Lack Of Teaching Materials And Teachers Are Main Problems

[baanthale]

So Heng, it's nice to get the views of an educated That citizen on this matters. I try to sum it up a bit.

So the "fishing net look a like" laws and regulations on foreign owned business in Thailand doesn't have anything to do with fear of competition, and fear that the Thai worker starts to think outside the box. It's all about that foreign company's only use cheap Thai labor, without giving anything back to the community. Thai company's on the other hand are good because they don't sack workers, as they are all "luk nongs".

Education should be dealt with in anyones home, (beside socials, maths and geography). The government and citizens does not have any responsibility to get the masses educated, one should only care for one self and the family. Any sort of help should be classified as "handouts", and that would not benefit anyone, beside the taker. It's the poors own fault that they are undereducated, should have been born with rich parents with money saved in the bank.

If a poor family split up with kids, it's their own fault, shouldn't have kids in first place. It's nothing wrong with the responsibility laws in Thailand regarding child care. The mother or father with the kids to feed and educate, only have them self to blame?! Before they had the kids, they should save up some of all that money they are making here working, instead of buying food, toilette articles and other unnecessary stuff.

This all sounds good if you are Thai and rich, but what about the other 90% of the population, should they have any say?

[Heng]

So Heng, it's nice to get the views of an educated That citizen on this matters. I try to sum it up a bit.

So the "fishing net look a like" laws and regulations on foreign owned business in Thailand doesn't have anything to do with fear of competition, and fear that the Thai worker starts to think outside the box. It's all about that foreign company's only use cheap Thai labor, without giving anything back to the community. Thai company's on the other hand are good because they don't sack workers, as they are all "luk nongs".

One can call it fear of competition, or one can call it love of one's own marketshare. It has nothing to do with keeping anyone down though (no idea why you trying to somehow link it to the state of education here). My view was a counter to your biased view that foreign companies want to "give back to the community" while local companies only want to exploit locals and kepe them down.

Education should be dealt with in anyones home, (beside socials, maths and geography). The government and citizens does not have any responsibility to get the masses educated, one should only care for one self and the family. Any sort of help should be classified as "handouts", and that would not benefit anyone, beside the taker. It's the poors own fault that they are undereducated, should have been born with rich parents with money saved in the bank.

Education gets its start in the home. The gov't and citizens do have responsibility to provide basic education... but should be promoting a 'better start' from the time before babies are born as well (everyone should be reading and talking to their children during pregnancy... and should be *educating* their own children throughout their lives... I'm still learning from my parents to this very day... they are still learning from my grandparents as well). "Any sort of help" is your term, not mine. In general, it is both the poor, the middle class, the rich, who are responsible for their financial and social status in life. Yours is a view that tries to ignore that life/progress is not a one generation game, but a continuing summation of the previous generations.

If a poor family split up with kids, it's their own fault, shouldn't have kids in first place. It's nothing wrong with the responsibility laws in Thailand regarding child care. The mother or father with the kids to feed and educate, only have them self to blame?! Before they had the kids, they should save up some of all that money they are making here working, instead of buying food, toilette articles and other unnecessary stuff.

Again, that's blaming external (non-self) conditions for internal (one's on self) problems. And yes, having children is not a right and just something to do because one has enough time to procreate.

This all sounds good if you are Thai and rich, but what about the other 90% of the population, should they have any say?

Everyone has a 100% say in the decisions they make. Every single human being on this planet is part of a genetic line that was at one time a poor hunter/gatherer. It's the decisions that they made all along the way that put them where they are now. Are you saying that nature's '"laws" are unfair and unjust somehow?

[baanthale]

So Heng, it's nice to get the views of an educated That citizen on this matters. I try to sum it up a bit.

So the "fishing net look a like" laws and regulations on foreign owned business in Thailand doesn't have anything to do with fear of competition, and fear that the Thai worker starts to think outside the box. It's all about that foreign company's only use cheap Thai labor, without giving anything back to the community. Thai company's on the other hand are good because they don't sack workers, as they are all "luk nongs".

One can call it fear of competition, or one can call it love of one's own marketshare. It has nothing to do with keeping anyone down though (no idea why you trying to somehow link it to the state of education here). My view was a counter to your biased view that foreign companies want to "give back to the community" while local companies only want to exploit locals and kepe them down.

I will explain to you how it's linked to education. When the doors in Thailand opens up for foreign investments under the same terms as Thai investment, there will be a need for educated people. It will not be enough to just show a graduate paper that 'papa" paid big money for. It will not be enough to have contacts or be a "luk-nong". You will be employed because of what you know, and not because of who you know. The government and society will have to put their sh-t together, and education will not be on offer only because of how full your wallet is, rater on if you are smart or not!

