Tax Advice Wanted. Us Citizen Living Thailand

[stevehaigh]

hi all

does anyone know the tax rules for US citizens living outside the US but earning money in the US? can anyone recommend an accountant either in BKK or in the SF bay area CA, who can advise me.

next year i will be living outside the US for at least 330days (the IRS rule) but i will still be getting paid by my US employer. i think i shouldn't have to pay US tax but i need to know all the rules and laws.

thanks steve

[sbk]

Hi Steve, I am pretty sure you have to pay tax on income earned within the US, it's only on foreign earned income that you get the exclusion. Afraid I can't recommend anyone but you might try asking at the ACS at the embassy.

[PeaceBlondie]

hi all

does anyone know the tax rules for US citizens living outside the US but earning money in the US? can anyone recommend an accountant either in BKK or in the SF bay area CA, who can advise me.

next year i will be living outside the US for at least 330days (the IRS rule) but i will still be getting paid by my US employer. i think i shouldn't have to pay US tax but i need to know all the rules and laws.

thanks steve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm a retired IRS auditor and agent, so my first best answer is, "I'm not sure."

To begin with, all US citizens are required by Title 26 (the Internal Revenue Code of 1986) to report ALL their world-wide income. Then you go looking for exemptions.

Generally, your foreign earned income can be exempted, up to about $80,000 per year, if you meet either of the two requirements: the physical presence test (to which your 330 days may apply) or the residency test. Go to www.irs.gov and in the left column, select Publication 54. Yes, it's like Greek or worse. But, since your employer is in the USA, I'm not sure.

Hope that helps.

[lopburi3]

As long as you are not a US Government employee this is the important paragraph from Pub 54:

The source of your earned income is the place where you perform the services for which you received the income. Foreign earned income is income you receive for working in a foreign country. Where or how you are paid has no effect on the source of the income. For example, income you receive for work done in Austria is income from a foreign source even if the income is paid directly to your bank account in the United States and your employer is located in New York City.

[stevehaigh]

As long as you are not a US Government employee this is the important paragraph from Pub 54:

The source of your earned income is the place where you perform the services for which you received the income. Foreign earned income is income you receive for working in a foreign country. Where or how you are paid has no effect on the source of the income. For example, income you receive for work done in Austria is income from a foreign source even if the income is paid directly to your bank account in the United States and your employer is located in New York City.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that's an interesting one. it looks like i should be able to claim all my income as foreign.

thanks

[Dancali]

I did extensive research on this topic recently.

As long as you're outside America for the required 330 days in any 365 day period, you can most likely claim the exclusion.

You are still liable for social security though of about 15% of your income up to $87,000 or so and then 2% or so for med after that.

There are some more ins and outs to it but that's the basic idea.

Have you considered the impact of Thai income taxes? If you're in Thailand for 180 days/year, you're liable for income taxes on any income brought into the country, regardless of its source. This could mean all of your atm withdrawals. I think the best approach is not to worry about this as I don't think they will do anything about it. Though there's always the chance immigration will ask you about your taxes when they see you're in Thailand for so long.

[Ken]

hi all

does anyone know the tax rules for US citizens living outside the US but earning money in the US? can anyone recommend an accountant either in BKK or in the SF bay area CA, who can advise me.

next year i will be living outside the US for at least 330days (the IRS rule) but i will still be getting paid by my US employer. i think i shouldn't have to pay US tax but i need to know all the rules and laws.

thanks steve

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A number of years ago I worked in Thailand as an "ex-pat" for a USA company for seven years. The company I worked for used the accounting firm, KPMG which has offices thru-out the US and an office in Bangkok. You can do a "google" search to find addresses, etc. I'm sure there are other accountants out there, I'm just giving you what we used.

[tutsiwarrior]

I used an outfit in BKK called Taxplan to do my 2002 taxes and they did a good job (found to be not liable for US taxes for a number of reasons). I believe that you will find in the General Information section of your US passport it says that all US citizens must file a yearly federal tax return regardless of where income was earned. For someone like myself that has no property or income, no family or other attachments to the US and who has only visited twice (2 weeks on US soil total) since 1988 I find any sort of US tax liability insane.

[dugdig]

I did extensive research on this topic recently.

As long as you're outside America for the required 330 days in any 365 day period, you can most likely claim the exclusion.

You are still liable for social security though of about 15% of your income up to $87,000 or so and then 2% or so for med after that.

There are some more ins and outs to it but that's the basic idea.

Have you considered the impact of Thai income taxes?  If you're in Thailand for 180 days/year, you're liable for income taxes on any income brought into the country, regardless of its source.  This could mean all of your atm withdrawals.  I think the best approach is not to worry about this as I don't think they will do anything about it.  Though there's always the chance immigration will ask you about your taxes when they see you're in Thailand for so long.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you saying that any cash brought into Thailand can be taxed as income by Thai tax laws?

[Dancali]

I did extensive research on this topic recently.

As long as you're outside America for the required 330 days in any 365 day period, you can most likely claim the exclusion.

You are still liable for social security though of about 15% of your income up to $87,000 or so and then 2% or so for med after that.

