Fire Breaks Out At Residence Of Auditor General Jaruwan

[Scott]

And in this case, it should be fairly straightforward. Costs can be accounted for or closely estimated and whether that money would likely be available to her given her salary, husband's salary and family's wealth could be pretty easy to establish. A house the size of hers really doesn't indicate much of anything. Yes, it's big, but it's not out of the realm of explainability.

[TAWP]

Apart from the fact that they keep quoting a fantasy number tossed out by one of her enemies...

[Samuian]

Why to throw up the dirt if there is NO evidence!?

Exactly. People slinging mud at somebody do so because they have an agenda. They know that something will stick even if there is no evidence. It's a game that's being played all the time in politics, not just in Thailand.

Sure, and funny to see that even some us "ever smart" expats, are bending fartoo much over the railings and cry "foul play" much too fast!

Isn't "innocent until proven guilty!" one of the major rules in all or most of the "civilizations" we come from?

Maybe Thailand as many other countries on this planet do have some honest people with "old money"... maybe I don't know, but I don't want to become her self proclaimed judge either!

[younghusband]

Thanks Plachon for that summary of early Thaksin days which was interesting if not very relevant to the discussion.If arson charges can be proved then those criminals should of course be punished.I think for me anyway this thread has run its course.But if you will permit me I would like to stress again that my main purpose was to emphasize how the culture of corruption is endemic among Thai public officials and senior miltary officers.It's built into the system as one can see from the fantastically high entrance fees (several years annual salary!) for civil servants who join the Royal Bangkok Sports Club.Jaruvan has some explaining to do not least because in her position she has to be pristine.In the past she has stated she has been offered bribes but has refused to say by whom or initiate follow up (itself an offence actually).There are also charges that she owns large areas of land near her house under members of her family names.This isn't a Thaksin related issue at all though it does throw the hypocrisy of the elite into sharp relief.If Jaruvan is able to prove there is nothing untoward nobody would be more pleased than me.But the unanswered questions remain.

[Samuian]

........ I would like to stress again that my main purpose was to emphasize how the culture of corruption is endemic among Thai public officials and senior miltary officers.It's built into the system as one can see from the fantastically high entrance fees (several years annual salary!) for civil servants who join the Royal Bangkok Sports Club.Jaruvan has some explaining to do not least because in her position she has to be pristine.In the past she has stated she has been offered bribes but has refused to say by whom or initiate follow up (itself an offence actually).There are also charges that she owns large areas of land near her house under members of her family names.This isn't a Thaksin related issue at all though it does throw the hypocrisy of the elite into sharp relief.If Jaruvan is able to prove there is nothing untoward nobody would be more pleased than me.But the unanswered questions remain.

Well, I think regarding this particular touchy topic one has to go back a long way to understand the "Quantum - Mechanics" of Thai Society!

As it was for a long period (~550 years) a paternal feudal system with the king as the absolut ruler and father of his family (Nation) he had the need to "look" after his kinsfolk, some had to look after themselves and feed the rest!

It might be for the 21.Century Farang Community hard to grasp, but there is a deep implemented "Receivership-thinking", as the supreme ruler need troops to defend the lands and himself what better then to have them as a "part" of the family wealth!

As I recall correctly it was standing tradition that high ranking army officers received Titles (Nai Pan - Pan Rai - if I am correct) which entitled them to own large pieces of crown land or some thing like this, the same was with employees in public office.

It hasn't been abolished in Europe for too long, but long enough for most of us to remember!

Here a short textwhich hopefully will give some insight:

" The Siamese government is run by a monarchy with a strong patriarchal nature. Even though the Siamese had a strong character of kingship developing, the old feudal system continued to survive until 1431. In 1431, the feudal system finally collapsed when King Paramaric II captured the Khmer capital, Ankor Thom, and made the Siamese society free. The first free Siamese kingdom society resembled a large family under the paternal rule of its king. This king, who was seen as the father of his people, combined all the issuses of the governement as functions of his position. This resulted in a growth of the feudal organization, inspired by the bond of territory overpowering the bond of kinship.

