Tractors Again.

[Lickey]

On other posts ive seen the prices/litres per rai ect, but no maintainance costs.

Lets say for eg ive just bought a Ford 6610, 14 years old,[was 1994 the last year they were mass-produced?]

Ive paid 250.000bht,hours? the counter is broke!!

Now before i put it to work i want a full service,

Engine oil and filter,

Diesel filters and pre filter changed,air filter oil bath/element renewed/cleaned.

Fan belts checked for cracks replaced as ness

Cooling system flushed and radiator matrix cleaned out.And pressure tested for leaks

Battery level and a heavy discharge test carried out, also alternator output.+clean dirty terminals.

Tappetts adjusted, and at the same time check valve springs for breakage and valves for eccesive side-play.

Fuel lines for chaffing and clamps tight on injector pipes.

Water pump bearing side play checked and the gland leakage hole is not blocked or shows signs of leaking.

All fixings are secure and ancillarary equipment is in working order.

So thats the engine area,

Check/change if ness the gearbox/axle oils/hydraulic oil.

Grease all nipples/moving joints/steering system fluid/filters.

Check/replace worn joints

Check wheel nut tightness,tryes for gashes pressures ect, all frame fixings for security ect,

Add-ons.

The front blades hardened cutting strip is totally fer,,fr, finished, needs replacing, the ploughs 4 discs are 50% gone, need replacing.

Question is, how much would all or part of the above cost before i could use a re-liable tractor?

Part 2.

So now i can use my tractor, and i want to heap up some building rubble bil has dumped there, i inadvertantly catch a sharp piece of steel with the rear tyre,causing a 1ft gash, i dont have a spare so how much will a call-out cost and a new tyre and tube?

Right, got that fixed, now im plowing between some trees, im looking in front and at the discs, i dont see a piece of wood fall into the fan belts and snap them, i dont smell the boiling hot water because of a back wind, i dont see the red charging light on the dash because im concentrating where im going ect, the engine comes to a slow grinding halt from full throttle.{ the belt guards are missing}

So how much will a total engine rebuild cost?

Part 3,

Now whats that white/blueish smoke from the exhaust? must be a leaking injector,

How much for a set of exchange injectors?

Just dropped the discs in and some black smoke from the exhaust, normal as the engine gets up to speed, but now she black smokes all the time, even under 70% load, seems like the injector pump is over-fueling,

So how much for an exchange/factory recon/2ndhand injector pump? + fitting.

In part 3, all blocked filters can be ruled out, they were all done at service?

Parts 2/3 are of course worst case scenarios, but shit does happen on a daily basis in farming.

Thanks for replys and some ideas of costs,

Lickey..

[stoneman]

Lickey...

I think the best bet would be to have the guy that comes by in his tuk-tuk that buys scrap metal to take a look and give you an estimate...And then use that money for a down payment on a new one...

Just joking, but you are right, it would be good if anyone contemplating buying a used tractor was aware of these costs...All above and beyond the cost of the tractor...

I really want to buy a tractor, but just can't rationalize the cost....So I will continue to hire a tractor when I need it...

Stoneman

[Gary A]

I too thought about all the grief that can come from a used tractor. I didn't want to have to face that situation. I'm not even a farmer but I bought a new one. Unfortunately my wife insists on actually putting me to work once in a while. Normally one of her nephews does the work. He is an artist with that tractor but he is not always available. Another nephew is careless and never looks at anything. That's why I actually do some of the work. I don't want nephew number two on my tractor. I now have a total of 331 hours on my tractor and the first service was done for free by the dealer. The little EF312 Yanmar has been flawless so far.

[Badbanker]

This a post that Maizefarmer should and I am sure will address specifically and verbosely as this is his business.

I also note that http://www.jssr.co.th has 20 LARGE tractors available for auction. Some of then look very good!

Badbanker

On other posts ive seen the prices/litres per rai ect, but no maintainance costs.

Lets say for eg ive just bought a Ford 6610, 14 years old,[was 1994 the last year they were mass-produced?]

Ive paid 250.000bht,hours? the counter is broke!!