Education should be dealt with in anyones home, (beside socials, maths and geography). The government and citizens does not have any responsibility to get the masses educated, one should only care for one self and the family. Any sort of help should be classified as "handouts", and that would not benefit anyone, beside the taker. It's the poors own fault that they are undereducated, should have been born with rich parents with money saved in the bank.

Education gets its start in the home. The gov't and citizens do have responsibility to provide basic education... but should be promoting a 'better start' from the time before babies are born as well (everyone should be reading and talking to their children during pregnancy... and should be *educating* their own children throughout their lives... I'm still learning from my parents to this very day... they are still learning from my grandparents as well). "Any sort of help" is your term, not mine. In general, it is both the poor, the middle class, the rich, who are responsible for their financial and social status in life. Yours is a view that tries to ignore that life/progress is not a one generation game, but a continuing summation of the previous generations.

So there you said it yourself! So what do we argue about? All have to take resbonsibility, poor and rich.

If a poor family split up with kids, it's their own fault, shouldn't have kids in first place. It's nothing wrong with the responsibility laws in Thailand regarding child care. The mother or father with the kids to feed and educate, only have them self to blame?! Before they had the kids, they should save up some of all that money they are making here working, instead of buying food, toilette articles and other unnecessary stuff.

Again, that's blaming external (non-self) conditions for internal (one's on self) problems. And yes, having children is not a right and just something to do because one has enough time to procreate.

A good country would put up some kind of safety nets to help people in needed situations, even if it is not a right to have children.

This all sounds good if you are Thai and rich, but what about the other 90% of the population, should they have any say?

Everyone has a 100% say in the decisions they make. Every single human being on this planet is part of a genetic line that was at one time a poor hunter/gatherer. It's the decisions that they made all along the way that put them where they are now. Are you saying that nature's '"laws" are unfair and unjust somehow?

:

There is for sure some rich people in the world that actually did something real for their money, however, you don't find many of them in Thailand.

I let you get last word, assume that is important for you!

[lifeisrandom]

I can only imagine the pure chaos that would occur if there were American style welfare offices giving away money in Thailand.

"So, if I have two more children I will get another 4k baht a month?"

Ka.

"If a person only has one arm. THey get an extra 3k baht a month?"

Krap, Pom.

"What if all of my children are missing arms and legs. What does that get us?"

--- It seems likely to cause even more problems.

[Khun Ngo]

"Handouts" are only beneficial if the receiving end knows what to do with it.

[Heng]

"Handouts" are only beneficial if the receiving end knows what to do with it.

Exactly.

If a less than well off relative came to me for a loan to start up a business venture (and it sounded/looked like something with potential), I'd certainly consider it.

If he/she wanted the funds to pay for a birth/delivery package at a private hospital, I'd have to say the only thing I would give them was 'emotional support.' "You can do it, tiger!"

[Heng]

So Heng, it's nice to get the views of an educated That citizen on this matters. I try to sum it up a bit.

So the "fishing net look a like" laws and regulations on foreign owned business in Thailand doesn't have anything to do with fear of competition, and fear that the Thai worker starts to think outside the box. It's all about that foreign company's only use cheap Thai labor, without giving anything back to the community. Thai company's on the other hand are good because they don't sack workers, as they are all "luk nongs".

One can call it fear of competition, or one can call it love of one's own marketshare. It has nothing to do with keeping anyone down though (no idea why you trying to somehow link it to the state of education here). My view was a counter to your biased view that foreign companies want to "give back to the community" while local companies only want to exploit locals and kepe them down.

I will explain to you how it's linked to education. When the doors in Thailand opens up for foreign investments under the same terms as Thai investment, there will be a need for educated people. It will not be enough to just show a graduate paper that 'papa" paid big money for. It will not be enough to have contacts or be a "luk-nong". You will be employed because of what you know, and not because of who you know. The government and society will have to put their sh-t together, and education will not be on offer only because of how full your wallet is, rater on if you are smart or not!

A nice theory on paper, except for the fact that the door has been marginally open for some time, and the norm, in my experience is that foreign companies lower the bar and adapt themselves to the local enviroment more than they require that locals raise it (in just about all areas that don't have to do with quality control and revenue) to their own 'standards.'

Education should be dealt with in anyones home, (beside socials, maths and geography). The government and citizens does not have any responsibility to get the masses educated, one should only care for one self and the family. Any sort of help should be classified as "handouts", and that would not benefit anyone, beside the taker. It's the poors own fault that they are undereducated, should have been born with rich parents with money saved in the bank.

Education gets its start in the home. The gov't and citizens do have responsibility to provide basic education... but should be promoting a 'better start' from the time before babies are born as well (everyone should be reading and talking to their children during pregnancy... and should be *educating* their own children throughout their lives... I'm still learning from my parents to this very day... they are still learning from my grandparents as well). "Any sort of help" is your term, not mine. In general, it is both the poor, the middle class, the rich, who are responsible for their financial and social status in life. Yours is a view that tries to ignore that life/progress is not a one generation game, but a continuing summation of the previous generations.

