Thai Education

[myauq]

a lot of people on tv (perhaps rightly) complain about the poor education system in thailand.

it's easy to see how a poor education system would leave people not knowing or - even worse - not wanting to know about other countries, languages, or anything that could give them better life chances.

the poor quality of schooling (alongside free media coverage) has also been cited as a reason for the ongoing political problems. thai education is crap. yes, we know.

but can anyone give us some actual examples, or perhaps some ajarn out there could recount some personal experiences. i.e. what kind of material do they teach from text books, what kinds of exercises are students asked to do, what experiences have people had teaching students new things, what do teachers say about farangs, do parents ever hassle for the principal etc, etc.

would be good to read some reports, or if someone could post a link to a website that would be cool too.

Edited September 20, 2008 by Crow Boy
Modification of subject line

[teacup]

Wow...sooo many questions

To sum: It wasn't all that crap to me - speaking from own experience

[wintermute]

I'm no ajarn but I know a couple who work in universities here. The main complaint is that there is a lack of adherence to international standards. In areas like math, science, and english it's particularly important to have a international metric to strive towards. Thai schools seem to push people through the system regardless.

There are some cultural factors too. Failure is generally not seen as an option for face reasons. Educators here are more concerned with dressing up the pig in new clothes rather than figuring out why they are dressing a pig to begin with. Also, let's face it Thais aren't the most academic people to begin with and the work ethic is spotty.

The government is pretty lax and they can't come up with any experts to address the issue nor do they want to seek outside assistance in building their infrastructure. They know it's a problem but they don't understand how or why they should fix it.

[Boater]

I'm no ajarn but I know a couple who work in universities here. The main complaint is that there is a lack of adherence to international standards. In areas like math, science, and english it's particularly important to have a international metric to strive towards. Thai schools seem to push people through the system regardless.

There are some cultural factors too. Failure is generally not seen as an option for face reasons. Educators here are more concerned with dressing up the pig in new clothes rather than figuring out why they are dressing a pig to begin with. Also, let's face it Thais aren't the most academic people to begin with and the work ethic is spotty.

The government is pretty lax and they can't come up with any experts to address the issue nor do they want to seek outside assistance in building their infrastructure. They know it's a problem but they don't understand how or why they should fix it.

Very Well Put

[myauq]

I'm no ajarn but I know a couple who work in universities here. The main complaint is that there is a lack of adherence to international standards. In areas like math, science, and english it's particularly important to have a international metric to strive towards. Thai schools seem to push people through the system regardless.

There are some cultural factors too. Failure is generally not seen as an option for face reasons. Educators here are more concerned with dressing up the pig in new clothes rather than figuring out why they are dressing a pig to begin with. Also, let's face it Thais aren't the most academic people to begin with and the work ethic is spotty.

The government is pretty lax and they can't come up with any experts to address the issue nor do they want to seek outside assistance in building their infrastructure. They know it's a problem but they don't understand how or why they should fix it.

Very Well Put

agreed - nice one.

i kind of imagined that the face issue would be a bit of a serious problem here.

[bkkjames]

Wow...sooo many questions

To sum: It wasn't all that crap to me - speaking from own experience

As a product of the system

A position to not comment and listen

Speaks for itself

That failure is without help

When those that preach

Instead of teach

For fear of the unknown

And have it be shown

That facts are more

are more telling than face

[Pierrot]

Could someone please explain me something.

If education is not a priority, why academics are so well regarded in Thailand? I can't figure out why, every time there is a problem, they found some obscure lecturer to give his opinion, how to fix the economy, the government ,.... And, as far as I'm concerned, none of them are Nobel prize material but that's just my opinion.

But the main question is, if they care so little about education, why academics are held in so high esteem ?

Edited September 16, 2008 by Pierrot

[teacup]

Wow...sooo many questions

To sum: It wasn't all that crap to me - speaking from own experience

As a product of the system

A position to not comment and listen

Speaks for itself

That failure is without help

When those that preach

Instead of teach

For fear of the unknown

And have it be shown

That facts are more

are more telling than face

I concur....jing jing ja

[Scott]

Education is a very broad subject to cover and here in Thailand some areas are done reasonably well and others not so well. The same is true in a lot of countries. Some countries do a very good job of primary education, but fall short in high school and higher education. In my experience here, I feel fairly confident with primary education and see a relatively well done job, by and large.