As a result of this combination of power, the Siamese administrative system evolved from it's previously primitive, undifferentiated feudal form held since the 13th century. The accompanying metamorphosis of the nobles into an official class and the highly complex system thus brought into being was characterized by the formation of many functionally differentiated government departments. The Siamese culture has social differentiation but it seems to stop at class. There are seven main classes in the Siamese culture; they are in descending order: the Royal Family, the Officials, the Freeman, the Monks, the Brahmans, the slaves and the foreigners. The Siamese culture is extremely religious, the main religion being Buddhism. Thus, a strong bond between church and state is supported. As Prince Damrong remarked long ago, “the outlook for the future of the Siamese should be bright, for they have three great national characteristics .” They are (1.) the Love of National Independence which has allowed them to weather the gravest political storms and maintain their autonomy alone among the nations of south-eastern Asia, (2.) Toleration of the religions and of the customs of the foreigners who have enjoyed the hospitality of their friendly land, and (3.) the Power of Assimilation which has led them in the earlier days to adopt those features of the Indian and Khmer cultures that better suited their needs."

"Most of the land was formerly held on a semi-feudal tenure, the farming population being kept in practical serfdom, and compelled to work at forced labor during portions of the year. This system of debt-slavery which formerly prevailed, by which millions of debtors in bondage to creditors were branded with the seal or mark of their owners, is now radically modified, and is in course of extinction. "

Source:

And thus it has dragged on through society and especially the "ruling class" understandably didn't wont to let go - till today!

So it is in this class widely NOT understood as corruption but as "Privileges" to take/get what one thinks is fit enough compensation for their status and rank!

LITERATURE. Crawfurd's Embassy to Siam, London, 1628; Pallogoix, Description du Royaune Thai, Paris, 1854; Bowring's Kingdom and People of Siam, London, 1857; Leonowen's An English Governess at the Court of Siam, Boston, 1870; Vincent's Land of the White Elephant, New York, 1874; Diplomatic Correspondence of the United States, 1868.

This why there has been mention of "ill gotten gains" or "personal gains", look at the Themasek deal till then it was rather quiet, but then one assumed to be one of "us", sold a large piece of what was believed to be "Thai" to a foreign Company.. and we see the results unraveling.

Well there is of course much, much more to explore about this particular, peculiar situation in Thai-Customs and Society, may be some more readers are fit to help and throw some more light onto this rather interesting topic.

Edited August 15, 2008 by Samuian

[cloudhopper]

Excellent! Thanks for that one Samuian.

[Samuian]

Code of Conduct in Thai Society in the 21. Century

As a foreigner to Thai Society (Asian Societies!) one may be quickly tempted to cry "wolf!".

But this only displays the western ignorance, towards a patronage system which has established over Centuries, as a means to support, protect society, for it's survival in general and finally to ensure the unchallenged ruler ship of the very top of the pyramid, the royal family.

Large chunks of Land, of the country given to high ranking Army personnel, smaller to lesser, it meant to have them tied to the defense of "their" land, as well of the entire country, which was by these means "tied" together and the "side effect" of the Royal Families support in both ways, well being, security, safety and last not least their survival.

A "give & take for service" system did build up, which had a clear cut pyramid system and has survived well into our times.

Now and here a problem surfaces, caused by "Globalization". As Members on all levels of Thai Society, literate or illiterate, can deal with this system easily, foreigners find it hard to come to terms with the "take for service", or "take and give" system.

As the Societies of Europe and the "new World" have widely abandoned any kind of Patronage System and replaced it with laws and clear cut guidelines, labor laws, like fixed tariffs, labor unions to support the laborers rights, etc. things like "kickbacks" are frowned upon in western Societies, as "taking advantage", or "Corruption" are perceived as illegal and made subject to criminal punishment.

Some of the European Societies did write these new laws entirely in blood, it has "cost" some dearly and this is certainly one major reason, why members of western societies take these hard fought for values - freedom, liberty, equality and citizenship, the right to vote, to choose a government, the representatives there of, so serious and started to look down on to anything different then the "civilized" Values, as backwards, inferior, undeveloped, uncivilized!