So there you said it yourself! So what do we argue about? All have to take resbonsibility, poor and rich.

Are we arguing? I thought we were having a discussion. I'm saying that that state already exists. I believe you are saying that it does not exist. There already is basic education for all. There are varying levels in terms of quality in tiers, usually based on what one can afford (just like clothing, shoes, property, airline tickets, etc.) In my opinion, feel free to clarify if you think I'm wrong, is that you have a problem with some people being able to afford more than others. You (along with Johpa) define that concept as an uneven playing field.

If a poor family split up with kids, it's their own fault, shouldn't have kids in first place. It's nothing wrong with the responsibility laws in Thailand regarding child care. The mother or father with the kids to feed and educate, only have them self to blame?! Before they had the kids, they should save up some of all that money they are making here working, instead of buying food, toilette articles and other unnecessary stuff.

Again, that's blaming external (non-self) conditions for internal (one's on self) problems. And yes, having children is not a right and just something to do because one has enough time to procreate.

A good country would put up some kind of safety nets to help people in needed situations, even if it is not a right to have children.

A good country would not reward people for irresponsibility, as irresponsiblity would inevitably snowball out of control.

This all sounds good if you are Thai and rich, but what about the other 90% of the population, should they have any say?

Everyone has a 100% say in the decisions they make. Every single human being on this planet is part of a genetic line that was at one time a poor hunter/gatherer. It's the decisions that they made all along the way that put them where they are now. Are you saying that nature's '"laws" are unfair and unjust somehow?

:

There is for sure some rich people in the world that actually did something real for their money, however, you don't find many of them in Thailand.

I let you get last word, assume that is important for you!

I suppose that means you're out of things to say?

(Heng in bold blue font)

[Johpa]

Your point? (none, as usual... other than you are still hoping to pin the blame of some of life's dissatisfactions on others)

Heng, I can make my point with specific historical examples as I did in an earlier post or by innuendo, and you still won't get my point. Regardless of what we post we will maintain contrary points of view. Our Weltanschauungs are simply incompatible. Discourse is futile.

[Heng]

Your point? (none, as usual... other than you are still hoping to pin the blame of some of life's dissatisfactions on others)

Heng, I can make my point with specific historical examples as I did in an earlier post or by innuendo, and you still won't get my point. Regardless of what we post we will maintain contrary points of view. Our Weltanschauungs are simply incompatible. Discourse is futile.

I have no doubt that history plays a role, in the same way the everyone's personal history plays a role in determing where they are in life at any given time. I understand your point perfectly well, you wish you had a time machine so that you could change history. You feel that that would be much easier than accepting/believing that anyone can progress in life, despite a handicapped starting position.

[Livinginexile]

Seriously, why does any alien in Thailand genuinly care about the Thai education system? What is it to you? What's really in it for you? Haven't you got better things to do with your time than to ponder the education system here? If your an alien teacher in the system, I think as long as your little lot is OK why do you bother with the rest? After all, for an alien teaching here, is it not just a means to an end, ie; the money, in order you live the life style that you chose.

Some of us are parents with kids in the education system which is why we care. Others I guess just care for humanitarian reasons. I also guess that if people are teaching out here it is quite likely that may have some desire to see things improved. It may even be that the lifestyle someone chose involved the job they chose.

I have never understood why the only reason someone should care about things is that there is something in it for them.

Each to their own

Farang parents who have their children in the Thai education system can not say that they CARE!!

Care for who? obviously only himself.

A child graduating with a Thai degree!! goodness gracious thats not caring for the child.

A careing farang parent would take the family home at school age.

[baanthale]

Seriously, why does any alien in Thailand genuinly care about the Thai education system? What is it to you? What's really in it for you? Haven't you got better things to do with your time than to ponder the education system here? If your an alien teacher in the system, I think as long as your little lot is OK why do you bother with the rest? After all, for an alien teaching here, is it not just a means to an end, ie; the money, in order you live the life style that you chose.

Some of us are parents with kids in the education system which is why we care. Others I guess just care for humanitarian reasons. I also guess that if people are teaching out here it is quite likely that may have some desire to see things improved. It may even be that the lifestyle someone chose involved the job they chose.

I have never understood why the only reason someone should care about things is that there is something in it for them.

Each to their own

Farang parents who have their children in the Thai education system can not say that they CARE!!

Care for who? obviously only himself.

A child graduating with a Thai degree!! goodness gracious thats not caring for the child.

A careing farang parent would take the family home at school age.

I think it's a good lesson for a child to start out the first years in a country like Thailand, to learn and see how unfair and selfish life can be.

