World Leaders Blame U.s. For Credit Crisis

[LaoPo]

Sarkozy Urges Credit-Crisis Summit as World Leaders Blame U.S.

By Bill Varner

Sept. 23 (Bloomberg) -- French President Nicolas Sarkozy urged a summit meeting on the U.S. financial crisis as African, Asian and Latin American presidents used United Nations speeches to blame American mismanagement for creating the economic peril.

Sarkozy, whose country currently holds the rotating presidency of the European Union, called for a meeting of leaders of the world's industrialized nations in November to deal with what he called the ``mad system'' that produced the meltdown.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said the crisis ``endangers all our work'' to ease poverty and hunger in poor nations. Even Argentina, which defaulted on $95 billion of debt in late 2001, had harsh words for the U.S. about the economic contagion spreading around the world.

``No one can talk about the `caipirinha crisis' or the `tequila crisis' or the `rice crisis' or whatever name that always denoted the crisis was coming from emerging markets,'' Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner said. ``We should perhaps call it the `jazz crisis,' where the effects emanate from the center of the biggest economy.''

The annual opening of the General Assembly began as Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke and Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson warned Congress that failure to pass a $700 billion plan to buy troubled assets from financial firms would threaten markets and the U.S. economy.

Stocks and bonds fell in Moscow and Shanghai, halting a record emerging-markets rally, as investors became concerned that the plan won't prevent a worldwide recession.

Boundless Greed

``The euphoria of speculators has spawned the anguish of entire peoples, in the wake of successive financial disasters that threaten the world's economy.'' Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said. ``We must not allow the burden of the boundless greed of a few to be shouldered by all.''

President George W. Bush, in his final UN speech as president, said the U.S. government is taking ``bold steps'' to deal with the crisis, and he assured world leaders that Congress would act quickly.

``Our economies are more closely connected than ever before,'' Bush said. ``And I know that many of you here are watching how the United States government will address the problems in our financial system. I am confident we will act in the urgent time frame required.''

Sarkozy told reporters his proposed summit should establish ``principles and new rules'' to regulate financial markets and punish those who ``jeopardize people's savings.''

Leaders should focus on excessive executive salaries that reward success without penalizing failure, he said.

World Crisis

``It is the duty of the heads of state and government of the countries most directly concerned to meet before the end of the year to examine together lessons of the most serious financial crisis the world has experienced since that of the 1930s,'' Sarkozy said.

Sarkozy, 53, took U.S. financial executives to task for creating the problem.

The turmoil has its roots in a ``deviation from market economic mechanisms,'' specifically hedge funds and ``financial establishments prepared to loan money at any cost whatsoever without any concern for creating value.'' He also said ``incredible bonuses are being paid that have no economic basis.''

Sarkozy said the summit would have a format based on the Group of Eight industrialized nations, which he said should be expanded into a forum of 14 countries, including China, India, South Africa, Mexico and Brazil.

`Terrible Tsunami'

President Gloria Arroyo of the Philippines touted her nation's economic progress before saying the financial crisis has ``moved like a terrible tsunami around the globe, wiping away'' gains made in combating high oil and rice prices.

``Just when we thought the worst had past, the light at the end of the tunnel became an oncoming train hurling forward with new shocks to the global financial system'' Arroyo said.

The economic stress, combined with fluctuating fuel prices and the food crisis, also threatens the U.S.-led fight against terrorism by fomenting discontent in developing nations, Turkish President Abdullah Gul said.

``Under such circumstances, combating terrorism, racism, xenophobia and all forms of religious discrimination and extremism takes on particular importance,'' Gul said. He appealed for the international community to do more ``to bridge, as quickly as possible, the enormous gap between the wealthiest and the least fortunate.''

--Bloomberg

LaoPo

[siamamerican]

Too much finger pointing and ignoring the realities of of the crisis. US and international investors , banks, and borrowers wrongly assumed home values would continue to rise. All parties fared exceptionally well from 1997 -2007 and many didn't grasp the fact that bubbles inevitably burst.

The world reaped the benefits of inflated home values and the day of reckoning has come. Real estate bubbles are popping in many countries and are reeking havoc on domestic economies. The difference is that when it happens in the US, the world shares in the pain, just at the world shared the rewards during the bubble.

