Changing Citizenship

[Jingthing]

For the record, I was not commenting about the condo argument, that was posted as an ALSO to the poster's agreement on my key points about the difference between immigration in Thailand and the west. I personally think it is an off topic item, but I do agree that buying real estate does not give immigration rights in most countries, and in that case Thailand is not very different.

[teacup]

Try it first. If it doesn't work then you can come back and complain again. Otherwise you are just beating on the same bush again and again until you die away one day.

Unless you don’t want one,…..and that is ok too - if you don't think the benefit outweights the cost. However just don’t complain first if you haven’t tried or don’t want to.

Ms. Tea, your comments are inane because you are IGNORANT of Thai immigration laws. There is no way I personally can ever become a Thai citizen under current Thai immigrant laws. I am not even eligible to become a permanent resident. So, no I am not going to "try" that, I might as well try to fly to the moon on a tuk tuk! Talking to you is frustrating because you really do not understand, and aren't willing to learn to understand.

Your problem, as usual, is you can't get your brain around the radical difference between alien race foreigners moving to Thailand and foreigners moving to first world countries with a long tradition of immigration from people of many races. In Thailand, not only is it socially very different, the country's laws strongly discourage this as well.

Hey I’m giving up on you too,

With….

I - have the “can do” or anything is possible attitude

VS

You - have the “can’t do” or everything seems impossible attitude!

And

you also have the problem of being muted and withholding certain fact from our earlier arguments, until now, that …..

“There is no way I personally can ever become a Thai citizen under current Thai immigrant laws.”, - your words.

I assume this is strictly involved the technical issue somehow, but not the “don’t want to, but will complain it away any how”, correct?

If it’s correct, then….

Well if I would have known this fact earlier that you‘re already a dead cat before arrival, then I probably wouldn’t be wasting my time arguing with you on the immigration and citizenship issue. But now I know the real reason.

So let’s just say we’re both wasting our time on each other, huh

Now I'm going back to bed

[Jingthing]

Ms. Tea,

Do you seriously think there is a WELCOME MAT open from Thailand for European descent people to become THAI citizens?

Compare to the websites for CANADA, USA, AUSTRALIA immigration departments which show the clear welcome and clear path.

There is nothing wrong with Thailand that it does not welcome and recruit immigrants this way. That is Thailand's CHOICE. But you act like the reality is different, like Thailand has anything in common with a first world immigrant magnet and IT DOES NOT. It is OK that Thailand is the way it is, it is OK that Thailand is largely a xenophobic society, but lets please not act like it is something which it clearly is not. Do you seriously think it would be politically viable in Thailand if 10 percent of its citizens were Europeans? Of course, it wouldn't, this is Thailand for the Thais land. And the Thai Chinese, which, have you NOTICED are ASIAN descent people, not Europeans?

No need to reply, your dimness level shows this is hopeless.

BTW, Ms. Tea we have talked before and I had already told you that I personally am ineligible here for even permanent resident status. I represent a huge portion of the farangs here in that regard. My discussion points go well beyond my own personal situation anyway.

Edited August 23, 2008 by Jingthing

[cmiuc]

Last weekend, I attended a culture coarse that the Thai MOE is requiring for foreigners wishing to teach here...

In the meeting it was scheduled for the foreigners to sing the national anthem of Thailand... of course, being American, it is not proper to do that...

but you should have heard the 184 voices raised to the top of the roof in singing this... so I think 184 chose their side by singing it...

According to all International rules... it is not proper to sing or give allegiance to another country, but yes to stand in respect to a country is allowable... so in essence... its an 'act of treason' to do so...

And why that was put into the requirements for teaching, does not say much for this countries respect to other countries...

And oh btw... if anyone were to become a citizen of this country, well that means your rights would supposedly be the same as other locals... so example, a huge drop in salary, from your current to maybe 5-10,000 b per month... I'm not sure its worth it.