Now before i put it to work i want a full service,

Engine oil and filter,

Diesel filters and pre filter changed,air filter oil bath/element renewed/cleaned.

Fan belts checked for cracks replaced as ness

Cooling system flushed and radiator matrix cleaned out.And pressure tested for leaks

Battery level and a heavy discharge test carried out, also alternator output.+clean dirty terminals.

Tappetts adjusted, and at the same time check valve springs for breakage and valves for eccesive side-play.

Fuel lines for chaffing and clamps tight on injector pipes.

Water pump bearing side play checked and the gland leakage hole is not blocked or shows signs of leaking.

All fixings are secure and ancillarary equipment is in working order.

So thats the engine area,

Check/change if ness the gearbox/axle oils/hydraulic oil.

Grease all nipples/moving joints/steering system fluid/filters.

Check/replace worn joints

Check wheel nut tightness,tryes for gashes pressures ect, all frame fixings for security ect,

Add-ons.

The front blades hardened cutting strip is totally fer,,fr, finished, needs replacing, the ploughs 4 discs are 50% gone, need replacing.

Question is, how much would all or part of the above cost before i could use a re-liable tractor?

Part 2.

So now i can use my tractor, and i want to heap up some building rubble bil has dumped there, i inadvertantly catch a sharp piece of steel with the rear tyre,causing a 1ft gash, i dont have a spare so how much will a call-out cost and a new tyre and tube?

Right, got that fixed, now im plowing between some trees, im looking in front and at the discs, i dont see a piece of wood fall into the fan belts and snap them, i dont smell the boiling hot water because of a back wind, i dont see the red charging light on the dash because im concentrating where im going ect, the engine comes to a slow grinding halt from full throttle.{ the belt guards are missing}

So how much will a total engine rebuild cost?

Part 3,

Now whats that white/blueish smoke from the exhaust? must be a leaking injector,

How much for a set of exchange injectors?

Just dropped the discs in and some black smoke from the exhaust, normal as the engine gets up to speed, but now she black smokes all the time, even under 70% load, seems like the injector pump is over-fueling,

So how much for an exchange/factory recon/2ndhand injector pump? + fitting.

In part 3, all blocked filters can be ruled out, they were all done at service?

Parts 2/3 are of course worst case scenarios, but shit does happen on a daily basis in farming.

Thanks for replys and some ideas of costs,

Lickey..

[damo]

My father in Law has a Rot hai, a massey. I ask the missus about the tractor, she said her dad recapped (i think thats what she meant) both of the rear tyres at a cost of 50,000 baht. She said everything in general is not cheap and if you buy a second hand unit you allways have your hand in your pocket doing repairs. One of the many jobs my FIL does is fixing all the local delapidated tractors. I would just purchase new and care for it.

DAMO...

[Lickey]

Hi Stoneman, good to see you back online again, i understand you have quite a few rai of rubber, perhaps some producing? and you still dont need to buy a tractor, Im totally in agreement with you, even brand new, you/thai driver can ruin a tyre, you have the service costs/driver ect.and as Damo informed us, 1 tyre [recapped/re-tread/re-mould] can cost 25,000bht, thats my farm profit gone for 2 months.

GaryA, its good to have a driver you can trust, but it seems like the other fellow is a "watch me,its easy" type of driver, also good to have a new tractor just for the warranty ect, but i dont think gashed tyres are covered by this, would be interesting to know how much a rear tyre for your Yanmar would cost, Thanks.

Badbanker, yes, all auction tractors 'look' good after a steam clean and a bit of tyre black ect, but do they give any warranty on these? it was 24hrs in UK, so you had to get it home and into the ground a bit quick to test it, do they do that here?

Thanks all, Lickey..

[Gary A]

Both ten rai parcels of land had to be cleared. Unfortunately there were MANY thorn trees in the jungles. I had thorns in both front tires several times. I was very lucky the the rear tires seem to have been spared. The tractor has been abused by me but has had no problems. It's a tough little machine. I have no idea what replacement tires cost and I don't want to find out. Removing thorns and patching tubes for the front tires cost less than 100 baht each time. Lowering the dozer blade raises the front of the tractor off the ground so it's easy to take the front tires off.

