About 10,000 People Demonstrate In Front Of British Embassy

[Los78]

[Plus]

What's so good about having elections if they are meaningless and cannot produce a working parlament? Junta selected NLA was far more productive and efficient. They were selecting people based on their experience and ambitions. Very few of the current MPs would even want to be there, let alone qualify.

Well have you ever wondered why the governement wants to change the Charter??????

The PAD installed the Illegal military Junta with its antics and made this mess and all the governemnt is trying to do is fix it so we have a workable parliament. How can you let a Currupt military install people with out the people's vote?? Thats dictatorship no matter what spin you put on it!......

Edited August 20, 2008 by Los78

[plachon]

The reason the PAD has so much support is because it's ultimate goal is a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics.

There's clearly a group of people on this forum making big attempts to drag the PAD's name through the mud, but it does seem isolated to this forum and not the reality of the two offices in Bangkok I visit per week where support for the is still very strong.

As far as I know nobody has received a satang for appearing in a PAD protest, and I doubt they would accept it if offered. I know at least one guy who has donated however...

On the contrary , I would say there are very few people on this forum dragging their name through the mud. There are however people who think they don't have legitimacy, question their motives and would like to see their viewpoints/change in viewpoints as well as their actions explained .

Just because you question the motives and actions of a person or group doesn't mean to say you are dragging their name through the mud. In fact you have highlighted one of the major problems, which is that in Thailand questioning IS seen as mudslinging. The important issues become just a blur behind the personal vendettas fought at the front.

As the personal vendettas escalate, Thai social culture facilitates taking sides and before you know it you have a rift running through a major portion of the country.

Only when you take the culture of dependency out of the system will things get better. To do that you need education, economic development and promotion based on merit and ability rather than a system of rewards and favours.

Quite frankly I don't think that is the direction the PAD are headed.

Personally I agree with your assessment of what is needed although I think the line " and neither are the PPP" should be added to your last sentence for even handedness and accuracy.

Quite correct, unfortunately nobody is headed in the right direction. And which direction would that be? Nothing is absolute, it's all a question of shades of grey in Thailand, as elsewhere. The Thai people have to decide what they really want, but not under the current electoral system sham which just produces the likes of Newin, Toxin and Samaks. PAD is just offering an alternative.

In reply to the PAD doing all this for the "good of the country" and to produce squeaky clean politics. I'm afraid that with all the main characters being so inextricably linked over the past 20-30 yrs , I simply can't swallow this possibility. Linked with what? They are a diverse bunch I'd say, from grassroots activists to media magnates and everything in between.

Chamlong is after all the one that helped hoist Thaksin onto his political path. Sonthi L. was his ex business partner. And both have sorely regretted creating this monster, as has been publically stated on several occasions.

Both Samak and Chamlong have very strong military connections and perhaps this is where the stalemate is being fought out with various sideshows in play. How can you bunch Samak and Chamlong together, as is they were good chums and on the same side of the fence. Don't forget that PAD is calling for Samak and his entire cabinet to resign. The fact that they both have "strong military connections" is neither here nor there. So does Toxin when it comes down to it - his cousin was promoted to top job in the Army - but clearly not strong enough to swing a coup in his favour. Chamlong has been a peacenik using his mental strength against the brute physical strength of Samak for some time, and clearly winning hands down when it comes to political savvy. Samak looks a fool on all counts, but hangs on at the top through a combination of accident and design.

On the one hand we have the point of view that the PAD is now defunct because of Thaksins departure and on the other, the only way to achieve influence is through the existence of PAD if your ball isn't in the other court. Maybe we find with a political shakeup some sort of balance can be achieved with a split in the PPP party and then it will be business as usual , without having to play it out on the streets of Bangkok. Who knows, just a guess.

PAD have always called for Thaksin to be tried in a Thai court for crimes against the nation and so they are going to be equally pissed with the fact that he was allowed to slip through the net by a lax bail system, as the fact that he has sought sanctuary in Britain, a country that Thais have traditionally looked up to as a bastion of justice and the phu dee angrit mythology that lingers on. It wrankles them that he may be allowed to use Britain as a base to conduct his sick politics of power lust, revenge and retribution against his political enemies and they are clearly showing UK that if he demands and is granted political asylum, then it will not go down well amongst PAD and their supporters.

