Crackdown On Bangkok Prostitutes

[Tippaporn]

Tippaporn...

Your message was very well written but it lacks significant logic.

It's not that my points lack logic as much as it is they appear to lack logic from your current perspective. Everything has logic given certain premises and/or knowns. Intoduce other premises and knowns and you'll find that what once appeared to have sound logic is suddenly full of holes. And oh my, do they leak unmercifully!

People once believed that the world was flat. Their beliefs were based on the assumptions and knowns of the times. People once believed that leeches were a cure for a number of maladies. Again, there was logic behind the beliefs. Countless examples abound.

We are reasoning creatures and reasoning is at all times based on logic. Beliefs are the results of conclusions drawn and are also logic based. Beliefs change throughtout history as thought constantly changes and new ideas are introduced. It's not too hard to see that the world is very much a different place today than 100 years ago, or even 10 years ago, due to ever-changing thought and ideas.

Allowance is certainly not the best solution to a problem.

At first glance I would totally agree with you. Understanding requires more than a mere cursory glance though. Just because you may not agree with a concept during it's first impact on your pysche doesn't mean that you should immediately shunt it aside without any further consideration. Be aware that you may very well hold concepts which may be quite flawed. And yet without examination and consideration of other available input they would appear to stand on very solid reasoning.

By definition a problematic situation must be resolved in order for progress to occur.

No arguments here. Although I would question progress to what end and to what purpose? Progress for the sake of progress is not enough. What is this progress to achieve? What is the intention behind the desire for progress? Where do you intend to go? Where do you want to go? In the case of prostitution perhaps the goal is to achieve a more qualitative life. Again, quality of life is purely subjective. It's definition depends on your interpretation. It all comes back down to individualism. And who will make that interpretaion and determination for all? Let the individual decide!

If quality of life translates to no-strings-attached sex with minimal expense and pleasure to boot and you can achieve this end then you would more than likely consider that your life has progressed very well according to your intentions.

Progress is relative. Relative to your desires and intentions, which are purely individualistic.

There is no progress as the situation remains. The difficulty persists with no attempt to improve.

Difficulty for who? Do you engage in prostitution? If not then where is your difficulty? Or are you attempting to shoulder perceived societal woes? In that case perhaps it would be best to keep your nose in your own backyard?

A misconception among people is that it is your responsibility to take care of the world. Which is vastly different from simply caring and upholding your vision of a better world through living your life as you intend to live it. The latter truly teaches and truly helps. The former just makes you a bug up someone's arse.

Minding your own business and your own life doesn't imply a hard-nosed, give-a-<deleted> attitude towards the rest of the world. It simply means that recognition is given to the fact that it is not your responsibility to wage war against all of the 'injustices' of the world. I would imagine that even Superman must get tired of living an eternal life fighting villians who are never-ending. There's no end to waging wars.

Where does allowance end?

To be blunt and perfectly honest it doesn't.

Should theft be allowed?

Should murder be allowed?

Should corruption be allowed?

The fact that these actions do manifest in this world is evidence that on some level they are being allowed to happen. Observation will corroborate the fact. The nightly news will suffice for me if I ever need greater evidence.

By no means do I wish to appear flippant here. I can certainly understand the concern and abhorrence that most everyone feels regarding these types of distorted behavior. And I absolutely don't condone those behaviors in the least. Nor do I condone many other forms of distorted expression.

I'll refrain from giving my interpretation of how total allowance works regarding this subject matter though. It's more in-depth than I care to go on this board. My intention is not to write a book. Also, since this subject matter is highly charged with emotion and volatile I would not attempt to provide answers to those who are not questioning. Not a wise thing to do. So I'll leave the answers to the reader's own self-discovery, whether through an exploration of the concept of allowance or by way of other means or sources.

A line must be drawn somewhere.

Anything that is dangerous to a society must be limited to some degree.

