Pad Vs. Samak: Who Do You Favor?

[younghusband]

"And we are here as on a darkling plain

Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight

Where ignorant armies clash by night"

Mathew Arnold

Dover Beach

[geriatrickid]

How many good leaders have been deposed by Thai coups? Only a couple. How many bad ones? Lots.

Flip that around to American-style democracy. How many good men get elected? Right.

I think your argument is all wet.

Let's have a look at the last century of US presidents; Woodrow Wilson - he was a backer of the League of Nations, the forerunner to the UN,

Franklin Roosevelt - the man that saved America in its darkest hour and that brought in many of its social welfare programs. Harry Truman - He kept MacCarthur from starting WWIII in Korea when Dougie wanted to nuke China, JFK - 'nuff said, LBJ - pushed civil rights and the interstate highway system, Nixon - Corrupt and evil but he normalized relations with China & Russia & started the arms control agreements, also started the EPA. Carter - arguably the most popular pres at the time of election but an unmitigated disaster, Clinton - balanced the US budget and paid down the debt Ronnie Reagan ran up.

The point of all this is that despite the USA having had duds as presidents, the process still worked over all. By the same token, Thailand may get a few duds as it grows its democracy, but if Thailand is going to produce an FDR, somewhere along the way it will have to put up with its version of a Nixon or a Carter.

Your argument can also be applied to the UK. It's the country that gave us the vacillating spineless Chamberlain. It also gave us Churchill, who's brilliance, strength and fortitude kept the UK free. If Thailand had it's version of Chamberlain, shouldn't it also be allowed to have its version of Winston?

[camerata]

For an informed opinion on how PAD veered away from democratic ideas, see the following article, written in July.

Thailand's "New Politics" Charade

Sondhi Limthongkul’s plans for a political revolution

No longer content with the old slogan of "Thaksin dit khuk, Samak ok pai" (Thaksin in jail, Samak out), Sondhi Limthongkul, the core leader of the People’s Alliance for Democracy, has called for a "New Politics." I heard Sondhi's New Politics speech delivered from the stage on July 4th, near Government House in Bangkok. It was the 41st day of the People's Alliance for Democracy’s new round of street protests.

The New Politics turns out to be a startlingly reactionary proposal to move Thailand's parliamentary system towards a form of appointed corporatism, or what might be called a selectoral democracy. Thirty percent of MPs would come from elections, perhaps one per province, and the rest of MPS would derive from various occupations and associations. Sondhi says the proportion is not fixed, it's up for debate.

Continued in the Asia Sentinel.

[sabaijai]

Some typical western reactions here but the reality is you can't have a 'fair and square' election in a country where the votes of an entire village can be bought by paying the village headman 7000 baht.

It wasn't enough that Thaksin and the TRT, and their rebranded cronies the PPP, bought the elections. Mr T blew it by selling out Thailand's satellite system to the highest bidder in Singapore four days after pushing legislation through the National Assembly abolishing capital gains taxes on SET trades and thereby taking at least a billion baht that would otherwise have been added to the government budget. Not to mention altering other legislation to benefit his wife's huge land deals. On top of that, virtually every international state visit concluded with a ShinCorps deal.

So his lapdog Samak comes along and tries to change the constitution so that Thaksin would be eligible for office again. That single action spawned the rebirth of the PAD, which has since gathered momentum through exposing all sorts of other unholy alliances.

Once again, Thaksin/TRT/PPP brought it on themselves. Had Samak left well enough alone, the PPP might have squeaked by the academic corps, Thailand's 5th column.

The deck is so unfairly stacked towards the ogliarchy here that a 'fair election' isn't possible.

Most western elections have taken place within the context of a single constitution. In Thailand every time there's a coup and/or election, there's a new constitution. The one the PPP want stinks. Thailand needs the kind of system Sondhi is proposing, IMO. Whether it comes about or not, it's a proposal that impartial political pundits in Bangkok acknowledge is more workable than the current populist system, which the TRT invented.

