PAD Lay Siege On Government House, NBT TV Station

[HAL9000]

I'm amazed at the sheer ignorance of so many people on here. Do any of you speak Thai? Do you understand Thai politics? Have you bothered to inform yourself about what's really going on in the Thai government or are you just spouting off bullsh*t as usual?

I work for an international company in Bangkok where most of the employees graduated from Chula and Thammasat - from middle class and wealthy families with everything going for them. A good QUARTER of my office have family members involved in the PAD demonstrations today and no, they're not getting paid to be there - they don't need the money. Surprisingly, they actually care about their country and know that Samak is just another Thaksin-like corrupt politician who will continue to shove Thailand down the path to ruin.

Next time before you rant on about things you know nothing about, maybe learn a little bit about what's going on. Attend a PAD demonstration (I've attended several), talk to Thais who are involved in this (from poor to middle class to wealthy -everyone is represented) and, if you're going to stay here long-term, maybe get off your ass and learn a bit of Thai. Then you might understand what's happening here.

Geez, sometimes it's bloody embarrassing to be farang and mixed up with such a group of freakin' ill-informed know-it-all tossers.

It's not good enough to be well-intentioned. You have to know the agenda of the vehicle you are riding to get the change you want. PAD has an anti-democracy agenda. Using them to get rid of the present problem isn't good in the long term.

[Crushdepth]

"The PAD is an ant-democratic movement supported by high investment and shadowy protection, that exploits the fears of the privileged and a deliberately anti-rational nationalism, and flirts with militarism and violence"

You could say exactly the same thing about the government. Some of their parties have already been dissolved for electoral fraud and Samak's party is likely to follow for the *second time*. How anti-democratic can you get?

Edited August 27, 2008 by Crushdepth

[JoeInSurin]

Read my post again - it doesn't matter if he is right or wrong - he failed as a leader because half the country doesn't recognise him.

35,000 laying siege in Bangkok is not ALL Pad support nationwide. Some people haev difficulty comprehending that for every person out in the street there are many more staying home and cheering them.

Yes, it appears that this time PAD's actions are bewildering to many of its own supporters, BUT

Samak has to go simply for not being able to prevent this confrontation.

Yes he does.

He and his government have not addressed any of the issues brought forward by the groups of people who the PAD represent, the current administration has chosen to fight them or ignore them on every issue. Absolutely stupid moronic governance with the expected results playing themselves out now.

When the governments in this country start to realise that "it's our way or the highway" approach doesn't work and that they have to actually get involved with sorting out the legitimate gripes of groups that didn't vote for them, well that might be the first of the hurdles to national stability and harmony.

Cheers,

Soundman.

Should every leader in the world step down if he could not address every gripe of groups that didn't vote for them and make everyone happy? You are never going to make everyone happy. Samak should not resign. It would show people that breaking the law and being thugs is the way to get things done. This is a bad message to send. The PAD needs to spend more time working on winning the next election and less time disrupting the Country.

Edited August 27, 2008 by JoeInSurin

[Thai at Heart]

"The PAD is an ant-democratic movement supported by high investment and shadowy protection, that exploits the fears of the privileged and a deliberately anti-rational nationalism, and flirts with militarism and violence"

You could say exactly the same thing about the government. Some of their parties have already been dissolved for electoral fraud and Samak's party is likely to follow for the *second time*. How anti-democratic can you get?

I'd rather 1$ one vote than a selected parliament. The courts are doing fine without the help of PAD.

Strengthen anti vote buying legislation, improve tax collection, remove the need for a degree in to sit in parliament, but moving away from one man one vote is lunacy.

[mogoso]

According to my talks with Thai friends I won the impression, that they neither like Samak nor Sondhi, who is now seen as a demagogue and heating up the situation, without having a clear strategy of things after a possible resignation of the Samak government. I share these thoughts. After all, both sides not really care about Thailand and the Thai people but playing a war for power, money, influence...

If there would be new elections this year, what would change? Ok name of PM, name of PPP maybe....but the result would stay the same.

It is frustrating really.

[/quote

They'll be no peace within the body political until PAD and its other leftist allies take power. No election will satisfy them as they cannot muster the votes to take it democratically. They have the Bangkok votes, but the countryside has not voted for them recently, and probably won't.

I really get a laugh when the leftists on this forum complain about vote buying, people vote what they want no matter whose money they might have in their pockets. Ain't no one looking over their shoulders.