It would certainly appear so. Issues of safety and non-safety resulting in the concept of protection are at work here in reaching the above conclusions. And beneath these issues lies your idea of the extent of the control you feel you have over your experience. Face it, this world has been billed as unsafe and totally unpredictable from your first day here. You've been taught and sold on the idea that you have limited control over your experience. Anything can happen to you at any given time. No rhyme or reason need apply. Make sure you visit the doctor regularly for your check-ups.

Again, I would say you've been sold a bad bill of goods. It will take a solid effort on your part and some hard questioning to uncover the real truth of the matter. But I will provide that clue; I repeat, you've been sold a bad bill of goods. It's strictly up to you as to whether you'd like to find out for yourself whether my assertation is fact or fancy. I'll tell you what I'd bet my life on . . .

I've always found it highly ironic that people want control of their lives and yet if you were to tell them that they did have that control they would violently, and I mean violently, protest. The utter indignation people express over that idea never ceases to amaze me. Offer them the opportunity to captain their own ship and they will staunchly relegate their position to that of a leaf blowing in the wind.

People rarely have a problem with giving themselves full credit for the things that go right in their lives. Try to get them to accept responsibility for the things that go wrong and you will find yourself with a bloody battle on your hands. Take cover or run. To each their own, though. It's your life, not mine.

That decision of where to draw the limit is often difficult to make but it is a coward who refuses to make a decision and a tyrant who draws the line too strictly.

Limiting choices is drawing the line too strictly. Be brave and dare to explore other options regardless of how remote their viability appears to be initially. The coward simply refuses to do so. It's much, much easier to follow conventional patterns which, by the way, also importantly insures your acceptance among your peers. Why risk being labeled a 'kook.' It takes a great deal of courage to stand apart. Most politicians make an art of applying convention while giving appearances of 'real' results when they know they're only paying lip service.

Are you brave enough to create a brave new world? It takes more than the conventional ideas with which you're familiar with. Step off the beaten path for a change. The idea of suppression and control has been trodden on for so long and has proven countless times that it does not yield results. Think out of the box.

Should we limit the number of MacDonald restaurants that are pouring fat engorged foods into society, causing obesity, and costing society billions in medical care and productivity costs?

Should we prevent smoking for the same reasons?

What about alcohol?

Of course not. If people believe that eating McDonald's, smoking, and drinking alcohol is unhealthy yet they indulge anyway then what can you say? Is it better to deny the outlet of expression by illegalizing McDonald's and every other substance or product proven to cause ill health because people make ill-fated choices for themselves? Don't you think they'll detour to other avenues and circumvent your barricades?

It's an endless task protecting people from themselves. An impossible one, I might add. Let them learn from their mistakes, if indeed they are making mistakes. Mistakes are part and parcel of this existence so why pretend that they could ever be permanently eliminated?

Prostitution clearly damages society. I don't think that can be questioned. There are reasons that it is illegal.

Be careful of your personal judgements. Everyone will not agree with you. And YES that belief is most certainly open to question. Anything that is not etched in stone tablets is subject to questioning.

Of course there are reasons why prostitution is illegal. Some people don't like it and scream very loudly. I'm sure there are those who produce mountains of evidence to back up their convictions. Incontrovertable evidence, too. Yet there's two sides to every story. Is it true that prostitution can be detrimental? Yes. Is it true that prostitution can be rewarding and beneficial? Yes.

There are many people who would prefer to eradicate a given choice because it contains within it the potential to be destructive. Not that the choice is inherently destructive, but merely possesses the potential for harm. Of course, it also possesses the potential for joy and fulfillment.

Does prostitution alone have the capacity to be experienced as a double-edged sword? You needn't answer the obvious. So why are the negatives regarding prostitution given so much overwhelming attention when so much of life contains issues that can damage as well as benefit just the same?

The overriding reason is because value judgements surround prostitution much more so than many other issues that can be so compared similarly. Not only is it argued that prostitution is 'bad' for a variety of tangible physical reasons but it is equally argued that prostitution is 'bad' for a great variety of morale reasons.