[Thai at Heart]

Capital begets capital in Thailand. If you ain't got any, you aren't going to get anyone to help you out, so the wealth stays in the hands of the few.

A villager in Thailand could find a cure for cancer but we would never know because banks only support people with capital to back up the loan. Cash flow potential means very little.

[bangon04]

So Heng, it's nice to get the views of an educated That citizen on this matters. I try to sum it up a bit.

If a poor family split up with kids, it's their own fault, shouldn't have kids in first place. It's nothing wrong with the responsibility laws in Thailand regarding child care. The mother or father with the kids to feed and educate, only have them self to blame?! Before they had the kids, they should save up some of all that money they are making here working, instead of buying food, toilette articles and other unnecessary stuff.

Surely a parent can make a better decision about how many children to have if they have the appropriate education? Although the methods used in PRChina were questionable, they did have some success in reducing the birthrate and some parts of Chinese society have prospered as a result. The concept of 2 children only is not widely taught or appreciated in provincial Thailand, is it???

[bangon04]

Farang parents who have their children in the Thai education system can not say that they CARE!!

Care for who? obviously only himself.

A child graduating with a Thai degree!! goodness gracious thats not caring for the child.

A careing farang parent would take the family home at school age.

I observed the school where my stepdaughter was in Isaan. I was appalled at many things, not just the lack of English lessons, the "initiative" to learn rice farming to supplement the school food, and the drunken teachers by 3pm each afternoon. I brought her to Bangkok, where I had to home tutor her in English to get her into the local school without too much disadvantage. This local school is miles better than where she was. She has made tremendous improvements. Instead of wanting to be a rice farmer and marry at 15, she now has aspirations to be a doctor. I now feel obliged to get her into a private school because even her teachers have no confidence that she can do it (one said that she is too dark-skinned!!!!!!). Even if she never gets to be a doctor, I have to make sure she gets the chance.

[bangon04]

I agree that public education in the US, at least at the compulsory levels, is mediocre. Just about every government program is, and the wealthy will always be able to afford better private alternatives whether it be education or health care. I am objecting to your contention that there is a deliberate public policy by a "ruling elite" to "keep the masses relatively uneducated", at least with respect to the US. Furthermore I can imagine no sensible reason why such a policy would be advantageous to any class or country.

There is also no sensible reason why a democratically elected government and prime minister would systematically drain a country's wealth and prosperity for the financial advantage of their families and friends and Classmates.......

[Johpa]

I agree that public education in the US, at least at the compulsory levels, is mediocre. Just about every government program is, and the wealthy will always be able to afford better private alternatives whether it be education or health care. I am objecting to your contention that there is a deliberate public policy by a "ruling elite" to "keep the masses relatively uneducated", at least with respect to the US. Furthermore I can imagine no sensible reason why such a policy would be advantageous to any class or country.

There is also no sensible reason why a democratically elected government and prime minister would systematically drain a country's wealth and prosperity for the financial advantage of their families and friends and Classmates.......

I never meant to imply that the elites and their co-opted elected government officials were sensible as I do not consider greed to be a sensible long term social strategy. Historically, greed has led to a fracturing in the social structure and has also led to environmental degradation. With the 'global' economy, it is currently leading to planetary degradation. Keeping the masses minimally educated is a tactic to minimize competition, just as is limiting the availability of credit by the financial institutions.

[Heng]

I never meant to imply that the elites and their co-opted elected government officials were sensible as I do not consider greed to be a sensible long term social strategy. Historically, greed has led to a fracturing in the social structure and has also led to environmental degradation. With the 'global' economy, it is currently leading to planetary degradation. Keeping the masses minimally educated is a tactic to minimize competition, just as is limiting the availability of credit by the financial institutions.

It's wishful thinking to believe that the poor would not be 'greedy' given the opportunity. This planet could NOT sustain every single family owning their own home and a refrigerator, much less consuming as much as even the 'lower' middle classes across the planet.

[dumball]

I never meant to imply that the elites and their co-opted elected government officials were sensible as I do not consider greed to be a sensible long term social strategy. Historically, greed has led to a fracturing in the social structure and has also led to environmental degradation. With the 'global' economy, it is currently leading to planetary degradation. Keeping the masses minimally educated is a tactic to minimize competition, just as is limiting the availability of credit by the financial institutions.

It's wishful thinking to believe that the poor would not be 'greedy' given the opportunity. This planet could NOT sustain every single family owning their own home and a refrigerator, much less consuming as much as even the 'lower' middle classes across the planet.

