Protecting The Roof Over Your Head From A Devious Partner

[GuestHouse]

See there you go, one person's idea of good advice is another person's idea of biased diatribe. You can't please everyone, nor I would argue is it wise to try - No matter how hard we try (or don't try) we'll always all of us make assumptions that are wide of the mark for some people and spot on for others.

But I also think it's not a good idea to state that personal experience is entirely right either - not that is until you are sure the game is over.

Things can always change, and often do.

[a2396]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/-t204086.htm...t&p=2125565 If you want to read more about this topic of usufruct and if it can be revoked by your wife look in this thread......

Scotsman

After reading this link, it would appear that this is a gray area indeed. I have only seen fuzzy and condradictory answers to this. In the end, Thai law does not exactly have a great track record for favoring the rights of a foreigner. In any case, does one really want to end up with an ex-wife as your landllady. I prefer to keep my financial future under my control.

When i read it it is not grey at all!.

Lets take this part of a quote. These are the two interpretations.

If you are legally married to the owner, Thai lawyers disagree on the application of article 1469 CCCT. This article mentions that all agreements made between spouses can be cancelled by the Court at the request of one party, unless agreements affect third parties.

So the article 1469 CCCT mentions that all agreements made between spouses can be cancelled by the Court at the request of one party'.

That is not grey, it is very clear. Ofcourse there is un 'unless'. Third parties. Most usufructs that are made don't have 'third parties' and are as such easy to cancel.

Conclusion 'NOT A GREY AREA'

Then the two interpretations. First one:

According to one interpretation, “publicity” or registration affect third parties and a usufruct can’t be cancelled.

Again a mention of 'third parties'. Meaning without a third party it can be canceled.

This interrpretation is exactly what is said in the article 1469 CCCT.

The othe rinterpretation:

According to the other interpretation, we have to search for the spirit of the law and it looks like Thai law wanted to end all relations between spouses in case of divorce, even usufruct agreements.

Also this interpretation doesn't sound very 'solid'. It says 'even usufructs', but you can include any other kinds like leases, superficies etc.

Conclusion 'NOT A GREY AREA'

And here is the way to get around it. Again!

A way to avoid the application of 1469 CCCT would be to have a second agreement (like a lease) affecting a third party before the Court could cancel your usufruct agreement."

In short it is very clear and not grey at all.

Any contract between spouses can be cancelled.

Any contract between spouses AND a third party can not be cancelled.

Knowing this the best way to go about 'owning' land would be to include someone in the contract, be it your brother, mother, friend, etc. (Just make sure they don't die before you. )

This will be the 'third party' that ulimately will protect your investments.

I presume you are a lawyer practicising in Thailand to have solid knowledge of this issue. I beleive the poster stated that these concepts have not been tested in a court case. Until they are, it has not been defined with certainty. If your premise is correct, ie that the contract can be cancelled by the wife, then some Farangs are living under a false premise, that the agreement between them and the wife is ironclad.

[Heng]

I doubt lawyers will advertise that fact much, no more so than working girls will advertise what non-fatal STD's (herpes, HPV, etc.) they have.

[Khun Jean]

I presume you are a lawyer practicising in Thailand to have solid knowledge of this issue. I beleive the poster stated that these concepts have not been tested in a court case. Until they are, it has not been defined with certainty. If your premise is correct, ie that the contract can be cancelled by the wife, then some Farangs are living under a false premise, that the agreement between them and the wife is ironclad.

Let's say that i am not hindered by having to have clients to survive.

It doesn't have to be tested in court. Both interpretations have the same result. Without a third party a usufructs is not what is currently 'sold' by many lawyers. A third party hinders the sale of land and thus it is not mentioned by many.

A court follows the law, and actually more 'the spirit of the law'. As there is no precedence being used in court it is up to each single judge to make his own decision.

Again, why would someone want to go against the written law. Just have a third party and your 'safe'.

It would in fact be better for a foreigner to not tansfer the landtitle to his/her spouse but get a usufruct directly from the owner. In that case there is no problem, but try to sell that to your spouse, a divorce is imminent.

The problem only exists when a usufruct,lease, etc is between spouses.

Edited August 17, 2008 by Khun Jean

[billd766]

Let's see.... so you are 64 and you're wife is 42. when you met, you were 49 and she was 27. No doubt then she loves you for yourself and because 'you are so hansum'. (So much so that she was prepared to ignore the fact that you were already married.)

