Is los a democracy?

[ChiangMaiThai]

I don't mean this sarcastically. I am really wondering.

When a government which allows for a countries' police force to go into random bars and clubs, hold all patrons against their will, force them to pee into a cup, test for drugs and arrest those who do not pass this test, can this government be said to be operating under a democracy? Are these democratic ideals?

Or, because the government is elected by the people, is whatever they do acceptable? Can this open policy of guilty until proven innocent exist in a true democracy?

[mrentoul]

Or, because the government is elected by the people, is whatever they do acceptable?

If a government enjoys popular appeal (and Thaksin is very popular), just how much can it get away with and still call itself a democracy? Good question.

Presumably those politicians have a good idea of what voters will tolerate. The war on drugs was popular, even though it took more than 2000 lives and left many more bereaved. However, it did not go down well with ''grown-up'' democracies such as the US.

According to a Reuters story which George posted here the other day, economic growth this year is expected to reach 4.8 percent, second only to China in Asia. Consumer confidence is also high.

While the economy is healthy, I suspect this government's popularity will stay high (just like any government). If the economy soured, voters would quickly grow sick of it. In that respect it would behave no differently from any other democracy.

However, this appears to be a government where corruption and cronyism are rife; and where respect for human rights is scant. Those things don't happen in healthy democracies.

Thaksin, for all the hype, is not immune from criticism. I recall the King's birthday speech a couple of years ago where the King took a poke at Thaksin. My Thai friends talked about it for days; if the King was unhappy with Thaksin, then Thaksin was no good.

The Monarchy can act as a good democracy buffer when governments like Thaksin's get too strong.

Thailand is a democracy going through growing pains. If I had a vote I don't think I'd care how many paper cups I had to pee into; as long people were in jobs I think I'd be happy.

[samuisam]

Pridi Banyomyong(?) is the father of Thai Democracy.  Read his works, and follow the struggle that the people are still fighting.  Also check out See Phandin - a movie about the change from Monarchy to the first democracy, before all the military coups. (It is also a book - means 4 reigns, I think)

[TRIPxCORE]

According to Thailand, the technical term they use to describe themselves is a "Constitutional Monarchy."

[ChiangMaiThai]

mrentoul, I think you make some good points. No doubt that Thaksin is getting things done and getting results. However, as has been pointed out by Senators in the US, if the US was made into an absolute police state it would be much easier to catch the terrorists. However, certain personal leberties simply can not be infringed upon. In Thailand, continuing on the path chosen by Thaksin will no doubt reap certain results, but at what cost?

But, I think the fundamental question is this: Is the action of police holding people against their will, assuming they are guilty until they prove themselves innocent, a legal and accepted practice in Thailand?

[haltes]

No Thailand is not a democracy and in fact contravenes the United Nations Convention of Human Rights.

A democracy is government of the people, by the people. As Thailand denies the right to represent the people to only those who have degrees, it limits the number of people who can actually become MPs to only about 5% of the population.

Having one party too powerful, with no effective opposition, is another matter but also weakens democracy. There must be checks and balances on power in order for a democracy to be effective.

[Butterfly]

I don't mean this sarcastically. I am really wondering.

When a government which allows for a countries' police force to go into random bars and clubs, hold all patrons against their will, force them to pee into a cup, test for drugs and arrest those who do not pass this test, can this government be said to be operating under a democracy? Are these democratic ideals?

Or, because the government is elected by the people, is whatever they do acceptable? Can this open policy of guilty until proven innocent exist in a true democracy?

This has nothing to do with democracy. This is a complete different question and a human right discussion. Look at the US for a best example. Are they a democracy from your example below with their "new" laws to "arrest" people on the spot ? technically yes even though most Americans are being abused systematically and daily in their individual rights

[Butterfly]

No Thailand is not a democracy and in fact contravenes the United Nations Convention of Human Rights.

A democracy is government of the people, by the people. As Thailand denies the right to represent the people to only those who have degrees, it limits the number of people who can actually become MPs to only about 5% of the population.

Having one party too powerful, with no effective opposition, is another matter but also weakens democracy. There must be checks and balances on power in order for a democracy to be effective.

You need to review your definition of "democracy" as obviously your are confusing many things with Democracy.

Technically you could leave under a dictatorship and still have more individual rights than any democracy in the world. Don't confuse individual rights and a system to elect officials.