The old American adage 'democracy is the worst system except for all the others' doesn't apply when there are clear alternatives available here, ones that have worked well in the past (eg, making half the NA appointed positions).

The gap between rural thailand and the economic elite means that simple majority vote doesn't work in the best interests of the nation; it's one of the reasons the US adopted the electoral college system.

The two extremes--all-electoral vs all-appointed--are obviously open to abuse, so the most functional for thailand may be something in-between. Thailand needs to go back to its earliest constitutions, which recognised that political representation here should include not just elected officials but also appointed experts.

But I doubt it's enough to break the coup-constitution-election-protest-coup cycle, which has been in place since 1947. Ain't gonna change for populists or demagogues.

Both sides in the current conflict are products of the same patronage system, just different window dressing. Patronage is how Thai society functions.

I'm of the opinion that democracy (like the bible but that is another topic) is highly over-rated and probably not appropriate for Thailand, certainly at this time.

Some people have made a fetish out of democracy.

[camerata]

The Continuing Crisis in Thailand

Giles Ji Ungpakorn

01 September 2008

Democracy and social justice get lost in the shuffle between the royalists and the pro-Thaksin forces

For the past two or more years, especially since the September 2006 coup, Thai society has been hypnotized into forgetting about the real social and political issues. Instead, the whole of society and most tragically, the social movements have been entranced by a fight between two factions of the Thai ruling class.

On the one side are the deposed Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his disbanded Thai Rak Thai Party, its successor, the Peoples Power Party and the government. Opposing them are a loose collection of authoritarian royalists comprising the People’s Alliance for Democracy, the pro-coup royalist military, the pro-coup judiciary and the Democrat Party. The authoritarian royalists are not a unified body. They only share a collective interest in wiping out Thaksin’s party.

Continued here.

[CWMcMurray]

They voted for the PPP because they were promised more "village

funds."

Sounds like Congress in the good 'ol US of A. Deliver pork to the home state to get re-elected and then work with lobbyists to fund their next re-election campaign......and other things

This is the primary arguement of the PAD, I believe. The western style democracy of one person-one vote means the power is held by the rural and uneducated poor, who are susceptible to bribery and pork come election time.

It seems that the PAD's choice would be Educated middle class Bangkokian business elitists control the govenment and the uneduacated poor should just sit back and be ruled by those who know better...

many of the rural folks that I have had the opprotunity to talk with have told me that they believe the elites in BKK do everything they can to keep the rural poor poweless and uneducated. Maybe that's why they keep electing the PPP...

[long]

It's completely laughable that i group calling themselves the "People's Alliance for Democracy" would attempt to stage a coup against the democratically elected leader. It's so backward i don't even know where to start.

It seems the world seems to have forgotten what democracy means. They don't teach it in schools anymore or something?

Democracy is more than just having elections!

If a government does not act in the best interest of the people and does not do the will of the people, then it is not democratic.

Neither does propaganda and corruption make a democracy.

It seems elections seems like the magic word to be accepted by the "international community"™. So even Egypt has elections... Only really ignorant people would call Egypt a democracy.

Very shame of it, in South-East asia, "democracy " always is not in the shcool teaching course..

[rogerdee123]

I think Smith Smithington should return to the political realm in Thailand

Some of you long stayers may remember him when he ran for Bangkok Governor about 20 years ago.

His solution to the traffic problem was to make all the traffic lights green.

His solution to Bangkok flooding was ... "dig a big hole".

[Koo82]

I support Mr. Samak and Mr. Thaksil.

Good for you and the rest of the minorities.

We are in the majority. We voted for Khun Samak. You already know how many people are supporting him when there is just a small group of protestors started last week. Just that all of us don't go to Sanam Luang.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Koo82

[Koo82]

I don't have a problem with buying votes; the market will take care of itself. If you're completely sh*t at running the country no amount of money will buy the election.

Well said.

