Thailand Losing Battle To Win Muslim Hearts

[george]

Thailand losing battle to win Muslim hearts

PATTANI: -- A dozen Muslim men were watching a television show at a teashop when the school next door went up in flames in Thailand's deep south.

They ignored it.

Soldiers arrived without fire-fighting equipment and tried to tackle the blaze with a bucket as their colonel pleaded to groups of people watching the 36-year-old school burn down.

"This is everyone's school," the colonel cried. "Please help the soldiers put it out."

They ignored him.

Lohtu Elementary School was one of five schools which went up in flames on Tuesday night, just hours after Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said the situation in the mainly Muslim south was improving.

The reluctance of local Muslims to help save the school, which they see as a symbol of the government in Bangkok, spoke volumes about the estrangement of Malay-speaking people in an overwhelmingly Buddhist nation.

Three of the five schools were in the Kapoh district of Pattani province where police shot dead two armed Muslim militants a day earlier.

"They probably set them on fire because two of their men were killed," the colonel told Reuters in between urging the Muslim villagers to help try save the building.

They were the latest of scores of schools torched in Thailand's three southermost provinces alongside the Malaysian border since January, when the violence erupted with a raid on an army camp in which more than 300 assault rifles were stolen.

Since then, almost 500 people -- government officials, suspected militants and civilians -- have been killed in the violence.

FUTILE ATTEMPTS

Nothing Prime Minister Thaksin has tried seems to have dented the alienation.

He believes lack of education and unemployment are the two main factors behind the violence in a region where Muslim separatists fought low key insurgencies in the 1970s and 1980s.

Thaksin pledged to spend 12 billion baht on education, job creation and infrastructure to accelerate regional development.

But appeals for people to come forward with information to help end the militancy appear to fall on deaf ears.

"Many Muslims are still reluctant to help the authorities with tip-offs because they don't trust officials," said a Muslim scholar who declined to be identified.

Thaksin's latest campaign -- to get each of Thailand's 63 million people to fold a paper dove to be dropped over the deep south on King Bhumibhol Adulyadej's birthday on December 5 as a gesture of peace and caring -- is shrugged off in the south.

Thaksin, who faces a general election in February he is expected to win handsomely despite the continuing violence in the south, is undeterred.

He brought experts to his cabinet meeting on Tuesday to teach ministers how to fold a paper dove and signed the wings of one.

"If a child gets my bird, he or she will get a scholarship," Thaksin told reporters "If an unemployed adult gets it, he or she will get a job."

--Reuters 2004-11-24

[Doi Thong]

What a bullshit...and if farang will get his bird he gets 10 years non b visa and elite card..?......:-)

Thailand losing battle to win Muslim hearts

PATTANI: --  A dozen Muslim men were watching a television show at a teashop when the school next door went up in flames in Thailand's deep south.

They ignored it.

Soldiers arrived without fire-fighting equipment and tried to tackle the blaze with a bucket as their colonel pleaded to groups of people watching the 36-year-old school burn down.

"This is everyone's school," the colonel cried. "Please help the soldiers put it out."

They ignored him.

Lohtu Elementary School was one of five schools which went up in flames on Tuesday night, just hours after Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra said the situation in the mainly Muslim south was improving.

The reluctance of local Muslims to help save the school, which they see as a symbol of the government in Bangkok, spoke volumes about the estrangement of Malay-speaking people in an overwhelmingly Buddhist nation.

Three of the five schools were in the Kapoh district of Pattani province where police shot dead two armed Muslim militants a day earlier.

"They probably set them on fire because two of their men were killed," the colonel told Reuters in between urging the Muslim villagers to help try save the building.

They were the latest of scores of schools torched in Thailand's three southermost provinces alongside the Malaysian border since January, when the violence erupted with a raid on an army camp in which more than 300 assault rifles were stolen.

Since then, almost 500 people -- government officials, suspected militants and civilians -- have been killed in the violence.

FUTILE ATTEMPTS

Nothing Prime Minister Thaksin has tried seems to have dented the alienation.

He believes lack of education and unemployment are the two main factors behind the violence in a region where Muslim separatists fought low key insurgencies in the 1970s and 1980s.

