Non O Visa - Working In Thai But For A Uk Company?

[chameleon1977]

Hi all,

I wonder if anyone can give me some help here, it would be very much appreciated.

I am married to a Thai national, we have been living in the UK for the past 4 years and we wish to return to Thailand. I am a web developer and have the unique opportunity to return to Thailand but work remotely there via the web for the company in the UK. This means I will be earning UK wages and living in Thailand. Half my dreams come true! I now have the task of figuring out how the hel_l I go about doing it all whilst keeping my legal upstanding.

I've figured out that I probably need a Type O - Non Immigrant (Spouse) Visa but I'm unsure about the legal side of working remotely via the web in Thailand. I also obviously want to avoid paying UK tax if possible.

Does anyone know how I would go about doing this? Would I need a work permit? How would I go about providing evidence of financial support given that I don't have thousands in the bank? Obviously I can say I am being paid by a UK company but do I say that or do I recieve holiday pay instead? ;o)

As I say, all help and advise would be greatly appreciated as I have not managed to find anyone explaining how to work in Thailand but for a company in the UK. Thanks in advance.

Kind Regards,

Mike T

Edited September 15, 2008 by chameleon1977

[Soutpeel]

Hi all,

I wonder if anyone can give me some help here, it would be very much appreciated.

I am married to a Thai national, we have been living in the UK for the past 4 years and we wish to return to Thailand. I am a web developer and have the unique opportunity to return to Thailand but work remotely there via the web for the company in the UK. This means I will be earning UK wages and living in Thailand. Half my dreams come true! I now have the task of figuring out how the hel_l I go about doing it all whilst keeping my legal upstanding.

I've figured out that I probably need a Type O - Non Immigrant (Spouse) Visa but I'm unsure about the legal side of working remotely via the web in Thailand. I also obviously want to avoid paying UK tax if possible.

Does anyone know how I would go about doing this? Would I need a work permit? How would I go about providing evidence of financial support given that I don't have thousands in the bank? Obviously I can say I am being paid by a UK company but do I say that or do I recieve holiday pay instead? ;o)

As I say, all help and advise would be greatly appreciated as I have not managed to find anyone explaining how to work in Thailand but for a company in the UK. Thanks in advance.

Kind Regards,

Mike T

Well first of all you need a work permit in Thailand, you dont need to show evidence of finanical stuff, but the "company" employing you will need to.. What you intend to do is technically illegal if you dont have a WP.

On your tax in the UK, you will be working as a British citizen for a UK based company, so chances are the company will take tax off you at your current UK rate, and then you are going to have to claim this back from HM Revenue Service, once you can prove you are none resident. If you are working legally in Thailand they will want tax off you as well, one way or another you will be paying tax either in the UK or in Thailand.

I should add to get around your UK tax you could form a Thai company, invoice the UK company for services rendered through the Thai company and draw your "salary" from the Thai company, but you have to be careful how much you pay yourself as you will pay tax in Thailand and if take too high a salary you could get hit for upwards of 30% tax on this end..

Edited September 15, 2008 by Soutpeel

[chameleon1977]

Thanks for the response there Soutpeel. So....I would need a work permit.

Is that something that would be easy enough to get given what I want to do work wise?

What is involved in getting one? Can you get one from the UK along with the Non-Im Visa

before getting to Thailand?

On the tax front. Could my company not take tax from me and be legally fine?

I would have no problem asking them to do this if I could prove it was going to be legally sound.

What is the tax rate like in Thailand?

Thanks Again.

Edited September 15, 2008 by chameleon1977

[Soutpeel]

Thanks for the response there Soutpeel. So....I would need a work permit.

Is that something that would be easy enough to get given what I want to do work wise?

What is involved in getting one? Can you get one from the UK along with the Non-Im Visa

before getting to Thailand?

On the tax front. Could my company not take tax from me and be legally fine?

I would have no problem asking them to do this if I could prove it was going to be legally sound.

What is the tax rate like in Thailand?

Thanks Again.