But now the ball is firmly in the Thai govt's courts to get the extradition process rolling, which will obviously be slow and ponderous. However, PAD has now made a clear public statement that Toxin's crimes are not going to be forgotten in a hurry and they expect fairness from Britain too, when his case comes up. After all, is he a fit and proper person to own a football club? I'm beginning to think the analogy with Gary Glitter is not so bad after all. I mean who would you prefer as a neighbour - a sick kiddy fiddler or a serial human rights abuser, who stole billions of baht from his own country? A rock and a hard place if Gadd decides to move to St George's Weybridge, I'd posit.

[Bangyai]

You are refering to her arrest I was refering to the courts response to her second application for bail. See the article in Prachathai for the 16th of August.

Could you please post that?

Sorry John, I tried several times to include the article with my post with no success. If however you Google Prachathai and look to the aticle of the 16th you will see in the 7th paragraph the courts reason for refusing her bail. If the courts in this case were wise enough to think she might flee, it is strange that they were not so foresighted when the allowed Taksin to leave.

[Plus]

have you ever wondered why the governement wants to change the Charter?

The House commitee just reported back on their progress - they said that the main stumbling block is inability of MPs to get their hands on governing - they don't want to legislate, they want their hands straight on the money. No wonder they haven't passed any laws in more than half a year.

Who needs this kind of parlament?

[sjaak327]

I think there is an interesting phenomenon happening in Thailand right now that I have never seen before anywhere else in the world and I believe it is confusing many casual observers as to what is really going on. To the average western observer the PAD demonstrators appear to be very similar to liberal protest groups which are seen around the world protesting different events such as the Iraq War, the WTO, the G-7, or in support of issues such as environmental causes, AIDS relief, and efforts to stop the atrocities in Darfur. They sing folk songs, talk about unity and often look like the hippies of generations past. I think because of their appearance many outsiders have come to believe that the PAD is a righteous group demanding democracy and are advocates for the poor and lower classes. What they are looking at however is deceiving. The PAD is essentially an elitist group which not only does not give a dam_n about the poor in Isaan but supports an elitist and royalist system of government harkening back to the Nation, Religion, and Monarchy days of General Sarit. Their leader Sondhi has more or less publicly said his main objective is revenge against Taksin. He uses Taksin's corruption as an excuse but I believe his main objective is to neutralize the threat Taksin and now the PPP have made to the old order of things where the military, the permanent bureaucracy and the traditional elite ran the show. They don't want democracy. Sondhi has said that he believes the rural poor are too stupid to govern themselves and implies that only the middle and upper classes have the ability and even the right to run the country. Yes, it is true that TRT and now the PPP are corrupt but so were just about every other government before them and Sondhi and the PAD have put forth no platform or proposals to deal with corruption if their faction was to take power. It is all about power and has nothing to do with "a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics" as another poster has said. The PAD has disguised a group of right wing lackeys dressed up in the clothing of progressives in an attempt to influence the press, as well as domestic and international opinion in their favor. By the responses of some on this forum I think they have succeeded in pulling the wool over the eyes of more than just a few.

While I'm not a big fan of quoting too much, the above post deserves to be quoted in full. Good that not everyone on this thread is falling for the PAD bullshit

[Insight]

I think there is an interesting phenomenon happening in Thailand right now that I have never seen before anywhere else in the world and I believe it is confusing many casual observers as to what is really going on. To the average western observer the PAD demonstrators appear to be very similar to liberal protest groups which are seen around the world protesting different events such as the Iraq War, the WTO, the G-7, or in support of issues such as environmental causes, AIDS relief, and efforts to stop the atrocities in Darfur. They sing folk songs, talk about unity and often look like the hippies of generations past. I think because of their appearance many outsiders have come to believe that the PAD is a righteous group demanding democracy and are advocates for the poor and lower classes. What they are looking at however is deceiving. The PAD is essentially an elitist group which not only does not give a dam_n about the poor in Isaan but supports an elitist and royalist system of government harkening back to the Nation, Religion, and Monarchy days of General Sarit. Their leader Sondhi has more or less publicly said his main objective is revenge against Taksin. He uses Taksin's corruption as an excuse but I believe his main objective is to neutralize the threat Taksin and now the PPP have made to the old order of things where the military, the permanent bureaucracy and the traditional elite ran the show. They don't want democracy. Sondhi has said that he believes the rural poor are too stupid to govern themselves and implies that only the middle and upper classes have the ability and even the right to run the country. Yes, it is true that TRT and now the PPP are corrupt but so were just about every other government before them and Sondhi and the PAD have put forth no platform or proposals to deal with corruption if their faction was to take power. It is all about power and has nothing to do with "a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics" as another poster has said. The PAD has disguised a group of right wing lackeys dressed up in the clothing of progressives in an attempt to influence the press, as well as domestic and international opinion in their favor. By the responses of some on this forum I think they have succeeded in pulling the wool over the eyes of more than just a few.