Thaksin pledged to spend 12 billion baht on education, job creation and infrastructure to accelerate regional development.

But appeals for people to come forward with information to help end the militancy appear to fall on deaf ears.

"Many Muslims are still reluctant to help the authorities with tip-offs because they don't trust officials," said a Muslim scholar who declined to be identified.

Thaksin's latest campaign -- to get each of Thailand's 63 million people to fold a paper dove to be dropped over the deep south on King Bhumibhol Adulyadej's birthday on December 5 as a gesture of peace and caring -- is shrugged off in the south.

Thaksin, who faces a general election in February he is expected to win handsomely despite the continuing violence in the south, is undeterred.

He brought experts to his cabinet meeting on Tuesday to teach ministers how to fold a paper dove and signed the wings of one.

"If a child gets my bird, he or she will get a scholarship," Thaksin told reporters "If an unemployed adult gets it, he or she will get a job."

--Reuters 2004-11-24

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[davethailand]

A dozen Muslim men were watching a television show at a teashop when the school next door went up in flames in Thailand's deep south.

They ignored it.

Soldiers arrived without fire-fighting equipment and tried to tackle the blaze with a bucket as their colonel pleaded to groups of people watching the 36-year-old school burn down.

"This is everyone's school," the colonel cried. "Please help the soldiers put it out."

They ignored him.

******* animals.

[kat]

The time for civilization has not yet arrived... and when it does, people will realize that ALL religion is about Power, Money and Control of the masses. We will only become civilized long after religion is dead and replaced by a Worldwide Philosphy of Life.

Hmmm..... a long ways in the future alas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but this statement above cuts through to one of my most core beliefs.

[kat]

I don't agree with some of your past statements that all women are alike and concerned primarily with money. This is not only a chauvinst statement, but a self-serving one as well. Just because the women that you end up with are preoccupied with money does not mean that all women are this way.

Sorry, but you asked (and sorry to all for veering off the important topic of this thread).

[Nam Kao]

The 5 muslim guys probably set it on fire, why would they want to put it out.

--------------------------

Listen, The quran commands to kill or convert all Infidels, the mosques have to

be shut down to stop the brainwashing

[Darknight]

Thailand losing battle to win Muslim hearts

Why They don't have enough paper to fold

[Dickie]

And... is Christianity any better?  “If thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments…The Lord will smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish…The Lord will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. The Lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart” (Deuteronomy 28:15-28).

ALL religions should be abolished... and the sooner the better for ALL mankind.

AMEN.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A little better, in that it says God alone will punish the infidel, whereas the koran clearly orders people to do the killing. Much easier for a muslim to use his holy book to excuse murder than for a christian.

[Pattayaguy1999]

And... is Christianity any better?  “If thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments…The Lord will smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish…The Lord will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed. The Lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart” (Deuteronomy 28:15-28).

ALL religions should be abolished... and the sooner the better for ALL mankind.

AMEN.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A little better, in that it says God alone will punish the infidel, whereas the koran clearly orders people to do the killing. Much easier for a muslim to use his holy book to excuse murder than for a christian.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Christianity certainly has a troubling history: Crusades, Inquistion, Indulgences for salvation. But, if I remember my Bible studies correctly, the New Testament replaces the Old. Christians no long quote, "An eye for an eye...." That harsh Old Testament view of the world was replaced by Jesus saying, "Turn the other cheek...." "Give them your cloak..."

The problem with the muslims is that millions of them are being told that anyone that is not a muslim deserves death; and they will administer it here and now. At least the vast majority of Christians are letting God dispense justice after the person leaves this planet. The fanatic muslims are going to be a tremendous problem for everybody else for the forseeable future.

[Pattayaguy1999]

Points taken on the differences... But not a good example either... Somewhere in the Bible it says, "I am a jealouss God." Not a very good example is it? The point is, neither religion is good. God is good, God is jealous, God will destroy his enemies. Allah is Great, Go kill the none believers... All Hypocricy.