I'm not a proponent of excessive government regulation, but this crisis has proven that capitalism has flaws. The finance industry is too leveraged and needs more stringent capital requirements. Also, more transparency is needed so investors can assess what they are purchasing.

In the end, finger pointing isn't going to help. The perfect world where investing is risk free doesn't exist. If you can't handle this reality, don't invest. The world bought into something too good to be true and wining about it isn't going to help.

[OlRedEyes]

Worldwide, bankers as well as consumers are pretty much to blame, agreed. However the US philosophy of spending themselves out of trouble reaches heights not seen anywhere else. Obviously this 'culture' isn't changing, as the latest rescue package demonstrates. Coming on top of an already ridiculous US deficit, it seems the message still hasn't gotten through, so much fun n games to follow in the years, or even decades to come.

Another day older, and deeper in debt. In a whole new dimension. Will the penny ever drop? I don't think so. The next bubble is gonna be a lot scarier.

Gotta keep running, coz everything behind you is collapsing.

[flying]

President George W. Bush, in his final UN speech as president, said the U.S. government is taking ``bold steps'' to deal with the crisis, and he assured world leaders that Congress would act quickly.

LaoPo

I dont know but when I read that last line I just felt like it was another sham.

Watch this hand while we rush you into the blank check with the other.

Why dont we just fire the whole dang batch & start over.

Could we do any worse??

Edited September 24, 2008 by flying

[OlRedEyes]

Watch this hand while we rush you into the blank check with the other.

I agree. Watching Bush and Paulsen I do get the distinct impression of a bold move under cover of the 'fog of war'. A lot of tension in both, and I don't think it is all about the financial crises. I also get the impression they are both doing something they don't believe in, and are being pressurized to do it. Time will tell.

Edited September 24, 2008 by OlRedEyes

[Wrong Turn]

Boundless Greed

``The euphoria of speculators has spawned the anguish of entire peoples, in the wake of successive financial disasters that threaten the world's economy.'' Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said. ``We must not allow the burden of the boundless greed of a few to be shouldered by all.''

President George W. Bush, in his final UN speech as president, said the U.S. government is taking ``bold steps'' to deal with the crisis, and he assured world leaders that Congress would act quickly.

``Our economies are more closely connected than ever before,'' Bush said. ``And I know that many of you here are watching how the United States government will address the problems in our financial system. I am confident we will act in the urgent time frame required.''

Sarkozy told reporters his proposed summit should establish ``principles and new rules'' to regulate financial markets and punish those who ``jeopardize people's savings.''

Leaders should focus on excessive executive salaries that reward success without penalizing failure, he said.

World Crisis

``It is the duty of the heads of state and government of the countries most directly concerned to meet before the end of the year to examine together lessons of the most serious financial crisis the world has experienced since that of the 1930s,'' Sarkozy said.

I think it's definitely fair to criticize the actions in the US, because this is a global economy. This is trickling now, and already has been affecting communities in foreign countries, and people in foreign nations.

[lannarebirth]

This whole event has been a culmination of the 100 year cycle, whose last iteration was the "Rich Man's Panic of 1907". After considerable loss of assets JP Morgan stepped in to "put a floor under the market". Big dofeerence this time however. They've chose not to go after any rich men and attack the ignorant public at forst opportunity. There's more than enough capital amongst bondholders of these institutions to put the markets back on a solid footing, but the bondholders seem to be off limits. That stinks, and I'll not be contributing a single dime towards this "bailout".

[Jingthing]

The American people and their politicians of both parties definitely deserve the blame. Now that the blame game is out of the way, what now?

[lannarebirth]

The American people and their politicians of both parties definitely deserve the blame. Now that the blame game is out of the way, what now?

What now? let the risk takers take the hit and let the chips fall where they may.

I remember Alan Greenspan trying to force people like my 75 year old father into this market with 1% CD rates. I wouldn't let him and subsidized him instead. We chose not to take those risks, and choose not to cover them now.

Edited September 24, 2008 by lannarebirth

[Jingthing]

The American people and their politicians of both parties definitely deserve the blame. Now that the blame game is out of the way, what now?