[D80]

samuisam,

Just thought you might like to know, the name is 'Pridi Panomyong'

[buasaard]

As Thailand denies the right to represent the people to only those who have degrees, it limits the number of people who can actually become MPs to only about 5% of the population.

In Italy the Republic President must be over 50 years old. Do you mean that Italy is not a democracy?

U.S. citizens not born in USA cannot become president. Infact couldn't become president Henry Kissinger, can't John Mc Enroe (who knows his future political career) and (fortunately) can't Arnold Schwarzenegger. 32,000,000 people living in U.S.A. were born abroad and suspect most of them are U.S. citizens. For this reason U.S. is not a democracy?

I admit that a degree is too much (maybe a bachelor would have been enough), but who would vote someone that didn't go to school at all? Maybe it's more discriminatory the american rule.

I think Thailand is what is commonly called "democracy", though not a helthy democracy.

[mrvietnam2001]

Democracy=2 hungry wolves and a lamb having a conversation about what's for dinner.

There is not a single country in the world that is Free. The closest the world got in 6,000 years was in 1776 and that of course was bastardized by the federal government starting in the 1850's which reached a cresendo during the reign of a very sharp lawyer named lincoln. Fortunately the man was shot and killed ( albeit too late) and the next real advance towards democratic destruction was under the reign of wilson. Then roosevelt, johnson, nixon the reagan and we all are well aware ( are we now?) of the current bunch mouthing the words of freedom while systematicallly destroying the percentages that are left.

And this is the best it gets boys and girls for the average grunt working class idiot.

Now expats for the most part although not necessarily able to articulate even the definition of freedom certainly by and large have indeed "expatriated" so as to find that "Life" whereas we can go a little bit further up the road of freedom, while somehow advancing our own live and let live schedules while becoming a sort of invisible entity, with less shackles in our respective adopted countries ( regardless of the group or ideology running the place) than we can possibly find in our own.

That's the way I see it.

See y'all on the yellow brick road of adventure.

Mr Vietnam  

[PREM-R]

This topic could be 'dodgy ground'. Not so long ago a Thai radio station was running a phone-in and several callers were critical of Khun Thaksin and his crew, the next day the station was threatened with having its contracts cancelled and they had to promise not to host anymore phone-ins.

I don't know if the Thai authorities are aware of the Thaivisa forums or take note of what is posted, but I would not like to see Dr_pat pong, George, Fester et al, moved to 'inactive posts'.   :cool:

[Butterfly]

Despite what some people here thinks, Thaksin is actually very unpopular. If you need to follow the polls, it won't give you any clue as the official poll agency has been raided several times by the police.

Thais can see through this bozo and just hope that he will be gone soon. He has no support from anyone as he has alienated about everyone in Thai society. The only people who support him are his familly and since they run a lot of businesses in Thailand, I guess their vote and support make up for more than the rest of it.

[wolf5370]

People complain about the corruption; they complain about the sex industry being so in-your-face (OK not everybody here, but still); they complain about pirated goods; they compain about drugs; they complain about mafia involvement in everything from getting a job to hiring a motorbike taxi.

These complaints are external as well as internal - WTO/IMF etc.

To change a country like Thailand with endemic institutional corruption, takes a hard man. It takes unpopular decisions. It takes personal bravery on a massive scale. With some Taksin is popular; with others he is not. In the future, if allowed to succeed, he will be looked back apon as a national hero - like Pridi. After all Pridi died in exile after being both a revolutionary and later the PM!

Personally, I forgive him the results of some of those decisions and I applaude his tenacity, gaul and sheer bravery in following the line that will help, perhaps for the first time since King Chulalongkorn, the poorest and least connected over the powerful. I take my hat off.

Change is a strugle. Change on this scale is almost chaotic; how do you cut large chunks from the supporting structure that has been holding up the system of government for so many decades. Rotting timber or not, it is a dangerous job - especially when perched precariously on top. However, after the chaos, after the change, come peace and understanding. The calm that follows the storm. Give him time and a little rope, he may suprise us by, instead of hanging himself, transforming Thailand into what Pridi wanted when he helped make Siam a 'Consitutional Monarchy'.

[bkkgs]

Is it naivete or wishfull thinking that Mr. T is improving this country? He just named his cousin army chief (okay- maybe he is the most qualified). This follows a year of putting his family and classmates in positions of power. Think about it. Do you ever wonder why he isnt tougher on Burma? It seems he doesnt want Burma to be more like Thailand, he wants Thailand to be more like Burma.

