Should The UK Extradite Thaksin To Face The Thai Courts?

[Plus]

His defence would be barred from calling any witnesses who had benefited from a backhander. Military figures would refuse to co operate.....in short it would be a kangaroo court organised by a lynch mob.

Absoulte nonsense.

You obvously haven't followed the Rathcada court hearings, or any court hearings at all.

[Prakanong]

""give them some time", yes, tell that to the PAD. Or maybe you don't mean that the current elected government should be given time?"

Yeah - like anything is going to change - we have only the track record of venal corrupt politicains to go by and it will be more of the same.

If its a half decent guy like Leepak/Abhasit they will be trodden all over and be most ineffectual - the same snouts will still be at the trough from the top to the bottom.

Some posters here need to put Thaksin in a wider context and learn a bit if thai history - he was really just more of the same with populism thrown in.

[sjaak327]

Younghusband is right. If Taksin were to go on trial it is obvious he would not get a fair trial as recognised in the west. This is an undeniable FACT ! His defence would be barred from calling any witnesses who had benefited from a backhander. Military figures would refuse to co operate.....in short it would be a kangaroo court organised by a lynch mob. All of the crimes laid against Taksin have been commited by legions of other leading politicians and the military govournments have on several occasions sanctioned the shooting of pro democracy demonstrators. None of them have been called to account. No, you put your hand in the till, grab what you can then step aside for the next bent politician to have his turn. This sort of corruption runs right through to village level..its nothing new. Taksin is not being castigated for his crooked business practices which are the norm rather than the exception, nor his human rights abuses. His cardinal sin was to threaten the ' old school '. His off the cuff remarks about having certain VERY influential people in his pocket sewed the seeds of his own demise. These things cannot be discussed on ThaiVisa....much less talked about openly or dragged through the courts.

Ecxellent post and I couldn't agree more, an exact and fair account of what is going on. Almost like the voice of reason through all the riff raff on this thread.

Going on along those lines, I guess the very fact that the Thai legal system isn't in good books back in Europe (and I am putting this mildly), will probably be a reason for the UK to not extradite either of them.

[cmsally]

In a way we are back to the status quo. But also remember if you are putting this all into the context of Thai politics, how far do you want to go back. To be relevant you have to bring up issues from before I was born and put them in a twenty first century setting. That is an almost impossible thing to predict. Pre and post Taksin is pretty much irrelevant, you have to look back much farther than that.

[Jingthing]

Going on along those lines, I guess the very fact that the Thai legal system isn't in good books back in Europe (and I am putting this mildly), will probably be a reason for the UK to not extradite either of them.

Then why bother maintaining the extradition treaty between the two countries? Correct me if I am wrong, but if Thaksin's asylum appeal is rejected AND Thailand requests his extradition, does the UK really have any reasonable choice but to extradite him, to honor the treaty?

Edited August 13, 2008 by Jingthing

[Prakanong]

"Going on along those lines, I guess the very fact that the Thai legal system isn't in good books back in Europe (and I am putting this mildly), will probably be a reason for the UK to not extradite either of them."

Yeah he can just point to his pal Chalerms son's case.

Shot a policeman in a crowded disco in front of dozens of witnesses. Did a runner for awhile. Came back and found not guilty as people all had amnesia and did not see a thing.

Then he could go for the Kanxchanaburi case where two Brtis were shot.

Kirsty Young could be brought up as well - British coppers have the DNA of the Thai copper but he was moved out of the reach of the law

The list is endless

[Prakanong]

Going on along those lines, I guess the very fact that the Thai legal system isn't in good books back in Europe (and I am putting this mildly), will probably be a reason for the UK to not extradite either of them.

Then why bother maintaining the extradition treaty between the two countries? Correct me if I am wrong, but if Thaksin's asylum appeal is rejected AND Thailand requests his extradition, does the UK really have any reasonable choice but to extradite him, to honor the treaty?

Well he would have to prove he would not get a fair trial, its politically motivated and that its not a crime in the UK I think)

You do not get an automatic extradition unless you acquiece to it - you can fight it on a number of grounds.

Just because there is a treaty in place does not mean it an automatic rendition - this is not American rules hee using the fear of terrorism - we have due process in the UK ;-)

[baanthale]

""give them some time", yes, tell that to the PAD. Or maybe you don't mean that the current elected government should be given time?"

Yeah - like anything is going to change - we have only the track record of venal corrupt politicains to go by and it will be more of the same.

If its a half decent guy like Leepak/Abhasit they will be trodden all over and be most ineffectual - the same snouts will still be at the trough from the top to the bottom.

Some posters here need to put Thaksin in a wider context and learn a bit if thai history - he was really just more of the same with populism thrown in.

You are probably right, not much will change, but I prefer a bad elected government over a new coup any day of the week!