[h90]

I asked her about Sondhi's idea of appointed govt and she just chuckled and said "That isn't very fair".

Good point - PAD opponents here make this "new politics" as a cornerstone of their argument that PAD is undemocratic, yet there's very little support for it among PAD members.

Consequently, we haven't heard anything about it for a while, except from anti-PAD folks who seems to be obsessed with the issue.

No one knows if there is any support for it within PAD or not. It came out of Sondhi's mouth, and as the defacto leader is a pretty worrying thing for "the leader" to believe in. What will be will be, and I hope that idea stays just that.

He told something must be done, so not again and again corrupt guys buy their way into government. That was just an idea to start discussion....Not a plan.

[HAL9000]

After ten years in Thailand and a lifetime in government, politics, social science education and English language education, I'd agree that this isn't at all about corruption. It's about the inability of the Thai, regardless of which elite to which he/she belongs, to have anything resembling democracy. Democracy in Thailand is impossible due to the excesses of eccentricity, ethnocentrism and the perpetuation of die-hard Old World values.

So, choose your poison: oligarchy? autocracy? a return to absolutism? If not one of these, then what? As has been obvious for years, it certainly won't/can't be democracy.

It's not only Western democracy that can't succeed in Thailand. Thai democracy can't succeed in Thailand, either. I'm afraid it's true, that we need to get real and face the fact.

Thailand's been on the slippery slope toward one of the above since the economic and financial meltdown of 1997. Remember that the response of the entrepreneural Thai elites to that self-imposed disaster was the formation of the Thai Rak Thai party, led by none other than the anti-democrat himself.

Anyone can have a democracy. They just have to be willing to play by the rules. Corruption is the inhibitor to effective democracy. Corruption here isn't as bad as other places I've seen. Thailand seems well on its way to developing a culture of straight shooters. The current crisis seems to be a conflict between those trying to hold on to the old ways.

[h90]

The Prime Minister has spoken and told all these people who are causing the trouble today, that this is not a fun thing and it becoming very serious. They have overstepped their mark and he has advised them to go home now before any trouble starts. He has instructed the police force to do what they have to do to restore order, although he has not given any deadline when this will come into force.

Now is the time for people to listen, and end this nonesense before someone becomes seriously hurt.

I really don't understand why they allowed things to get this far. Surely the police has the assets and riot control training to have prevented this in the first place. I would think they would have had the water canon, tear gas, and riot shields ready and not allowed anyone to occupy anything.

Maybe they were just trying to play it soft to avoid violence.

Several wifes of the police were seen at the PAD. Some people close to the royal family are always there. A lot military is often there. At minimum 30 % of the police does not like Samak (see also the case of Chalerms son who killed a policeman).

So there is not much motivation to beat young girls, old women and monks....

[yumidesign]

These people are a pain in the arse. Protests never solve anything.

Ignorance is bliss to some. Its called democracy na krub. Everyone has a right to speak freely which includes the right to protest.

[geovalin]

I really get a laugh when the leftists on this forum complain about vote buying, people vote what they want no matter whose money they might have in their pockets. Ain't no one looking over their shoulders.

Well done, Mogoso.

The rural Thais are NOT as dumb as the "elite" pretends they are.

I'm always surprised how some democrats / leftists (well fascists in the case of PAD) despise the "people" "population" they are supposed to defend or represent.

The Thais from countryside take the 500 THB and vote for the one they prefer. Sorry if it's not the "politically correct" one. All of us had this problem in our countries (Berlusconi, Bush, "NO" to EU treaty in France, Iran, Palestine, etc.). Bush is far more dangerous than Samak but US democrats did not ask him to resign.

[Plus]

He told something must be done, so not again and again corrupt guys buy their way into government.

Exactly, that the main thrust, it's PAD opponennts who stubbornly ignore it and focus on "unelected" part, the whole "election/selection" mechanism is not the issue here, not at all.

Folks just use it to drum up their anti-democracy charge. Sondhi shouldn't have given them this ammunition in the first place, but they'd have found something else anyway, their minds were made up long ago and they have stopped listening.

There's Prawit's opinion piece in today's Nation - same old arguments lifted off Thaivisa, all fed on one single "unelected parlament" charge. As I said, it's irrelevant in the first place, and without it there would be no grounds to argue left.

[Uros]

What's the story with the roads in and out of Bangkok?

The only news was yesterday and I have not seen or heard any follow up from any source.

Anyone have any information on this?