Just look at the wide and far excepted system of "Mia Luang" and "Mia Noi" (etc.) in western Societies unthinkable, not to mention the wide acceptance within Society fabric, even here one can detect the pyramid system!

The Dukes and Counts of my Home Country, Germany had well into the 19th Century besides many weird "Rights", the "right of the first night"! Which meant that if a "Inferior" (Slave) wanted to marry he had to offer his Superior his "chosen one" first - failure to do so, punishable by death!

One may look at the greeting, the "Wai" it's a subtle introduction to the standing of one another within the pyramid and a possibility for the "lower" to honor the "nobler" one of higher standings and/or rank!

That is why a common proverb is: "It doesn't matter what you know, it matters who you know!"

Between lower educated people from the rural areas, the pheasant, famers and laborers, it is deeply ingrained to serve the master, the "Poo Yai", whoever this might be!

They will be as loyal as possible, they will work from sunrise till sunset for 2 meals and a wage that can be compared to tipping, no matter how wealthy the Individual is they are working for, usually they are entitled to accommodation, land for gardening, raising some small crops and the like, as well.

Reminiscent of the old Patronage System, still spread over all levels in today's Thai Society.

This is why, it is for most Thai People simply hard to grasp that they are doing something wrong in expecting and receiving "kickbacks", it is widely conceived to be "normal", the salary, if there is one, is 'only' the basic compensation for survival, for the "rest" and the welfare of the family (Clan), each Individual had to look for himself.

What someone could make out of his/her position/employment/job within Society that was to generate the real income, the broader base for ones life and his/her families needs!

So "taking advantage" or being "corrupt" as we understand and label this behavior, is in Thai Society not perceived as it is by foreigners in general.

Here the line of friction opens its gap, of "Farang mai kaojai!"

That is why people will take money from people wishing to be elected and think nothing of it, this is why people will easily slip a certain amount of money in to the hands of an official, simply to show him that he honors his position and in the hope to speed/smoothen up things a bit, because then one can very well expect the gratitude of the official/s.

It is "tam boon" for the people, for society, a long time important part of the "Quantum-Mechanics" of Thai Society, it is health care, social security... name it, the very basic of the fabric of society.

There is/was the tradition of "the right of the mat", if an official comes to visit the village, he will be taken care of and given at least one (young) female to "take care" of his needs!

Widely abandoned as of today, but I can remember that a couple of years ago this behavior kindled a scandal and an senior official had to take the consequences and quit his government post, not sure if he was even send to jail.

Only 76 years ago Society or a small elite part of it, decided to take things into their own hands and started to grab for the power, a coup and resulting "democratization" of Thai Society was jump started.

Now if one looks at the age of the present Prime Minister and the average age of many other Members of the Government, ruling class and society, one may understand that he/them has/have grown up with a father, mother, family, common values which are woven in a pattern exactly reflecting the "old fabric of Thai society"!

Much has happened, much has changed, but the old "social security", "give and receive" system is very hard to get out of Thai, to be fair, out of many other Asian societies Fabrics.

It is a process, a long drawn process, I believe the members of these societies are slowly getting adjusted to "the new world order" and try, may be hard, may be not hard enough, but it is a challenge, challenging the very core of a society for change and this wont be accomplished in a couple of years, and certainly can't be wavered in, by a court order!

They, in this case the Thai people, will work it out themselves, this needs time, understanding and support, not having the "we know better finger" pointed at them, as a basically non-confrontational society, they will find the Farangs behavior difficult to comprehend!

But still, we are welcome here!

[Plus]

I said earlier that Jaruwan's credit line is nearly unlimited, with the right banks, of course.

They are not looking at her payslips for the past twelve months to decide whether to approve her application or not.

One other thing is that the house is being built, it's not bought from a developing company - she doesn't have to appply for the loan to cover the full price, she can take loans in stages, and the building can take years if she comes short now and then.

50 million is quite a high price, last year I remember the most expensive houses sold by developers were only 80 mil, the project (somewhere in Ramkhamhaneg) was all over property pages. Everytime there's a big sale like that it makes into the media. The all time record was 150 mil, I think.