What now? let the risk takers take the hit and let the chips fall where they may.

I remember Alan Greenspan trying to force people like my 75 year old father into this market with 1% CD rates. I wouldn't let him and subsidized him instead. We chose not to take those risks, and choose not to cover them now.

Easy for you to say. The American people tolerated a system with so little regulation and oversight that this disaster was allowed to happen. Democracy is supposed to be PARTICIPATORY and Americans have been asleep at the wheel. No, we all pay, or we all go down. It is not only the heavily invested and fat cats that will suffer if this all melts down.

[LaoPo]

The American people and their politicians of both parties definitely deserve the blame. Now that the blame game is out of the way, what now?

Thanks to Lannarebirth for his link, here's a transcript of an important interview:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09192008...ipt1.html?print -in print-

and:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09192008/watch.html -video + voices + text-

LaoPo

[lannarebirth]

The American people and their politicians of both parties definitely deserve the blame. Now that the blame game is out of the way, what now?

What now? let the risk takers take the hit and let the chips fall where they may.

I remember Alan Greenspan trying to force people like my 75 year old father into this market with 1% CD rates. I wouldn't let him and subsidized him instead. We chose not to take those risks, and choose not to cover them now.

Easy for you to say. The American people tolerated a system with so little regulation and oversight that this disaster was allowed to happen. Democracy is supposed to be PARTICIPATORY and Americans have been asleep at the wheel. No, we all pay, or we all go down. It is not only the heavily invested and fat cats that will suffer if this all melts down.

You're not paying attention. The "fat cats" don't seem to be going down at all. That makes everyone else a schmuck.

Edited September 24, 2008 by lannarebirth

[pkrv]

The American people and their politicians of both parties definitely deserve the blame. Now that the blame game is out of the way, what now?

What now? let the risk takers take the hit and let the chips fall where they may.

I remember Alan Greenspan trying to force people like my 75 year old father into this market with 1% CD rates. I wouldn't let him and subsidized him instead. We chose not to take those risks, and choose not to cover them now.

Easy for you to say. The American people tolerated a system with so little regulation and oversight that this disaster was allowed to happen. Democracy is supposed to be PARTICIPATORY and Americans have been asleep at the wheel. No, we all pay, or we all go down. It is not only the heavily invested and fat cats that will suffer if this all melts down.

You're not paying attention. The "fat cats" don't seem to be going down at all. That makes everyone else a schmuck.

You know what the word is an ever changing place - correct the fat cats do not go down, at all. That is part of the point of the concept of 'it provides stability'. Oddly though people now vote, in the only way now left open, with their feet. I think this is good news for Thailand.

For me now investment is in a roof over my head and to live in style - that is it. My advice is to do the same you just live once (though I do wish to pass on something of value to the next generation in my family without it being stolen under inheritance tax rules that the elite in the UK are not subject to).

Edited September 24, 2008 by pkrv

[Naam]

For me now investment is in a roof over my head and to live in style - that is it. My advice is to do the same you just live once (though I do wish to pass on something of value to the next generation in my family without it being stolen under inheritance tax rules that the elite in the UK are not subject to).

i fully agree with you Pkrv. however one needs money to keep the chimney smoking (literal translation of old german saying) and money is necessary in Thailand too. not to keep the chimney smoking but to run the airconditioning. the roof over the head costs but does not generate money.

and before another smartàss -besides me - comes up with the obligatory smartàss statement, i present it for the newbies:

"never invest in Thailand more than you can afford to walk away!"

[britmaveric]

Well unfortunately investment banks across the world share the blame too... quite a few will go under or need bailout. You invest in dodgey bundled loans and this is what you get.

[LaoPo]

The fundamentals for the subprime crisis were put in place, back on October 15 - 2002 by:

The George W. Bush Administration:

President Hosts Conference on Minority Homeownership

George Washington University

Washington, D.C.

excerpts:

"I'm also going to encourage the lending industry to develop a mortgage market so that this script, these vouchers, can regularly be used as a source of payment to provide more capital to lenders, who can then help more families move from rental housing into houses of their own.

