give away their knowledge of meditation and the Buddha's doctrine. They offer sanctuary to both humans and animals. They provide food to the needy and spiritual sustenance to those in need.

I know that there are many bad people in robes, but this does not give me the right to disrespect the robes which stand for something a lot bigger than a few bad monks. Any time I have given alms it does not concern me what the monk does with these alms. My part is just the giving. If people don't want to support the sangha that is fine, but I don't see the need to bleat on about it.

[Brucenkhamen]

I think that I am right in thinking that most, if not all, Thai men are expected to do a month or so as a monk before they are married. It is my thinking therefore that many of the saffron robed monks wandering around are quite likely just average Joe’s doing there month or so service, sitting on the park bench smoking a cigarette and talking on the mobile telephone. In which case the week before the Monk that commands so much respect may have been just the same as everyone else. Correct me if I’m wrong as this is just an assumption.

Yes you are right and I think that the temporary ordination and ordination of children as novices is at the root of much of the degrading of the sangha in Thailand.

The Buddha setup this institution so that those who wanted to dedicate their lives to pursue freedom from suffering aka enlightenment could do so and I think it's a tragedy that it's become more like a boot camp for louts and a prestige thing for parents. A lout in robes is still a lout, unless he's lucky enough to be ordained somewhere where they take their practice seriously and will provide him with good role models.

There are Wats where the practice is taken seriously if you care to find them, however, but I still haven't met many Thai monks who are as dedicated as farang monks.

[Richb2004v2]

My experience is that quite a few of the Monks enter in order to evade the police. For eg my wife's brother is typical. A lazy git of 24. At home in KK drinking and banging anything with a heart beat. Never worked a day in his life. Lived off the money my wife and her sister sent back every month to support their mother. They stayed in a small room in BKK and after paying the utilities they lived on perhaps 1500 Baht a month. Your man got into trouble for thieving and clobbering a cop. So he had to go on the run and where did he hide out but in a temple in the North. Stayed there for 14 years. A changed man I thought? I gave him the benefit of the doubt as did his family but at what cost. He was not out a week when he had moved in with a 40 year old widow woman with loads of dosh. Then he borrows money from all the locals as he wants to start a restaurant. (He is still in the golden garb)He then out of the blue visits me missus in Krabi and asks me for 50K Baht. Show me your business plan says I.... He had none of course... So I weighed it all up and decided it was worth 10K to me to get the guy out of my life. I toyed with him also saying that if he paid back the 10K within 2 months I would give him 5K. Well this holy man has not been seen for 3 years now and only last week the local Bank took possession of his mothers land to cover a debt of 100K he had with them. He fooled his mother into signing the land over... That all said I could tell you of a farang collecting money for Tsunami Orphans on the internet and the money being lodged into his own bank account....

That’s very similar to the experience my wife’s family had.

Edited August 4, 2008 by camerata
Comments on moderation deleted.

[JimmyTheMook]

How 'bout them Roman Catholic Priests back in Massachusetts, makes them Monks seem like Angels to me.

[Pakeha]

My wife says that around 4% of the monks are "good" monks: dedicated to improve the mind and doing so with enthousiasm and effort.

She tries to find the "good" monks and happily enough she can find them. I have therefore only good experiences with monks.

Interesting to here your stories though.

4%...? haha. That's classic. How did she come up with that figure?

[camerata]

How 'bout them Roman Catholic Priests back in Massachusetts, makes them Monks seem like Angels to me.

Anywhere you have power you are going to get abuses of power. But in Thailand it seems more like many monks don't know what they are supposed to be doing in the monkhood and the rules are simply not enforced.

[roygsd]

At the end of the day these ‘monks’ are just men in robes, Thai men in robes. Some of them are only part timers and others are probably just lazy scroungers. I have no respect for them and neither does my Thai wife or her younger family members. They have all experienced the prevalent bad side of the monks and are therefore at least qualified to take this stance.

I always wonder why people like you bother to post on the Buddhist part of the site. If Buddhism is not for you then that is fine, but why do you feel the need to post this stuff here. Have you no respect? Do you not believe that people have a right to see things differently from you? Do you feel that it is your job to educate? Will you be visiting the Muslim and Christian forums later to criticise their views?

You need to go sit under a tree and think about what you have posted above, you ask "Have you no respect"? when clearly you show no repsect yourself.

You also ask " Do you not believe that people have a right to see things differently from you"? when obviousy you dont consider that others have a right to express views that differ from your own.

As for the rest of you comments about othee religions they have absolutley F.A. to do with the opening Post, so get over it.

Your intolerance confirms what a poor example of buddhism you are.

Roy gsd .

Edited August 4, 2008 by roygsd

[garro]

At the end of the day these ‘monks’ are just men in robes, Thai men in robes. Some of them are only part timers and others are probably just lazy scroungers. I have no respect for them and neither does my Thai wife or her younger family members. They have all experienced the prevalent bad side of the monks and are therefore at least qualified to take this stance.

I always wonder why people like you bother to post on the Buddhist part of the site. If Buddhism is not for you then that is fine, but why do you feel the need to post this stuff here. Have you no respect? Do you not believe that people have a right to see things differently from you? Do you feel that it is your job to educate? Will you be visiting the Muslim and Christian forums later to criticise their views?

You need to go sit under a tree and think about what you have posted above, you ask "Have you no respect"? when clearly you show no repsect yourself.

You also ask " Do you not believe that people have a right to see things differently from you"? when obviousy you dont consider that others have a right to express views that differ from your own.

As for the rest of you comments about othee religions they have absolutley F.A. to do with the opening Post, so get over it.

Your intolerance confirms what a poor example of buddhism you are.

Roy gsd .

I don't pretend to be any example for the Buddhist religion or indeed any religion. Good luck to you.

[camerata]

Since this is going nowhere and the personal attacks have started, the topic is closed.