Theres a saying in American politics- "It's the economy, stupid". As long as the economy is good, people will put up with just about anything. So as long as the banks, car dealers, etc keep giving away credit he will have support here. But if this bubble bursts (as has been warned by several economists lately) then he is going to have problems. Thats when all those relatives and cronies will come in handy.

[mrentoul]

Despite what some people here thinks, Thaksin is actually very unpopular. If you need to follow the polls, it won't give you any clue as the official poll agency has been raided several times by the police.

I'm afraid that's just not true. Get out there and talk to a few people. Thaksin has a good name on the streets...even among the eggheads with whom I work.

[Butterfly]

Is it naivete or wishfull thinking that Mr. T is improving this country? He just named his cousin army chief (okay- maybe he is the most qualified). This follows a year of putting his family and classmates in positions of power. Think about it. Do you ever wonder why he isnt tougher on Burma? It seems he doesnt want Burma to be more like Thailand, he wants Thailand to be more like Burma.

Theres a saying in American politics- "It's the economy, stupid". As long as the economy is good, people will put up with just about anything. So as long as the banks, car dealers, etc keep giving away credit he will have support here. But if this bubble bursts (as has been warned by several economists lately) then he is going to have problems. Thats when all those relatives and cronies will come in handy.

Excellent. You are 100% on the money. I am surprised how naive people can be with such a clown. He is a CEO from the corportate world. What do you think he is doing in the government ? this is like Hannibal Lector directing the Hasylum. A dream come true for any business leader.

How seriously can you take a political leader who think he can conduct strategic public policies in less than 3 months. He is a fraud and I know one when I see one.

[Butterfly]

Despite what some people here thinks, Thaksin is actually very unpopular. If you need to follow the polls, it won't give you any clue as the official poll agency has been raided several times by the police.

I'm afraid that's just not true. Get out there and talk to a few people. Thaksin has a good name on the streets...even among the eggheads with whom I work.

Well, I hear a different story. Maybe the very rich like him as they are sure he will boost again the bubble in the property market and SET market.

However he is recognized in the street for making it rich and people look upon this. But this is different from supporting his public policies. Scratch the surface and you will see that those people are actually not supporting him or his government.

[wolf5370]

Still think we may be reading too much into 'putting class mates and family into key positions'.

Assuming he is trying to do the right thing (bear with me a sec) he would still have to have got to a position where he could - get elected. There are probably many ministers that do love the country more than the money and will not sell out. That doesn't make them brave though. Taksin would need their support, both to be elected in the first place (with his agenda), and to keep him there. He would need to reward these people to keep them onside. He would also have to move trusted people into roles that would keep him safe from coups. He would be crazy not to.

Whatever his agenda, he can not fight corruption with-in without support from with-in. Look at Thai history and see how true this has been in the past.

[beleby]

I can honestly say that I would rather have Mr Thaskin running the UK over any of the 'big three' party leaders back home.

Take the war on drugs, it took a very significant step towards reducing the drugs problem in Thailand, and eliminated several major traffickers. If Mr Blair tried to do something like that back home, as soon as he arrested the first non white, non hetrosexual, non British citizen half of the population would be up in arms screaming "violation of human rights" and the whole thing would be abandoned. The drugs would pour on in.

I know lots of people died in the war on drugs, but hopefully they were not innocent people. I am a peaceful person who hates loss of life, but I would rather have evil crooks like that executed instead of being left to continue dealing for fear of their "human rights". What about the rights of the people who suffer from their trade?

Thailand still has a long way to go to reach true democracy, but bear in mind that democracy and human rights can also go too far. I say roll on for the war on corruption.

[parryhandy]

human rights can go to far but surely in a democratic country everybody should have the right to defend themseleves and a way of doing so.none of these killings were investigated and do you really think when authorities(alledgedly) start killing people someones going to stand up and say " hold on that man was innocent".im afraid hopefully innocent people werent killed isnt good enough for me. even public meetings after the event showing some kind of evidence would have been something.

imagine the scenario your a hard working businessman but dont get along with the big boss businessman of your area and  the police (maybe you refuse to pay bribes etc).suddenly theres a green light to shoot drug dealers.next thing your house is raided and low and behold a massive bag of drugs is found.no trial cos youve been killed. job done no enquiry no evidence needed only this bag of drugs. .your land businesses etc now belong to the state and are sold to guess who.total fiction but just a thought.

another thing youll find that 99 percent of people invovled in the drug business are doing it for the money and not alot at that.killing them is no deterrent because for most there is no alternative.theres no dole its a case of get money somehow or die anyway. youll find theyll shift to another avenue of crime that doesnt get the kangeroo court death penalty.

what about eliminating people that sell cigarettes and alcohol while were at it.