While I'm not a big fan of quoting too much, the above post deserves to be quoted in full. Good that not everyone on this thread is falling for the PAD bullshit

If it's all about power why have the leaders the PAD repeatedly refused to form a political party? How come no other political party is being promoted? The only person to yell "coup" over the past few months has been PPP's very own Samak.

It's impossible to deny that Shondi has a very personal grievance with Thaksin, but that doesn't prevent the cause from being just.

Regards,

Another Poster

[Tony Clifton]

(lifeisrandom @ 2008-08-19 12:20:32) *

can someone please explain the PAD to me?

obviously the government knew thaskin was doing a runner if they didnt want him to do a runner he would not have been allowed to leave. wife gets convicted and heads on vacation...

so <deleted> is PAD's role in all of this?

The question really should be, who is paying for all the expenses of these protests? (banners, food, soft drinks etc)

Donations are announced daily on PAD stage, it's not all about money, raincoats, food, water, etc.

[plachon]

I think there is an interesting phenomenon happening in Thailand right now that I have never seen before anywhere else in the world and I believe it is confusing many casual observers as to what is really going on. To the average western observer the PAD demonstrators appear to be very similar to liberal protest groups which are seen around the world protesting different events such as the Iraq War, the WTO, the G-7, or in support of issues such as environmental causes, AIDS relief, and efforts to stop the atrocities in Darfur. They sing folk songs, talk about unity and often look like the hippies of generations past. I think because of their appearance many outsiders have come to believe that the PAD is a righteous group demanding democracy and are advocates for the poor and lower classes. What they are looking at however is deceiving. The PAD is essentially an elitist group which not only does not give a dam_n about the poor in Isaan but supports an elitist and royalist system of government harkening back to the Nation, Religion, and Monarchy days of General Sarit. Their leader Sondhi has more or less publicly said his main objective is revenge against Taksin. He uses Taksin's corruption as an excuse but I believe his main objective is to neutralize the threat Taksin and now the PPP have made to the old order of things where the military, the permanent bureaucracy and the traditional elite ran the show. They don't want democracy. Sondhi has said that he believes the rural poor are too stupid to govern themselves and implies that only the middle and upper classes have the ability and even the right to run the country. Yes, it is true that TRT and now the PPP are corrupt but so were just about every other government before them and Sondhi and the PAD have put forth no platform or proposals to deal with corruption if their faction was to take power. It is all about power and has nothing to do with "a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics" as another poster has said. The PAD has disguised a group of right wing lackeys dressed up in the clothing of progressives in an attempt to influence the press, as well as domestic and international opinion in their favor. By the responses of some on this forum I think they have succeeded in pulling the wool over the eyes of more than just a few.

While I'm not a big fan of quoting too much, the above post deserves to be quoted in full. Good that not everyone on this thread is falling for the PAD bullshit

That Thaksin was more like Sarit Thanarat in word and action than any other PM since the old dictator, kind of lessens the relevance of your thinly disguised rant against Thai progressive politics espoused by PAD. What the sceptics and critics fear, is an ascendant people's participatory, anti-globalisation and consumer capitalist movement, that I imagine represents some elements of PAD ideology, as well as the undeniably, royalist-nationalist crew. In other words, they are diverse, but united by a common distaste for everyting that Toxin did and represented.

[Thai at Heart]

The reason the PAD has so much support is because it's ultimate goal is a common interest shared by most Thais - clean, transparent politics.