By secondary eduction and higher things begin to break down a little more. There are a lot of poorly qualified teachers who are in front of the classrooms and don't know their material particularly well for starters. Secondly, as a very general rule, teachers aren't ever wrong and children are taught early on no to question things. This is very much cultural and in return for respect and patronage, a student will be passed. The emphasis, therefore, is on stressing cultural norms and values rather than education itself.

We also have to remember that education tends to lag behind scientific and technological advancement. My own kids were reprimanded in many ways for playing around with video games and computers--at that time it was seen as a waste of time! Now, it is how one of them makes his living. Had he listened to me, he'd be shoveling sh*t with his brother who did!

[thesunset75]

As long as we have crap government, Thai education still being crap.

[PhilHarries]

I'm no ajarn either but from the limited experience I have with the products of the Thai education system I'd say the problem is multi-facetted and stretches from the very bottom to the very top.

Firstly I'd like to admit that these are sweeping generalisations and there are wide variations within the profession.

1. The Thai teaching profession is not of very high standing, similar to many western countries. Therefore it doesn't attract the brightest of it's own products.

2. The resources in personnel, materials and equipment is generally very poor and over stretched. A lot of the materials are poor quality and out of date.

3. For the poorer section of society family survival depends not on education but on getting the whole family out working. Then on top of that they don't have the money to send their kids to further education.

4. For those, generally of middle class and above extraction, that make it to further education there is little pressure to learn. Why slog your guts out if you are going to get a degree anyway? The "no fail" system is consistantly failing the people and the country.

5. There's the face thing within the profession where teachers are unwilling to question the directives issued by their superiors. Their superiors are unwilling to listen to the voice of change because their way was the way of their predessors.

The Thai education system is geared to churning out rice farmers, fishermen, garment workers, shop keepers etc etc. A very thin layer of students are skimmed off to go to university or vocational college many of which, in addition to their second class qualifications, end up in dead end jobs because there is little demand for their skills.

Well that's my take on it, right or wrong, based on my observations. The Thai education system does turn out many bright young people in spite of it's best efforts to do otherwise. Will it ever change? Not all the time Thailand has this, almost feudal, system of patronage that passes for government.

[bkkjames]

As long as we have crap government, Thai education still being crap.

I would think the education system would suck in the USA, UK or anywhere in the west for that matter if what you say is true. No room for PAD SPAM on here thanks.

[myauq]

Secondly, as a very general rule, teachers aren't ever wrong and children are taught early on no to question things. This is very much cultural and in return for respect and patronage, a student will be passed. The emphasis, therefore, is on stressing cultural norms and values rather than education itself.

wow - that's pretty scary.

kind of helps to answer pierrot's question about all the respect that teachers get.

[Andrew Hicks]

a lot of people on tv (perhaps rightly) complain about the poor education system in thailand.

it's easy to see how a poor education system would leave people not knowing or - even worse - not wanting to know about other countries, languages, or anything that could give them better life chances.

the poor quality of schooling (alongside free media coverage) has also been cited as a reason for the ongoing political problems. thai education is crap. yes, we know.

but can anyone give us some actual examples, or perhaps some ajarn out there could recount some personal experiences. i.e. what kind of material do they teach from text books, what kinds of exercises are students asked to do, what experiences have people had teaching students new things, what do teachers say about farangs, do parents ever hassle for the principal etc, etc.

would be good to read some reports, or if someone could post a link to a website that would be cool too.

A fundamental issue is that the general approach to education in Asia (wild generalisation but true) is rote learning of information rather than developing critical thinking and a skills based approach. I have lectured at two Asian universities for a total of 12 years and a major aspect of our work was supplying this inadequacy in the students' earlier education.

Two more specific issues I've observed in Thailand.

1. In teaching English in schools the teacher charges on through the curriculum in the course book without regard to the children's actual attainment. Thus he/she is teaching at a level that is years in advance of of what they (or for that matter the teacher!) actually can understand.

2. In further education, a degree or other course is loaded with hundreds of peripheral subjects that the student has to study in addition to their major. I fear this may be primarily to support unpopular subjects and to keep classrooms full, but the result is not quality of education but quantity. Superficiality rules.