Twenty-two public and private partners have signed up to help meet our national goal. Partners in the mortgage finance industry are encouraging homeownership by purchasing more loans made by banks to African Americans, Hispanics and other minorities.

Freddie Mae -- Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac -- I see the heads who are here; I want to thank you all for coming -- (laughter) -- have committed to provide more money for lenders. They've committed to help meet the shortage of capital available for minority home buyers.

Fannie Mae recently announced a $50 million program to develop 600 homes for the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma. Franklin, I appreciate that commitment. They also announced $12.7 million investment in a condominium project in Harlem. It's the beginnings of a series of initiatives to help meet the goal of 5.5 million families. Franklin told me at the meeting where we kicked this office, he said, I promise you we will help, and he has, like many others in this room have done.

Freddie Mac recently began 25 initiatives around the country to dismantle barriers and create greater opportunities for homeownership. One of the programs is designed to help deserving families who have bad credit histories to qualify for homeownership loans.

So I want to thank you all for coming. I want to thank you for your determination to help close the minority homeownership gap. It's an incredibly important initiative for this country. See, America is a good and generous country. It's a great place. Part of it was to make sure that the dream, the American Dream, the ability to come from anywhere in our society and say, I own this home, is a reality -- can be achievable for anybody, regardless of their status, regardless of their -- of whether or not they -- whether or not they think the dream is meant for them.

I mean, we can put light where there's darkness, and hope where there's despondency in this country. And part of it is working together as a nation to encourage folks to own their own home.

Again, I want to tell you, this is an initiative -- as Mel will tell you, it's an initiative that we take very seriously. We're going to stay on it until we're -- until we achieve the goal. And as we all achieve the goal, we can look back and say, America is a better place for our hard work, our efforts and our desires for our fellow Americans to realize the greatness of our country."

6 years later we know what happened and that Mr. Bush didn't realize/know at that particular time, $ 700 Billion (probably more) was needed in 2008 to repair the enormous damage his administration created....

From:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...0021015-7.html# -including video (real) and audio -

&

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...0/20021015.html

LaoPo

[Jingthing]

Yes, but the opposition party and the millions of people who got dodgy loans they knew and the lenders knew they weren't qualified for, didn't oppose the madness. I have a good friend who bought three houses on credit of course, one for over 300K USD and he hadn't had any income for years (he was living and is still living on the profits from the sales of the other houses he bought before). So I contend there is more than enough blame to go around. Everyone was betting on an endless bubble and you don't have to be a great historian to know how that always ends up.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Jingthing

[LaoPo]

Yes, but the opposition party and the millions of people who got dodgy loans they knew and the lenders knew they weren't qualified for, didn't oppose the madness. So I contend there is more than enough blame to go around. Everyone was betting on an endless bubble and you don't have to be a great historian to know how that always ends up.

True; but the GWB administration opened the door.....letting them in....the sharks, lenders, banks, insurers, real estate developers...the Fannie Mae's, Freddie Mac's, Lehman's, AIG's.....................I can go on.

And, the one who opens the door is responsible if the storm and <deleted> hits the fan...

LaoPo

[Jingthing]

Yes, but the opposition party and the millions of people who got dodgy loans they knew and the lenders knew they weren't qualified for, didn't oppose the madness. So I contend there is more than enough blame to go around. Everyone was betting on an endless bubble and you don't have to be a great historian to know how that always ends up.

True; but the GWB administration opened the door.....letting them in....the sharks, lenders, banks, insurers, real estate developers...the Fannie Mae's, Freddie Mac's, Lehman's, AIG's.....................I can go on.

And, the one who opens the door is responsible if the storm and <deleted> hits the fan...

LaoPo

Yes, I am as anti-Bush as anyone, but I would like to see the American people FINALLY grow up to the reality and seriousness of their situation. I don't think either party is yet prepared to tell them the truth, and anyone who did wouldn't ever get elected. Now would be a good time for someone like Michael Bloomberg, too bad he isn't running. Lets face it, if the US doesn't get its act together right quick, we are looking at a massive Argentina, and the world economy is still too linked to the USA for even non-Americans to feel all that cheerful about that.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Jingthing

[Lopburi99]

...The American people tolerated a system with so little regulation and oversight that this disaster was allowed to happen. Democracy is supposed to be PARTICIPATORY and Americans have been asleep at the wheel. No, we all pay, or we all go down. It is not only the heavily invested and fat cats that will suffer if this all melts down.