And your last sentance is the most frightening of all. "The fanatic muslims are going to be a tremendous problem for everybody else for the forseeable future." The day will come and maybe in the forseeable future... when the Moslems will go too far... worse than 911... and there will be a war against Isam. And there will only be one winner. The side with the most Atomic bombs. It will come to a showdown... it has to. And all because of 'belief systems' being so diverse. Sad init.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point, but again I think you are quoting Old Testament. Even a quick read will demostrate what a harsh and unforgiving God is presented in the Old Testament.

Several radical muslim groups are actively trying to acquire nuclear weapons now. Iran is very close to producing both nuclear weapons and a delivery system. A cause for worry by the rest of the world. I agree that the possibility of a major terrorist event is all too likely. How a western country will react to an attack with WMD is open to debate. If it is a group with no affiliation to a country, it is hard to retaliate against a country as in past wars. This is why the current 'war on terror' is asymmetrical. Much different than the good old 'cold war'. Very unpleasant situation for years to come. That much we can agree on.

[Dickie]

Terrorism cannot end... as the man said, "This is a differnt kind of war." 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Played in a different theatre. The West is geared up for a european-style of warfare: armies line up, all hel_l breaks loose, slaughter and one side has the field at the end. In the middle East they play a different game of small-scale, strike and retreat tactics. Reading the history of the Crusades shows this graphically.

Things haven't changed and, unfortunately, the pollies don't appear to have learnt anything from history. See how many personnel are employed to stand around "guarding and protecting" while the enemy moves around in small units, striking here and there.

[gievali]

Thaksin is a ###### liar, conman, fascist hawk and mouthpieces the USA on Muslim politics.

I say to all TH people u better get rid of that ###### Chinese before he drags some more down in a pool of blood.

To the one who says a Muslim is allowed by the Koran to murder non-Muslim human beings i say : may ur ###### god be with u coz u are a ###### ..... right WACKO

[Pattayaguy1999]

The problem with the Moslem faith... for the rest of us is... they do not care if they die in the name of Allah... The promise of Heaven and surrounded by 40 virgins if they die in the name of Allah. And they BELIEVE it. So, to chuck an atom bomb at the infidels is no problem for them, even if they receive several in return. And don't worry, 'when' it happens the USA will know where it came from. Personally I do not think the USA will let it get that far... They cannot afford to. My guess is the USA will do a deal with Israel and the Israelies will knock out the instilations. The War on Terrorism cannot end... as the man said, "This is a differnt kind of war."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Israelis will certainly bomb Iran's nuclear stockpile if at all possible. From what I have read, Iran has put everything nuclear very deep underground. They saw what happened to Saddam's French built nuclear reactor back in the 80s. It may not be possible to destroy their stockpile from the air. That means a clandestine attack by Special Force types. Isreal and the US simply cannot live with a radical Islamic state such as Iran joining the nuclear club. Isreal will do whatever it takes to keep nuclear weapons out of Islamic hands. They know all to well what could happen. Being surrounded by enemies will focus your mind on staying alive.

This is assuming that negoiations do not succeed in convincing the Iranians to stop trying to build nuclear weapons. I think we all hope that the talks succeed.

[gievali]

The problem with the Moslem faith... for the rest of us is... they do not care if they die in the name of Allah... The promise of Heaven and surrounded by 40 virgins if they die in the name of Allah. And they BELIEVE it. So, to chuck an atom bomb at the infidels is no problem for them, even if they receive several in return. And don't worry, 'when' it happens the USA will know where it came from. Personally I do not think the USA will let it get that far... They cannot afford to. My guess is the USA will do a deal with Israel and the Israelies will knock out the instilations. The War on Terrorism cannot end... as the man said, "This is a differnt kind of war."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Israelis will certainly bomb Iran's nuclear stockpile if at all possible. From what I have read, Iran has put everything nuclear very deep underground. They saw what happened to Saddam's French built nuclear reactor back in the 80s. It may not be possible to destroy their stockpile from the air. That means a clandestine attack by Special Force types. Isreal and the US simply cannot live with a radical Islamic state such as Iran joining the nuclear club. Isreal will do whatever it takes to keep nuclear weapons out of Islamic hands. They know all to well what could happen. Being surrounded by enemies will focus your mind on staying alive.

