Ladyboy, Gay, Katoey, King, Queen - Is There A Universal Definition In Thaiand?

[PeaceBlondie]

My boyfriend is not transgendered or transvestite, does not speak in a soprano. However, among his gay friends he may end a sentence in northern Thai with "jao," which is a feminine ending. And when he is about to drown in the river, he gets excited. He went water rafting with a mixed group, Thai and farang, straight and gay. Later one of the straight guys commented about my bf nearly falling off the raft, and he referred to him as a katoey.

In your opinion, what do you think Thais mean by katoey? Does it only refer to transgendereds or transvestites? The loan-word "gay" is very new in Thailand.

In my first year here, two gay Thais told me there were four kinds of gays. I know three kinds were king, queen, and bisexual.

I read Peter Jackson's book about Uncle Go, but that was about a prior generation.

When I taught Thai teenagers, I could not tell where the demarcation point was between gay and katoey. Very blurred.

I chose to post this in the gay forum where we are not allowed to criticize a sexual preference as wrong, perverted, abnormal, etc., but I welcome comments from all.

[Tywais]

If you go to thai-language.com and enter the word "gay" in the top (main) search box you will find an array of definitions covering a wide spectrum. Covering colloquial, slang and formal definitions. Surprised me the variety of terms and phrases there were.

[Jingthing]

That's a good question. I don't have a clue and I suspect the language is in rapid transition phase on sexuality issues. I have noticed sometimes Thai gays refer to anyone who like to bottom, including what westerners would consider regular homoexuals, as ladyboy or kathoey. Not sure whether they think the tops are being hetero, like Mexicans do.

[PeaceBlondie]

That's a good question. I don't have a clue and I suspect the language is in rapid transition phase on sexuality issues. I have noticed sometimes Thai gays refer to anyone who like to bottom, including what westerners would consider regular homoexuals, as ladyboy or kathoey. Not sure whether they think the tops are being hetero, like Mexicans do.

Trying not to post too often yet, but Jingthing, I agree. And I think the clear-cut point you kept making in the ladyboy thread we had a few weeks ago, may not apply here. Not sure where Thais draw the line, so how can we be so sure, here?

[gymshark]

The Thai's I know use the term for a gay that acts girly.

[onni4me]

As far as I know, the gay Thais that I know of are saying that to be gay one chooses to have homosexual life and it's - at least in the traditional life considered pervert - and to be born as katoey is considered more of faith. Just consider the fact that they are invited to important occasions but still put outside the 'society'.

Same time my gay Thai friends are joking about katoey and when finding someones act 'sissy' they often call the person khatoey.

I also knew couple of ladyboys in Kaempaeng Saen when living there and they had their own bar where 'straight' guys went to pick them up and have sex with them later. They told me that some guys prefer them because no need to fear that they get pregnant. NO NEED FOR CONDOM!!! (Sic!)

I don't know any Thais having married to a katoey. They seem to be ashamed to appear with them. Westerners don't seem to be that shy. Although, there is much people that have grudge against gays and one discussion forum seemed to suggest that one should not walk with ladyboy because its so embarrasing. Just hide them somewhere like Thais do...?!

To be 'gay' seems to be popular nowadays. My bf constantly reads me news from pop magazines and such where people ponder whether some celebrity is gay or not. The gossip kingdom is well alive.

I think Thai society has much to do before they can understand gay life. Its against the traditions and some are accusing foreigners coppupting the society. I hope the worsening economics doesn't turn to hatred against minorities.

My bf is asked repeatedly that 'Do you stay with him for money?' and 'How much he gives you per Month?'. Apparently anyone who doesn't look sissy or khatoey just stays with us farangs for money. Just for your information, my bf is well off maybe even better than I am. I suppose Thais consider gay as something sexual and not so much of a matter of heart or family.

[Rionoir]

In English even straight guys sometimes call each other "women" or other such words when they are acting less than masculine... I assume that in Thai they can use these words in the same way? Could be nothing more than that.

[geriatrickid]

The Thai's I know use the term for a gay that acts girly.

grrrrrrrrrr

They don't have smileys with deathbolts shooting from their eyes.

- One day while out with my friend we came across a flooded intersection. She thought nothing of wading through it. I balked and said I'd rather walk around. Told her I wasn't going to step on a live wire or wade through sewage. She called me a katoey.

- My friend says that when I go out with the boys I sit around gossiping and laughing like a katoey. He's gay and he calls me a katoey? Meanwhile, he's the one terrified of spiders. I'm the one that will catch them in a glass and toss them outside.

He was also quite shocked when I told him most of my western friends under the age of 30 shaved downstairs because the girls liked it. And if they didn't shave they at least trimmed. He pronounced such grooming to be for katoeys because men have hair.......

I should get him a copy of Maxim or Blender I guess. Jeez, Steve-O trims and he's manly.

[pauleddy]

MY BF comes from Isaan. According to him, the common slur is that

"XXXXX (name) likes the black peanut" or "likes the black bean".

If you like the black peanut---means yr gay.

I first heard this ages ago, and laughed a lot.

Anyone else heard this?