Just count yourself lucky, and try to understand that others cannot afford to just move out of their house and give it to the wife if she finds someone better/wealthier!

Well strangely enough When I first met my wife back in 1993 I liked her a lot but as I was here on business my company moved me on elsewhere. I came back in 1994 and picked up on our relationship and by 1996 I had worked out that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her.

Being somewhat of a coward I did not tell my legal wife until 1997 after which I separated and eventually divorced in 1999 and remarried in 2000. My Thai wife never asked me to marry her and only describes me as hansum jokingly. From the day that I met my wife she knew that I was married but was quite happy to be with me.

Further to the fact that you think I am lucky to be able to move out of the house if all else fails just think on my age.

I have worked since I was 15 and I am still working which by my estimate means that I have worked for 49 years so far so luck is only a small part of the story.

Yes I feel that I am very lucky with my Thai wife however this thread is about farangs who have been unlucky.

There are very few threads on TV about farangs who are very happy and content with their marriages because they are too busy enjoying their lives to bother with threads like this.

I am responding because I am working offshore and unable to be with my family.

:D

[teacup]

.......... My Thai wife never asked me to marry her and only describes me as hansum jokingly. From the day that I met my wife she knew that I was married but was quite happy to be with me.

:D

Sorry to chime in but….

I find it disturbing that any woman can be “quite happy” to be with a married man…aka someone else husband .

Just me?

[mrcheshire]

Its the money cupoftea!

[teacup]

Duh…I know that!!!...........But I would have picked out a single guy.

Now what’s about that Buddhist teaching of ….."Stealing someone else husband"…..is a big SIN

Is this a case of yet .....another selective practicing? I thought most of the thai girls are quite religious - esp the country girls!

[choppychugger]

My Wife has made a Thai will in Thai and English leaving everything to me and in the case of her own land and own house (not our house or land) has stated she does not want any member of her family to receive anything. How safe is this?

sorry mate don't believe that for a second. Why are people always trying to prove whos got the better thai bird???

Why are some folks so sensitive about how other folks feel about their spouses?

for the record: it does not concern me personally as i am not married to a Thai lady but i resent people's derogatory comments in this respect. it is against forum rules to call an obvious moron a moron (id est insult ad hominem) but deragotory comments concerning wives or partners of fellow TV-members should be tolerated with a smile?

GIMME A BREAK Heng! in what environment did you grow up to adopt those kind of values?

sorry just read this drivvle, what are you blubbering on about?? Loosen your jockstrap you french ( LATIN ) quoting cheesy wanna be intelligent and morally correct git.

Edited August 17, 2008 by choppychugger

[Heng]

Duh…I know that!!!...........But I would have picked out a single guy.

These gals (lots of them over the hill: over 30, children from other father(s) in tow, saddled with debt, etc.) don't exactly have all kinds of 'options' rolling in.

[teacup]

Heng,……I hear you

Still……what about the already divorced guys……seen plenty of them lurking around everywhere. Sure thought they will be an easier target than the forbidden fruits?

Why go for the still married ones?

I don’t know, but to me……it’s exhibiting a great deal of selfishness that she just doesn't care about the feelings of the wife who is being cheated on…….another woman with women’s feeling.

I absolutely can’t do that, no matter how desperate I am. It’s still ….just not right & disturbing….morally !!

Just me

Edited August 17, 2008 by teacup

[a2396]

I presume you are a lawyer practicising in Thailand to have solid knowledge of this issue. I beleive the poster stated that these concepts have not been tested in a court case. Until they are, it has not been defined with certainty. If your premise is correct, ie that the contract can be cancelled by the wife, then some Farangs are living under a false premise, that the agreement between them and the wife is ironclad.

Let's say that i am not hindered by having to have clients to survive.

It doesn't have to be tested in court. Both interpretations have the same result. Without a third party a usufructs is not what is currently 'sold' by many lawyers. A third party hinders the sale of land and thus it is not mentioned by many.

A court follows the law, and actually more 'the spirit of the law'. As there is no precedence being used in court it is up to each single judge to make his own decision.

Again, why would someone want to go against the written law. Just have a third party and your 'safe'.

It would in fact be better for a foreigner to not tansfer the landtitle to his/her spouse but get a usufruct directly from the owner. In that case there is no problem, but try to sell that to your spouse, a divorce is imminent.