Keep in mind, the USA is only 232 years old. I mere kid, a teenager, and behaving exactly like one - the "know it all" attitude, limitless greed, balls out misuse of capitalism, arrogance beyond belief, irresponsibility and an incredible lack of foresight and wisdom. Definitely true to the "Gone Wild" mold.

Unfortunately the entire world is suffering now from the "growing pains."

Edited September 24, 2008 by Lopburi99

[LaoPo]

Buffett Calls Crisis an `Economic Pearl Harbor,' Backs Paulson

By Linda Shen and Andrew Frye

Sept. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Billionaire investor Warren Buffett, calling the market turmoil ``an economic Pearl Harbor,'' said Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson's $700 billion proposal to prop up the U.S. financial system is ``absolutely necessary.''

``The market could not have taken another week'' like last week, Buffett told CNBC today, a day after saying his Berkshire Hathaway Inc. will buy a $5 billion stake in Goldman Sachs Group Inc. ``I think it was the last thing Hank Paulson wanted to do, but there's no Plan B for this.''

Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke are pushing Congress to quickly approve the plan to remove illiquid assets from the banking system. Lawmakers have balked at rubber- stamping the proposal, with Democrats demanding it include support for homeowners and limits on executive pay and Republicans questioning the plan's reach and size.

``I am betting on the Congress doing the right thing for the American public and passing this bill,'' Buffett said. The economy is ``everybody's problem,'' he said, likening it to ``a bathtub -- you can't have cold water in the front and hot water in the back.''

Berkshire is buying the stake in Goldman, Paulson's former firm, after three of the investment bank's biggest competitors went bankrupt or were forced into emergency sales. He has already agreed to spend at least $25 billion this year to acquire companies, finance buyouts and purchase securities for Omaha, Nebraska-based Berkshire.

``I certainly have a vote of confidence in Goldman and vote of confidence in Congress,'' said Buffett, who is investing in the firm after it lost 40 percent of its market value in the past year.

Buffett, who last year complained that he couldn't find companies big enough to buy, said he's not a fan of cash.

``It's nice to have a lot of money, but you know, you don't want to keep it around forever,'' Buffett said. ``I prefer buying things. Otherwise, it's a little like saving sex for your old age.''

-Bloomberg

Note: The words by Buffett certainly put some positivity in the markets.

LaoPo

[Lopburi99]

Buffett Calls Crisis an `Economic Pearl Harbor,' Backs Paulson

By Linda Shen and Andrew Frye

Sept. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Billionaire investor Warren Buffett, calling the market turmoil ``an economic Pearl Harbor,'' said Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson's $700 billion proposal to prop up the U.S. financial system is ``absolutely necessary.''

``The market could not have taken another week'' like last week, Buffett told CNBC today, a day after saying his Berkshire Hathaway Inc. will buy a $5 billion stake in Goldman Sachs Group Inc. ``I think it was the last thing Hank Paulson wanted to do, but there's no Plan B for this.''

Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke are pushing Congress to quickly approve the plan to remove illiquid assets from the banking system. Lawmakers have balked at rubber- stamping the proposal, with Democrats demanding it include support for homeowners and limits on executive pay and Republicans questioning the plan's reach and size.

``I am betting on the Congress doing the right thing for the American public and passing this bill,'' Buffett said. The economy is ``everybody's problem,'' he said, likening it to ``a bathtub -- you can't have cold water in the front and hot water in the back.''

Berkshire is buying the stake in Goldman, Paulson's former firm, after three of the investment bank's biggest competitors went bankrupt or were forced into emergency sales. He has already agreed to spend at least $25 billion this year to acquire companies, finance buyouts and purchase securities for Omaha, Nebraska-based Berkshire.

``I certainly have a vote of confidence in Goldman and vote of confidence in Congress,'' said Buffett, who is investing in the firm after it lost 40 percent of its market value in the past year.

Buffett, who last year complained that he couldn't find companies big enough to buy, said he's not a fan of cash.