[stoneman]

Hi Stoneman, good to see you back online again, i understand you have quite a few rai of rubber, perhaps some producing? and you still dont need to buy a tractor, Im totally in agreement with you, even brand new, you/thai driver can ruin a tyre, you have the service costs/driver ect.and as Damo informed us, 1 tyre [recapped/re-tread/re-mould] can cost 25,000bht, thats my farm profit gone for 2 months.

GaryA, its good to have a driver you can trust, but it seems like the other fellow is a "watch me,its easy" type of driver, also good to have a new tractor just for the warranty ect, but i dont think gashed tyres are covered by this, would be interesting to know how much a rear tyre for your Yanmar would cost, Thanks.

Badbanker, yes, all auction tractors 'look' good after a steam clean and a bit of tyre black ect, but do they give any warranty on these? it was 24hrs in UK, so you had to get it home and into the ground a bit quick to test it, do they do that here?

Thanks all, Lickey..

Lickey...

Yes , we should start tapping next year...the locals are saying that they are big enough to tap now, but I am willing to wait...Last month I looked at 40 rai over in your direction...They were 5 years olds and the idiot that owned them had tried to tap them...really screwed up the whole thing...Also got my avocados doing well. Will get my first fruit in a month or so...Not many this year but should be good next year...Have 65 trees in the ground and, at least 35 should produce next year. Have not been in Nam Sum for several months..Seems like we are just always too busy...But promise I will get by and see you one day...Still have your number in my phone directory..

Stoneman

[Maizefarmer]

There are 2 issues here: firstly the importance of checking over comprehensively any tractor you intend to purchase – so as to avoid the cost of any “hidden suprize” (and some very expensive things can be easily hidden from a buyer at point of purchase unless they know what to look for and how to look for it).

Secondly – the cost of spares as part of any overall maintainence program. There are 2 spare markets in Thailand: one is the genuine spares market, which is run be a company called Anglo Thai (the franchise holders for Ford/New Holland in Thailand), and the so-called “copy” /counterfeit market, which are components made up and down the land – either with “Ford” stamped on the part, or with “Ford” written into the packaging graphics. Suprizingly, I have on many occassions seen counterfeit Ford parts that are as least as good as the genuine part I fnot better on occassion, but as a rule they tend to be inferior. Oil and hydraulic filters are the one counterfeit part you should avoid like the plague – pay the extra for the real Mc Coy – it will pay you back 10 fold over the years. Anyhow – back to the subject.

So just what would the parts Lickey highlight cost Thailand – 1st figure is genuine part, 2nd figure is “copy part” prices:

1) Engine Oil and filter: Baht 200 / Baht 100 max

2) Full set of belts: Baht 400 - 600 / Baht 300

3) Fuel filter: Baht 500 / 200

4) Air Filter: Baht 720 / 400

5) Rad flush and Pressure Test: BAHT 600 – 900

6) Injectors full set: Baht 4200 / 3900

7) Fuel Pump (exchange): Baht 900 / 500

8) Hydraulic filter Baht 320 / 100 plus

9) Air Cleaner Assembly: Baht 2700 / Cartridge Baht 200

A Full Service carried out to include attention paid to the following:

1) Tappet adjust

2) Valve Spring inspection

3) Valve inspection

4) Alternator Test

5) Water pump bearing side play inspection

6) All gearbox/axle and hydraulic oils – check levels:

7) Grease all service points

8) Inspect all ball/hitch and other joints

9) Check tyre pressures and inspect for side wall and tread damage

Most of the above I would include in a Full Service. A full Service takes me between 4hrs and 7hrs, and assuming all fluids and all filters are replaced, would be charged out around Baht 10 000. Any parts replaced would be charged out at parts cost, plus labour per hour at Baht 1100.

A full inspection for a buyer prospective buyer would take me around 3 – 4hrs and would be charged out at half day or full day plus fuel costs - around $100 – 150.