[bunnaag]

what is wrong with letting him stay in SPLENDID ISOLATION forever?

[Jingthing]

what is wrong with letting him stay in SPLENDID ISOLATION forever?

Ummm. Justice?

[bunnaag]

justice would be served because is there a worse punishment?

[younghusband]

His defence would be barred from calling any witnesses who had benefited from a backhander. Military figures would refuse to co operate.....in short it would be a kangaroo court organised by a lynch mob.

Absoulte nonsense.

You obvously haven't followed the Rathcada court hearings, or any court hearings at all.

To be fair I thought the conduct of the Ratchada case was fair in most respects and as the estimable George Morgan pointed out in his letter to The Nation this morning the extradition issue is more complicated than I had thought (for various UK reasons which have nothing to do with Thailand.) Nevertheless somehow I can't see this going down the line not least because of the embarassment of having Thailand's dirty laundry being washed in a British court.Who knows there might even be reference to the puzzle of how people like Sondhi and Surayud became multi millionaires on a soldier's paltry salary.

On another subject and excuse the digression it's fascinating how evidence is energing that the reports of a Thaksinite mob attacking Prem's residence seem to be a pack of lies generated by military censors and passed over by a dopey press corps.Details at Bangkok Pundit.

[Prakanong]

"having Thailand's dirty laundry being washed in a British court.Who knows there might even be reference to the puzzle of how people like Sondhi and Surayud became multi millionaires on a soldier's paltry salary."

The dirty laundry issue has not been raised - good one

If allegations in certain books are true a lot might just come out about all sorts of people in very high places - he would be finished forever in Thailand though along with his family

[cmsally]

There is no way I can see this going through the British courts.

Quite a good speech extract/ article here:

Thai Politics beyond 2006 coup

Thought it summed up the generalities quite well.

Another I found by Shawn Crispin (Asia Times), but maybe best not to post on here.

I think finally the answer is that the est. in Thailand most likely (certainly) does not want Thaksin back. The last thing they want is Bangkok under siege and Thaksin taking on the role as some kind of martyr. They would rather have him away in some foreign land "out of sight, and out of mind" and get on with business as usual.

[Crushdepth]

Firstly Thaksin ( Mr) HAS NOT YET BEEN CONVICTED OF ANY CRIME, consequetly as yet he is not a wanted criminal.

He DIDN'T SHOW UP TO COURT, hence there is a warrant for his arrest.

[Prakanong]

There is no way I can see this going through the British courts.

Quite a good speech extract/ article here:

Thai Politics beyond 2006 coup

Thought it summed up the generalities quite well.

Another I found by Shawn Crispin (Asia Times), but maybe best not to post on here.

I think finally the answer is that the est. in Thailand most likely (certainly) does not want Thaksin back. The last thing they want is Bangkok under siege and Thaksin taking on the role as some kind of martyr. They would rather have him away in some foreign land "out of sight, and out of mind" and get on with business as usual.

They might have visions of returning home al la the Acquino's though - without the shooting of course - when political events take a turn as they inevitably will - how old are his opponents

He should put that to rest in tacit agreement never to return and no extradition

[Plus]

On another subject and excuse the digression it's fascinating how evidence is energing that the reports of a Thaksinite mob attacking Prem's residence seem to be a pack of lies generated by military censors and passed over by a dopey press corps.Details at Bangkok Pundit.

I'm not sure you can call it "emerging evidence", rather lame attempt to ignore the brutality of UDD attack and blame the police, even captions don't match what's in the images. "Citizen journalism" at its worst.

Don't forget that "alternative view" video was distributed by UDD right after the incindent, there's nothing new about it.

[younghusband]

On another subject and excuse the digression it's fascinating how evidence is energing that the reports of a Thaksinite mob attacking Prem's residence seem to be a pack of lies generated by military censors and passed over by a dopey press corps.Details at Bangkok Pundit.

I'm not sure you can call it "emerging evidence", rather lame attempt to ignore the brutality of UDD attack and blame the police, even captions don't match what's in the images. "Citizen journalism" at its worst.

Don't forget that "alternative view" video was distributed by UDD right after the incindent, there's nothing new about it.

Hmm you certainly seem to have made up your mind," brutality of UDD attack" etc.Nick Nostitz who you traduce has a good reputation for for integrity and I doubt he is aligned one way or the other.If you are content with military goons sitting in newspaper offices censoring coverage of events -and apparently you are- not much more to be said.

[Plus]

It's true, I've made up my mind, right after the event. Why would anyone want to revisit this topic now and try to rewrite what happened?

And this stuff about military goons completly censoring coverage of a staged up event is just <deleted>. Even by conspiracy theory standards it's plain ridiculous.