Greed seems to have become a national institution in Thailand at most stratas of the population , one cannot blame teachers for low results of the education system , teachers teach but it is up to the individual student to LEARN from what is available . Talking to various teachers , it would seem to me that students are basicly too lazy to learn , that is NOT the teachers problem , but should be the concern of the parents , me-thinks perhaps they may not want thier off-spring to be more learned than themselves , fancy having your child trying to tell you a better way to do something , what was that about the pre-ordained factor of FACE ??? Easier to pay the teacher a few bucks for a pass , any certificates of achievment please , we are running low on toilet paper .

[richard10365]

I think the problem has more to do with students copying from their friends for 12 years and not doing their own work. Also, no real standards. About all students have to do is show up for class and they pass to the next higher grade the following year. I believe that is the real educational problem in Thailand. Thai Ethics.

[dumball]

I think the problem has more to do with students copying from their friends for 12 years and not doing their own work. Also, no real standards. About all students have to do is show up for class and they pass to the next higher grade the following year. I believe that is the real educational problem in Thailand. Thai Ethics.

Is that not a sign of out and out LAZINESS ??

[richard10365]

I think the problem has more to do with students copying from their friends for 12 years and not doing their own work. Also, no real standards. About all students have to do is show up for class and they pass to the next higher grade the following year. I believe that is the real educational problem in Thailand. Thai Ethics.

Is that not a sign of out and out LAZINESS ??

I don't believe it is as much as sign of laziness as it is a sign of kids cheating their way through life. By the time they are adults, their ethical values are so corrupt that when they do see something that is considered wrong in most societies, they don't notice. You can see Thai examples of adults acting unethically when you watch their government in action. Another example, how Thailand tolerates copyright infringement. How many computers are running orginal software? How they condem the west for their values but have no problem with kareoke bars everywhere or sexually oriented places such as Pattaya, Patpong or Soi Cowboy.

While this lack of laziness, as you call it seems harmless as a child, I beleive it has far reaching implications on ethical behavior for when they are adults.

Success in education and ethical behavior are related.

[Ijustwannateach]

It's not laziness when the students are systemically rewarded for a behaviour. Frighteningly, the current mature adult population (30s+) was NOT educated under this no-fail system (i.e., you could fail in high school when they were children) and so we can look forward to a future Thailand with even less sense of accountability in individuals than there is now.

Unfortunately, we will have to go through a long dark night at the aphelion of this irresponsibility before things swing back the other way. It seems endemic at the moment to believe Not Looking For Problems = No Problems.

[msennido]

Seriously, why does any alien in Thailand genuinly care about the Thai education system? What is it to you? What's really in it for you? Haven't you got better things to do with your time than to ponder the education system here? If your an alien teacher in the system, I think as long as your little lot is OK why do you bother with the rest? After all, for an alien teaching here, is it not just a means to an end, ie; the money, in order you live the life style that you chose.

Well someone who has a heart always cares even in cases that he/she is not affected in anyway. And by the way, if a person is in Thailand, you are still part of the issue, especially when that person is teaching, because as a teacher/educator (by heat), one does not only implant knowledge to the student but also mould them to be better or perhaps the best one they could be. It gives overwhelming satisfaction as a teacher to see his/her students grow up and be successfully "developed".

[dumball]

I think the problem has more to do with students copying from their friends for 12 years and not doing their own work. Also, no real standards. About all students have to do is show up for class and they pass to the next higher grade the following year. I believe that is the real educational problem in Thailand. Thai Ethics.

Is that not a sign of out and out LAZINESS ??

I don't believe it is as much as sign of laziness as it is a sign of kids cheating their way through life. By the time they are adults, their ethical values are so corrupt that when they do see something that is considered wrong in most societies, they don't notice. You can see Thai examples of adults acting unethically when you watch their government in action. Another example, how Thailand tolerates copyright infringement. How many computers are running orginal software? How they condem the west for their values but have no problem with kareoke bars everywhere or sexually oriented places such as Pattaya, Patpong or Soi Cowboy.

While this lack of laziness, as you call it seems harmless as a child, I beleive it has far reaching implications on ethical behavior for when they are adults.

Success in education and ethical behavior are related.

So you do not consider a student who fails to study or do homework lazy ? Because of this they need to cheat to achieve , is this not the pre-emptor of lack of ethics or doing for yourself ? Condem the west for values but have no problem with kareoke bars or sexually oriented places , is this not a form of laziness ? Easier to lay on your back for 5 minutes than actualy do an honest days work for an honest dollar , your way of thinking has become some-what distorted . Sex workers are on a par with welfare-ites in the west , do as little as neccessary for maximum gain with the least possible effort , paid by the welfare state which in this scenario happens to be foreigners . You said it yourself WHILE THIS LAZINESS SEEMS HARMLESS AS A CHILD , IT HAS FAR REACHING IMPLICATIONS ON ETHICAL BEHAVIOR WHEN THEY ARE ADULTS .