Plough discs – depending on Diameter and mass from Baht 400 – 700 for local made, imported from Brazil around Baht 600 – 1100.

Rear Tyre – say a 18.4R34.6 (typical 6610 rear size) Baht 12 000 – 15 000 plus

Engine rebuild – depending on amount of damage but could run as high as Baht 200k plus. E.g. crankshaft kit is around Baht 15 000 – and good chance that would be needed if the engine ceased – amongst a load of other parts.

[Nickthegreek]

I really want to buy a tractor, but just can't rationalize the cost....So I will continue to hire a tractor when I need it...

Stoneman

In some ways I wish that this year I had done just that..

I bought a Kubota L2000 about ten years old I guess and third hand,maybe more..here s the story..

About half way through the middle of July the Father in law says " Nick not sure we will be able to grow rice this year" Nick over the moon after shelling out 310,000 baht for land and all the rice we need..!

So we sit down to chat about the options,our land is full of water about 2 feet deep and because we are in the middle of rice paddies we cannot drain off the water as everyone else was ahead of us with their planting..

So I ask what can we do, father in law says" wait,maybe it will dry out and we can turn it over with the massey or pay someone to do it now"

I say" well how much to get it done,its fifty rai and full of water and 4 feet high grass at this point,the approximate cost was 350 baht per rai twice...I think to myself,wow 35,000 baht how much is a second hand tractor...???"

So of we go to look at second hand tractors,in our area its buyer beware,the same model I purchased was between 80,000 to 100,000 baht and no extras included,so as it happens and dont we all love the Thai way, how someone, knows someone, who has one for sale..!!

So day two we go off to look at this L2000 it 55000 baht...I think ok,know what to check on a diesel engine,but it ends there...Father in law checks it over with his brother and they both agree engines ok and its comes with a 4 disk plough and the rice water wheels( sure they have real name)

They decide that we need to think about it for a day or two,so we decide to go and look at more dealers on day three,same prices very expensive and a cant give a sh1t type attitude,at this point I am bored and have spent another 2000 baht on fuel driving around...

Day four we call to the guy selling it and he delivers it for free,result...!!!

So day 5 off Father in law gives it a service,top chap...

Day 6 off I go to the rice paddies,all excited it works...

Day 10 I have done about 25 rai at this stage,and this horrible gearing noise starts,I speak with the FIL,he says dont worry carry on...I know at this point its not good..end of day ten I need to come home,so we ask the FIL to take it to the engineer.

Day 11...its need new gears for the right breaking system..10,000 baht

Day 14 I go back to the farm....

Day 15 back to the paddies,all good for another 3 days and yes you guessed it left gears broken...another 9000 baht...

Well now its like new again,I work my little socks off to get finished and job done...I then drive out of the paddied all chuffed its done..stop the tractor and go for lunch...

When I come back,dam thing wont start flat battery,so FIL goes back to the house come back with a battery, of we go again..

At this point in time the tractor has cost me 55,000 plus 19,000 and not sure if the alternater is broken and it needs a new tyre....

I guess my statements on the issues are CHEAP IS DEAR and unless you can x ray the insides be very very very careful..

I am laughing about now and I am sure that the tractor will be more than useful in the coming years,but I do wish I had paid someone to do the job for me...

Nick

[Lickey]

MF, thanks for your detailed post, the only thing amiss was the 'injector pump price' i think you gave the price for a lift pump, so after a google i found this price,

5000, 5600, 6600, 5610, 6610, 7600, 7700, 6700, 7710

*All Non-Turbo 4-cylinder Tractors

Throttle Lever is on outside of Injection Pump (Simms/Minimec)

P5598/P5498 $925.00

plus $250.00 refundable core charge

Perhaps a thai recon pump is cheaper, no idea..

5000, 5200, 5600,

6600, 6610, etc.

256 cui

268 cui

4-Cylinder Diesel Engine

*Includes Fuel Injection Pump

Non-Turbo

$4,500.00

Plus $1,000 Core Exchange

Also on the same site, a re-con engine is as above.

On the link below are all makes of tractor, ok its from the US, but will give people some ideas price wise.

http://www.brokentractor.com/esales%20directory.htm

Cheers Lickey..