PAD blocks roads linking Northeast, North, South to Bangkok

Apart from blocking the main road to the South, the People's Alliance for Democracy protesters also blocked the roads linking to the North and Northeast.

The block the northern main road in Phichit and block the Mittraparp Road near Nakhon Ratchaisma to block the gateway to other northeastern provinces.

The blockade was made in Chum Phon, the gateway to southern provinces.

The Nation

[sriracha john]

Police back off from confrontation with protesters

BANGKOK: -- At 6 am Wednesday, commando police pulled out of the Government House compound, backing off from confrontation with protesters there.

Protesters at the Makkhawan Rangsan bridge started moving to join the protesters inside Government House after the police forces left.

-- The Nation 2008-08-27

What sort of rubbish is the Nation writing? Police is still there, they never even intended any confrontation, just closed exits and stayed put. And also their previous news that protesters were injured during the police getting into government house is absolute rubbish - nobody got injured.

Try again...

Scuffles between protesters camped out overnight and police reporting for duty led to a few minor injuries, Deputy National Police spokesman Major General Surapol Tuanthong told AFP.

- AFP / 2008-08-27

==================================================

Thai riot police breaks through barriers to get into Bangkok's Government House August 27, 2008.

Reuters

Edited August 27, 2008 by sriracha john

[h90]

I really get a laugh when the leftists on this forum complain about vote buying, people vote what they want no matter whose money they might have in their pockets. Ain't no one looking over their shoulders.

Well done, Mogoso.

The rural Thais are NOT as dumb as the "elite" pretends they are.

I'm always surprised how some democrats / leftists (well fascists in the case of PAD) despise the "people" "population" they are supposed to defend or represent.

The Thais from countryside take the 500 THB and vote for the one they prefer. Sorry if it's not the "politically correct" one. All of us had this problem in our countries (Berlusconi, Bush, "NO" to EU treaty in France, Iran, Palestine, etc.). Bush is far more dangerous than Samak but US democrats did not ask him to resign.

You have exactly the point! If in USA they would have forced Bush away, approx. 1.000.000 people would be alive. If there would have been a coup against Hitler 20 or 30 Mill would not have died.

But vote buying makes the complete discussion about rights in a democracy a joke.

[h90]

Whats the next step?

They sit in the garden of the government house. Samak just sits somewhere else, now at the army I think.

He can do that for years, I guess.

so whats the next step to get rid of him?

[simcity]

do not sound samak have a lot of back up with him... perhaps time to see for a exit

[hammered]

I had to go out last night and so missed developments, but today BBC World showed Thai police hitting fleeing demonstrators with batons in a very short report. Did somethign happen last night?

[sriracha john]

I really get a laugh when the leftists on this forum complain about vote buying, people vote what they want no matter whose money they might have in their pockets. Ain't no one looking over their shoulders.

Well done, Mogoso.

The rural Thais are NOT as dumb as the "elite" pretends they are.

I'm always surprised how some democrats / leftists (well fascists in the case of PAD) despise the "people" "population" they are supposed to defend or represent.

The Thais from countryside take the 500 THB and vote for the one they prefer. Sorry if it's not the "politically correct" one. All of us had this problem in our countries (Berlusconi, Bush, "NO" to EU treaty in France, Iran, Palestine, etc.). Bush is far more dangerous than Samak but US democrats did not ask him to resign.

The April 2006 election was ruled null and void in large part because of a change that allowed people who COULD "look over their shoulders"

[Artisi]

Thai broadcast and cable TV news is mostly showing re-reruns of footage from earlier in the day, at NBT and elsewhere... Not much new being shown now...or status on the protests outside...

But there's a live continuing broadcast of the speeches at the demonstration, and occasional English-language news reporting on them, at this web site that is sympathetic to the demonstrators...

http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/

It's getting late. Everyone's settling down for the night. The protesters will be strumming guitars and singing their favourite karaoke songs. Lao kao will be flowing. The police will go off to their karaoke cafes for a few beers and some food. They'll all be back in action tomorrow. Life goes on ....

A little off topic, but Paddy Power are now offering odds of 7-4 on foreigners in Thailand killing each other before the Thais start on each other.

There are 3 or 4 posters in here that wouldn't be missed by the majority.

[esprit]

Whats the next step?

They sit in the garden of the government house. Samak just sits somewhere else, now at the army I think.

He can do that for years, I guess.

so whats the next step to get rid of him?