Take a good honest look around you sir , Thais take the easiest way out of most situations , that is called being lazy , it is inherant in Thai culture , that is corruption plain and simple , giving the least to get the most LAZINESS period , taught and condoned at an early age .

[geriatrickid]

Understandably, it is unfair to compare post secondary education in Thailand with countries that do not share similar economic characteristics to Thailand. However, a comparison with other nations both larger and smaller, does illustrate why Thailand is failing at the post secondary education level. Unfortunately, when there is an inferior post secondary system, it is reflected in the primary and secondary school systems.

For all intents and purposes, the US government is nearly bankrupt, awash in deficit, while the Thai government is in far better shape. Yet the university system in the US is on solid ground and handing out bursaries and grants to more and more students, while the Thai government is not. Know why? It's because success creates future success, The endowments at both private and public universities and colleges in the USA are growing because graduates give back. Have a look at the US endowments. The total of of some schools dwarfs the annual Thai ministry of education budget.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/01/22/nacubo

You may not like Americans, but as a population they are generous with charities. There are few endowments at Thai universities because the graduates do not give back. It should be a national embarrassment in Thailand when some rinky dink community college in west armpit USA has a bigger endowment than an "important" Thai university. Unacceptable. If Thais want to moan and groan over the loss of face and insult to pride because of some decrepit temple in Cambodia, then they should be up in arms over the state of universities in the country.

Ok, so you say, well the Americans are a big country. Fine. Then take Canada, a country with 1/2 of Thailand's population, where there is no tradition of giving as in the USA because Canadians benefit from subsidized tuitions. Yet, even McGill University, which is 2nd rate compared to many universities in the EU and USA has amassed an endowment of $840million by working its graduates. The biggest contributions at McGill in the past 5 years have not come from Canadian graduates but from foreign graduates. The new chemistry building was made possible by a graduate from Hong Kong. Thailand has many foreign students, and yet, one would be hard pressed to get them to give something back. Why?

Even for small countries with no education budgets, the future is better than Thailand's. A couple months ago, I attended a seminar on bone cancer treatments. The presentation featured a kid from the Weizman Institute in Israel that came up with the treatment that will probably save a lot of lives in the coming years. That place survives on a shoestring budget, getting about $180 million or so a year from the government. Chump change. Yet, it is one of the most important research centers in the world for the life sciences. It literally churns out new discoveries every year. It has harnessed that research to help fund the school. In one year I think they came out with 40 patents and 15 licenses related to medical care alone. I'd be surprised if Thailand came out with 1 patent that was viable in the past decade. The school spends alot of time raising money outside of the country and it gets those donations because donors see the results. Success breeds success.

As long as Thailand is content to get by on cloned or borrowed innovation, the culture of achievement will never take hold and the state of education will deteriorate. I think Thais have an attitude that derides the value of a education. The concept of building something aside from a Temple for the benefit of a community is not a priority. The real groundbreakers and pioneers in Thailand are it's unappreciated, and non-funded researchers who stay as long as they can before heading to the EU and US.

Education is the way forward and it's looking like Thais will forever be doomed to being the manual labour for those nations that have put more value on original thought and advancement. It's great if you are looking for uneducated Thais to work in your bar but if you are Microsoft, Glaxo-Kline, Siemens etc, Thailand isn't going to be on your radar screen as a potential R&D site the same way tiny Belgium, or Israel will be.

[Heng]

It's because the ones that can give back choose to solidify their family foundations rather than that of their alma mater. I already paid my tuition the first time around (in cash, not with loans -many that go unpaid- unlike an awful lot of folks), I'm not going to give them a gratuity on top of that... especially not one to pay for the tuition for those (or whose families) who didn't work hard enough or care enough to pay for college.

[way2muchcoffee]

It's because the ones that can give back choose to solidify their family foundations rather than that of their alma mater. I already paid my tuition the first time around (in cash, not with loans -many that go unpaid- unlike an awful lot of folks), I'm not going to give them a gratuity on top of that... especially not one to pay for the tuition for those (or whose families) who didn't work hard enough or care enough to pay for college.

Yep. And that attitude strongly supports the point that Geriatric was making.

[Heng]

[yumidesign]

Lack of teaching materials and teachers are main problems : Poll

lack of any idea about education is the real problem. Every teacher or anyone involved in education in Thailand should read the following:

The head of The King's School, Australia, Tim Hawkes, throws down a challenge to educators.

Despite being a headmaster for nearly 20 years, I am just developing a conviction that I have been manifestly unfaithful as an educator because I have been teaching an inadequate curriculum. The fact that this inadequacy in curriculum is probably to be found in most Western schools brings me no comfort at all.

When the philosopher Aristippus of Cyrene was asked, 400 years BC, what students should be taught, he replied: "Those things which they will use when adults."