[Lickey]

Nick, a great post, and an interesting read, seems like you only have 2 problems to iron out now, tyre and 'possilbe' alternator, but it done the job you wanted it for so thats a plus, from what i understand from locals, paddy work for a disc pulling tractor in deep water and mud is 100% full throttle all day, so it doesnt get bogged down ect.

If it does the paddies for the next 2 years without problems or major costs, youve saved on hireing and also got a tractor that dosent owe you anything,whereas if you bought new, perhaps 400,000bht and up, it would take a long time [unless you hired it out,therefore open to abuse ect] to get money back on this,

Seems like GaryA has it sorted, nice 4wd Yanmar, blade,rotovator,discs, used on 20 rai, primarily for paddy and clearance work, Gary, if you dont mind, what was the total cost and warranty for Yanmar and add-ons please,

Thanks, Lickey..

[Badbanker]

I may stand corrected but each time I have had a tractor diesel injector pump rebuilt by Muang Thai Diesel, it has been in the region of less that 3,000 baht and injectors servicing for less than 2,000 baht.

Pickups are 3,000 for a clean service of pump and injetors and take back to original specs.

Seems fuel economy improves dramatically and exhaust smoke almost disappears with normal performance!

They do have 2 very large testing machines.  A Bosh and a Japanese one that all punps get put on and adjested and serviced.

BB

MF, thanks for your detailed post, the only thing amiss was the 'injector pump price' i think you gave the price for a lift pump, so after a google i found this price,

5000, 5600, 6600, 5610, 6610, 7600, 7700, 6700, 7710

[Gary A]

Nick, a great post, and an interesting read, seems like you only have 2 problems to iron out now, tyre and 'possilbe' alternator, but it done the job you wanted it for so thats a plus, from what i understand from locals, paddy work for a disc pulling tractor in deep water and mud is 100% full throttle all day, so it doesnt get bogged down ect.

If it does the paddies for the next 2 years without problems or major costs, youve saved on hireing and also got a tractor that dosent owe you anything,whereas if you bought new, perhaps 400,000bht and up, it would take a long time [unless you hired it out,therefore open to abuse ect] to get money back on this,

Seems like GaryA has it sorted, nice 4wd Yanmar, blade,rotovator,discs, used on 20 rai, primarily for paddy and clearance work, Gary, if you dont mind, what was the total cost and warranty for Yanmar and add-ons please,

Thanks, Lickey..

The Yanmar cost me about 500,000 with everything included. It had a one year warranty. I bought the Yanmar rather than the Kubota because of the syncro shift. The lever is mounted on the steering column. If you do a lot of forward and reverse it sure beats changing gears with the transmission lever. Nice and smooth forwards and backwards with no gear grinding.

I have the EF 312 which is 31 HP. I don't think they offer that model anymore. They have gone with the EF 352. The EF 352 is 35 HP and other than that the tractor is identical. I think just the tractor sells for about 390,000 baht.

[Maizefarmer]

MF, thanks for your detailed post, the only thing amiss was the 'injector pump price' i think you gave the price for a lift pump, so after a google i found this price,

5000, 5600, 6600, 5610, 6610, 7600, 7700, 6700, 7710

*All Non-Turbo 4-cylinder Tractors

Throttle Lever is on outside of Injection Pump (Simms/Minimec)

P5598/P5498 $925.00

plus $250.00 refundable core charge

Perhaps a thai recon pump is cheaper, no idea..

5000, 5200, 5600,

6600, 6610, etc.

256 cui

268 cui

4-Cylinder Diesel Engine

*Includes Fuel Injection Pump

Non-Turbo

$4,500.00

Plus $1,000 Core Exchange

Also on the same site, a re-con engine is as above.

On the link below are all makes of tractor, ok its from the US, but will give people some ideas price wise.

http://www.brokentractor.com/esales%20directory.htm

Cheers Lickey..

Yes Lickey - I did give the price for the lift pump - because you said "fuel pump" - you did not say injector pump.