Now tell me that a person with extremely negative moralistic views regarding prostitution isn't slightly biased? Strip away the morale arguments and I'd say proponents and opponents are on very equal footing. Oppositionists can throw out evidence of their personal negative experiences for all to view and argue that this tangible evidence cannot be denied. Quite true. Advocates can do the same just as well and also be quite true.

Your experience versus mine. Who is right and who is wrong? No one. It's not a question of right or wrong, it's a question of choice. You make yours and I'll make mine. I won't stop you from making yours and you don't stop me from making mine. You live your life without my life impinging on yours and vice versa.

That is how allowance works. Simple and beautiful.

Now, you advocate control of choices. How does that work? I'll recap. First someone needs to proclaim that they and they alone possess the proper values and morales to evaluate which choices are acceptable and not for everyone without exception and in all instances.

Next they need to convince others. Finding others who are in agreement they will join forces. Finding those in disagreement they will need to curb and control them in the name of righteousness, many times with 'God' emblazoned across their banner since they assume that God, at least their God, would most definitely be in unison with their cause. Doing so also has the added benefit of contributing greatly to the credibility of their claims of righteousness since no one is allowed to argue with or question God, or at least not their God.

Of course they'll need majority vote among the population. Campaigning may be necessary at this stage. Exaggerations and an over emphasis on negatives designed to alarm and feed on fears are usual tactics employed. Often their truths are bandied about in a way that suggests that no other truths could possibly exist. Opposing views and contrary evidence are either ignored, denied, discounted and discredited. Objectivity cannot be afforded because it could compromise and cripple your stance.

Once the opponents find themselves 'in power' they must then decide all of the rules, regulations and definitions for proper conduct and expression. Enforcement methods must be had and instituted as well as punishment for offenders.

Since no one can say exactly which individuals are in agreement with the opponents and which are not then the masses as a whole cannot be trusted. Tabs must be kept on them at all times.

I'm certainly using an extreme example to illustrate what this line of thinking entails and where it ultimately leads. Yet it's not at all an uncommon one to be found in practice just about anywhere and in regards to many other issues other than prostitution. And while I'm not delving into the entire myriad of aspects surrounding this type of reasoning the reverberations can get endlessly complex and with countless variations on the theme.

You are simply advocating amorality. In your effort not to force your values on others you are pushing for a world devoid of morals. I don't actually think you would want to live in that world. It would be chaos.

Everyone has values without exception. Therefore I make it my business to choose and live by my own and I leave you to choose and live by yours, since that is your business. I don't confuse the issues. So no, I don't believe you could ever end up with a world devoid of values. And no, I'm not pushing for anything. I'm simply providing an alternative viewpoint. Take it or leave it. Explore it or not. Either way is fine by me.

Driving in Bangkok is chaos. Yet it works, and rather well, too.

Where to draw the line? Everyone would like to draw it right below the level that they themselves can endure. Why not draw the line above you and force yourself to improve?

Improving the quality of my life as well as myself has always been a priority with me and a never-ending journey. My posts are evidence of this. Be aware that I grew up in the same world as you. I've been exposed to the same general set of mass beliefs as you. In my quest to improve myself I've learned to examine ideas and discriminantly choose rather than choosing more or less blindly. And I'm bold enough to accept and reject ideas based on their true value and worth rather than on the basis of whether or not they hold mass acceptance or approval.

Just a thought.

You've shown all good thought. And I am appreciative of it. You've expressed well excellent points, also. Be light-heartened about all of this too, as most Thais would be quick to tell you. Of all I've said pick and choose those ideas that ring true to your heart and toss the rest away. Be bold enough to explore concepts and ideas since they are not who you are and they do not define you. And above all be willing to change at any time, even to change your own opinions as often as you find necessary.

A few quotes by Mr. Franklin:

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.