I don't belive Jaruwan's house will come even close to that kind of size and opulence.

[Old Man River]

I said earlier that Jaruwan's credit line is nearly unlimited, with the right banks, of course.

They are not looking at her payslips for the past twelve months to decide whether to approve her application or not.

One other thing is that the house is being built, it's not bought from a developing company - she doesn't have to appply for the loan to cover the full price, she can take loans in stages, and the building can take years if she comes short now and then.

50 million is quite a high price, last year I remember the most expensive houses sold by developers were only 80 mil, the project (somewhere in Ramkhamhaneg) was all over property pages. Everytime there's a big sale like that it makes into the media. The all time record was 150 mil, I think.

I don't belive Jaruwan's house will come even close to that kind of size and opulence.

Plus, on Jaruwan I completely agree with you. People keep forgetting that it is not out of the ordinary for some in Bangkok to either inherit land or purchase it years ago when land in Bangkok was cheap. In Jaruwan's case, she has already said that she owned the property from before she was married. Land in Bangkok is normally the biggest part of the value of a person's house. Also, Jaruwan has worked for 40 years and therefore has accumulated some savings. Still, she has needed to take a loan for THB 12 million for construction costs. None of this seems out of the ordinary.

[ronz28]

The Texas governor's mansion was almost burned down in June of this year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Governor%27s_Mansion

Its a free palace that he/she lives in while Governor. I guess each of the Governors of the fifty states in the US has one in addition to the President's White House. Someone threw a Molotov cocktail at it while the lone guard was in his guard house in the back of the grounds surfing the internet. The infrared security detection systems and alarms were known not to be working and yet had not been fixed though they did capture some footage of the perpetrator on a security cam but haven't identified him yet. The place almost burned down by the time a private citizen noticed the fire and called it in to the fire department. By the way while the Governor is away from the Mansion, the taxpayer is picking up the tab for his home rental, etc. in an exclusive neighborhood of west Austin. Its a shame that us taxpayers have to fund such lifestyles and then pickup the tab for such criminal acts.

I hope they catch the criminal who burned down this historic Texas Governor's Mansion and the new home of the Thailand Auditor General. These are senseless acts that end up costing all the rest of us one way or the other.

[Tony Clifton]

SAme tactics and mud slinging from the usual zombies trying to discredit anything non-Thaksin with stupid unsubstantiated accusations. The best hey could do previously was accusing Sonthi (CNS) of having more than one wife and Surayud (CNS) of having bought train cars he had on his legit property.

Once her house is up they ll probably accuse her of pointing her feet at a statue of Buddha 75 kms away while lying down on her favorite sofa.

[aussimike]

Go against Thaksin and you get burned.... literally and figuratively...

classic case of people in glass houses should not throw stone = this lady lead the charge on Taksin like it was her own little personal vendetta - and she head up the department responsible for anti corruption = case of the pot calling the kettle black maybe - just wonder why she said that it only cost 4 milllion - maybe shy haha dont think so - wonder whats under the bed ?? - and how stupid does she think the Thai public is to believe her comment that the house only cost around 4 million - come on - you can fool some of the people all the time but you cant fool all the people all the time - some one needs to start looking how a 4 million baht house really did cost 50 million plus plus to build - but then again TIT this is Thailand

[younghusband]

SAme tactics and mud slinging from the usual zombies trying to discredit anything non-Thaksin with stupid unsubstantiated accusations. The best hey could do previously was accusing Sonthi (CNS) of having more than one wife and Surayud (CNS) of having bought train cars he had on his legit property.

Once her house is up they ll probably accuse her of pointing her feet at a statue of Buddha 75 kms away while lying down on her favorite sofa.