Who said other parties didn't buy votes but only Khun Samak's party did?

[SmellyCat]

I don't have a problem with buying votes; the market will take care of itself. If you're completely sh*t at running the country no amount of money will buy the election.

Fine, but then don't pretend you want a democracy.

Who said other parties didn't buy votes but only Khun Samak's party did?

Ohh.... that makes it okay then... (sarcasm)

[CaptHaddock]

The gap between rural thailand and the economic elite means that simple majority vote doesn't work in the best interests of the nation; it's one of the reasons the US adopted the electoral college system.

Hard to read this ignorant, anti-democracy tirade. For your information, the electoral college system in the US constitution is an effect of slavery. The purpose of the EC was to allocate to the South an unfair degree of representation in deciding who would be president. The constitution already gave the South disproportionate representation in the House of Representatives via the "three fifths" compromise. For the purpose of counting citizens to determine how many representatives each state was entitled to, a (completely disenfranchised) slave was counted as 60% of a free citizen. So this inflated the number of representatives each southern state would get. But the Northern states would still decide the presidential elections because of their greater population. So, the EC appears as a means of transferring the overrepresentation in the House to the presidential election by allocating electoral college votes to each state in the number of their senators (always two) and their representatives It had nothing to do with distrusting the popular votes and everything to do with jiggering the system to give the slave-holding South excessive representation in both Congress and the presidency. It worked. The first president chosen without Southern votes was Lincoln, whose election caused the South to secede. The pity is that Lincoln didn't simply let them go. But that's another story.

As for Thailand, the problem is that the royalists are pursuing a restoration. Not hard to find adherents when you that USD 35 billion to spend, is it? Too bad it isn't ever used genuinely to help the people.

Edited September 2, 2008 by CaptHaddock

[sabaijai]

The Continuing Crisis in Thailand

Giles Ji Ungpakorn

01 September 2008

Democracy and social justice get lost in the shuffle between the royalists and the pro-Thaksin forces

For the past two or more years, especially since the September 2006 coup, Thai society has been hypnotized into forgetting about the real social and political issues. Instead, the whole of society and most tragically, the social movements have been entranced by a fight between two factions of the Thai ruling class.

On the one side are the deposed Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his disbanded Thai Rak Thai Party, its successor, the Peoples Power Party and the government. Opposing them are a loose collection of authoritarian royalists comprising the People’s Alliance for Democracy, the pro-coup royalist military, the pro-coup judiciary and the Democrat Party. The authoritarian royalists are not a unified body. They only share a collective interest in wiping out Thaksin’s party.

Continued here.

No love lost between Ji and the PAD. If you read Thai and are interested in the PAD's opinion of British-Thai Trotskyist Giles, see this.

[Scalawag]

It's obvious to me that Thailand is simply not ready for democracy yet. As stated earlier, for democracy to succeed it requires a free press and a well educated populace. Until improving the educational system leading to a well informed and thoughtful population, which values its votes rather than "selling" them, I'm not optimistic about the formation of a stable government here.

[Seizhin]

Samak, mainly because he's not from a street-politics who uses force to seize the Parliament House and causes much damage to the country's economy.

Fake propaganda and all those cursing in ASTV really gets my nerve, I call it "Thurlet" (spelling?)

Regardless, street politics are common in Thailand ever since Thaksin2's era.

[mahtin]

I hope they are hung for their actions!

They as traitors, would be in the West!!

Off with their heads, eh, Highlander

[ding]

democracy doesn't work without freedom of the press.........yes its that simple!!

Right you are. Add clean & fair elections too.

[CaptHaddock]

It's obvious to me that Thailand is simply not ready for democracy yet. As stated earlier, for democracy to succeed it requires a free press and a well educated populace. Until improving the educational system leading to a well informed and thoughtful population, which values its votes rather than "selling" them, I'm not optimistic about the formation of a stable government here.

But Thailand is ready for military dictatorship?

[britmaveric]

All the parties participate in the vote buying method!