All human situations have their inconveniences. We feel those of the present but neither see nor feel those of the future; and hence we often make troublesome changes without amendment, and frequently for the worse.

Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight.

Educate your children to self-control, to the habit of holding passion and prejudice and evil tendencies subject to an upright and reasoning will, and you have done much to abolish misery from their future and crimes from society.

So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable creature, since it enables one to find or make a reason for everything one has a mind to do.

Half a truth is often a great lie.

Many a long dispute among divines may be thus abridged: It is so. It is not so. It is so. It is not so.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance.

The strictest law sometimes becomes the severest injustice.

When you're finished changing, you're finished.

Where liberty is, there is my country.

Happy trails!

[britainmal]

Actually, Titporn very interesting but you went over the topic. The topic is not about morality. Uniformity or being all the same, this is why Thailand is not in good shape. Being the same bring no

creativity to the mind, which is why Thailand can't solve the poverty problem which is why the prosituiton problenm cannot be solved.

[Dradam]

I wish I had time to respond now. Unfortunately, I am really busy. I will certainly enjoy thinking about your logic once I get time free. I am sure I will agree with many things you said. I will probably disagree with much of it as well. I appreciate what you wrote however.

Look forward to reading more of your entries to come.

[stroll]

A misconception among people is that it is your responsibility to take care of the world. Which is vastly different from simply caring and upholding your vision of a better world through living your life as you intend to live it. The latter truly teaches and truly helps. The former just makes you a bug up someone's arse.

I hold the misconception of sharing responsibility for the wellbeing of others, not only by upholding my vision, but also by supporting punitive actions to limit others' "choice of experience".

I urge everybody to be "a bug up someone's arse" who buys hilltribe boys in Nothern Thailand and rents them out to western paedophiles in his villa, and also to brothel owners chaining girls to a bed and taking money for letting them be used. I also have an urge to interfere with the liberty of individuals who make it their "choice of experience" to sexually abuse underage relatives in their family or in their care in educational institutes.

[WISteve]

So the only conclusion I can come up with...

Apparently Dr John is gay and prefers not to see all those fat ugly white guys about town?

Poverty does not create prostitution.

Eliminating poverty (I dare say an impossible task) would not get rid of prostitution.

If the politicos wish to improve the well-being of prostitutes in Thailand sweeping them up for a day in Lumpini Park is hardly the correct approach. Better health care along with licensing and regulating them might be a start. Making their lives safer and giving them the same benefits as other workers would be an improvement. Chasing off the falang sex tourist simply makes them poorer.

I thought the mods didn't like us talking about Thailands dirty little secret on this forum anymore?

WISteve

[stroll]

Poverty does not create prostitution.

But it furthers recruitment of those who under different circumstances would not choose this occupation. Thailand is an illustration for this.

[Boh Bpen Yang]

Prostitution is often referred to as the oldest profession right? Stop beating yourselves up, it’s not your fault. Nor your cross to bear.

[LadyinRed]

I need the poor and needy and (also sexually) abused need more help than the prostitutes - they should set their priorities straight!

[Tippaporn]

A misconception among people is that it is your responsibility to take care of the world. Which is vastly different from simply caring and upholding your vision of a better world through living your life as you intend to live it. The latter truly teaches and truly helps. The former just makes you a bug up someone's arse.

I hold the misconception of sharing responsibility for the wellbeing of others, not only by upholding my vision, but also by supporting punitive actions to limit others' "choice of experience".

I urge everybody to be "a bug up someone's arse" who buys hilltribe boys in Nothern Thailand and rents them out to western paedophiles in his villa, and also to brothel owners chaining girls to a bed and taking money for letting them be used. I also have an urge to interfere with the liberty of individuals who make it their "choice of experience" to sexually abuse underage relatives in their family or in their care in educational institutes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to say I'll be boarding a flight back to the States for the holidays so this will be my final post for a few days (and it will be short this time).