Edited August 23, 2008 by cmiuc

[hansnl]

I understand why people say they aren't willing to die for their country. But our countries gave many of us alot of what we were to become. People aren't independent units. Families aren't either. There is a bigger picture. To me, it seems very ungrateful to be unwilling to fight for your country if they are directly invaded by a hostile power. That is the condition I feel. Its academic for me though, too old, and too gay!

You are right about the bigger picture, but only, and then only if my, or in this case your country is attacked, literally.

About the academic part:

Too old?

The devil is old!

Too gay?

If you can fight in this academic war of yours, in whatever capacity, I personally don't give a d*mn if you are gay, or not!

[hansnl]

Since when does buying a condo automatically give you citizenship anyway? I have property in the UK, therefore so does my wife, is she granted British citizenship? Of course not. I do beleive though that if the UK made a clause so that all asylum seekers and immigrant benefit seekers had to pick up a weapon and do military service in trashcanistan or iraq the numbers would reduce dramatically. If you become a citizen of a country and the flare goes up I suppose it is only right that you stand to defend it if it is required in the law. A decision you make if you sign.

In the time there still was national service in the Netherlands, before the forces became "professional" a lot of Moroccan and Turkish youths applied for the Dutch Nationality.

Most were frightened off, when they heard military service was part of becoming Dutch.

Nice way?

Alas, now all the immigrants can do the act, and basically stay whatever they were before picking up the Dutch passport.

[hansnl]

Thailand chose to back Japan rather than Farangs in WW2 and Farangs are still less welcome than the Japanese in LOS today............, Not Thai ? = Goodbye! is the way it is, get used to it.

My impression is also that Japanese are more welcome here than farangs, but Japan did invade and occupy Thailand in WW2 with almost no resistance, so saying they chose the Axis over the Allies isn't exactly true, more like they had no choice.

Oh really?

The government of the day was talking nice weather to the Farangs, and secretly making a pact with the Japs.

Try to guess the reason.

It has something to do with colonialism.

Fact is, that at the end the Thai police was fighting with the Japs against the Allies.

[wannascuba]

I do not agree with the phrase "die for your country" because it implies that you have conceded defeat. I would risk my life for my country or a cause and have done so (USA).

WannaScuba

[faranglandoz]

Since when does buying a condo automatically give you citizenship anyway? I have property in the UK, therefore so does my wife, is she granted British citizenship? Of course not. I do beleive though that if the UK made a clause so that all asylum seekers and immigrant benefit seekers had to pick up a weapon and do military service in trashcanistan or iraq the numbers would reduce dramatically. If you become a citizen of a country and the flare goes up I suppose it is only right that you stand to defend it if it is required in the law. A decision you make if you sign.

I don't expect citizen because I have bought a condo, but would expect a long term visa, like Malaysia gives their foreign investors.

Faranglandoz

[gymshark]

According to all International rules... it is not proper to sing or give allegiance to another country, but yes to stand in respect to a country is allowable... so in essence... its an 'act of treason' to do so...

You rarely see people stand when they hear the national anthem in the UK these days, in fact I was the only one that was standing last time I heard it... I would stand for another countries anthem but wouldn't sing it (I don't even sing mine, out of respect because my voice is so bad)

[Arkady]

The OP's question seems pointless. Applying for Thai or any other nationality is a personal matter and usually those who are eligible take a view on whether it would make their life in that country more convenient or not. For those whose countries of origin allow dual citizenship normally the answer is yes i.e. having the nationality of the country in which you reside makes life more convenient in a number of ways. In Thailand it saves visa renewals, work permits and permits ownership of land to name the most important advantages. Making a vow of allegiance is a necessary formality in applying for nationality in Thailand as it is elsewhere in the world. It doesn't place a burden to die for one's adopted country, unless perhaps the applicant is a male of military conscription age. In Thailand there are few circumstances under which a foreign man can become a naturalized Thai while still young enough to be conscripted. Bear in mind that it that the minimum time from arriving in Thailand and getting a work permit to citizenship is about 8 years and few, if any, manage in such a short time.