Will try and answer all these

1. Work Permit - Yes

2. Work Permit - Easy to get for what you intend to do ? - No - Will need to form a Thai Company

3. Can you get a WP in UK ? - No separate goverment department from immigration, only do in country

4. No taking tax off you in the UK ? - Dont hold your breath, The company in the UK would be committing a crime, as you would be on the books as an employee, National insurance needs to be paid, you are already a registered tax payer, so they have to account for all of this..... HM Revenue Services could go after both the company and you

5. Tax rates in Thailand -depends in income - Low as 10% - upto 37% or there abouts

hope this helps...but basically what you plan to do is not a quick 5 minute job

[chameleon1977]

This is not what I want to hear Soutpeel, can't you just tell me that it's all nice and easy,

there'll be no forms, no money involved and I'll be there by next week Hehe, just kidding.

I don't intend to be moving until later next year, so I have a while to sort stuff out.

I'm just really doing the ground work.

I don't really want to start a business as I've kinda read that it's a nightmare trying to do

that in Thailand and is there not something about a 2 million bhat investment? doh!

Is there not another way?

Is there any positives about all this? I want to live in a country I fell in love with years ago,

I have what appears to be an amazing oportunity and whatever it takes to make it work I

will do but surely it can't be a difficult as all that?

[Sunshine1607]

//edit

Just a bit too much trash in this response

//end edit

[RAZZELL]

I don't really want to start a business as I've kinda read that it's a nightmare trying to do

that in Thailand and is there not something about a 2 million bhat investment? doh!

Is there not another way?

but surely it can't be a difficult as all that?

Search "remote working" on the forum. You'll have a laugh...or a large headache

Basically, there are two camps:

Camp 1) Thai's don't know about your situation, they don't know about remote working, don't bother geting a WP, don't pay tax, stay under the radar.

Camp 2) Set-up a company, maybe call yourself a consultant, pay tax in Thailand (maybe even in the UK), get the right visa, be 100% legitimate.

The benefit's of 1) are saving money, of 2) peace of mind at a price.

As ever in Thailand "up to you"

By the way, the 2m baht does not have to be "paid-up". In other words not all of it has to be "cash" money, it can be asset's (computers, cars, etc), or even intellectual property. I believe there is some percentage which has to be "baht".

Speak to Sunbelt and make your own decision.

Good luck with the move

RAZZ

[PoorSucker]

If you make everything legitimate then there is another advantage.

Take out 40.000 baht/month as salary from your Thai company and pay Thai taxes on that (2.000 bht/month)

Then you can apply for extension of stay 1 year and don't have to go to the border every three months.

[simon43]

Or your Thai wife could register a sole-trader business, [cost only a few thousand baht]. You can be legally employed by her business and get a WP, but she must also have 2 other Thai staff legally employed, [eg secretary, coffee-maker etc]. That's a very easy and low cost route....

Simon

[Marvo]

If you make everything legitimate then there is another advantage.

Take out 40.000 baht/month as salary from your Thai company and pay Thai taxes on that (2.000 bht/month)

Then you can apply for extension of stay 1 year and don't have to go to the border every three months.

Re the Thai employees that your company needs to have before applying for a WP, do their salaries have to be shown as actually being paid by the company or are the tax payments to the government enough alone?

Edited September 16, 2008 by Marvo

[Soutpeel]

If you make everything legitimate then there is another advantage.

Take out 40.000 baht/month as salary from your Thai company and pay Thai taxes on that (2.000 bht/month)

Then you can apply for extension of stay 1 year and don't have to go to the border every three months.

Was under the impression (may be wrong) that for extension of stay, in addtion to the tax paid on salary, you needed THB 2.0 mil captialisation and 4 Thai employees ? or if married to Thai national THB 1.0 mil and two Thai employees

Also believe the minimum salary paid needs to be THB 50,000 not THB 40,000 as British citizen

[Soutpeel]

If you make everything legitimate then there is another advantage.

Take out 40.000 baht/month as salary from your Thai company and pay Thai taxes on that (2.000 bht/month)

Then you can apply for extension of stay 1 year and don't have to go to the border every three months.

Re the Thai employees that your company needs to have before applying for a WP, do their salaries have to be shown as actually being paid by the company or are the tax payments to the government enough alone?