Well at least Samak can have is BBQ in the garden

[sylviex]

Please, moderators, is it possible for you to set up a news clippings area where only the news reports are posted on breaking news topics?

This thread is a good example of how difficult it is to seperate the news from many pages of political debate...being 29 pages long already.

Yes -- please do this. It's hard to keep track of what's going on. A single thread we could check for news only would be wonderful.

[geovalin]

During one minute, let's forget the "end of democracy in Thailand with PAD", let's forget the "corruption in Samak team".

Let's speak about war: nothing is worst than war (corruption is a joke if you compare) and we saw in July that PAD (at least enough PAD members to make it happens) wants the war against Cambodia. They was indeed in Preah Vihear in persons. It was not speeches, they was there. Three activists managed to create a major incident then hundred of PAD members cars was on their way to make the war erupt (no way to avoid it with this kind of provocations). Fortunately the army stopped them a few km before the border.

By the way, as nationalists they are you can worry for your own one yea visa renewal if they are in charge one day.

Well, Thailand is so divided and if it's not possible to reunite all the Thais FOR a common project, let's reunite them AGAINST something or someone.

[scyriacus]

...I really get a laugh when the leftists on this forum complain about vote buying, people vote what they want no matter whose money they might have in their pockets. Ain't no one looking over their shoulders.

don't deceive yourself! you try to tell the forum, that all these millionaire vote buyers waste their money and not make pretty sure that it is invested properly. maybe there is less vote buying in bangkok (therefore no pro tax-sin result). but i've observed voting in small villages. there everybody knows what everybody is voting for, the marks are made in public (voluntarily!?). the puujai is often asked: "who should i vote for?" and he is often responsible for the correct results depending on the money he's spending. i believe that to be true for a clear majority of the tambons in the country. some voters are always bragging: "ha, i took their money but deceived them." this is nearly impossible. tax-sin did not become a billionaire thru giving money away for free........

[Insight]

Personally I feel my own support for the PAD has took a bit of a beating (but not gone completely). Trying to promote this new style of "democracy" is utterly farcical and the wrong way to go about what's resolving the situation. It's precisely what "democracy" isn't, so they should at least change their name if they wish to keep campaigning for it.

The main problem as far as I can see is this - where the h3ll is the political opposition? A few of us (myself included) commented yesterday on how Samak was dragging his feet to make a statement. Abhisit should of been jumping all over this yesterday. If Samak wasn't prepared to show his face then Abhisit certainly should of been. Instead, what do we finally get today? The typical it's-none-of-my-business "I hope it is resolved peacefully" lameo response.

And the longer Thaksin keeps getting a beating in the courts, the more difficult it's going to be to make the usual (kop-out IMHO) excuse "they've got more money/power". The PAD have managed to mobilize god-knows-how-many thousand supporters within a moments notice, and that's through a shared belief. Why are the Democrats not actively harnessing this support?

We can harp on as much as we want about how the PPP/TRT/whatever next vote-buy their way through the system. I'm starting to wonder when we'll finally address the other major reason these guys repeatedly get in power (if not *the* reason), lack of effective opposition.

Rant over. Would be happy to be proved wrong on this one - just the way I see it.

[Spee]

Mods:

Would it be possible to have one thread for published news reports and another for opinions?

It's quite hard to sort through 30+ pages to filter out the various discussions from the published reports.

Edit.

Wow, someone already beat me to the thought.

Edited August 27, 2008 by Spee

[JoeInSurin]

These people are a pain in the arse. Protests never solve anything.

Ignorance is bliss to some. Its called democracy na krub. Everyone has a right to speak freely which includes the right to protest.

I agree 100%. They should have the right to protest. Do you think the right to speak freely and protest includes the right to break down gates and storm into government buildings, block roads, and take over NBT with masked gummen. Does the right to speak freely include shutting down NBT. What about the freedom of the press?

[sriracha john]

Samak appoints five economic advisers

PM Samak has confirmed the appointment of 5 advisers to his economic ministers, a decision given the thumbs down by the opposition Democrat Party. "The PM has appointed five qualified people. They will help take care of the economy," Samak said in his weekly address on NBT. The advisory team is led by Virabongsa Ramangkura, an economist and former Finance Minister. They will work with ministers in charge of the economy, including Chaiya Sasomsab, who is the new Commerce Minister, Mingkwan Sangsuwan, who becomes Industry Minister, and Finance Minister Surapong Suebwonglee. Samak said the 5 advisers did not want to be Cabinet members as they preferred to keep their huge personal incomes from the private sector and not declare their assets. *LOL, not suspicious in the least...as there are multiple logical reasons WHY these requirements are in place* The new advisers have been criticised for having possible conflicts of interest as they have the opportunity to get inside information from the Cabinet while they sit on the boards of private companies. *Can't get much more dodgy than that*

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=129264

dam_n the improprieties... it's full speed ahead....