There's clearly a group of people on this forum making big attempts to drag the PAD's name through the mud, but it does seem isolated to this forum and not the reality of the two offices in Bangkok I visit per week where support for the is still very strong.

As far as I know nobody has received a satang for appearing in a PAD protest, and I doubt they would accept it if offered. I know at least one guy who has donated however...

On the contrary , I would say there are very few people on this forum dragging their name through the mud. There are however people who think they don't have legitimacy, question their motives and would like to see their viewpoints/change in viewpoints as well as their actions explained .

Just because you question the motives and actions of a person or group doesn't mean to say you are dragging their name through the mud. In fact you have highlighted one of the major problems, which is that in Thailand questioning IS seen as mudslinging. The important issues become just a blur behind the personal vendettas fought at the front.

As the personal vendettas escalate, Thai social culture facilitates taking sides and before you know it you have a rift running through a major portion of the country.

Only when you take the culture of dependency out of the system will things get better. To do that you need education, economic development and promotion based on merit and ability rather than a system of rewards and favours.

Quite frankly I don't think that is the direction the PAD are headed.

How many of the 10,000 protesters have even the slightest incling of what clean government is. Does anyone honestly believe that any Thai politician of any ilk has never taken a slice (even the smallest) slice of the pie?

They have no clear idea for what they are protesting.

[Thai at Heart]

If the UK refuses asylum for Thaksin that would be great already. If PAD's demo help them to make that decision, their effort was not in vain.

It would be a lot worse if the UK decides to grant him refugee status. All hel_l would break lose on Thai side.

Some say all English will be throw out. Sell now I am buying One mans loss is other man's gain

Well just as well there aren't any "English" passport holders.

[Insight]

^ Condescending on another level there. Tarring the entire nation with the same brush, claiming progress is beyond the average Thai person.

10,000 people would (strongly) disagree.

[FatherF]

Maybe the respective governments could do a swap? Thaksin for Garry Glitter?

Just a thought.................................

[Los78]

If it's all about power why have the leaders the PAD repeatedly refused to form a political party? How come no other political party is being promoted? The only person to yell "coup" over the past few months has been PPP's very own Samak.

It's impossible to deny that Shondi has a very personal grievance with Thaksin, but that doesn't prevent the cause from being just.

Regards,

Another Poster

The only reason why PAD dont form a political party is that its too much work for them.... Much easier to go around causing division about any minor topic that they can find. Also Sondhi has too many skeletons in his closet..... He has taken many pieces of the pie back in the day..... He just didnt get enough as what Taksin did so what else can a bitter old man with a huge grudge.......

How can anyone believe he is some Saint or else he and his paid drop kicks would of formed a party by now and actually contributed to making a Thailand a better place...... Oh well what can you expect from military Juntas political wing....

Edited August 20, 2008 by Los78

[Journalist]

^Sondhi doesn't have a reputation of being a Saint - not with the folk I know who have worked for him.

Perhaps PAD is better than the other lot. They certainly don't have much to beat do they !

But wiith Sondhi at the helm and with the reluctance of the movement to fight via the democratic ballot box, I don't see it in binary 'good vs evil' terms at this point. its not yet black and white, just seems to be two cliques fighting for influence.

I hope PAD proves me wrong and transprent government is attained, as thats what folk want.

[Plus]

Thanks to PAD we have some sort of transparency even in this abomination of the government, forcing it do what it is supposed to do - govern the country.

It's quite possible that the latest six measures to help the poor came out in response to PAD's critisism that makes its way into mainstream media as well.

I know it's a bit of a stretch, but they look very much like ad hoc solutions cooked up in a matter of weeks and there's no sign of any serious long term policies or even a sense of direction. Perhaps PAD should demand that to get the government going.

[Thai at Heart]

^ Condescending on another level there. Tarring the entire nation with the same brush, claiming progress is beyond the average Thai person.

10,000 people would (strongly) disagree.

If clean government was an issue where were all these people in Chavalit's or Banharn's time. These protests are not to do with clean government at all, but about resisting change, democracy and misplaced nationalism. The status quo was shaken so much by TRT, that even with over 100 of its people banned, the Bangkok poster boy still couldn't win.