Not only tax, need to pay "national insurance" for the employees, also understand these days you may get a visit from the Thai authorities to your business premises to ensure your employees are real and not ghost employees

[Soutpeel]

Or your Thai wife could register a sole-trader business, [cost only a few thousand baht]. You can be legally employed by her business and get a WP, but she must also have 2 other Thai staff legally employed, [eg secretary, coffee-maker etc]. That's a very easy and low cost route....

Simon

Simon, remember reading somewhere that getting a work permit under a sole-trader type business was possible legally, but very difficult to do in practice ?

If this is the case, why to most legal companies recommend going the limited company route..?

Very interested to know the differences between the two related to getting a W/P

[scifi]

Was under the impression (may be wrong) that for extension of stay, in addtion to the tax paid on salary, you needed THB 2.0 mil captialisation and 4 Thai employees ? or if married to Thai national THB 1.0 mil and two Thai employees

Soutpeel, I think you are right concerning extension of stay for business, but for extension of stay for support of Thai wife, you basically just need 40,000 THB combined income and tax receipts. Even if you are holding a Non-B visa you can apply for extension of stay for support of Thai wife.

If this is the case, why to most legal companies recommend going the limited company route..?

Very interested to know the differences between the two related to getting a W/P

I am also interested. I expect legal firms push formation of a Thai company as it might be more of an earner for them.

[scifi]

To the OP: RAZZELL sums up your situation very well. There is no other way around it. Make you choice and then make your plans.

[chameleon1977]

Thank you all for your replies. They all much appreciated.

I am most intrigued with Simon's idea and the posts around that as it sounds like the best route for me to take. Also liked Razzell post. Thanks guys.

Turns out my wife's Thai friend has a business in Thailand already so I'm going to explore this avenue and try to go the setting up a Thai business route with my wife. I will go the legal route either way as it's not just me I'm moving it's a wife and two kids and I wouldn't jeopardise their future.

The tax part of it I have covered with my employer now. In order to not pay UK tax when I'm not living in the UK, all I need to do is become a contractor for them instead and I send them the bill and account for my own taxes. This mean they are liable for nothing and as I won't be living the UK neither should I be (in the UK).

Thanks again, and if anyone has anymore on setting up a business as a Thai national and employing a falang that'd be super.

Edited September 16, 2008 by chameleon1977

[heapsofme]

I see the Thai tax rates published on many sites,

But is it 37% of the 50,000bht min for wage, or is it progressive like in Oz?

What is it for a 50k month wage?

Is the 5% (I think social insurance) of the gross amount?

[Soutpeel]

I see the Thai tax rates published on many sites,

But is it 37% of the 50,000bht min for wage, or is it progressive like in Oz?

What is it for a 50k month wage?

Is the 5% (I think social insurance) of the gross amount?

No its not 37%, its a sliding scale, you should be paying around 4-5%, the cut off for the 10% tax bracket is around THB 1.0mil a year

[NightOwl888]

chameleon1977

Funny, this was exactly the same question I had on my post here. In fact, I will also be doing web development for an overseas (US) company while in Thailand.

First of all, I was told by Siam Legal that to work in Thailand you will need a Non-Immigrant B visa, not a Non-Immigrant O. Others have stated that it probably doesn't make much difference because a work permit can be obtained either way. However, since it sounds like a business will need to be set up in Thailand to get a work permit, you are probably better off with a Non-Immigrant B. Since you have a Thai wife, the O type may be right for you, speak to an attorney before making the decision which visa to apply for as it could affect your chances of getting approved.

There seems to be a lot of confusion around this issue because the members at TV will tell you the opposite of what it says on the Thai Embassy website (at least the one in the US). If you have never worked in Thailand before, you do not need a WP before you can get the visa.

From http://www2.thaiembdc.org/consular/visa/Non-Img.aspx under Non-Immigrant type "B" visa:

· A copy of Work Permit issued by the Ministry of Labour and alien income tax or Por Ngor Dor 91 (only in the case where applicant has previously worked in Thailand)

The issue here is that most of the people giving advice have been renewing their visa and in that case you do need a work permit to apply. However, for entry into the country you will need the Non-Immigrant B visa before you leave the UK shores and a work permit is not a requirement to obtain it.