The problem only exists when a usufruct,lease, etc is between spouses.

Yes, good answer and that is what I would do, if I were to take such a step. However, I think many of these foreign gents buy the house in the wife's name & hope for the best, without thinking of all the indelicasies, which might happen later.

[Heng]

Heng,……I hear you

Still……what about the already divorced guys……seen plenty of them lurking around everywhere. Sure thought they will be an easier target than the forbidden fruits?

Why go for the still married ones?

There are plenty around, but it's like when you throw a box of donuts into a crowd of starving people. There isn't much time to choose between Marble Chocolate and Coconut Bavarian.

[jackyseymour]

Duh…I know that!!!...........But I would have picked out a single guy.

Now what's about that Buddhist teaching of ….."Stealing someone else husband"…..is a big SIN

Is this a case of yet .....another selective practicing? I thought most of the thai girls are quite religious - esp the country girls!

Um, you seem to have as much a grip on Buddhism as your fellow Thais TCup. Buddhism is not a religion. Duh.

[a2396]

Heng,……I hear you

Still……what about the already divorced guys……seen plenty of them lurking around everywhere. Sure thought they will be an easier target than the forbidden fruits?

Why go for the still married ones?

I don’t know, but to me……it’s exhibiting a great deal of selfishness that she just doesn't care about the feelings of the wife who is being cheated on…….another woman with women’s feeling.

I absolutely can’t do that, no matter how desperate I am. It’s still ….just not right & disturbing….morally !!

Just me

Maybe his so-called wife doesn't care. If he's got another woman, then she doesn't have to bother herself with him. It all depends on the particulars of a given relationship.

[scotwumman]

Same scenario in Thailand as anywhere else in the Globe - imo.

People are people the world over. If you do not harm anyone in life you are a good person. If you do not make yourself a victim in life you are the best person who ever walked the face of the earth.

The only thing I would add to that is if you have chosen to live in a country that has a different culture to your own live as the romans do

[teacup]

There are plenty around, but it's like when you throw a box of donuts into a crowd of starving people. There isn't much time to choose between Marble Chocolate and Coconut Bavarian.

Ahh…..that explains ….”the licking off just the toppings” syndrome !!

jackyseymour Posted Yesterday, 2008-08-17 20:24:35

"Um, you seem to have as much a grip on Buddhism as your fellow Thais TCup. Buddhism is not a religion. Duh."

religion or not,…. It’s also a matter of your own sense of ethics or conscientious decision.

a2396 Posted Yesterday, 2008-08-17 23:19:01

"Maybe his so-called wife doesn't care. If he's got another woman, then she doesn't have to bother herself with him....."

Well.... 2 wrong doesn’t make it right,......... and it will make more of a mess to cheat than to be honest upfront to the wife.

Just me

[Livinginexile]

I love living in the boonies of Issan. BUT, no way would I consider staying here if not for my Thai wife. She is the reason that I am happy and content here. Why would I go to the trouble and expense of having all sorts of contracts made to protect my investments? I will never be able to own any property in my name so why bother? If there comes a day when she no longer wants to live with me or if I no longer want to live with her, I will pack my personal things in MY truck and head back to MY condo. YES, I know you have all heard it before but the golden rule is to NOT spend more than you can afford to walk away from. The house, land and car are all in her name while I keep a vehicle and the condo in my name. Certainly there would be a lot of hurt and financial loss involved but I wouldn't miss any meals.

You got it right Garry

I bought land and a house for the family in their town up north and all up cost me about $25k, for me that is chicken feed.

I own a condo in Bkk and property offshore so if things go tits up I am well protected, no way I would buy more assets here in LoS without being fully protected.

If you can walk any from the deal and not lose any sleep, your a winner.

[billd766]

Heng,……I hear you

Still……what about the already divorced guys……seen plenty of them lurking around everywhere. Sure thought they will be an easier target than the forbidden fruits?

Why go for the still married ones?

I don’t know, but to me……it’s exhibiting a great deal of selfishness that she just doesn't care about the feelings of the wife who is being cheated on…….another woman with women’s feeling.

I absolutely can’t do that, no matter how desperate I am. It’s still ….just not right & disturbing….morally !!