If progress entails appointed lower legislatures, accepting constitutions written under military rule, military coups whenever the few see fit and all the other poppycock being spouted at these rallies, then heaven help this country. 10000 might disagree, I am glad, that is democracy.

[sriracha john]

Looks like PAD reads Thaksin like a book.... of the cheap, dime-store, novel variety...

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thaksin-Seek...ri-t207558.html

Go to first unread: Thaksin To Seek Political Asylum In Britain, claims he and his family are not safe in Thailand

Edited August 20, 2008 by sriracha john

[Tony Clifton]

If it's all about power why have the leaders the PAD repeatedly refused to form a political party? How come no other political party is being promoted? The only person to yell "coup" over the past few months has been PPP's very own Samak.

It's impossible to deny that Shondi has a very personal grievance with Thaksin, but that doesn't prevent the cause from being just.

Regards,

Another Poster

The only reason why PAD dont form a political party is that its too much work for them....

The only reason why PAD does not form a political party is because they once said at the beginning: WE WILL NEVER FORM A POLITICAL PARTY AND REMIN A WATCHDOG!

Much easier to go around causing division about any minor topic that they can find.

Ministers with fake degrees are minor topics?

Ministers promoting murderous sons are minor topics?

Hurried and secret constitutional changes are minor topics?

Secret deals to change border lines are minor topics?

Trying to derail the judiciary to save their criminal asses is a minor topic?

Prime Minister selling his own company for over a billion and not paying once cent in taxes is a minor topic?

I could easily add a hundred more lines.

Also Sondhi has too many skeletons in his closet.....

He has taken many pieces of the pie back in the day.....

He just didnt get enough as what Taksin did so what else can a bitter old man with a huge grudge....

Where are the official accusations/criminal charges on this?

Speculation until someone does or you do bring forward such documents or newsprint.

How can anyone believe he is some Saint or else he and his paid drop kicks would of formed a party by now and actually contributed to making a Thailand a better place......

Oh well what can you expect from military Juntas political wing....

Again, they said right from the start they are not a political party but a watchdog.

Busted myths are in red

Edited August 20, 2008 by Tony Clifton

[sjaak327]

[Again, they said right from the start they are not a political party but a watchdog.

Too bad this particular watchdog is suffering from "selective barking"

[bulmercke]

can someone please explain the PAD to me?

obviously the government knew thaskin was doing a runner if they didnt want him to do a runner he would not have been allowed to leave. wife gets convicted and heads on vacation...

so <deleted> is PAD's role in all of this?

Sorry.....I'm so 'dumbed down' that I can't reply about anything now -

[Plutarch]

Reading the runes of Thai politics is always interesting if for only one reason and that is guessing who is actually batting for whom.

Thaksin was unique in modern Thai politics in that he headed a party which actually constituted a government against which an equally defined opposition was ranged in parliament. Whatever one may say about the suffrage it was a fact that democracy in Thailand enjoyed a respect hitherto not recognised and Thaksinomics became a force worth considering by other Asean countries.

Stability ensued and folk got richer. But then he forgot his old chums and rose above his station actually thinking that he truly was the man chosen by the people instead of a by product of deal brokering finagled by the very coterie he was neglecting. Megalomania is one thing but to forget to spread the take around and not bestowing grace and favours in the time honoured way was unforgiveable and he paid the price.

But the TRT are back in power and his puppet Samak is there to do his bidding. So what's happening?

The war is far from over and all that has happened is that Thaksin has withdrawn temporarily from the field for tactical reasons. He's playing for time but his standard flies high. Trouble is, who will flock to it and how many will nail their colours to his mast?

[Plus]

If clean government was an issue where were all these people in Chavalit's or Banharn's time

Writing the 1997 Constution.

democracy in Thailand enjoyed a respect hitherto not recognised

On the contrary - democracy was dead in the tracks and 1997 Consitution was completely subverted.

forget to spread the take around

PAD is a mass, middle class based movement, it's a lot bigger than Sondhi or whoever else might feel being passed at the cake party.

[Thai at Heart]

If clean government was an issue where were all these people in Chavalit's or Banharn's time

Writing the 1997 Constution.

democracy in Thailand enjoyed a respect hitherto not recognised

On the contrary - democracy was dead in the tracks and 1997 Consitution was completely subverted.

forget to spread the take around

PAD is a mass, middle class based movement, it's a lot bigger than Sondhi or whoever else might feel being passed at the cake party.