Interesting that anyone having the temerity to question what is on the face of it an rather odd display of wealth by a poorly paid public servant is labelled a "zombie".Actually for me this was was never just about Khunying Jaruvan in particular and I am partly persuaded by Old Man River's post (though I don't really buy the savings angle) that there may be a perfectly reasonable answer.But until she supplies the necessary information the reasonable questions about the source of funding for the mansion remain unanswered, and I would have thought it was - given her position -good practice to clear things up.Incidentally Plus's comment about the right banks offerering unlimited credit limits proves rather than disproves the messy aspects of this transaction.

As for Sonthi and Surayud, yes there does remain the question why they are comparitively very rich men after lives on poor military salaries.It's not just a Thaksin/anti-Thaksin issue and the same concerns would certainly apply to high officials with PPP/TRT/Thaksin links.I have already pointed out how corruption is buit into the system witness RBSC entrance fees for civil servants.

[Scott]

Apparently anyone who might suggest that it would be in the best interest of Saint Jaruwan to account for her money is automatically a Thaksin supporter. Isn't that a little like assuming that all Muslims are terrorists? Is it not simply possible to ask a reasonably simple question without it being suspect?

[TAWP]

Stop using 50 millions as a number of fact... you are indeed zombies if you do.

(Ps. The house cannot have 'cost 50 millions to build' since it's still early in construction and the house isn't even close to being finished. I'm looking at you aussimike. Ds.)

[steveromagnino]

Stop using 50 millions as a number of fact... you are indeed zombies if you do.

(Ps. The house cannot have 'cost 50 millions to build' since it's still early in construction and the house isn't even close to being finished. I'm looking at you aussimike. Ds.)

As a property developer, I would estimated that the cost of developing what looks like a very standard fairly large house would probably be in the realm of perhaps at around 15,000 - 20,000b per sqm up to the point of flicking in your loose furniture, and it is what about 400sqm in size; so that's something like 8m baht. This is based on a fairly standard spec ie. American standard not Kohler/Axor Grohe; homogeneous tiling not granite floors etc.

It doesn't look like much interior is in, so my guess is investment is somewhere in the realm of 30% of that number.

Land cost for such a development would have been next to nothing up until probably 5 years ago. Zero if she already owned it.

note that for a property developer, whatever it cost they would be looking to run at a margin of something like 2X, so assuming a land value of say 10MB in today's money, and a total cost of 8m to build it, then we might be looking at a selling price of the realm of 36MB. But it cost her 18MB. I can guarantee there are a ton of companies who would be quite happy to give her various things for free or sell to her cheaply. She is a nice VIP customer to have.

I remember this woman's name quite well and as I understand a number of the TRT people have tried to dig up dirt on her before but she simply didn't have any, at least not that could be used (if there is actually any). She also had a number of heavy weight backers in her corner, and i don't just mean the so called Bangkok elite, but actual business people who were sick of doing business with the TRT style of 'you pay, you back us or we will completely screw you' even some of the TRT families who were part of TRT out of fear rather than anything else. The difference between those clowns and their predecessors was the brazen ways in which they guzzled and whoremongered (literally) - they were like the Kennedys!

My guess is she makes 150k a month, probably as an auditor type has no guilty pleasures in life and still eats at the foodcourt. I have NIL idea why anyone would be that interested; hel_l it is in the middle of Nonthaburi isn't it???!

If you wanted to point fingers at people, I would have thought the former BOT governor would be a much nicer target.....but then again when ever the pointing game is played then everyone always has a target other than themselves.

Yes, I think she would do well to clear how she lives in such a place although of course why she should need to stoop who knows, but anyway, it sure would silence a few.

Kind of a bit like some of the Thaksin supporters - first they claimed there were no cases that could stand up, which is why the Shinwatras hadn't be brought to court. Then they claimed the watchdogs had no rights to bring those cases to court. Then they claimed the cases had no merit anyway. Then they tried to get rid of the watchdogs. Then they said there wasn't enough evidence. Then they saw there was, and tried to pay off the judges. And now they claim in an open and shut case......judicial favouritism!

Great bunch of blokes, ah well I for one always rate the opinions of taxi drivers and gangsters like Newin well above anyone else, after all they represent both one of the richest and some of the poorest people in Thailand, so they must be right.