[Lickey]

MF, Dont mean to contradict you but below is a copied section from my OP,

Just dropped the discs in and some black smoke from the exhaust, normal as the engine gets up to speed, but now she black smokes all the time, even under 70% load, seems like the injector pump is over-fueling,

So how much for an exchange/factory recon/2ndhand injector pump? + fitting.

On the other hand, BadBanker has mentioned prices of 3k for injector pump overhaul and 2kbht for injector overhaul, which is very resonable,

Thanks for the prices Gary, seems like a good deal, If ever i win some good money from the lottery, thats what i would want for our 40rai farm, otherwise in my case, the farm has got to buy the tractor, and i cant see that happening for a few years!!

Cheers, Lickey.

[Badbanker]

MF, Dont mean to contradict you but below is a copied section from my OP,

Just dropped the discs in and some black smoke from the exhaust, normal as the engine gets up to speed, but now she black smokes all the time, even under 70% load, seems like the injector pump is over-fueling,

So how much for an exchange/factory recon/2ndhand injector pump? + fitting.

Now I'm a banker, but I seem to remember black smoke is as you said over fueling and white or grey smoke is engine oil burning.

It is VERY common for Thai backyard mechanics to wind the injection pump up a bit to get more power hence the black smoke and so it smokes a bit. This is often done with tractors that are a bit long in the tooth (short on compression) and not quite as powerful as they used to be!

The other thing I have noticed that is typical! Thais DO NOT change fuel filters and it only takes a bit of water or debris to bypass a filter to destroy the very close tolerance in injection pumps and injectors. This is also a recipe for black smoke!

From your OP it seems you have got in and changed filters but you really don't know what damage has already been done to your injection system.

Does it start right up when it is cold, or does it need a bit of a longer cranking over to start the fires? This can also be an indicator of almost any one of the problems above.

With a diesel engine an up to spec injection system means easy starts, little smoke, reliability, good power with reasonable fuel consumption and I think longer engine life!

I love the smell of well burnt diesel!

BB

PS Wish I could put a nice diesel in the Maybach

Edited August 29, 2008 by Badbanker

[old wanderer]

Boy reading these post make me homesick for my old ranch. I bought a used International 150 HP tractor with 1400 hours on it. That thing ran like a swiss watch for 10 years...I did every thing with that tractor, sub-soil, plow, disk, and plant.

Really wish I had one in Thailand when we finally get moved over there.

(International 1566)

[Gary A]

Boy reading these post make me homesick for my old ranch. I bought a used International 150 HP tractor with 1400 hours on it. That thing ran like a swiss watch for 10 years...I did every thing with that tractor, sub-soil, plow, disk, and plant.

Really wish I had one in Thailand when we finally get moved over there.

(International 1566)

Your post hits a chord with me. For MANY years I always wanted a four wheel drive diesel mini tractor. No way could I justify spending the money. I finally went ahead and bought one and still could no way justify it except that's what I wanted. I certainly have no regrets and really enjoy the tractor. One consolation is that when I am gone my wife has a little more to fall back on. I have taught her to use the tractor and she is getting pretty good at it.

[Maizefarmer]

MF, Dont mean to contradict you but below is a copied section from my OP,

Just dropped the discs in and some black smoke from the exhaust, normal as the engine gets up to speed, but now she black smokes all the time, even under 70% load, seems like the injector pump is over-fueling,

So how much for an exchange/factory recon/2ndhand injector pump? + fitting.

On the other hand, BadBanker has mentioned prices of 3k for injector pump overhaul and 2kbht for injector overhaul, which is very resonable,

Thanks for the prices Gary, seems like a good deal, If ever i win some good money from the lottery, thats what i would want for our 40rai farm, otherwise in my case, the farm has got to buy the tractor, and i cant see that happening for a few years!!

Cheers, Lickey.

Lickey

Yes mate - I know you weren't - it was a tongue in cheek comment on myside. I enjoy your contributions to the forum. No prob's, but in wondering whether or not to add my 2 cents worth it did occur to me that no matter what I or anyone else wrote, someone was sure to come back with a bunch of wildly different prices - leaving the poor OP no closer to getting to grips with what he was going to have to fork out.