Stroll, the plight of the world seems to bear heavily on your shoulders. I can well understand your sensitivity to so much of the worst that humankind is capable of. It is hard to comprehend at times, even more so with a belief that people are victimized, and more so still when it involves children who seem to have the least control over there lives, if any at all. It's much easier to grant adults as having control, however little you may believe they have.

For me to insist that people do have the right to make their own choices I can imagine the outrage you feel when you consider that this liberty would then also extend to the the same types of people you mention in your post. For they do not seem worthy of deserving any liberty whatsoever. Punishment would seem to be the only thing they deserved.

I will have to admit, though, that the idea of granting utter liberty to all has at it's roots other concepts. And without knowledge of these other concepts my suggestion can very well appear to be absolutely ludicrous when you try to fit that notion in among the rest of your currently held ideas. Now there's a square peg in a round hole!

You may feel so outraged at what I say that you find yourself with a strong urge to call up Dr. John so that he can crucify me in Pattaya (not for engaging in prostitution but from his writings it seems that it would be an enjoyable pastime for him nonetheless).

Consider for a moment learning all about any given subject. Generally subject matter is divided into chapters. You begin at the start, generally with an overview. As you progress in your studies it's obvious that one lesson builds upon the next. When you've finished with the course you move up to the next level.

We all know from our school days that in choosing studies prerequisite courses will need to have been taken before qualifying to sign up for certain other, more advanced courses. It's a very practical method of learning to build up your knowledge in stages. And so it is with this subject matter. But not quite so since this subject matter is so completely intertwined.

Now again, my intention is not to write a book on this board. Therefore I will not discuss related topics. The most prominent reason being the sheer depth and breadth of the subject matter. And so I will introduce only a smidgeon of concepts which relate to this topic matter.

Depending on the individual reader they can do with what I offer here as they like. They can use it as a springboard to launch themselves in another direction of thought, they can argue it, they can accept it, they can be entertained by it, they can feel nothing about it, too. But do try to keep a flexible mind!

Time to fly, but I will return.

[Tippaporn]

Stroll, just curious. Is your avatar your portrait? Mine is!

[Doctor John]

You may feel so outraged at what I say that you find yourself with a strong urge to call up Dr. John so that he can crucify me in Pattaya (not for engaging in prostitution but from his writings it seems that it would be an enjoyable pastime for him nonetheless).

                         time to fly, but I will return.  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

haha.............reminds me of the scene from ' The life of Brian '....Crucifixtion.

[Doctor John]

I hold the misconception of sharing responsibility for the wellbeing of others, not only by upholding my vision, but also by supporting punitive actions to limit others' "choice of experience".

I urge everybody to be "a bug up someone's arse" who buys hilltribe boys in Nothern Thailand and rents them out to western paedophiles in his villa, and also to brothel owners chaining girls to a bed and taking money for letting them be used. I also have an urge to interfere with the liberty of individuals who make it their "choice of experience" to sexually abuse underage relatives in their family or in their care in educational institutes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Round of Applause.

[stroll]

Stroll, just curious.  Is your avatar your portrait?  Mine is! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same, same.

Stroll, the plight of the world seems to bear heavily on your shoulders.

No, it doesn't, I just don't want it to be left behind while discussing different world views, and I'd like to know what your comments are regarding these more extreme versions of the variety of 'choices'.

For me to insist that people do have the right to make their own choices I can imagine the outrage you feel when you consider that this liberty would then also extend to the the same types of people you mention in your post. For they do not seem worthy of deserving any liberty whatsoever. Punishment would seem to be the only thing they deserved.

I consider these type of people worthy of much more than you read into my post. I am curious if and where you would draw a line, and how your understanding of 'choice' and 'will' fit into this. My queries are genuine, not just rhetoric. I do not subscribe to the 'hang 'em high' club. But I do disapprove of a range of manifestations of 'choices of experience', some so strongly that I approve the use of force to prevent or stop them. For me, as for most comments I have read here, the question is not whether prostitution should be controlled and regulated, but which areas, to what extend and how.