There are some more ins and outs to it but that's the basic idea.

Have you considered the impact of Thai income taxes?  If you're in Thailand for 180 days/year, you're liable for income taxes on any income brought into the country, regardless of its source.  This could mean all of your atm withdrawals.  I think the best approach is not to worry about this as I don't think they will do anything about it.  Though there's always the chance immigration will ask you about your taxes when they see you're in Thailand for so long.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you saying that any cash brought into Thailand can be taxed as income by Thai tax laws?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should do a search for "atm taxes" and you'll find the thread about this from a month ago or so.

[thaihome]

...I find any sort of US tax liability insane.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then just cut all strings and give up your US Passport.

TH

[dugdig]

I did extensive research on this topic recently.

As long as you're outside America for the required 330 days in any 365 day period, you can most likely claim the exclusion.

You are still liable for social security though of about 15% of your income up to $87,000 or so and then 2% or so for med after that.

There are some more ins and outs to it but that's the basic idea.

Have you considered the impact of Thai income taxes?  If you're in Thailand for 180 days/year, you're liable for income taxes on any income brought into the country, regardless of its source.  This could mean all of your atm withdrawals.  I think the best approach is not to worry about this as I don't think they will do anything about it.  Though there's always the chance immigration will ask you about your taxes when they see you're in Thailand for so long.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you saying that any cash brought into Thailand can be taxed as income by Thai tax laws?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should do a search for "atm taxes" and you'll find the thread about this from a month ago or so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did a search for "atm taxes" and all I found was this thread. CAn you help me find it?

[tutsiwarrior]

thaihome...quoting people out of context is dumb...

'love it or leave it' bleatings are dumber...

[Dancali]

I did extensive research on this topic recently.

As long as you're outside America for the required 330 days in any 365 day period, you can most likely claim the exclusion.

You are still liable for social security though of about 15% of your income up to $87,000 or so and then 2% or so for med after that.

There are some more ins and outs to it but that's the basic idea.

Have you considered the impact of Thai income taxes?  If you're in Thailand for 180 days/year, you're liable for income taxes on any income brought into the country, regardless of its source.  This could mean all of your atm withdrawals.  I think the best approach is not to worry about this as I don't think they will do anything about it.  Though there's always the chance immigration will ask you about your taxes when they see you're in Thailand for so long.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you saying that any cash brought into Thailand can be taxed as income by Thai tax laws?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You should do a search for "atm taxes" and you'll find the thread about this from a month ago or so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did a search for "atm taxes" and all I found was this thread. CAn you help me find it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here are two threads you might want to check out:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...=20154&hl=taxes

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=20040&st=0

[sabaijai]

...I find any sort of US tax liability insane.

Then just cut all strings and give up your US Passport.

TH

An American friend of mine looked into this recently. The US State Dept said they do accept renunciations of citizenship (some countries do not) but you have to sign documents agreeing to continue filing (and paying, if liable) US income taxes for 10 years.

One thing to remember is that the IRS is highly unlikely to audit an expat, as they risk that person getting fed up and not filing at all in future years. So expats can typically be more liberal in the application of US tax codes when filing. Or so I've been told by a couple of tax experts.

I file every year but my accountant has been successful in keeping my tax liability to a comfortable minimum. I'm looking to change accountants all the same, as he lives in the USA and I'd rather have someone here in Thailand doing my taxes.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks for the connections to the tax treaties. I read the Thai-USA treaty and almost understood it (I should). My fears about ATM income appear unfounded because all I'm withdrawing are pensions based on service to the govt.'s of the USA. So, that's apparently not taxable in Thailand.

Also, my earned income in Thailand is far below $80,000 to begin with, and since I'm teaching at a govt. school, it's exempt from US taxation per the treaty, regardless of the earned income exemption.

Anybody disagree?

[Boon Mee]

Having worked as an expat for too many years I can repeat what's already been said. Stay out 330 consecutive days and you're not obligated to the Feds.

Only time that didn't apply was when that jerk Jimmy Carter was president but that's another story.

Once you've established a "tax home" in whatever country you're living you can return to the states for extended periods.

You don't even have to pay SS tax if your company is out of the Cayman's or such as a lot are doing these days.

[PeaceBlondie]

Boon Mee, that's a good point: liability for US Social Security taxes. I'm employed by a Thai government agency that doesn't withhold any SS taxes on me. I doubt whether it's 'self-employment' as defined in sections 1401-1403 of the IRC, and I can't imagine a foreign govt. being subject to FICA. Well, I can research that myself.

Meanwhile, anybody have opinions about owing SS taxes back in the states?

[Dancali]

Boon Mee, that's a good point: liability for US Social Security taxes.  I'm employed by a Thai government agency that doesn't withhold any SS taxes on me.  I doubt whether it's 'self-employment' as defined in sections 1401-1403 of the IRC, and I can't imagine a foreign govt. being subject to FICA.  Well, I can research that myself.

Meanwhile, anybody have opinions about owing SS taxes back in the states?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't really know what to do about your situation, but I'm thinking that if you want to claim SS they will want to know why you weren't contributing during some working years.