It is quite difficult for a man to qualify for Thai citizenship. As usual the posts decrying those who apply and raising irrelevant objections are mostly from those who know they will never be qualified to apply for citizenship or even permanent residence. Sour grapes.

[faranglandoz]

Bit of a cheek. Why should I be forced to change my family name to some meaningless name invented by a paper pusher? Wonder if there are any other countries doing this?

I guess it's fair in a way, as Taksin has been christened Frank Sinatra

Well many Chinese families had done it, because when they had it all up, the pros and the cons, ….. they think the benefits outweight the costs, for them.

They are not doing for themselves as now only but for their future generations to come as well.

In western countries many asians change their first name, not enforced by the government. In regards to family names they are normally retained, eg "Bill Wong"

Faranglandoz

[teacup]

Bit of a cheek. Why should I be forced to change my family name to some meaningless name invented by a paper pusher? Wonder if there are any other countries doing this?

I guess it's fair in a way, as Taksin has been christened Frank Sinatra

Well many Chinese families had done it, because when they had it all up, the pros and the cons, ….. they think the benefits outweight the costs, for them.

They are not doing for themselves as now only but for their future generations to come as well.

In western countries many asians change their first name, not enforced by the government. In regards to family names they are normally retained, eg "Bill Wong"

Faranglandoz

My reply above was refering to thailand specifically.

As for western countries situation:

Thats what I also said in my post#61 , same same as yours here

[grtaylor]

Bit of a cheek. Why should I be forced to change my family name to some meaningless name invented by a paper pusher? Wonder if there are any other countries doing this?

Yes - If you become a Japanese citizen, as someone I know did, you are required to take a Japanese name.

[koheesti]

I don't know about Australia, but in the US……..

Many asians often change their names to american names - "by choice", but still carry their Asian last names. It's just a common sense thing to do because they know that westerners have trouble pronouncing their original names, so they take up western names, AMONG OTHER THINGS.….in order to try to be part of the majority and a sense of somewhat belonging. It's just a matter of practicality, so therefore no sweat or put a dent on their prides for them.

I was in China a few months ago and met Chinese named Sophia, Ada, Jason, Jackie, and Rambo. It would seem when dealing with English speaking westerners they take names easier for us. That's nice of them although I think I can handle a Yao here and there.

[gymshark]

Most of my Thai friends have taken an English name in the UK for convenience.

[koheesti]

Who are the "real" american? Every citizen is an American. The only true native americans are Indians,.

American Indians came from Asia. But maybe there is a cut-off date for immigrants? 500 years? 1000 years? 2000?

ALSO, American - unlike Thai, Englsih, French, Japanese, Chinese, Russian, Italian, etc - is a political designation NOT an ethnicity. Just like Austrian, Swiss or Singaporean. Therefore it is MUCH easier to become "American" than Thai.

[Jingthing]

Therefore it is MUCH easier to become "American" than Thai.

Much multiplied by a 1000 and then you have the truth of it. No comparison!

New citizens mass ceremony for new Americans, a common event in every American city, when did you see ONE of these meetings in Thailand for farangs? Note the many Asian faces? Where is the TIT for TAT?

Edited August 24, 2008 by Jingthing

[Austeyr]

From reading some replies some people stated that they wouldn't fight for their country as it was pointless fight over something that is just a lump of soil. As an ex serving Digger my views are slightly different. When i think of fighting for my country i think about what Australia stands for, the people, the culture, the history and the unity we share as citizens regardless of the dirt under our feet. That is what i think about when i give my life to a uniform. So to answer the question from the OP, no i wouldn't be prepared to fight for Thailand because i do not share the above attributes with the people of Thailand.