I will introduce only a smidgeon of concepts which relate to this topic matter.

Please do.

[kat]

If I was a poorly educated girl with no decent employment prospects and my Parents where poor and getting older, and I have watched them struggle to make a living on the farm  with very little return. and my prospects where such that I would be following them into same poverty trap.

I would be looking for a Farang!!!!

And as so many Farangs are willing to come to Thailand and buy houses for girls, buy gold, motorcycles, Pick-ups, trips abroad, good clothes, etc etc....why the fux not?

Who could blame me. 

Farangs hit the Bars when they come to Thailand, so where would I go, a library, bookshop, shoeshop, bakery............Or a Bar?

I would be looking for a Farang with money that would take care of me and my family. For that  I will stay with a man 20 - 30 years older  than me, everyones a winner.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, ok, that explains the first wave of women that snagged a farang to better her circumstances, but it doesn't explain how her daughters are then looking to enter the market. Where exactly has shel pulled herself up? A credit card is not exactly a lasting model of development, especially when it's in someone else's name.

Stroll, just curious.  Is your avatar your portrait?  Mine is! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

His avatar is not a portrait unless he is William Burroughs, which would be physically if not philosophically impossible.

[Pattayaguy1999]

Yes, ok, that explains the first wave of women that snagged a farang to better her circumstances, but it doesn't explain how her daughters are then looking to enter the market. Where exactly has shel pulled herself up? A credit card is not exactly a lasting model of development, especially when it's in someone else's name.

I think it comes down to choices. I am not talking about the forced brothels, but the freelancers that move from their towns to BKK, Pattaya, etc. As long as the Thai wage system is so much less than a lady can make in the bar scene or hooking, then a certain number will choose prostitution. That is just the way the world works. A daughter of a former bar girl will still look at her choices on earning a living and may choose the sex industry. As long the girl is over 18, then it is her right to choose what profession to enter.

[Doctor John]

The day all men decide that they do not want to pay for sex anymore, that is the day prostitution will end.

It will never happen.

[Tippaporn]

The day all men decide that they do not want to pay for sex anymore, that is the day prostitution will end.

It will never happen.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Women would certainly have a choice in the matter, too. I would say that there are women who, given other choices, would still prefer the trade. Lots of nymphs in the world, too. But, if all the men stop paying for it, and then it's free, would you still call it prostitution?

Or would it simply be picking a girl up at the bar for a one-nighter?

[Doctor John]

But, if all the men stop paying for it, and then it's free, would you still call it prostitution?

Or would it simply be picking a girl up at the bar for a one-nighter?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would be picking up someone and having sex without paying them.

Just like millions of normal people all over the world do.

[Doctor John]

Tippaporn, you are back in the States now ?

Whats the going rate for a Hooker strung out on Crack over there?

Just curious.

And when are you coming back to Thailand ?

[stumonster]

Or would it simply be picking a girl up at the bar for a one-nighter?

and not buying her a drink... cause its a fine line you tread

[Ijustwannateach]

I think that a realistic approach to prostitution is to acknowledge it's going to happen. All you do by prohibiting it is put more money in the pockets of the criminals who "protect" the industry without regulating it and leave the girls/boys open to exploitation rather than education.

An enlightened approach to prostitution in the developed world would take the money away from the pimps and criminals and rechannel it into educating the prostitutes to protect themselves and plan for the future:

1. Require prostitutes' licenses (issued on credit if necessary) guaranteeing legal age with monthly medical checkup stamps. The fees for the license would fund the checkups. The license would also enable the prostitute's income to be taxed for government revenue and for the future social security of the prostitute.

2. Require special managerial licenses and rules for brothels or call-escort agencies, once again maintaining industry-minimum standards of ethics and health- and taxing them.