It is a mass which at the ballot box is outnumbered by the poor and disenfranchised. So the PAD won't be able to get what it wants until successive governments start rural development and education so that these poor upcountry folk can feel the wealth too. Or is the PAD campaigning for dictatorship?

They were campaigning for Thaksin out. They have their wish. They wanted TRT out. Over 100 people are banned from politics. They have their constitution which was voted for under military rule.

But what do they actually want now? The reason for them campaigning now is very different from that when they started. The message that they are giving changes month by month and day by day. There is only one common theme. Something is wrong and the only solution is to turn back in time viewed through rose tinted glasses.

I am very curious however to which point in Thailand's glorious political and economic history they would like to turn the clock? Secondly, I am very curious as to why they would like to turn the clock back and why this would be beneficial to the country as a whole?

[Journalist]

The only reason why PAD does not form a political party is because they once said at the beginning: WE WILL NEVER FORM A POLITICAL PARTY AND REMIN A WATCHDOG!

This is not a reason. Saying you refuse to do something is not the reason why you don't do it.

Reason goes along the lines of.

....With vote-buying still endemic in Thailand, there's no point contesting an election if there is chronic cheating going on.

[Plus]

PAD was formed with a sole mission in mind - get rid of Thaksin. They never planned to compete with him in the elections - they argued he is unfit to run in the first place.

They demanded solution to Thaksin's lelad problems, ie accusations of corruption. These problems must be adressed in courts not in elections. Calls for PAD to form a party are totally misplaced.

Also, by asking PAD to sort it out via elections you exclude judicial branch and the rule of law altogether as irrelevant.

It is a mass which at the ballot box is outnumbered by the poor and disenfranchised.

So what? Being outnumbered doesn't make you wrong or illegitimate, and it certainly doesn't mean that you can't demand transparency and accountability from the government.

In fact it seems that outside of PAD no one really cares, or that anyone who cares, is aligned with PAD one way or another. There's no "third force", no alternative to PAD, it hasn't manifested itself in the past three years in any meaningful shape or form.

If you want to improve anything in this country, PAD is practically the only way.

[TAWP]

Well have you ever wondered why the governement wants to change the Charter??????

The PAD installed the Illegal military Junta with its antics and made this mess and all the governemnt is trying to do is fix it so we have a workable parliament. How can you let a Currupt military install people with out the people's vote?? Thats dictatorship no matter what spin you put on it!......

With your displayed knowledge of Thai politics and current events there is no further need to ask for your view.

But thanks anyway.

[Journalist]

PAD was formed with a sole mission in mind - get rid of Thaksin. They never planned to compete with him in the elections - they argued he is unfit to run in the first place.

They demanded solution to Thaksin's lelad problems, ie accusations of corruption. These problems must be adressed in courts not in elections. Calls for PAD to form a party are totally misplaced.

Also, by asking PAD to sort it out via elections you exclude judicial branch and the rule of law altogether as irrelevant.

Good answer.

[Los78]

Well have you ever wondered why the governement wants to change the Charter??????

The PAD installed the Illegal military Junta with its antics and made this mess and all the governemnt is trying to do is fix it so we have a workable parliament. How can you let a Currupt military install people with out the people's vote?? Thats dictatorship no matter what spin you put on it!......

With your displayed knowledge of Thai politics and current events there is no further need to ask for your view.

But thanks anyway.

Just trying to balance it up a bit with the so called Thai political experts on this forum...... Maybe you are one. Freedom of speech still exists here does'nt it??.

The Military hasn't toppled a democratically elected governement since I last checked and let's hope it does not do it again....

[poshthai]

what i find disgusting is that a thai cannot enter the uk with a criminal record,and yet taxsins wife is allowed in.Money talks even in england.

[jitagon]

what i find disgusting is that a thai cannot enter the uk with a criminal record,and yet taxsins wife is allowed in.Money talks even in england.

Yes well. I know for a fact that an ordinary Thai wouldn't even bother to try to enter the UK with a criminal record when all he/she has to do is buy off the relevant department to erase any such record. Not something can be done in the UK.