What, then, are the things our students will use as adults? The only certainties are well known - death and taxes. Do we teach death in our schools? Do we teach financial literacy?

Both my parents died a few years ago. Apart from the grief, I found I had to cope with the ignorance. What sort of funeral service? What is probate? Whom do I have to notify? What are the duties of an executor? My experience is hardly unique. We all have to deal with death, even if it is just our own.

Then there are taxes - a topic I have expanded to include financial literacy. I look at the young today and see far too many victims in the use of credit cards, in understanding the relative benefits of lending schemes, in deciding which telephone plan to use, and in being able to save.

Too many schools have lost sight of those things that will be used by our students when they become adults. The relevance of contemporary school education is compromised by many things, not least by exam systems designed not so much to prepare students for life, as to help them get into tertiary education or improve the resume.

What are the things students will use when they are grown up? Any serious answer is unlikely to omit things such as the ability to:

* live in community and forge good relationships;

* communicate well;

* know yourself and what you believe;

* handle intimacy and sex;

* control emotions and impulses;

* manage financial matters;

* do practical things, to clean, cook, make and mend;

* be good mannered and know etiquette;

* accept responsibility;

* be resilient and deal with grief and loss.

Doubtless more topics should be added, but a list even of this length begins to illustrate a chasm between what a student will use when an adult, and what a student is usually taught at school. There are glorious exceptions, of course, and most schools would be doing some things in some of the above areas, but I believe Western education is generally failing to offer its students relevant material.

It is easy to go rather too far with this thesis and advocate that students become like Byron's Don Juan. He learned the arts of riding, fencing, gunnery.

And how to scale a fortress - or a nunnery.

Schools should do more than train for a vocation of scaling nunnery walls. Schools must train the heart and mind, and do so through a variety of academic disciplines. However, schools must ensure they remain relevant to their students' future life, and there is rather too much evidence that they are failing in this regard.

I suggest schools should consider teaching the following skills:

1. Community Too often the contemporary child is the isolated doughy blob entertained by a range of expensive electronic equipment which limits their interaction to "e-relationships". These relationships are often transient and disposable, and lack authenticity. Social skills are under-exercised in some families. This can lead to children becoming self-centred and unable to take the needs of others into the orbit of their thinking. In short, they become a social liability in a group larger than one.

What some children need is a compulsory experience of living in community, not just for six hours a day within the choreographed setting of a school, but for 24 hours a day within the chaos of a bickering and restless community. They need to learn to live with people who are different, so that they can operate in a world where annoying people stubbornly remain and there is no "delete" button to remove them.

2. Communicate Students, particularly boys, urgently need help to communicate better. The Neanderthal grunt may work well at the football ground, but not at work or at home. They need to be articulate, and to communicate well in writing. In fairness to schools, this challenge is being met reasonably faithfully.

However, schools must recognise that content governs only about 7 per cent of the impact of speech. The remainder is controlled by the appearance of the speaker (57 per cent) and the sound of the speaker (36 per cent). The science of voice projection, articulation, accent, modulation, pitch and pace needs to be taught, together with the most appropriate posture, grooming and appearance.

All students need to be taught to read body language, to sense mood, to interpret the unspoken feelings of another. They need to improve their ability to send and receive unspoken messages, other than the raised middle finger.

3. Know yourself An essential requirement for all students is that they eventually take "ownership" of what they believe in. They may mimic a political opinion from friends, a faith from parents and a cause from a teacher, but somewhere the student needs to stop the copying and find his or her own voice.

Martin Luther once stood before his critics and said: "Here I stand, I can do no other." Too many young people do not know where they stand or what they believe. An alarming number appear happy to progress through life without a cause, without a creed and without a conviction. Even worse, some do not even know themselves. They have no understanding of their unique gifts or abilities.

4. Intimacy The Western world does a poor job in preparing its students to be intimate. There are always exceptions, but in general students are required to navigate their way through the sexual swamp with minimal direction. Signposts can be vague and contradictory. The parents say this, and the school says that, but the porn site says something completely different. Where adult direction falters, peer direction takes over. The "leader of the pack" can, in strident and boastful voice, suggest the way forward to the forbidden fruit and encourage all to eat thereof. The proper people to educate students about sex are parents.

Some parents are wonderful at giving their children guidelines on sex, but others are delinquent. The latter can be because of the sin of omission. The lexicon of excuses is extensive: "It's not my job - the school will deal with it"; "I'm too busy"; "It's the sort of thing you have to learn yourself"; "They probably know more about it than I do"; "I'm not quite sure what to tell them." There are plenty of excuses to choose from. For other parents, it is the sin of commission. They teach their children an attitude towards sex that is unworthy of them. They model abusive and angry relationships, unfaithful relationships, degrading relationships. The child watches it all, memorises it all and repeats it all.