I'm not going to run through the cause of "black smoke". I think most folk here understand the basics - which is good enough for the purposes of this discussion, accept possibly to make it clear that black smoke does not means something is neccessarily broken or seriously untoward with the tractor. Black smoke means poor combustion, and in most cases in Thailand (because we are by and large dealing with old high hour tractors) it stems from (in order of most occurance):

1) worn cylinder liners

2) worn piston rings

3) partially blocked injectors

4) poor injection pump performance

In the case of 1 and 2 the amount of black smoke quickly becomes worse and worse and worse - over a period of weeks, whereas in 3 and 4, the differance is that the amount of black smoke tends to remain constant over extended periods of time.

In your case you have put forward enough info to suggest that it is almost certainly related to poor fueling - 3 or 4, or something related to either of them.

My guess, is much along the lines of your guess. Yes - your pump is delievring more fuel to the injectors than the engine can burn per cycle, but my one concern before throwing money at sorting out the injector pump, would be to ensure that the injectors are correctly setup - they are the correct injectors, sized to deliver the correct amount of fuel. You are certain about this are you?

If so, then all that s left is the injector pump. It may not be neccassery to change it - both the pressure and the volume can be adjusted.

Can you send me the manufacturer name and model of the pump please, along with the tractor engine number (I can then look up the the correct pump settings), and lets see if we can possibly sort this out without having to throw too much money at it.

The good thing about black smoke from an engine that is not "leaky" is that it means the injector pump isn't broken - its a lot easier reducing fuel flow and trying to increase it.

[Lickey]

Quote Lickey, OP Lets say for eg ive just bought a Ford 6610, 14 years old,

MF & Badbanker, i started this thread to help prospective buyers of hidden costs of S/H tractors, specially those with no diesel engine/transmission experience.

Personally i have near 40 years experince with the automotive trade, and have total engine overhaul proficiency certifiates from Cummins,Perkins,Volvo and Scania, also have re-built Detroit supercharged 2stroke v8s, V12 dormans,many varietys of Lister Petter and of course Fords.and Allison auto trans for comercial application, Eaton and ZF gearbox overhauls, [mainly truck].

On ocasion when i got fed up with being covered in oil and diesel i would do a truck driving job for a few months just to get out more!!

Just to elaborate on your [MF BB] posts a bit more, Look at the injector pump, the max RPM screw[with locknut] should be lock-wired and sealed by the supplier/factory, and the same with the rack adjuster for fuel delivery, If the rack adjuster has been changed, this will result in over-fuelling, causing black smoke, this causes eccesive detonation and of course advanced wear on pistons and crank components.

Injectors, most injectors have a 4 spray nozzle, some up to 7/8 on larger engines Cummins K19 for instance, these holes are mini-scule, and if a properly maintained fuel system lets a very small piece of debris through, you can be in big trouble, the small piece of crap has to pass through a pre-filter, the 2 main filters, and sometimes a gauze filter before it enters the pump via the union pipe fixing bolt.

The reason for a multi-spray injector is to cool the top of the piston, if 1 spray is blocked, that part of the piston gets hot and starts to 'pick-up' on the bore, an early sign is the smell of un-burnt diesel in the exhaust fumes, A leaking or dribbling injector will give near the same symptoms, but with this, on start up, you will get 'diesel knock' same as if you had used easy-start spray.

If you have an engine that is giving out white/blueish smoke, then that is worn piston rings/bores/pistons, valve guides ect, Personally i havent seen a worn engine with a pukka fuel system giving out black smoke, but then, different country, different problems!!

Badbanker, in the early 70s UK, my boss and I converted 4 XJ6 Jaguars to diesel power, the D series 6 cyl sloping Ford truck engine would fit nicely, loads of tourque, prestige looks, but noisey and 75mph max..

Cheers Lickey..

[ozzydom]

MF, Dont mean to contradict you but below is a copied section from my OP,

Just dropped the discs in and some black smoke from the exhaust, normal as the engine gets up to speed, but now she black smokes all the time, even under 70% load, seems like the injector pump is over-fueling,

So how much for an exchange/factory recon/2ndhand injector pump? + fitting.