P

[peter991]

Interesting discussion, PB. My understanding of katoey is either a 'ladyboy' or a serious pre-op or post-op sex change.

I am not too sure about Bangkok 'boys' but the sexuality of Issan 'boys' is incredibly fluid. It's hard for us westerners to understand the lack of rigidly defined sexuality that we are used to. In Farangland, you are either gay, straight or bi. End of question. In rural Thailand at least, they don't have the hang-ups we are taught by parents, school and church.

I think Thailand would qualify for the: 'If It Feels Good, Do It!' tag.

Peter

[farang prince]

As far as I know, the gay Thais that I know of are saying that to be gay one chooses to have homosexual life and it's - at least in the traditional life considered pervert - and to be born as katoey is considered more of faith. Just consider the fact that they are invited to important occasions but still put outside the 'society'.

Same time my gay Thai friends are joking about katoey and when finding someones act 'sissy' they often call the person khatoey.

I also knew couple of ladyboys in Kaempaeng Saen when living there and they had their own bar where 'straight' guys went to pick them up and have sex with them later. They told me that some guys prefer them because no need to fear that they get pregnant. NO NEED FOR CONDOM!!! (Sic!)

I don't know any Thais having married to a katoey. They seem to be ashamed to appear with them. Westerners don't seem to be that shy. Although, there is much people that have grudge against gays and one discussion forum seemed to suggest that one should not walk with ladyboy because its so embarrasing. Just hide them somewhere like Thais do...?!

To be 'gay' seems to be popular nowadays. My bf constantly reads me news from pop magazines and such where people ponder whether some celebrity is gay or not. The gossip kingdom is well alive.

I think Thai society has much to do before they can understand gay life. Its against the traditions and some are accusing foreigners coppupting the society. I hope the worsening economics doesn't turn to hatred against minorities.

My bf is asked repeatedly that 'Do you stay with him for money?' and 'How much he gives you per Month?'. Apparently anyone who doesn't look sissy or khatoey just stays with us farangs for money. Just for your information, my bf is well off maybe even better than I am. I suppose Thais consider gay as something sexual and not so much of a matter of heart or family.

In the legal sense, there are virtually no Thais married to ladyboys because same-sex marriages are not allowed in Thailand. There are numerous relationships between Thai men and Thai ladyboys, but these relationships don't seem to last very long. It is one of the sad facts of life for Thai ladyboys...it is hard for them to find the right partner. By the way, most Thai ladyboys don't like the slang term "katoey" used to describe them. They feel that it is a slur.

[PeaceBlondie]

Farang prince, what do ladyboys prefer to be called - ladyboy? Since you are married to one, where does she and the other ladyboys draw the line between these terms? Color me a confused gay Western man who has seen gay Thais do everything. E.g., my Thai partner just got off the phone with an Isaan lady who is married to a straight man, and my bf was nearly talking soprano the entire time.

[onni4me]

In the legal sense, there are virtually no Thais married to ladyboys because same-sex marriages are not allowed in Thailand.

I am not sure about this but wasn't it so that ladyboys (or whatever i should call them) could get an ID card that stated they were women not men.

At least judging by my nowadays view point, they seem to attract foreign men and marrying with them every now and then.

What comes mentioning short encounters I believe its the social stigma that stops the relationships developing into something more. Much has happened during my life and I would hope to see a World that everyone has the right to be happy in their own way.

[farang prince]

Farang prince, what do ladyboys prefer to be called - ladyboy? Since you are married to one, where does she and the other ladyboys draw the line between these terms? Color me a confused gay Western man who has seen gay Thais do everything. E.g., my Thai partner just got off the phone with an Isaan lady who is married to a straight man, and my bf was nearly talking soprano the entire time.

PB, ladyboy is the term they like better than others. Katoey never was very popular with ladyboys but it was acceptable until the term started to be used in a condescending manner. Like I have said in the past, ladyboys are tolerated in Thailand but not necessarily accepted. Still the situation is better in LOS than in most other countries, where transsexuals are openly mocked or even attacked.

[gymshark]

Still the situation is better in LOS than in most other countries, where transsexuals are openly mocked or even attacked.

Probably only becuase they look a bit like women, I saw a farang tranny walking round Big C in Pattaya a few months ago and the Thai people (and farang) were having a right old giggle. A bit harsh perhaps but your average westerner can't pull it off.

[farang prince]

In the legal sense, there are virtually no Thais married to ladyboys because same-sex marriages are not allowed in Thailand.

I am not sure about this but wasn't it so that ladyboys (or whatever i should call them) could get an ID card that stated they were women not men.

At least judging by my nowadays view point, they seem to attract foreign men and marrying with them every now and then.

What comes mentioning short encounters I believe its the social stigma that stops the relationships developing into something more. Much has happened during my life and I would hope to see a World that everyone has the right to be happy in their own way.

Omni, I totally agree with your wishes too. It is tragic that people simply can't be left alone to live their lives the way they choose. In answer to your first point about whether Thai ladyboys can get an ID card stating they are women and not men...they can't in Thailand. The ID still says what the original sex of the person is. I believe only in the Netherlands can you get an ID that notes your transgendered sex.