A requirement that is needed however, is a letter of invitation from a Thai company. I have been told this company can be a Thai law firm, and hiring a law firm is probably the easiest way to obtain one if you are not going to be working for a Thai company. In your case, you might be able to have your wife set up the company first and create the letter of invitation which will save you money, but it will likely not be as easy as hiring the attorney yourself to get the visa.

Once in Thailand, a business will need to be established in order to get a work permit. Despite what Siam Legal told me, everything I have read indicates that a work permit is required to work within Thailand legally, even if it is for a foreign company. In my case, I am a self-employed consultant and my client is a US company, which probably means I have to set up a company in Thailand and get a work permit. If you are employed by the company in the UK, it may be a different scenario than mine.

Edited September 16, 2008 by NightOwl888

[RAZZELL]

Thank you all for your replies. They all much appreciated.

I am most intrigued with Simon's idea and the posts around that as it sounds like the best route for me to take. Also liked Razzell post. Thanks guys.

Turns out my wife's Thai friend has a business in Thailand already so I'm going to explore this avenue and try to go the setting up a Thai business route with my wife. I will go the legal route either way as it's not just me I'm moving it's a wife and two kids and I wouldn't jeopardise their future.

The tax part of it I have covered with my employer now. In order to not pay UK tax when I'm not living in the UK, all I need to do is become a contractor for them instead and I send them the bill and account for my own taxes. This mean they are liable for nothing and as I won't be living the UK neither should I be (in the UK).

Thanks again, and if anyone has anymore on setting up a business as a Thai national and employing a falang that'd be super.

Very sensible

Remember, it's advisable to earn a minimum amount and pay tax in LOS (can't remember, is it 50,000 a month?) for future PR applications etc.

All the best with your move

RAZZ

Edited September 16, 2008 by RAZZELL

[NightOwl888]

I just had an online chat with Sunbelt Asia and confirmed the following things...

1. The type of visa required for this activity is Non-Immigrant B.
   
2. A work permit is not required to apply for the visa for the first time.
   
3. A lawfirm such as Sunbelt Asia or Siam Legal can legally sponsor you so you won't need a letter from a prospective employer to get the Non-Immigrant B visa.
   
4. A work permit is required before you can legally work in Thailand, and can be obtained after you enter Thailand.
   
5. Setting up a Thai business is required if you wish to hire Thai employees, but is not required if you are working for a foreign company by yourself.
   
6. If you do not set up a business, a work permit can be issued on the basis of a Non-Immigrant B visa entry status alone.
   

All of the above statements (except for the one about the work permit requirement to work) are inline with what Siam Legal said.

[NightOwl888]

One more thing I confirmed - for a Non-Immigrant B visa, you have to physically exit the country every 90 days, you cannot just register with immigration.

[Soutpeel]

One more thing I confirmed - for a Non-Immigrant B visa, you have to physically exit the country every 90 days, you cannot just register with immigration.

Not strictly true, depends on your circumstances, have been on a Non-imm B for last 7 years and never had to do a visa run, ie physically exit the country, I just report to immigration in country every 90 days...

[digitalchromakey]

One more thing I confirmed - for a Non-Immigrant B visa, you have to physically exit the country every 90 days, you cannot just register with immigration.

Not strictly true, depends on your circumstances, have been on a Non-imm B for last 7 years and never had to do a visa run, ie physically exit the country, I just report to immigration in country every 90 days...

That is because you are on an Extension of Permission to Stay. The OP will not qualify for that.

[simon43]

Working for a Thai sole-trader is perfectly possible, and perhaps it is because the fees are so low that some legal companies deny that this easy solution exists. But there are some downsides:

- If you work for a sole-trader, regardless of high your salary is, you are not eligible to obtain a one-year visa extension based upon your employment. But if you are married to a Thai lady, and your joint income is at least 40.000 baht each month, then you can apply for your visa extension based upon support of your Thai wife.

- A sole-trader has no liability protection for the business owner, unlike a limited liability business. So your wife could be personally sued, as opposed to someone suing your ltd company.

There are quite a few threads about sole-traders. Sunbelt definitely know about how to get a WP for this scenario.

Simon