3. Give prostitutes union rights and provide certain social services, including education about the limited shelf-life of a prostitute and various options for education/saving for a transition into a more mainstream lifestyle. Perhaps in recognition of the short career prospects, they could be allowed one tax-shelter "retirement" account for the duration of their life as prostitutes.

4. With occupational legitimacy, social services from NGOs or government could have better access to the prostitutes to educate and communicate with them. Among the points to be addressed for the younger workers:

a. Prostitution is a short-term career. You MUST think and save in terms of the future.

b. It is highly unlikely that you meet any real lover or husband among your clients. If you still have this fantasy you should abandon it.

c. Safe sex is not a choice- it is a requirement. Double the money is not a satisfactory payment for risking your life.

d. Physical abuse is criminal and should be reported.

Although I'm thinking in terms of a western bureaucracy in writing this, there are many elements which would be just as applicable to Thailand.

"Steven"

[Crushdepth]

I'm suprised this thread is still going. You lot are putting a lot more time and effort into this than the government ! Having got a couple of press releases and photos out, the government 'crackdown' is now *over*.

(Until next time).

[Enforcer]

The expats are doing a marvelous job as are the guys that holiday and take one back.

[taxexile]

there is nothing wrong with prostitution , i believe it to be an honourable profession when carried out professionally and discreetly , as anyone who has enjoyed the delights of the properly run brothels of mayfair and paris and indeed bangkok will i'm sure concur.

what riles the middle and upper class thais who like to control society here so much is the in your face attitude of foriegners who parade about with prostitutes on their arms for all to see.

hypocrisy....... sure it is....... but that is the thai way...... if you cant see it then it doesnt exist and it is therefore not a problem. but that is the thai way and it is not for us to re-program their psyche.

thais find it offensive to witness the nightly parades up and down the country , if it was kept at a more discrete level there would be no problem.

i believe zoning and legalisation to be the way forward.

and as for those who pity the poverty struck hooker , well the lumpini girls may be short of a bob or two but most of the girls that do business with falangs are not that hard up , and if their spending were less frivolous and their gambling less frenzied then they would be wealthy enough to get out.

but for most of them it's easy money and too much fun when compared with the alternatives. the clever and lucky ones will find husbands who will take them out of the bars.

[RDN]

there is nothing wrong with prostitution ...... most of the girls that do business with falangs are not that hard up , and if their spending were less frivolous and their gambling less frenzied then they would be wealthy enough to get out.

but for most of them it's easy money and too much fun when compared with the alternatives. the clever and lucky ones will find husbands who will take them out of the bars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some very good comments - my g/f asked a bar-girl friend of hers why she didn't find just one farang and settle down (because she often has 2 or 3 'customers' in one night), and she said it was easy money, good fun to get pissed, and "sometimes I come."

[plachon]

The ONLY way to eliminate prostitution is to have every men's dick chopped off!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't worry, there's a TAT "painter" working on that. He'll even helpfully throw the missing member in the canal for the ducks, to make sure there's no chance of reattachment.

[chonabot]

and "sometimes I come."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She must be one of my past conquests I'll wager.....

[Tippaporn]

Tippaporn, you are back in the States now ?

Whats the going rate for a Hooker strung out on Crack over there?

Just curious. 

And when are you coming back to Thailand ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dr. John, yeah, I'm back in the States (boo-hoo-hoo). But only until the New Year.

Can't say for sure about the price of a strung out hooker, but let me know how serious you are about 'hooking' up with one and I'll get you a quote, 55555555!

It would be picking up someone and having sex without paying them.

Just like millions of normal people all over the world do.

I take it you're one of the rare normal people in the world. That would make me Abby Normal (reminds me of a scene from 'Young Frankenstein'). Hmm, you think I should change my user name?

[Tippaporn]

Stroll, the plight of the world seems to bear heavily on your shoulders.

No, it doesn't, I just don't want it to be left behind while discussing different world views, and I'd like to know what your comments are regarding these more extreme versions of the variety of 'choices'.