Cabinet approves Virabongsa economic team

The Cabinet on Tuesday has appointed former Finance Minister Virabongsa Ramangkura as the PM’s economic advisor, government spokesman Wichienchote Sukchoterat said. According to Wichienchote, executives in Virabongsa’s economic advisory team include Office of Knowledge Management and Development chairman Narongchai Akaraseni, Policy Research Institute Foundation chairman Kanit Sangsubhan, and National Economics and Social Development Board advisor Porametee Vimonsiri. The economic team can join the Cabinet meetings to consider economic issues. *They can also plan their stock purchases and sales in accordance with what occurs at Cabinet meetings and other closed-door governmental meetings, can sit on the Board of Directors of businesses doing deals with the government, purchase land on prospective government projects gleaned from insider information, and can do so much more and all with absolutely no accountability.... sweet deal*

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=129316

===============================================================

Transparency? We don't need no stinkin' transparency!

They've begun...

PM chairs first meeting with new economic team

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej chaired a meeting with his new economic team for the first time Friday. The meeting is aimed at evaluating the government's six economic measures, which have been implemented in the past two weeks. Virabongsa Ramangura, a former finance minister and a chairman of a new economic advisory team to Samak, said after the meeting that the meeting will be held every Monday to consider all projects that the government plans to build before submitting them to the

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=129665

and now they're on the "Team".....

Thai government forms economic policy committee

BANGKOK, Aug 19 (TNA) -- In an attempt to follow up the government's economic measures and to ensure that growth targets are achieved, the Thai Cabinet Tuesday set up an 18-member economic policy committee, according to Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister Surapong Suebwonglee.

The committee, Chaired by Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej, comprises ministers related to economic matters, plus the governor of the Bank of Thailand, the Budget Bureau, the National Economic and Social Development Board, and economic advisers to the prime minister, said Surapong, who was appointed Vice Chairman of the committee.

The committee is tasked with proposing measures to drive economic growth on a sustainable basis and also to follow up the government's economic measures, he said.

Surapong said the committee will hold its first meeting on August 27. It is expected that it would meet every Monday thereafter.

How Samak will spend his time today...

Meeting of economic ministries to be held at OCSC

The government decided to change meeting venue of economic ministries to form Supreme Command headquarter to Office of Civil Service Commission in Nonthaburi province.

Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej will chair the meeting scheduled at 2pm.

- The Nation / today

[jfchandler]

Police applying for an injunction to evict PAD

BANGKOK: - Police have petitioned the Civil Court to issue an injunction for the People's Alliance for Democracy to move out of the Government House, police deputy spokesman Suraphol Thuanthong said on Wednesday.

The injunction is being sought in the same manner that the Ratchawinit School successfully sought the judicial intervention to force the PAD to relocate its rally site, Suraphol said.

In a related development, police have already asked the Criminal Court to approve warrants to arrest the PAD leaders, he said.

The court is expected to rule before noon whether to give the green light to apprehend about seven to eight PAD leaders, he said.

-- The Nation 2008-08-27

[Jai Dee]

Please, moderators, is it possible for you to set up a news clippings area where only the news reports are posted on breaking news topics?

This thread is a good example of how difficult it is to seperate the news from many pages of political debate...being 29 pages long already.

Yes -- please do this. It's hard to keep track of what's going on. A single thread we could check for news only would be wonderful.

Mods:

Would it be possible to have one thread for published news reports and another for opinions?

It's quite hard to sort through 30+ pages to filter out the various discussions from the published reports.

Edit.

Wow, someone already beat me to the thought.

This subject has been raised a number of times in the past on ThaiVisa, and the consensus has always been that ThaiVisa is first and foremost a discussion forum, not a news feed service.

Point noted however, and I will raise it again with Admin for further consideration.

[scyriacus]

...Bush is far more dangerous than Samak but US democrats did not ask him to resign.

because bush is protected and supported by the 'terminator'. and because the average american voters are much more dangerous than the average children of thailand (see 20 bush years and the actor-governor of california)