The overall problems go to the very root of Thai society I fear.

Jai yen yen. Mai pen rai. Sod it all!

Go back to your hammock or watch telly.

[thesunset75]

As long as we have crap government, Thai education still being crap.

I would think the education system would suck in the USA, UK or anywhere in the west for that matter if what you say is true. No room for PAD SPAM on here thanks.

I am NOT PAD Spam

[wintermute]

Well that's my take on it, right or wrong, based on my observations. The Thai education system does turn out many bright young people in spite of it's best efforts to do otherwise. Will it ever change? Not all the time Thailand has this, almost feudal, system of patronage that passes for government.

The talented young people in Thailand who are bright enough will often go overseas and excel where they are appreciated and rewarded for their intellect and skills. The vast majority of my Thai friends either studied abroad and/or work for multinationals. There is another layer to this problem and that is brain drain.

Singapore recognized this early on and gave full ride scholarships to intelligent but poor students in various SE asian nations to encourage them to immigrate and contribute to Singapore. This was a brilliant move and some of those students became leaders in their respective fields or went back home and became leaders who opened up various doors to Singaporean investment later on.

[thesunset75]

As long as we have crap government, Thai education still being crap.

I would think the education system would suck in the USA, UK or anywhere in the west for that matter if what you say is true. No room for PAD SPAM on here thanks.

I am NOT PAD Spam

But I can see gov’t schools in rural area are poor education system..Rarely been help by the govt. Have a few old crap computers and many students don’t even know how to use, no internet access, all computer only for M/S Office…Teachers are people in the area who have little higher educated. I saw many children who going to that school have a very small world and knowledge, lower education standard compare to gov’t schools in BKK. And only people who have more money then can go to private school where they have better teachers or even have farang teachers. If the education ministry doesn’t only think of how much money they can take and care for all the education system then I would not mention about govt.

[Lost in LOS]

don't know about the schooling before college but my girlfriend is in her first year of college and wants help with her homework. I have trouble doing it, law, computers etc. including the English. she reads and writes English 90% but speaks it 60%. they got rid of the native English teacher and have a Philippine and Thai teaching English now, so the speaking comes with an accent and I dont understand much of what she says. we are working on that

[Mosha]

Around here I know of 1 Thai English teacher who can speak conversational English. That's in 6 schools. She also by her own admission teaches art, and is crap at art herself.

[elkangorito]

1. In teaching English in schools the teacher charges on through the curriculum in the course book without regard to the children's actual attainment. Thus he/she is teaching at a level that is years in advance of of what they (or for that matter the teacher!) actually can understand.

The overall problems go to the very root of Thai society I fear.

The overall problems go to the very root of Thai society I is fear.

In reply to your point 1. above.

This is exactly what happens at the institution in which I work (tertiary education).

At a guess, I would say that about 95% of the students (all 4000 of them) are very poor at English. Regardless of this, the textbooks purchased by the institution are rated as either "intermediate" or "advanced". The "learner" rated books are restricted for use by the 1st year students only.

Each student usually does one hour per week of English, so if an "advanced" textbook is being used, the recommended teaching "timetable" within the textbook is also followed.

The result of this is that only a few students manage to understand & retain the information that is "raced" through.

The system in Thailand seems to "over-teach" some students. To become an electrician, students are dragged through engineering theory (theorems, complex numbers etc) when clearly an electrician has little to no use for such. Conversely, these same students will spend a tiny amount of time being instructed on "practice" (working with hands). There is such a thing as DVT (Dual Vocational Training) in Thailand but it is optional for the student. It is, however, the closest thing to an apprenticeship in Thailand.

The testing system in Thailand (for English students) is flawed. At my institution, all tests are multiple choice. Speaking & listening tests are left to me. I am required to test about 650 students with regard to their listening & speaking skills. Even if I allow a maximum of 3 minutes "testing time" per student, it still takes about 3 weeks. Can a student's listening & speaking skills be judged in 3 minutes? Not really. The only thing that this test will really determine is basically a "yes/no" thing..."yes, they can" or "no, they can't" listen/speak English.

At one school (in BKK), I was asked not to conduct "proper" tests. Why? It would take too long (didn't fit in with their "multiple choice" timetable). Another teacher actually told me that she refused to mark written exams because it was too time consuming.