Personally, ss is extremely unattractive to me. I'm young and won't be collecting any ss for decades. And when I do collect, considering the economics of the system, who knows what sort of stripped down version it will be compared to today. And the whopping 15% of my income I'm putting in there would get me an incredibly better return if I could take care of it myself. Though I guess that the point of taxes isn't quid pro quo.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks for the comments, dancali. My main concern was whether I have to pay SE tax on my earnings, and from the research I just did, it's pretty clear that I don't have to pay SE or FICA tax on my employment in Thailand.

The SS system and the IRS probably don't care why somebody goes a long time without paying in; the calculation takes care of that, anyway. I'm already claiming benefits and paying in more taxes wouldn't help me much.

Most of the SS system in the USA isn't voluntary;' you either owe or you don't.

[Boon Mee]

thaihome...quoting people out of context is dumb...

'love it or leave it' bleatings are dumber...

Boy O Boy!

This is a far cry from the Tutsi we all used to know!

It weren't that long ago you wouda had thaihome's legs off at the hips for his remark.

Getting mellow in your old age Tutsi?

[tutsiwarrior]

Boon...these days I post on the forum from work where I am sober; not like before when I was in Thailand at 4am when head was otherwise and I was pissed off as the Sang Som had run out and was too drunk to peddle to the 7-11 for more...

besides...no reason to get excited anymore when quiet venom usually does the trick...

[thaihome]

thaihome...quoting people out of context is dumb...

'love it or leave it' bleatings are dumber...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't think I was quoting you out of context; I just did not bother to include your entire rant. Nor was it a love it or leave it “bleating”, I was just saying if you don't think you should have any tax liability in the US maybe you shouldn't have the benefit of a US passport. I was trying to be helpful by including the link to renouncing your citizenship.

TH

[tutsiwarrior]

thaihome...tax liability and entitlement to US citizenship have no relationship. And you did quote out of context as I had said that tax liability when one has no property, family or any other connection 'is insane' (no other country I know of has this requirement)...ie., if things were otherwise (family in US, property, etc) I would accept the tax responsibility...

hope that's not too complicated...

[dunkinto_farang]

steve if you read your passport carefully you will learn that the only thing that will free you from your obligation to pay US taxes is death. Our passport notes that even in you renounce/lose your US citizenship you will still have US taz obligations.

[stevehaigh]

Having worked as an expat for too many years I can repeat what's already been said.  Stay out 330 consecutive days and you're not obligated to the Feds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hum, consectuive, i thought it was 330 days, didn't matter if you popped back several times a years so long as it added up to less than 35 days in the US. are you saying it has to be a block of 330 days? where did you get that info?

thx steve

[Boon Mee]

Having worked as an expat for too many years I can repeat what's already been said.  Stay out 330 consecutive days and you're not obligated to the Feds.

hum, consectuive, i thought it was 330 days, didn't matter if you popped back several times a years so long as it added up to less than 35 days in the US. are you saying it has to be a block of 330 days? where did you get that info?

thx steve

Steve,

Can't remember the IRS publication number now but if you get on their website you can find it. When I did my research into it last - 5 years ago, the ruling was the same as back in 1977 when I first left the states.

Thing is, it's got to be consecutive days in order to be Federal tax free for that period. If your intention is to stay out that long at the outset, file the W4 "Exempt" straight-away and you'll not have to wait for the $$$ to be refunded to you.

If you were to pop back into the states before the 330 days were up, I'd do it through Mexico or Canada on your driver's license. That's done all the time by the way.

Tutsi~

How does this quiet venom thing work? Jing jing - not taking the piss here...

[thaihome]

thaihome...tax liability and entitlement to US citizenship have no relationship. And you did quote out of context as I had said that tax liability when one has no property, family or any other connection 'is insane' (no other country I know of has this requirement)...ie., if things were otherwise (family in US, property, etc) I would accept the tax responsibility...

hope that's not too complicated...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, not too complicated at all. I am curious as to why all your replies end with a sh**y little remark. Are you incapable of having a discussion without making personal insults?

I was trying to show you another perspective, but I that would seem to be something you are completely uninterested in, as it is obvious you think only your opinion counts and feel compelled to insult anyone that dares to differ with you.

I am in the same situation as you claim to be as far as US residency, I have spent 3 weeks total in the last 6 years in the US and have no particular ties. But IMHO just because no other country has similar tax laws does not make it "insane". To me, it's part of the price I pay for being an American citizen overseas. I figure what little US tax I pay goes towards maintaining the embassy and consular services, among other things that are available to Americans overseas.

Did that get through to your closed, narrow mind?

TH

[tutsiwarrior]

thaihome...suggesting that one renounce one's citizenship as a response to a criticism raised regarding unfair taxation is not what I regard as civilised 'discussion'. Your point regarding taxes paying for consular services and other benefits available to US citizens while abroad is noted. However I view these as benefitting tourists and not permanent expatriates such as myself who assume whatever risks are inherent in making that decision.

With regard to your comment that I cannot refrain from 'sh1tty little comments' all I can say is that this is the TV forum and if you can't take the heat you know what you can do...

[Boon Mee]

Looks like the "quiet venom" thing ain't working...