This is assuming that negoiations do not succeed in convincing the Iranians to stop trying to build nuclear weapons. I think we all hope that the talks succeed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't give a phuck about them nuke-talks. Who is talking anyway them Euro-cowards hé. I don't give a shit them muslims have nukes coz i got biiiiggggeeeeer nukes u c. Never mind them Koreans in the end i'll get them. What's the big deal hé coz i'm gonna get aaaalllll the tourists first anyway. Well that's what my black Foreign Secretary advised me yesterday. ###### right she is. Go figure why the other black on the job didn't tell me. Anyway nobody can say i'm a racist not even them damned muslims. Time for golf now.

[toastwars]

The Israelis will certainly bomb Iran's nuclear stockpile if at all possible. From what I have read, Iran has put everything nuclear very deep underground. They saw what happened to Saddam's French built nuclear reactor back in the 80s. It may not be possible to destroy their stockpile from the air. That means a clandestine attack by Special Force types. Isreal and the US simply cannot live with a radical Islamic state such as Iran joining the nuclear club. Isreal will do whatever it takes to keep nuclear weapons out of Islamic hands. They know all to well what could happen. Being surrounded by enemies will focus your mind on staying alive.

This is assuming that negoiations do not succeed in convincing the Iranians to stop trying to build nuclear weapons. I think we all hope that the talks succeed.

Agreed.... Who is that qievali anyways? and what the heII is he ranting about? Dumbfcuk.

I doubt the talks will succeed.

Oh dear, you are infecting this thread with your uninformed drivel now!!...Iran has no nukes stop believing the propaganda, Did Iraq have WMDs? Do you really believe that Cuba is a threat to the US? all this stuff is put out to justify the unjustifiable. Its all a smoke screen to turn you all into sheep who question not the "mighty government" because you blindly think that they have your best interests at heart..sorry to burst your bubble but they don't, read some Noam Chomsky and come back with a little more enlightened thinking, then maybe I could take you more seriously.

[toastwars]

The Israelis will certainly bomb Iran's nuclear stockpile if at all possible. From what I have read, Iran has put everything nuclear very deep underground. They saw what happened to Saddam's French built nuclear reactor back in the 80s. It may not be possible to destroy their stockpile from the air. That means a clandestine attack by Special Force types. Isreal and the US simply cannot live with a radical Islamic state such as Iran joining the nuclear club. Isreal will do whatever it takes to keep nuclear weapons out of Islamic hands. They know all to well what could happen. Being surrounded by enemies will focus your mind on staying alive.

This is assuming that negoiations do not succeed in convincing the Iranians to stop trying to build nuclear weapons. I think we all hope that the talks succeed.

Agreed.... Who is that qievali anyways? and what the heII is he ranting about? Dumbfcuk.

I doubt the talks will succeed.

Oh dear, you are infecting this thread with your uninformed drivel now!!...Iran has no nukes stop believing the propaganda, Did Iraq have WMDs? Do you really believe that Cuba is a threat to the US? all this stuff is put out to justify the unjustifiable. Its all a smoke screen to turn you all into sheep who question not the "mighty government" because you blindly think that they have your best interests at heart..sorry to burst your bubble but they don't, read some Noam Chomsky and come back with a little more enlightened thinking, then maybe I could take you more seriously.

Ahh... so you and Noam Chomsky know all the answers do you? Are you a sheep for following him, believing in him? We are all sheep of one kind or another... but you put yourself up as a ''superior sheep''. Good for you, Mr. Well-read.

Like the rest of us... you 'know' nothing... you have the same as the rest of us... 'opinions' is all. Unless that is, you want to put yourself above Socrates and Voltaire... which you probably will

I never claimed to be anything except more intelligent than yourself.. which you prove again and again with every post. I do not blindly follow anything I have the gift of reason, I look at both sides and disseminate truth from lies. I look to my morals and make a stand. I was directing my comments at you and your view point, don't try to garner support by grouping yourself with everybody else, they probably don't agree with you either.