My summation.

1] Emphasis is placed upon quantity rather than quality (revenue?). Subjects are taught too quickly.

2] Older Thai teachers tend to stick to the outdated cultural idea that teachers are always correct & students must not ask questions.

3] A 40% weighting is given to a student's "morality" as a part of there overall mark (complete rubbish..get rid of this).

4] Attendance should not form a part of a tertiary student's overall mark.

5] An inane "assessment" system exists whereby students are asked to comment upon teachers. There seems to be no "right of reply" in this method of assessment & leaves a door open for someone seeking revenge or someone who wants to make trouble, since this system is taken seriously. This system needs to be abolished. If a student has a problem with a teacher, an avenue of communication should be available such that a student can "fairly & openly" voice their grievance & the "accused" has a "right of reply". The current method of assessment can quickly become a "kangaroo court".

6] Final examinations should not have a majority weighting for an overall mark. Semester/yearly testing should be regular & carry proportional weightings for the overall mark. The latter is not done at my institution.

Edited September 16, 2008 by elkangorito

[samtam]

Fascinating discussion. I am curious to know whether pupils are ever taught the difference between a truth and a lie. The post from elkangorito mentions a morality weighting, but as telling the truth here seems to be a problem, I presume morality doesn't include truth and deception.

[jumnien]

While not perfect, the Thai education system seems to produce adults who are far more pleasant to live amongst than bestial-mannered populace of England, Australia and the United States.

[bkkjames]

Glad you didn't include Canada eh or we would have had words!

[elkangorito]

While not perfect, the Thai education system seems to produce adults who are far more pleasant to live amongst than bestial-mannered populace of England, Australia and the United States.

The Thai education system does not produce "adults who are far more pleasant to live amongst". I think you'll find that it is the all encompassing "culture" that produces these people. The Thai education system simply does what everybody else mindlessly does...that is, conform to the culture.

[jumnien]

While not perfect, the Thai education system seems to produce adults who are far more pleasant to live amongst than bestial-mannered populace of England, Australia and the United States.

The Thai education system does not produce "adults who are far more pleasant to live amongst". I think you'll find that it is the all encompassing "culture" that produces these people. The Thai education system simply does what everybody else mindlessly does...that is, conform to the culture.

Which is why it is so pleasant to live here, is it not?

[elkangorito]

Just to keep things on topic, teaching is certainly very pleasant here. This is mainly because the system is crap & once you outgrow the idea of trying to improve the system, you grin & bear it. Why soar alone like an eagle when you can run around with all the other turkeys, joking all day long?

[PeaceBlondie]

Teaching children to be compliant, uncomplaining, patriotic members of their nation is not a duty or measure of academics, but it works in Thailand, Myanmar, China, Cuba, etc.

I monitored the 8th grade math final exam, and found mistakes in the questions and answers. It did not matter. Nothing really seriously matters. In fact it is not Thai to be serious. But the ajarns dress very nicely on Fridays, smile and wai well, and drive nice cars.

If the Thai teachers of English can mangle the English tests so badly, it is a Thai cultural trait. No matter anyway. It makes you wonder how any uni graduate knows their major subject material, though.

[elkangorito]

At my place of work, there are some (a handful) of Thai teachers who disagree with the "culturally indoctrinated" method of teaching. Their opinion has put them in a very difficult situation - they feel that they have to somehow change the education system without upsetting their peers. Quite often, the cost of alienation for these people is too great & they end up submitting. The winner - ego. The losers - Thai students.

[Pierrot]

Teaching children to be compliant, uncomplaining, patriotic members of their nation is not a duty or measure of academics, but it works in Thailand, Myanmar, China, Cuba, etc.

Sorry but China is now catching up with the world for all kind of high tech products. For quite some time, some of the best Chinese brains were moving to USA (just look at the name at the bottom of a number of scientific papers) but it's now over, they find better opportunities in China. What you say may be true in politic or litterature but not in science.

[Samuian]

........edit..... They know it's a problem but they don't understand how or why they should fix it.

"Na: dae:k" or Face loss is the underlying really important, above all issue! hopefully it may fade away in the future, till then many countries enjoy to educate the children of the the well to do!