Just me

Maybe his so-called wife doesn't care. If he's got another woman, then she doesn't have to bother herself with him. It all depends on the particulars of a given relationship.

I assume that you were discussing me which is fine by me.

Actually my marriage was already failing when I first came to Thailand so it really made no difference if my current wife cared about my former wife's feeling as there was no contact between them.

I can sort of understand teacups feeling but all over the world the same sort of things go on as the world goes on.

a2396 I don't have a so called wife but I do have a wife who is legally married to me in the registrars office at Taunton in England on 28th April 2000. If you really don't believe that I can produce a copy of the wedding certificate and the wedding photos.

On the other hand I really don't care what you think about me as I am big enough, old enough and ugly enough not to worry but I do object to your attitude about my wife.

[a2396]

Heng,……I hear you

Still……what about the already divorced guys……seen plenty of them lurking around everywhere. Sure thought they will be an easier target than the forbidden fruits?

Why go for the still married ones?

I don’t know, but to me……it’s exhibiting a great deal of selfishness that she just doesn't care about the feelings of the wife who is being cheated on…….another woman with women’s feeling.

I absolutely can’t do that, no matter how desperate I am. It’s still ….just not right & disturbing….morally !!

Just me

Maybe his so-called wife doesn't care. If he's got another woman, then she doesn't have to bother herself with him. It all depends on the particulars of a given relationship.

I assume that you were discussing me which is fine by me.

Actually my marriage was already failing when I first came to Thailand so it really made no difference if my current wife cared about my former wife's feeling as there was no contact between them.

I can sort of understand teacups feeling but all over the world the same sort of things go on as the world goes on.

a2396 I don't have a so called wife but I do have a wife who is legally married to me in the registrars office at Taunton in England on 28th April 2000. If you really don't believe that I can produce a copy of the wedding certificate and the wedding photos.

On the other hand I really don't care what you think about me as I am big enough, old enough and ugly enough not to worry but I do object to your attitude about my wife.

Sorry, I did not intend to cast any derogatory light on you or your wife (whichever one). I am only making a point that, if the two parties in a union are not caring enough to take adequate care of each others needs, sexual, emotional, etc, the relationship is on shakey ground. Continuation of such a situation, with a lack of caring and understanding eventually leads to an invalid & non-functional relationship - paper or no paper. Some women think as long as the money keeps rolling in & they have a paper in their hand, they have a marriage. No so, in my view.

[F1fanatic]

Heng,……I hear you

Still……what about the already divorced guys……seen plenty of them lurking around everywhere. Sure thought they will be an easier target than the forbidden fruits?

Why go for the still married ones?

I don't know, but to me……it's exhibiting a great deal of selfishness that she just doesn't care about the feelings of the wife who is being cheated on…….another woman with women's feeling.

I absolutely can't do that, no matter how desperate I am. It's still ….just not right & disturbing….morally !!

Just me

Maybe his so-called wife doesn't care. If he's got another woman, then she doesn't have to bother herself with him. It all depends on the particulars of a given relationship.

I assume that you were discussing me which is fine by me.

Actually my marriage was already failing when I first came to Thailand so it really made no difference if my current wife cared about my former wife's feeling as there was no contact between them.

I can sort of understand teacups feeling but all over the world the same sort of things go on as the world goes on.

a2396 I don't have a so called wife but I do have a wife who is legally married to me in the registrars office at Taunton in England on 28th April 2000. If you really don't believe that I can produce a copy of the wedding certificate and the wedding photos.

On the other hand I really don't care what you think about me as I am big enough, old enough and ugly enough not to worry but I do object to your attitude about my wife.

Except elsewhere in the world it's not so easy to find a woman who 'loves you too much'!

Teacup is absolutely right, a woman who is happy to see a man that she knows is married has definite moral deficiencies! I can understand however, that you prefer not to think about, or accept this.

[RusticCharm]

Buddhism is not a religion. Duh.

Opinions vary. 

[billd766]

Sorry, I did not intend to cast any derogatory light on you or your wife (whichever one). I am only making a point that, if the two parties in a union are not caring enough to take adequate care of each others needs, sexual, emotional, etc, the relationship is on shakey ground. Continuation of such a situation, with a lack of caring and understanding eventually leads to an invalid & non-functional relationship - paper or no paper. Some women think as long as the money keeps rolling in & they have a paper in their hand, they have a marriage. No so, in my view.

OK