[hammered]

On another subject and excuse the digression it's fascinating how evidence is energing that the reports of a Thaksinite mob attacking Prem's residence seem to be a pack of lies generated by military censors and passed over by a dopey press corps.Details at Bangkok Pundit.

I'm not sure you can call it "emerging evidence", rather lame attempt to ignore the brutality of UDD attack and blame the police, even captions don't match what's in the images. "Citizen journalism" at its worst.

Don't forget that "alternative view" video was distributed by UDD right after the incindent, there's nothing new about it.

Hmm you certainly seem to have made up your mind," brutality of UDD attack" etc.Nick Nostitz who you traduce has a good reputation for for integrity and I doubt he is aligned one way or the other.If you are content with military goons sitting in newspaper offices censoring coverage of events -and apparently you are- not much more to be said.

As I tried to mostly argue at the time the thing about any demonstration where violence occurs is how the PR war is won or lost. The government at the time seem to have won that arguement with local and international media. That of course is not to say it is the truth. It may or may not be. It is interesting to see it revisited over at Pundit and on Mandala and will no doubt raise the usual arguements, and amongst us politcal junkies and maybe wannabe historians I am sure is an interesting addition. However the episode in terms of public perception is probably long dead as the news cycle has moved on many times, and I am sure as much as I personally dont want to be that we should actually now be utterly fixated on whether Thaksin will be extradited or not plus a little affected by the plight of the poor Georgian president (ignoring the fact he started the war) or having Phelpsomania or whatever else the media decides we should be thinking about today.

Now what movie was it with the line "lets see what lies they are telling us today"?

[Samuian]

I believe that, whatever he will NOT give up or in soon and easily, much too much to lose - especially those massive blisters on his poor little soul!

At least he will be out for revenge ... for the time being!

Haven't seen the nasty bit of him yet!

Anybody really believes he will get his major assets frozen, persecuted, threatened with jail, his wife, his family name.... the fortune they ammassed - he will just let go?

I don't think so -I can be wrong though...

[sriracha john]

Nick Nostitz who you traduce has a good reputation for for integrity

yes, he is honest...

"I am not such a good journalist."

- Nick Nostitz, in an interview by Stickman

[jitagon]

Who said this?

Samuiman quote:

But I get the impression that finally the judicial system may start to follow up HRH advice and keep doing what they started, but being hampered in their efforts to bring people to justice - because of the crony-system!

Times may change, let wait and see - we are the observers here, observe and enjoy the show unfolding!

So far it looks pretty good!

has a "grand dame" of any politician ever been tried before?

Have ever been such questions asked?

Was there ever been a genuine assets examining agency?

Maybe we will have the chance of becoming the witnesses of some assertive action and change here in the Kingdom of Thailand!

But, Please give'em some time!

End Quote:

I agree with this. There's a lot of, very understandably, cynical posting regarding the small steps the Thais are making to clean up their act. I'm heartened by the positive effect the sentencing of Pojaman has had on spouse. I think we should not be too quick to dismiss these small steps to make politicians accountable. The banner above PAD reads 'Hai Prethet Thai Dee Keun' - 'Make Thailand Better', and in their using nationalism to this aim or not, well, it's only what Taksin did when he first came into power. Or have all the farang here forgotten how he whipped up nationalist fervour in this smoke and mirrors style of politiking?

[Ianatlarge]

I think that Mr and Mrs T should go on trial for corruption—along with every politician who has ever taken or given a bribe, every bureaucrat who asked/demanded money for doing their job, every police officer who levied an illegal 'fine'.

Just think what a quiet, peaceful place Thailand would be with all these people in jail !

[Plus]

Or maybe it will be one big jail.

[thaigene2]

"Then all the corrupt bureaucrats and 'connected' familes can have their little feudal fiefdoms back - and all will return to normal. I reckon that's where it will all lead. "

<snip>

As someone pointed out - the Philippines may be the model Thailand is heading towards.

Yeah well that was me too. From the Economist - a hardcopy of which I bought here in Thailand and quoted from - it wasn't 'banned' thoguh the Mods deleted it which is their right to do of course..

Anyway, Noting most of the above posts - isn't it interesting how all the the anti-thaksin-anti-one-man-one-vote types have just melted way?? Why then, don't they care any longer?

Yea-gads, man! Back to the golden spoons, eh? Must have been hard labour for them...what? The world's been set right. Those with bureaucratic connections shall continue to send their sons and daughters abroad - whilst daddy buys a new Benz. Thaksin - anti-christ that he is..

Where's my coloured t-shirt? Time to remember what's important..

Edited August 14, 2008 by thaigene2

[Bagwan]

There has been a few snide remarks in this thread about the UK harbouring criminals. Anybody care to make a guestimate about the number of UK Nationals who would not welcome being contacted by one of the UK's regulatory or law enforcement organisations? What percentage of the farang population is squeaky clean?