Anyone with kids where 2 of them alledgedly cheated to get into uni and to finish, and one was actually caught doing so must surely have a screw loose not to have locked them up. Mind you, I guess the war on drugs was a nice punishment for the rest of us paying for the kids sins. Thanks.

leea dee Ai Liam.

Edited August 18, 2008 by steveromagnino

[fuzedcon]

Land cost for such a development would have been next to nothing up until probably 5 years ago. Zero if she already owned it.

I will not make any guess on Jaruvan, but this statement of yours is very misleading.

15 years ago i lived at the arse end of Nonthaburi, land without access to roads was then about 1 mio. Baht a rai, land at a dirt track was 4 mio. a rai, land with proper road connection a multitude of that.

The time land in Nonthaburi went for "next to nothing" has been maybe 30 years or more ago.

Obviously she may have inherited that land, but the public has a right to know the details, especially because of her position and reputation. If the dear Khunying is refusing to do so, then lingering doubts will remain until she answers on the accusations.

Defending her just because of her position, and because so far no dirt has been found, is asinine.

[Scott]

Stevero.... I agree with a lot of what you said. My gut tells me she's a good and honorable person and I have held her in quite regard. She seems to have a strong moral compass. This distraction could be easily answered.

[Old Man River]

Stevero.... I agree with a lot of what you said. My gut tells me she's a good and honorable person and I have held her in quite regard. She seems to have a strong moral compass. This distraction could be easily answered.

She has already said she has owned the property since before she was married and she isn't a newlywed. In addition, as TAWP has stated more than once, the THB 50 million valuation is a complete fabrication by some of her enemies.

[younghusband]

Stevero.... I agree with a lot of what you said. My gut tells me she's a good and honorable person and I have held her in quite regard. She seems to have a strong moral compass. This distraction could be easily answered.

She has already said she has owned the property since before she was married and she isn't a newlywed. In addition, as TAWP has stated more than once, the THB 50 million valuation is a complete fabrication by some of her enemies.

There seems to be unanimity that Khunying Jaravan is a capable and admirable woman, and I accept that her enemies (which do not include me) may be exploiting this house issue.Equally there seems to be agreement there is some explaining to do because frankly the numbers don't seem to add up.Obviously what we - mainly expatriates - think is neither here nor there.

But there is something very troubling about statements made (by thoughtful people) that she can expect unlimited credit from banks and loads of free stuff from developers as a VIP customer.I don't doubt it all but this tells us something about the fundamental problems in the Thai public service.

[steveromagnino]

But there is something very troubling about statements made (by thoughtful people) that she can expect unlimited credit from banks and loads of free stuff from developers as a VIP customer.I don't doubt it all but this tells us something about the fundamental problems in the Thai public service.

Just to clarify my position; it is normal that celebrities, well known people and respected figures don't pay retail.

For many things. As a person used to dealing with many of the high society wives, I know full well their expectation of freebies and giveaways from the fashion industry; and yes, they get them.

Smart people also tend not to have to pay retail either. They know how to negotiate.

This is not kick backs or corruption. This is how the world works. I am a fortunate beneficiary of this system in many aspects of life because of being considered (wrongly for the most part) as somewhat of a VIP customer to have.

FOr instance, the local owner of Cementmart might see her come in, say, 'Oh I like you so much, here have a 30% discount, I really respect the work you are doing in willing to get yourself abducted or killed as per the human rights lawyer, simply because you are doing what you believe is right'

Or might say, 'hmmmm I give this person a 30 discount, and hopefully she will tell her friends about my tiling skills'

As a non Thai public service person I fail to see how this is in any way bad. It isnt' patronage system so much as astute marketing by various vendors.

if however, someone is giving her free concrete so she will send Thaksin to jail....well that is something else entirely. however, I don't really see that this is the case.... countless other civil servants ESPECIALLY during the TRT years were the take massively, but I don't see her as one of them.

Edited August 19, 2008 by steveromagnino

[younghusband]

But there is something very troubling about statements made (by thoughtful people) that she can expect unlimited credit from banks and loads of free stuff from developers as a VIP customer.I don't doubt it all but this tells us something about the fundamental problems in the Thai public service.