Not sure if you misinterpreted something I wrote but there are no 'degrees' of choices. Choices simply are. There are no choices which are higher or lower than other choices, nor are any choices good or bad. You will, however, make your own value judgement and deem the worthiness of any given choice as it relates to your own individual preferences.

For me to insist that people do have the right to make their own choices I can imagine the outrage you feel when you consider that this liberty would then also extend to the the same types of people you mention in your post. For they do not seem worthy of deserving any liberty whatsoever. Punishment would seem to be the only thing they deserved.

I consider these type of people worthy of much more than you read into my post. I am curious if and where you would draw a line, and how your understanding of 'choice' and 'will' fit into this. My queries are genuine, not just rhetoric. I do not subscribe to the 'hang 'em high' club. But I do disapprove of a range of manifestations of 'choices of experience', some so strongly that I approve the use of force to prevent or stop them. For me, as for most comments I have read here, the question is not whether prostitution should be controlled and regulated, but which areas, to what extend and how.

I'm happy to see that you allow some leniency in terms of crediting these types of people with inherent individual rights, if I interpret that statement correctly.

I would not draw a line. My personal decision comes from an understanding of what free will is and how it operates in this world. And at the basis of an understanding of free will is the knowledge of who I truly am. That definition, if it could ever be neatly defined, includes much, much more than the corporeal, egotistical portion of myself which is readily perceiveable through the focus I mainly assume in this world.

Again, this discussion, as with any discussion where you begin to delve underneath the surface issue, automatically leads elsewhere. And always, unerringly, to the same place. To questions which are much deeper and for which there are no definitive answers if the answers must be made tangible in a physical existence.

Who are you really?

What are you doing here?

What's the purpose of this life?

Is existence eternal or fleeting, confined to a single experience?

If eternal, where were you before you were born?

Where will you find yourself after physical 'death?'

Is this world an island unto itself, or are there open and existing connections beyond this world?

Who or what orchestrates this world? We obviously don't concern ourselves with the rising and the setting of the sun, so who does?

And what is this thing called free will? Do we have it or are we merely puppets on a string?

How much control do we have over our experience? None, little, or complete?

If complete, then how, specifically, do we make our lives 'happen?'

If complete, then how do billions of people and other life forms coexist, interact, while each is creating for themselves alone?

Where do I end and you begin in my life?

What is death? It's obviously an irrefutable condition of life, so what's it's purpose? And what's all the cryin' shame about it for, then?

What is suffering? Why is there such a thing?

Is life fair, or is it simply a cruel joke?

Do answers exist to these questions? And are they available to each individual?

I'll mercifully stop here. One point I'm making by fielding the above questions is that there are no definitive answers which can be tangibly held in your hands, to be shown to another with the expectation of the other coming to complete agreement with you.

Another point I'll make is that you will be hard-pressed in any attempt to truly understand this world while the above questions cannot be correctly answered by you. Oh, you will have your own 'answers.' But your answers will only be what you think are the correct answers. No problem. You will play them out in life and find out for yourself whether or not they have true validity. And whether or not your 'answers' are based on faulty premises.

My mind is racing, thinking how I could go off on a million different tangents from here. Again, I don't intend to write a book. Besides, they've all been written already. And while this discussion has evolved out of the particular topic of this thread it has now digressed to the point where the original topic has become unrecognizable. So, I will cease to take this any further. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to continue.

I will introduce only a smidgeon of concepts which relate to this topic matter.

Please do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe I have. Maybe more than to anyone's liking!

Happy trails, and may you choose the trails with heart! Be light, take it easy, don't work too hard at this. Jai yen yen and mai pen rai.

[ProfessorFart]

Correct Pvt Dick. The Thais were humping hookers a long time before Westerners came to do it there.

A classic example of an un informed 'missionary' type of post by Filipos who if my eyes don't decive me is a troll.