Schools can also fail their students. Classes will do pencilled drawings of reproductive organs, and become experts on how "tadpoles" swim upstream and how babies grow in the womb. They will be introduced to the horrors of sexually transmitted diseases in that theoretical, antiseptic way. Some of the luckier ones may get to roll a condom onto a banana and giggle their way through a lecture on dating. The mind is fed but not the heart.

The questions students want to ask, they are not allowed to, as it is not in the syllabus. So answers must be sought on the net, in magazines and on the back of toilet doors - they are certainly not in text books. We must do a better job of teaching our children about sex and intimacy. They have little need to hear more about the biology of sex, for this is generally done well in schools. Nor do they need to hear about the morality of sex from adults with dehydrated loins who have no connection with the virility of a teenager.

They want to know what they can, where they can, why they can, when they can, how they can, if they can. They no longer need to know how they measure up in an environment of unconditional love, but how they measure up outside, in the swamp of life where love, like and lust churn dangerously. It is not just smut and titillation that students want, for they can get these quite easily these days. What they want is something more elusive, something rare, and that is wholesome advice on how to be a man, how to be a woman.

5. Emotional control Prisons are typically full of men, and in particular men who would not be there if they had mastered the art of counting to 10 before acting. Acting impulsively usually means that only the reptilian part of the brain is exercised. Other parts of the brain need to be if students, particularly boys, are to avoid making poor decisions and enlarging our prison population. Fight or flight behaviours may be genetically useful for hunting mammoths or defending a cave from intruders, but are less useful in contemporary suburbia or in seeking acceptance as a mature and measured member of modern society.

6. Finance The level of ignorance in students about financial matters can be frightening. This is revealed in the number of young adults and students who get into financial trouble through an inability to budget, a failure to understand the traps associated with credit cards and incapacity to retire debt. Persistently living beyond their means, relying too much on parental help and making unwise choices on hire-purchase, telephone plans and leasing arrangements are just some of the problems resulting from students not being taught about financial matters. In a society increasingly riven with debt, wealth generation and wealth management need to be taught. The rudiments of saving, and the traps to avoid when borrowing or getting involved in get-rich-quick schemes, need to be shared with our students if we expect them to manage financial affairs appropriately.

7. Practical things Discussions about the absence of life-skills in the young are often laced with horrified tales of fungal growth in bathrooms, kitchen benches piled high with unwashed dishes, ovens blackened by neglect and bedroom carpets disappearing under a rising tide of discarded clothes. Some students have never been taught to cook. If they have, they have probably not been taught to clean up afterwards. A range of home maintenance skills is frequently missing in our students, including how to maintain a lawn mower, change a tap washer, turn off the water if there is a leak, recycle waste, conserve water and reduce the power bill.

8. Manners It is probably all right for a child to eat like a pig, but they must know they are eating like a pig and be able to stop when the situation demands it. Failing to learn many other social behaviours can result in students being disadvantaged. The simple act of sending a thank-you message for a present, shaking hands appropriately, knowing what cutlery to use, addressing a letter correctly, understanding what "formal" means and knowing the art of good conversation are just some of the skills at risk of extinction in the lives of too many of our young.

9. Responsibility Many students live voyeuristic lives. They like to watch. Watching is safe. You bear no responsibility, accept no accountability. "Spectatoritis" is rife. Many of today's teenagers are screenagers. They look, comment and criticise from the comfort of the couch. The child then becomes an adult who finds it difficult to do much other than to watch and excuse themselves from accepting responsibility. Students need to be taught how to take ownership of their own behaviour, how to be leaders, how to make appropriate decisions, and how to serve others well.

10. Resilience Life cannot be expected to provide a constant stream of undiluted fun, praise and success. If students crumple because they do not get an hourly fix of praise, they may not last long. Self-esteem needs to be built up, but never to a stage that ordinary performance is exalted as extraordinary. "Warm fuzzies" are good, but so too are words of correction if they are shared with wisdom and understanding. Students should not depend on a constant diet of praise. Disappointment happens, so do discouragement and distress, and thus some inner courage is required.

It might be as well to remind some that if the world didn't "suck", they would fall off and that some resilience is needed. The gods play with us all and cause us to laugh and cry. Emotional and physical courage is required. As it is said, we are all born naked, wet and hungry, and things then get worse. Fortunately, things also get better.

This is an edited version of a plenary address Dr Hawkes gave to an international boys' schools coalition conference in Canada and a paper to the Federal Government's review

[Tony Clifton]

Went to the IT mall yesterday and our niece was talking about how the teachers at her high school are insisting on how their school actually invented and built Google even though the students defiantly debated the claim.

I told her about Wikipedia and to look up Google on there and that she should spread the word with her classmates for their next confrontation with these stupid teachers.