``It's nice to have a lot of money, but you know, you don't want to keep it around forever,'' Buffett said. ``I prefer buying things. Otherwise, it's a little like saving sex for your old age.''

-Bloomberg

Note: The words by Buffett certainly put some positivity in the markets.

LaoPo

The best news I've heard in days. When Buffett speaks, everybody listens.

[britmaveric]

When he speaks he has his own motivations.

[Lopburi99]

When he speaks he has his own motivations.

Agreed. Nonetheless, his support will be beneficial to us all. Consider the alternative.

Edited September 24, 2008 by Lopburi99

[LaoPo]

And, the financial lessons the US were teaching foreign Nations are now ironic and maybe Paulson should ask the Chinese for advise now HOW to run state-owned companies...

"Sept. 24 (Bloomberg) -- Eighteen months ago, U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson told an audience at the Shanghai Futures Exchange that China risked trillions of dollars in lost economic potential unless it freed up its capital markets.

``An open, competitive, and liberalized financial market can effectively allocate scarce resources in a manner that promotes stability and prosperity far better than governmental intervention,'' Paulson said."

"The recent moves by Paulson, the former chief executive officer of Goldman Sachs Group Inc., contradict what the U.S. told Asian governments over the past decade. Thailand, South Korea and Indonesia were urged to let unviable banks fail during the 1997-98 Asian financial crisis."

How ironic, isn't it ?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...id=aCl7bFUJzWRk

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

When he speaks he has his own motivations.

Yes...but also: when he speaks, he's WARNING too !

I posted this on August 21 but nobody reacted; it's about a movie/documentary called I.O.U.S.A.

"Subject: "I.O.U.S.A.:" Can you handle the truth? "

With Warren Buffett, Pete Peterson & Dave Walker - an exclusive one-night event on Aug. 21.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Where-s-Us-H...06#entry2158406

ABOUT THE MOVIE

Wake up, America! We're on the brink of a financial meltdown.....

http://www.iousathemovie.com/takeaction/

http://www.iousathemovie.com/press/meeting/

LaoPo

[flying]

Democracy is supposed to be PARTICIPATORY and Americans have been asleep at the wheel. No, we all pay, or we all go down. It is not only the heavily invested and fat cats that will suffer if this all melts down.

I agree it is supposed to be but it is not.

If it was then there would be another true Democratic choice on the voting ballots.

That would be None Of The Above but they always leave that out.

If enough choose none of the above then none of those guys should be in office.

Instead usually we get to vote between bad & worse.

But................

PS: Funny they just right now mentioned on CNBC...........Why cant we do this California style & have a reforandum. Then have the folks who will pay for it vote on it? The answer was.....................We dont have time it takes at least 4 months to set up a vote for anything!!!!!!! DOH Classic so classic

Hurry now sign the papers old man

Edited September 24, 2008 by flying

[dave_boo]

Hmm, I'm American, so I think that entitles me to discuss this with more conviction than others in what appears to be a mostly Euro poster dominated thread.

"blame American mismanagement for creating the economic peril." and ``We must not allow the burden of the boundless greed of a few to be shouldered by all.'' completely ignores the fact it wouldn't have grown so large if others weren't also willing to enjoy the profit when things were situated to earn them money.

"the crisis ``endangers all our work'' to ease poverty and hunger in poor nations" So either step up to the plate with more aid from your own pockets or help America get back on its feet. If the rest of the world is so concerned about the US being financially sound, stop coming around with open hands. Enough is given per year to afford the proprosed bail-out of AIG if all foreign aid was suspended for a period of 3-4 years.

However ``to bridge, as quickly as possible, the enormous gap between the wealthiest and the least fortunate.'' worries me the most. Those who have usually got there by applying themselves. Those that don't usually didn't apply themselves. So basically, the Turkish president is asking for the successful to be punished. And where do we draw the line? Are we to be communist where everyone is equal (which is a load of crap; nobody on this forum is Mr. Buffet's equal for instance)? What will this do in regards to stifling innovation and the desire to produce something better?

[OlRedEyes]

Hmm, I'm American, so I think that entitles me to discuss this with more conviction than others in what appears to be a mostly Euro poster dominated thread.