Just to clarify my position; it is normal that celebrities, well known people and respected figures don't pay retail.

For many things. As a person used to dealing with many of the high society wives, I know full well their expectation of freebies and giveaways from the fashion industry; and yes, they get them.

Smart people also tend not to have to pay retail either. They know how to negotiate.

This is not kick backs or corruption. This is how the world works. I am a fortunate beneficiary of this system in many aspects of life because of being considered (wrongly for the most part) as somewhat of a VIP customer to have.

FOr instance, the local owner of Cementmart might see her come in, say, 'Oh I like you so much, here have a 30% discount, I really respect the work you are doing in willing to get yourself abducted or killed as per the human rights lawyer, simply because you are doing what you believe is right'

Or might say, 'hmmmm I give this person a 30 discount, and hopefully she will tell her friends about my tiling skills'

As a non Thai public service person I fail to see how this is in any way bad. It isnt' patronage system so much as astute marketing by various vendors.

if however, someone is giving her free concrete so she will send Thaksin to jail....well that is something else entirely. however, I don't really see that this is the case.... countless other civil servants ESPECIALLY during the TRT years were the take massively, but I don't see her as one of them.

If a public servant gets retail prices nobody can possibly object.If a public servant has expectations of freebies and giveaways that is completely wrong.I think you also do Khunying Jaruvan a misjustice.She is a hard working middle class public servant, worlds away from the vulgar hiso fashion world.Actually the genuine Thai upper echelon wives are often very simple in their tastes and often do excellent and unsung charity work.Genuine class speaks for itself.

[steveromagnino]

If a public servant gets retail prices nobody can possibly object.If a public servant has expectations of freebies and giveaways that is completely wrong.I think you also do Khunying Jaruvan a misjustice.She is a hard working middle class public servant, worlds away from the vulgar hiso fashion world.Actually the genuine Thai upper echelon wives are often very simple in their tastes and often do excellent and unsung charity work.Genuine class speaks for itself.

I doubt many public servants have expectations of freebies or giveaways.

Certainly the former PM's wife was one non public servant who was a permanent fixture on the freebie list and most definitely a member of the vulgar hiso fashion set, as is one the son.

Or should I saw was.

And should I really say son, when perhaps 3 daughters is a better more apt description.

Genuine class is indeed a far cry from pretention.

[TAWP]

But there is something very troubling about statements made (by thoughtful people) that she can expect unlimited credit from banks and loads of free stuff from developers as a VIP customer.I don't doubt it all but this tells us something about the fundamental problems in the Thai public service.

For many things. As a person used to dealing with many of the high society wives, I know full well their expectation of freebies and giveaways from the fashion industry; and yes, they get them.

Much like famous movie stars 'shops' for free in many large stores in the UK and US as they are seen as walking ad-posters (or that is the hope anyway).

[younghusband]

If a public servant gets retail prices nobody can possibly object.If a public servant has expectations of freebies and giveaways that is completely wrong.I think you also do Khunying Jaruvan a misjustice.She is a hard working middle class public servant, worlds away from the vulgar hiso fashion world.Actually the genuine Thai upper echelon wives are often very simple in their tastes and often do excellent and unsung charity work.Genuine class speaks for itself.

I doubt many public servants have expectations of freebies or giveaways.

Certainly the former PM's wife was one non public servant who was a permanent fixture on the freebie list and most definitely a member of the vulgar hiso fashion set, as is one the son.

Or should I saw was.

And should I really say son, when perhaps 3 daughters is a better more apt description.

Genuine class is indeed a far cry from pretention.

Agree everything you say.I have the privilege of knowing three Khunyings a little bit.All are well off because one occupies a very senior banking position (I suppose that may give it away!),one is married to a successful and honest businessman and one has royal connections.All three are kind and thoughtful, spend a lot of effort (but quietly and without self publicity) on charity work and light years away from the greed and vulgarity of Pojaman and her ilk.They are upper class Thais at their best, and with a grace and charm that is matchless.

Edited August 20, 2008 by younghusband