[toastwars]

The Israelis will certainly bomb Iran's nuclear stockpile if at all possible. From what I have read, Iran has put everything nuclear very deep underground. They saw what happened to Saddam's French built nuclear reactor back in the 80s. It may not be possible to destroy their stockpile from the air. That means a clandestine attack by Special Force types. Isreal and the US simply cannot live with a radical Islamic state such as Iran joining the nuclear club. Isreal will do whatever it takes to keep nuclear weapons out of Islamic hands. They know all to well what could happen. Being surrounded by enemies will focus your mind on staying alive.

This is assuming that negoiations do not succeed in convincing the Iranians to stop trying to build nuclear weapons. I think we all hope that the talks succeed.

Agreed.... Who is that qievali anyways? and what the heII is he ranting about? Dumbfcuk.

I doubt the talks will succeed.

Oh dear, you are infecting this thread with your uninformed drivel now!!...Iran has no nukes stop believing the propaganda, Did Iraq have WMDs? Do you really believe that Cuba is a threat to the US? all this stuff is put out to justify the unjustifiable. Its all a smoke screen to turn you all into sheep who question not the "mighty government" because you blindly think that they have your best interests at heart..sorry to burst your bubble but they don't, read some Noam Chomsky and come back with a little more enlightened thinking, then maybe I could take you more seriously.

Ahh... so you and Noam Chomsky know all the answers do you? Are you a sheep for following him, believing in him? We are all sheep of one kind or another... but you put yourself up as a ''superior sheep''. Good for you, Mr. Well-read.

Like the rest of us... you 'know' nothing... you have the same as the rest of us... 'opinions' is all. Unless that is, you want to put yourself above Socrates and Voltaire... which you probably will

I never claimed to be anything except more intelligent than yourself.. which you prove again and again with every post. I do not blindly follow anything I have the gift of reason, I look at both sides and disseminate truth from fact. I look to my morals and make a stand. I was directing my comments at you and your view point, don't try to garner support by grouping yourself with everybody else, they probably don't agree with you either.

Your superior intelligence... your 'gift' of reason... yor ability to disseminate truth from fact... your superior morals...

Pal... I think you are suffering from Delusions...

I never claimed to have superior morals.

As for intelligence, reason and being able to disseminate truth from lies, I would have thought that that was the aim of all people, I have worked hard to hone these skills so that i may debate my point in a clear and reasoned manner. This is not a delusion, I am making you look this stupid

[Dickie]

Both of you will make the 'rest of us' happier by either cutting the length of your posts (by not quoting everything from previous posts) or continuing your bitching by e-mail.

[Erwin1011]

It seems to me that the discussion is veering away from the original point.

" all organized structured religions end up in powerplay and abuse "

It seems to me that Monotheistic religions are less tolerant to others than polytheistic belief systems.

But it also think it is totally irrelevant which one is worst. Religion is opium to the people.

[eljeque]

Listen, The quran commands to kill or convert all Infidels, the mosques have to

be shut down to stop the brainwashing.

TO stop the brainwashing, begin with the Thai school system. It isnot an educational system. And now, the government is trying to increase the amount of Thai nationalism being taught.

[Dickie]

Listen, The quran commands to kill or convert all Infidels, the mosques have to

be shut down to stop the brainwashing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's right, y'know.

[Nam Kao]

Just look at the religions founder - Mohammed

A mass murdering pedophile..........

What a start

[toastwars]

The depth of your bigotry and religious intollerence astounds me, it is statements like yours that caused the slaughter of 5000000 jews and instead of solving the problems in the south only inflame them. It is absolutly disgusting.

[toastwars]

The depth of your bigotry and religious intollerence astounds me, it is statements like yours that caused the slaughter of 5000000 jews and instead of solving the problems in the south only inflame them. It is absolutly disgusting.

Hey toast wars, who are you refering to now? Or are you just ranting again with the same old rhetoric?

Keep your knickers on Mary, I was refering to Nam Kao

[toastwars]

Yes I will always speak up when I see bigotry as you well know. My answer to the south well it is a tricky one but it does not include closing mosques, or wiping out muslims as has been touted around a lot on this thread, and neither do I belive that it violence is inevitable as we are all animals and are ruled by a survival of the fittest nature as you suggest. We are not animals, we have the ability to reason, feel guilt, remorse, love and all those things make us different to animals, the problems in the south will not be solved with military crackdowns, they will be solved with openess and acceptance in mainstream Thai thinking.