[Arkady]

"I was in China a few months ago and met Chinese named Sophia, Ada, Jason, Jackie, and Rambo. It would seem when dealing with English speaking westerners they take names easier for us. That's nice of them although I think I can handle a Yao here and there."

I am not sure about China but have lived in Hong Kong where the practice of taking English names was not largely for the convenience of Westerners. Many Hong Kong Chinese who can barely speak any English at all and certainly have no contact with Westerners take English names, the more bizarre and "unique", the better as far as they are concerned. English names are considered cool and used all the time between friends and colleagues. I would guess that the practice in China is now the same.

It was all started by missionaries in the 19th century, who gave Christian names to all their students at mission schools and has assumed a life of its own. The funniest one I ever came across in Hong Kong was a Mr Micro Wong who was a marketing manager for an electronics company. A girl called Polystyrene Woo (Poly for short) was a close second.

Back to the Thai situation I think the original thinking behind it was to make it easier both for Thais to deal with the names and for immigrants to assimilate as new Thais. That seems to have worked very well for Thai Chinese who now proclaim themselves so proudly Thai and try to stop foreigners from coming and competing with them in business. But nowadays new citizens are usually allowed to keep their original names, written in Thai characters as in their alien books. Nevertheless, the regulation requiring citizenship applicants to submit a Thai name that has meaning in the Thai dictionary after getting approval from your local district office, which will check to make sure no one else is using the surname, still exists, I believe. I think the Interior Ministry then takes a view on the suitability of the applicant's foreign name and if it doesn't like it, or thinks the surname is too similar to an existing one, it will either choose the Thai name submitted by the applicant or assign one of its own.

I know of a funny case where a farang who was born in Thailand before 1973 when every one born in Thailand was still entitled to Thai citizenship has his father's farang surname on his Thai ID card, as was the practice then for those born to foreign parents but naturalized by birth. His father, on the other hand, became naturalized later on when Thai names were compulsory for those naturalized through residence. So father and son ended up with different surnames but the son has passed the original farang name to his children.

The Thai system is a bit quirky and inconsistent, as are many things here, but you can see the logic behind the different parts of it. Clearly they must have been overwhelmed at some point by applications for citizenship by Chinese born in Thailand who only had half a dozen surnames which was anathema to the Thai system. So something had to be done. American immigration officers at Ellis Island also used to apply their own form of logic when they assigned English sounding surnames to European immigrants who showed up with unpronounceable names. An affront to their human rights maybe but, no doubt, it helped them assimilate in their new homeland.

[sassienie]

I'd defend myself, family and friends. Countries are just big lumps of dirt, what's do die for? Location means nothing.r

Wrong.

Being a patriot is nothing to do with location or pieces of soil, it is having an affinity and an allegiance with the people of a certain country. Wanting to become a citizen of any other country other than the birth country must be for these reasons and not because of economics or convenience for immigration purposes.

[Arkady]

"QUOTE (gymshark @ 2008-08-21 22:00:28)

I'd defend myself, family and friends. Countries are just big lumps of dirt, what's do die for? Location means nothing."

"Wrong.

Being a patriot is nothing to do with location or pieces of soil, it is having an affinity and an allegiance with the people of a certain country. Wanting to become a citizen of any other country other than the birth country must be for these reasons and not because of economics or convenience for immigration purposes."

Wonderfully idealistic but overlooks the reality that the vast majority of people who become naturalized citizens around the world do so for reasons of economics or immigration convenience. In the natural course of events their kids brought up in the new country will feel more patriotic but a new passport doesn't normally eliminate years of education and cultural conditioning. The Thai approach to loyality to the Kingdom, apart naturally requiring an oath of allegiance to HM, is quite pragmatic here and is only really concerned about dividided loyality vis a vis country of origin when the country of original nationality is at war with Thailand, a reasonable concern.

By the way many people, including myself, have never been citizens of their birth country.

[TexasRanger]

No I wouldn't die for Thailand. I would stand in defence of my extended family though if required, citizen or no citizen.