On the other hand, BadBanker has mentioned prices of 3k for injector pump overhaul and 2kbht for injector overhaul, which is very resonable,

Thanks for the prices Gary, seems like a good deal, If ever i win some good money from the lottery, thats what i would want for our 40rai farm, otherwise in my case, the farm has got to buy the tractor, and i cant see that happening for a few years!!

Cheers, Lickey.

Lickey

Yes mate - I know you weren't - it was a tongue in cheek comment on myside. I enjoy your contributions to the forum. No prob's, but in wondering whether or not to add my 2 cents worth it did occur to me that no matter what I or anyone else wrote, someone was sure to come back with a bunch of wildly different prices - leaving the poor OP no closer to getting to grips with what he was going to have to fork out.

I'm not going to run through the cause of "black smoke". I think most folk here understand the basics - which is good enough for the purposes of this discussion, accept possibly to make it clear that black smoke does not means something is neccessarily broken or seriously untoward with the tractor. Black smoke means poor combustion, and in most cases in Thailand (because we are by and large dealing with old high hour tractors) it stems from (in order of most occurance):

1) worn cylinder liners

2) worn piston rings

3) partially blocked injectors

4) poor injection pump performance

In the case of 1 and 2 the amount of black smoke quickly becomes worse and worse and worse - over a period of weeks, whereas in 3 and 4, the differance is that the amount of black smoke tends to remain constant over extended periods of time.

In your case you have put forward enough info to suggest that it is almost certainly related to poor fueling - 3 or 4, or something related to either of them.

My guess, is much along the lines of your guess. Yes - your pump is delievring more fuel to the injectors than the engine can burn per cycle, but my one concern before throwing money at sorting out the injector pump, would be to ensure that the injectors are correctly setup - they are the correct injectors, sized to deliver the correct amount of fuel. You are certain about this are you?

If so, then all that s left is the injector pump. It may not be neccassery to change it - both the pressure and the volume can be adjusted.

Can you send me the manufacturer name and model of the pump please, along with the tractor engine number (I can then look up the the correct pump settings), and lets see if we can possibly sort this out without having to throw too much money at it.

The good thing about black smoke from an engine that is not "leaky" is that it means the injector pump isn't broken - its a lot easier reducing fuel flow and trying to increase it.

Isnt it true that a blocked or partially blocked or dirty air filter /intake can also cause black smoke.?

[Gary A]

Yes indeed. A dirty air filter will cause black smoke. If the engine can't get enough air to properly burn the fuel, power will drop and you will see black smoke.

[Badbanker]

When I had the injectors serviced last the chief mechanic took one of my injectors and put it on a tester. When it had a shot of fuel pressurised through it, there where very obvious STREAMS of fuel coming out of the right end.

After servicing the injector and taking it back to spec in front of me, when it had a shot of fuel pressurised through it, the injector no longer gave a stream of fuel but a very fine mist which the technician said was the way it should be and meant that fuel could be burnt a lot more efficiently, giving better economy and power.

I think this is what we all want!

BB

PS I think if I reengined the Maybach it would void warranty and so I will leave it for another 5 years!

[Lickey]

Dom & Gary, for the sake of the thread, the air filter was replaced, but yes,quite right, a blocked filter will choke an engine causing black smoke.

BB, in a way yes its right that a correctly set injector will mist the fuel, but as it leaves the nozzle, you should see a fine jet before it atomises/mists,

These mists from the 4 nozzles should be perfectly even at the correct "crack off" pressure, Any injector set above the Man Rec Spec will have repercussions on the injector pump and also injection timing, I think we all know the Thai philosopy of right is ok, but more is better

Lickey.

[Lancashirelad]

Badbanker, in the early 70s UK, my boss and I converted 4 XJ6 Jaguars to diesel power, the D series 6 cyl sloping Ford truck engine would fit nicely, loads of tourque, prestige looks, but noisey and 75mph max..

and you could have run them on red in those days for ever and day without fear