In your imagined world we could not complain when we get mugged because the guy was bigger than us and that is survival of the fittest, I would be able to go round to Bill gates house and smack him upside the head, shag his wife and empty his bank account. If you daughter is raped you can't call the cops because he was bigger than her and just wanted a shag so thats ok because as you think we are all just animals anyway. I am not an animal, and Ias I have said before right not might will win through in this world because I belive that most people on this earth do know right from wrong and are not afraid to say so.

You say that the more powerful and better armed always win, that is the way it is...not true, I am glad Britain did not think like that in the second world war, History is littered with the weak overcoming the strong this is undeniable or we would all be speaking latin now, or macedonian or german take your pick of the fallen mighty.

Whenever people are repressed you will cause a culture of resistance and unless they are expunged from the face of the earth then that culture will proliferate, so stop the repression and the resistance goes away. This has also been proved throughout history, Ireland, Palastine, Vietnam, to name a few. these people were repressed and fought back and are either still fighting after years of struggle in the face of overwhelming odds or are victorious in the case of vietnam.

Your arguments are nieve at best, you may think of yourself as an animal, but I for one have a little more faith in human nature

[otherstuff1957]

I know that this is a bit of a digression from your serious - and quite prolix - religious discussion, but is Islam suffering from virgin deflation? After 9/11 I kept hearing that the hijackers were all going to get 72 virgins when they went to heaven. Here, people are talking about 40 virgins. Are there so many martyrs around that they are having to ration the virgins or what?

[Dickie]

Yes I will always speak up when I see bigotry as you well know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your problem is an inability to tell cold fact from bigotry. Mohammed led the assault on Mecca because he wanted revenge. He also routinely had jews murdered, not just in Medina, and called for the extinction of christianity. As for paedophilia, read this

Marriage to Six-Year Old

In 624 Abu Bakr (Muhammad’s daily companion and one of his first believers and successor of Muhammad) gave Muhammad his daughter Aisha when she was six years old, although the actual marriage was not consummated until she was nine. This fact is uncontested by all Muslim scholars and chroniclers without exception). At the time of their marriage Muhammad was 54 years old (the age of her grandfather) – a difference of 45 years in their ages.

Your arguments are nieve at best, you may think of yourself as an animal, but I for one have a little more faith in human nature

Then you're the naive. Human nature only works for smallish groups of people, once the numbers get too big then enforcement is required to stop us ripping each other apart. There's very little altruism in the human animal.

Links on the prophet

Fallwell on mohammed

A more concise view

Bikewench's in-depth search in the koran

[Richard W]

Listen, The quran commands to kill or convert all Infidels, the mosques have to

be shut down to stop the brainwashing.

TO stop the brainwashing, begin with the Thai school system.  It isnot an educational system.  And now, the government is trying to increase the amount of Thai nationalism being taught.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Weren't local teachers transferred to other provinces? If so, that was an excellent job of making the schools alien!

[somtaamgaiyang]

The Israelis will certainly bomb Iran's nuclear stockpile if at all possible. From what I have read, Iran has put everything nuclear very deep underground. They saw what happened to Saddam's French built nuclear reactor back in the 80s. It may not be possible to destroy their stockpile from the air. That means a clandestine attack by Special Force types. Isreal and the US simply cannot live with a radical Islamic state such as Iran joining the nuclear club. Isreal will do whatever it takes to keep nuclear weapons out of Islamic hands. They know all to well what could happen. Being surrounded by enemies will focus your mind on staying alive.

This is assuming that negoiations do not succeed in convincing the Iranians to stop trying to build nuclear weapons. I think we all hope that the talks succeed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed.... Who is that qievali anyways? and what the heII is he ranting about? Dumbfcuk.