Why, does being American give you a special insight or knowledge? Tis a small world nowadays you know. Information moves fast. A lot of average people around the world knows just as much and sometimes more about American issues than a lot of Americans do.

"blame American mismanagement for creating the economic peril." and ``We must not allow the burden of the boundless greed of a few to be shouldered by all.'' completely ignores the fact it wouldn't have grown so large if others weren't also willing to enjoy the profit when things were situated to earn them money.

The two statements are perfectly true, and doesn't ignore anything. That said, your statement is also true.

"the crisis ``endangers all our work'' to ease poverty and hunger in poor nations" So either step up to the plate with more aid from your own pockets or help America get back on its feet. If the rest of the world is so concerned about the US being financially sound, stop coming around with open hands. Enough is given per year to afford the proprosed bail-out of AIG if all foreign aid was suspended for a period of 3-4 years.

A common (arrogant?) statement. It *can* be argued that America tends to give aid with one hand and sows destruction with the other. A very emotive and arguable point. Many smaller nations give more aid per capita than the US as well. I'd say it's a very moot point whether it is wise to pursue such a line of reasoning.

However ``to bridge, as quickly as possible, the enormous gap between the wealthiest and the least fortunate.'' worries me the most. Those who have usually got there by applying themselves. Those that don't usually didn't apply themselves. So basically, the Turkish president is asking for the successful to be punished.

'Usually got there by applying themselves' I would change to 'sometimes got there by...'

Opportunity is a larger factor in financial success than you seem to appreciate. Try 'getting there' from a slum in Asia or Africa by applying yourself. With virtually zero effective education and no opportunity to get to the regulated and protected trough. Is it surprising that crime becomes the only option to 'apply themselves'?

And where do we draw the line? Are we to be communist where everyone is equal (which is a load of crap; nobody on this forum is Mr. Buffet's equal for instance)? What will this do in regards to stifling innovation and the desire to produce something better?

Equality has nothing to do with education, knowledge or financial status. These things are primarily a result of being born lucky and opportunity. Give all in the world the same opportunity then maybe you could raise these issues in regards to equality.

You seem to view the world from a naive and privileged position and as a result have the typical attitude that I have achieved because I'm so great and worked so hard. Sit down for a moment and ponder where you would have been with the same intelligence (not education - that's part of the luck factor) and hard work if you were born to say a laborer in some desperate hole.

Never give yourself too much credit. The higher you put yourself, the further the fall.

I would never have replied to this post if it didn't have the arrogance in it. In general I have nothing against Americans, I actually like them and think they've done a lot of good in the world. But they also sometimes tend to screw up spectacularly when they forget that they are not superior beings. Humility is a strength, not a weakness.

[dave_boo]

Hmm, I'm American, so I think that entitles me to discuss this with more conviction than others in what appears to be a mostly Euro poster dominated thread.

Why, does being American give you a special insight or knowledge? Tis a small world nowadays you know. Information moves fast. A lot of average people around the world knows just as much and sometimes more about American issues than a lot of Americans do.

Being American does not especially give me special insight. However, listening to others posting along the lines of "Americans need to stay out of other's business" and the fact that it is directly affecting my nation provides me the opportunity to interject some other perspective other than the apparent delight that some seem to be taking in this unfortunate event.

"blame American mismanagement for creating the economic peril." and ``We must not allow the burden of the boundless greed of a few to be shouldered by all.'' completely ignores the fact it wouldn't have grown so large if others weren't also willing to enjoy the profit when things were situated to earn them money.

The two statements are perfectly true, and doesn't ignore anything. That said, your statement is also true.

"the crisis ``endangers all our work'' to ease poverty and hunger in poor nations" So either step up to the plate with more aid from your own pockets or help America get back on its feet. If the rest of the world is so concerned about the US being financially sound, stop coming around with open hands. Enough is given per year to afford the proprosed bail-out of AIG if all foreign aid was suspended for a period of 3-4 years.

A common (arrogant?) statement. It *can* be argued that America tends to give aid with one hand and sows destruction with the other. A very emotive and arguable point. Many smaller nations give more aid per capita than the US as well. I'd say it's a very moot point whether it is wise to pursue such a line of reasoning.