[PeaceBlondie]

On one of her trips to the USA, big-breasted, transsexual Bambina surprised the American immigration agent with her male passport. Same with Beautiful Boxer, I suppose (sorry, I forget her name).

[farang prince]

On one of her trips to the USA, big-breasted, transsexual Bambina surprised the American immigration agent with her male passport. Same with Beautiful Boxer, I suppose (sorry, I forget her name).

Hehehe. Yes, we get that reaction a lot too PB. The Farang Princess is small with delicate features and is ordinarily thought to be a woman...until the passport comes out. In the USA, no one ever guesses that she is a ladyboy...thank God.

[yabbit]

I believe only in the Netherlands can you get an ID that notes your transgendered sex.

you can get the sex on your id changed in many western countries, including the USA.

for transgender people it seems in europe or usa it is better for them from a legal point of view but they are not accepted in the society in Thailand it is the other way around.

[AlexLah]

OK from what learned from my Thai TG friends.

They have their own language.

For example a fully operated will be called: Nang Faa (Angel).

Not fully operated will be : Ladyboy.

That is what they told me.

[farang prince]

I believe only in the Netherlands can you get an ID that notes your transgendered sex.

you can get the sex on your id changed in many western countries, including the USA.

for transgender people it seems in europe or usa it is better for them from a legal point of view but they are not accepted in the society in Thailand it is the other way around.

Yabbit, you can't change the sex on your ID in the USA since the Patriot Act went into effect.

[yabbit]

Yabbit, you can't change the sex on your ID in the USA since the Patriot Act went into effect.

that is new to me, strange. how would this have any thing to do with being patriot or not.

[farang prince]

Yabbit, you can't change the sex on your ID in the USA since the Patriot Act went into effect.

that is new to me, strange. how would this have any thing to do with being patriot or not.

The Patriot Act federalized state-issued drivers' licenses so that they must all comply with federal mandates. One of those mandates is the accurate reporting of an individual's natural gender. The U.S. Government, by the way, requires the original gender of a person be listed on passports. So I don't know where you got your information, but I'm afraid you are wrong. Wish that wasn't the case.

As far as I know, only the Netherlands allows transgendered individuals to put their transgendered sex on their official identification cards or passports. If you know of other countries that allow this, Yabbit, I would be most interested.

For those of you not familiar with the Patriot Act, it was passed after the 9/11 attacks. It provides sweeping federal legislation that allowed government eavesdropping of telephone calls and internet transmissions. Among the myriad mandates, it tightened the issuance of identification cards so that they must now be uniform accross the country.

Edited August 27, 2008 by farang prince

[PeaceBlondie]

I am still not sure, but let's see if we can summarize what we learned so far.

The Thai online dictionary gave us many gay-related Thai words that had overlapping definitions.

Some Thais use it to refer to a gay man who acts girly, or who acts as a sissy.

Thais might even jokingly call a straight man a katoey if he is not masculine enough, or if he shaves his pubes.

Thai ladyboys prefer the term ladyboy rather than katoey.

Some post-op's are called "Angel."

I think the Thais use a lot of conflicting terms and may not be too great at distinguishing between various types of males who wish to have sex with men.

[yabbit]

If you know of other countries that allow this, Yabbit, I would be most interested.

you might want to read this

http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/birth-certificate.html

according to this web site http://www.transgenderzone.com/library/legal/7.htm it is possible to obtain new documents including passports, National Insurance cards and driving licences in a new name and gender.

i did not read every thing in details, it seems it is not 100% clear.

[cophen]

Some Thais use it to refer to a gay man who acts girly, or who acts as a sissy.

There are the phrases 'Gay King' & 'Gay Queen' to denote who's doing what to who as well.

[farang prince]

If you know of other countries that allow this, Yabbit, I would be most interested.

you might want to read this

http://www.tsroadmap.com/reality/birth-certificate.html

according to this web site http://www.transgenderzone.com/library/legal/7.htm it is possible to obtain new documents including passports, National Insurance cards and driving licences in a new name and gender.

i did not read every thing in details, it seems it is not 100% clear.

Yabbit, I like in the Philippines right now. But I'll have my son in Colorado check on the validity of changing a birth certificate. I am highly suspicious of this. My wife was almost deniend entry into the USA because she was a transsexual. But if I am wrong, I will be most happy about it. Unfortunately, it will not change my wife's legal status in Thailand.

[yabbit]

Unfortunately, it will not change my wife's legal status in Thailand.

one way to see it is that she is accepted in Thailand, if you are accepted does it matter that much when it come to certificates. it is better to be accepted and not have the certificates than have the certificated and have the whole society reject you.

[yabbit]

But I'll have my son in Colorado check on the validity of changing a birth certificate.

Prince,

you migth want to ask the question in this forum http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php it is a transgender forum with a big USA community so they will know better.

[phayao]

As far as I know, only the Netherlands allows transgendered individuals to put their transgendered sex on their official identification cards or passports. If you know of other countries that allow this, Yabbit, I would be most interested.

In Spain you can change the sex on your DNI (National Identification Card) or Passport, EVEN if you are NOT operated. It requires some red tape anyway.