I doubt the talks will succeed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh dear, you are infecting this thread with your uninformed drivel now!!...Iran has no nukes stop believing the propaganda, Did Iraq have WMDs? Do you really believe that Cuba is a threat to the US? all this stuff is put out to justify the unjustifiable. Its all a smoke screen to turn you all into sheep who question not the "mighty government" because you blindly think that they have your best interests at heart..sorry to burst your bubble but they don't, read some Noam Chomsky and come back with a little more enlightened thinking, then maybe I could take you more seriously.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unfortunately, this is the situation today. The president of the US and Prime Minister of UK took it upon themselves to lie to their population and as such we have no reason to believe anything they say anymore. Iran may well have nuclear weapons, but much like the boy crying wolf, I do not believe the story/propaganda/information that is being fed to me thru the news networks.

If we ever see the end of "the war on terror" I would dearly love to see GW and Tony Blair held up for lying to their respective parliaments. I have absolutely no faith in either of these people, and I am not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt about any information about Iran that they choose to feed me.

This is being portrayed as a fair and just war, which I was only too willing to support as long as it was a war on perpetrators of terrorism. The b*******t that they fed to the US and UK population to convince us to go to war in Iraq is now in the open for all to see.

I do not trust the voice of my own government any more, and for that I feel very ashamed.

[somtaamgaiyang]

Unfortunately, this is the situation today.  The president of the US and Prime Minister of UK took it upon themselves to lie to their population and as such we have no reason to believe anything they say anymore.  Iran may well have nuclear weapons, but much like the boy crying wolf, I do not believe the story/propaganda/information that is being fed to me thru the news networks.

If we ever see the end of "the war on terror" I would dearly love to see GW and Tony Blair held up for lying to their respective parliaments.  I have absolutely no faith in either of these people, and I am not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt about any information about Iran that they choose to feed me. 

This is being portrayed as a fair and just war, which I was only too willing to support as long as it was a war on perpetrators of terrorism.  The b*******t that they fed to the US and UK population to convince us to go to war in Iraq is now in the open for all to see.

I do not trust the voice of my own government any more, and for that I feel very ashamed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course you are right to think the way you do and to feel the way you feel. There is also great suspition concerning 911 and the question, do we know the 'truth' of that happening?

What must be basically understood here is, we are 'always' at war. Whether it is 'visible' to the public or not. The war is a continium for world supremecy, not a "new" war or a "war on terror".

America/UK and Israel, needed a 'good' reason to go into Irak, a reason that would be acceptable to their own people, at least, and acceptable in 'principal' to the majority of the rest of the world. It is like a world power chess game... and it is difficult to 'guess' why certain moves are made, unless we know the ultimate plan... which will of course change anyways, depending on the moves of the other players.

America, the UK and Israel, now see China and India moving forwards at an alarming rate... if they are to remain the major players and keep ahead of the game, they will have to make some 'drastic' moves.

What we need to think of is this... Do we want to still be speaking English and our kids to be speaking English 25 years from now, or speaking Chinese? The next question is, do we trust our governments to make the right moves in order to stay in power? Or do we care at all?

I am sure that the USA/UK Israel and other allies are seeing the Big Picture... we are not... we are like mushrooms... kept in the dark and fed on sh!te.

To trust or not to trust... that is the question.

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To say that we are always at war puts a rather panic stricken slight on the workings of government.

Empires, wealth and power ebb and flow from country to country and will do so long after we are gone.

The analogy that the Chinese will want to colonise the world and force us all to speak Chinese misses the point.

The power wielded by presidents and prime ministers when they order an army into war is enormous. When they speak to the populous and parliament, their words should be truthful. I am sure over the years ministers have lied to parliament about the tax figures, the unemployment statistics, and national debt, but that doesn't put your army in harms way.

However, when a slick marketing trick is pulled over your eyes and the result is that young men are sent to war because of it, some of them never to return that devalues a whole country, its domestic and international reputation. This whole mess has dirtied the US and UK's reputation and it is all based on a lie about WMD.

I supported the war initially because I believed what I was told, and I mistakenly believed that politicians believed that going to war was a serious issue and that should Saddam have WMD, the world would be better off without him. Now since they have lied thru their teeth to carry out their hidden agenda, I for one will never believe another word that comes out of Bush's or Blair's mouth about anything.

Blair has ruined the international reputation of what was indeed once a great country and we deserve all the criticism we recieve from friends and foes alike because he is a downright liar. I never thought any politician could stoop so low, but then again, nothing surprises me any more.