I was simply responding to emotion with emotion. And yes, smaller nations provide more per capita then the US. However, that's true of the top dozen or so. Few of those nations provide more than a couple percentage points of their GDP towards foreign aide. And even the EU is quite content with attaching strings to their aide. It however, in my opinion is a valid point. For example, if you look at private life, how can you take care of immediate family if your own affairs aren't in order?

However ``to bridge, as quickly as possible, the enormous gap between the wealthiest and the least fortunate.'' worries me the most. Those who have usually got there by applying themselves. Those that don't usually didn't apply themselves. So basically, the Turkish president is asking for the successful to be punished.

'Usually got there by applying themselves' I would change to 'sometimes got there by...'

Opportunity is a larger factor in financial success than you seem to appreciate. Try 'getting there' from a slum in Asia or Africa by applying yourself. With virtually zero effective education and no opportunity to get to the regulated and protected trough. Is it surprising that crime becomes the only option to 'apply themselves'?

I refuse (perhaps erronously!), that people are consigned to a fate. I.E., where there's a will there's a way. Perhaps it's the way (if you have to read brainwashing) I was raised. I grew up with nothing in the middle of nowhere. I decided that wasn't the life I wanted and so I'm not stuck living out of some caravan eating noodles. Why would anyone who seriously wants a better life not be able to do the same?

And where do we draw the line? Are we to be communist where everyone is equal (which is a load of crap; nobody on this forum is Mr. Buffet's equal for instance)? What will this do in regards to stifling innovation and the desire to produce something better?

Equality has nothing to do with education, knowledge or financial status. These things are primarily a result of being born lucky and opportunity. Give all in the world the same opportunity then maybe you could raise these issues in regards to equality.

Why wouldn't the whole world have the same opportunity? I don't understand why those who have, wether through luck of birth or hard work have to support those who refuse to have. Even in the areas that you listed above, there are those who took the initative and applied their intelligence to achieve at least a modicum of success. Notice I stressed at least a modicum. I don't expect everyone to be super succesfull, as I alluded to (and noticed was let out of the quotes) in my original post.

You seem to view the world from a naive and privileged position and as a result have the typical attitude that I have achieved because I'm so great and worked so hard. Sit down for a moment and ponder where you would have been with the same intelligence (not education - that's part of the luck factor) and hard work if you were born to say a laborer in some desperate hole.

I am where I am because I worked hard. I was born to a lower middleclass family and raised by my grandparents (who grew up during the Great Depression) who had only the money they had invested and the small income from a 50 acre farm. I've had to live out of my 15 year old car while trying to make it by myself simply because I understood that nobody was going to do it for me. Not by any stretch of the imagination privileged.

Never give yourself too much credit. The higher you put yourself, the further the fall.

I try and not attach too much importance to money. I have enough to live very comfortably and some more in case there is a major problem to tide me over. I am usually humble, but it seems that every chance a non-American, who is usually the loudest in stating that Americans should mind their own business, takes every chance they get to slag the US and tell them what to do. My post was written in haste, and there are parts that I'm going to have to repent in leisure for their lack of decorum, but overall it is very indicative of how I feel.

I would never have replied to this post if it didn't have the arrogance in it. In general I have nothing against Americans, I actually like them and think they've done a lot of good in the world. But they also sometimes tend to screw up spectacularly when they forget that they are not superior beings. Humility is a strength, not a weakness.

Yes the US screws up. Everybody understands that. And like an Indian on the plane next to me said once, "When America sneezes the world catches a cold". I can gaurantee you that the average American is tired of being the world's police man, having to supply cash for every disaster, etc. Were the rest of the world to say that they no longer needed to depend on the US so much, it would make the American citizen extremely happy. I don't see that happening however.

To be honest, I don't think that the US should bail out those companies, if you couldn't tell from my previous lines . Even if that means a major financial meltdown. I don't really see how it can help the average tax payer; even with regulations it will be several years until all this cancer is rooted out. And are we going to be expected to pay out every year to keep our economy teetering along? However, a dramatic lesson in financial sense would do the country a world of good.