???

[Will Lawes]

As strange as this may seem, (it does to me), I know a weathly Thai/Chinese family that are very afraid of where Taksin is leading the country. So much so that they are selling all of their land in Bkk, and considering a way to establish a business abroad. I find it confusing, but they 'seem' to know something that I most certainly don't...their reasoning, as explained to me, is that Taksin is moving towards 'socialism', bad for the rich, those who own land, as they say...

Does this sound like nonesence or whats up?  ???

[buasaard]

Taksin is moving towards 'socialism

Rich people always live in stupid fears. And this is certainly a stupid fear.

First : thais have not idea of what socialism is, most of them think socialists kill monks, or something like Pol Pot.

Second : Taksin is the richest man in Thailand, do they think he will give away his properties?

I wish Thailand would become a modern socialist country (something like Schroeder's Germany or Scandinavian socialism), but I hardly think Taksin thinks about it.

Maybe for that wealthy family, also Berlusconi and Aznar would be considered socialist  

[wolf5370]

Yes agree buasaard, Taksin is too rich to consider socialism - facism though, well that only a hop-skip-jump from the kind of extreame nationalism that LOS seems to be heading towards.

In reality though, I just think Taksin has a vision for Thailand that he believes is best for the country and is working towards. The apparant nepotism towards friends and family is age old and pretty much universal (old school tie) though perhaps not as blatant in ther west today. Besides, I feel this is a more likely to be a mixture of reward for the help these people gave him to be in a position to move this vision forward; a move to protect himself and his vision by 'buying their future agreement' - a buy in; and third, and perhaps most important, to protect his 'regime' from overthrow - control the police and services (army etc).

I still believe this currently. However, I am not saying this is in anyway good news. Many infamous leaders started out with a vision that was 'in the best interests' of their country, but as the saying goes "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutley"...or is it..."The streets of Moscow will run red with blood". Lets think of a few of these leaders, erm: Mussolini, Hitler, Startlin, Mao Tse-Tsung,...the list goes on. Lets hope this man can cope better with the power!

[Spellbound]

Mr T and his policies, have all the infant makings of BATH(is'um).

[ChiangMaiThai]

I will also jump in here with my disdain for Mr. T.  I do think he has some vision for this country. It looks a lot like Singapore. Great.

[Butterfly]

It's funny. It looks lilke everyone hate Toxin. Still he is very "popular"

- The military for his promotion scheme (with his cousin)

- The Royals

- The Farangs

- The students (can't go party now if younger than 20)

- The Rich (not sure why)

- The poors (being used a tool for public policies)

- The Media (we all know why)

- The Police

I am surprised he was not shot yet or found killed in his bathroom. It would be much better to see him lose the election and see the look on his face.

[Butterfly]

Singapore is a "boring" dump. This is not Asia. It looks like the US in Asia. Why do you think all Singaporians leave the country on week-ends ? because it's a stupid little country.

I go to Thailand to find something different. I would hate to see it turned into another western protectorate like Singapore or KL. Making Thailand looks like Singapore so that farang can enjoy their fast food and have their way is not an option. Sometimes I really think that Toxin real objective is to make Thailand more "modern" and "western" like while "denying" local farangs any entitlements.

[Will Lawes]

posted

[Will Lawes]

The 'fear' as posed by my (thai) friends was mainly a result of some land in chiang mai they have being 'taken over' by locals in a violent and what appears to be 'unjustified' way. Like tresspassing, and calling this area of land to be now mine. These 'locals' are not acting on their own, and are backed by some group - who knows who. They have done this to several plots of land and have caused enough rucus that it is now written up in Bangkok newspapers, and Taksin is now aware of it.

This is why these friends of mine are said to be selling their land in Bkk, (it still doesn't make sense to me), but the question they pose, that they seem afraid of, is what will happen when our beloved majesty should pass on? What's Taksin gonna do? The said Thai friends say there will be some form of 'revolution'...!...r they serious or what?

 ???