Asia's bin laden captured in thailand

[ColPyat]

Hand him and other accused over to The Hague.

So that he can rot in jail till he dies waiting for international justice to crawl along? (remember Milosovic?)

If the courts in The Hague weren't so mired down in bureaucracy the US and other might be a bit more willing to take part.

We can't have all - a water tight conviction and an impromptu conviction at the same time.

A bit more bureaucracy might have saved us all from the incredible mess in Iraq, where experienced civil servants and strategists were disregarded in favor of mob rule.

[cdnvic]

Hand him and other accused over to The Hague.

So that he can rot in jail till he dies waiting for international justice to crawl along? (remember Milosovic?)

If the courts in The Hague weren't so mired down in bureaucracy the US and other might be a bit more willing to take part.

We can't have all - a water tight conviction and an impromptu conviction at the same time.

A bit more bureaucracy might have saved us all from the incredible mess in Iraq, where experienced civil servants and strategists were disregarded in favor of mob rule.

Has The Hague ever gotten around to having a water tight conviction?

[Ulysses G.]

What kind of a war is this?

There is no opposing army, other than the one we declared to be our opponents, but then turned out not to be so. Even the CIA has advised against going into these wars, but political agenda has over ridden expertise.

There are only very murky alliances and conflicts between all sides, where the largest supporters of Islamic terrorism are the most important regional partners of the countries that fight terrorism. And even the terrorist organizations themselves have been not too long ago financed, supported, even partly invented by the country and its partners that now appear to fight against them.

Economical interests, ideological and religious views seem to overlap in this "war" more than at any other time, on all sides of this conflict. Even to the point that the families of some of the main proponents - Bin Laden and Bush - have been (still are?) in close personal business relationship with each other.

What kind of a war is this?

A very complicated one, for all the reasons that you have mentioned, but if we ignore terrorism, do you really think that it is just going to go away? Our enemies will consider that a victory and plan even more attacks on the vulnerable and innocent.

Sure, we are making all kinds of mistakes, but most wars are not a forgone conclusion. We have to figure out how to stop terrorism - or at least limit it - using the process of elimination. We have to be tough and we have to hang in there.

Bush may be a dildo, but he said it from the beginning: This isn't going to be easy or quick, but giving up is not really an option.

[ColPyat]

Has The Hague ever gotten around to having a water tight conviction?

Several ones, and if Milosevic would not have died, they would have come around to him as well.

[cdnvic]

Has The Hague ever gotten around to having a water tight conviction?

Several ones, and if Milosevic would not have died, they would have come around to him as well.

And here I was with this silly idea that people had the right to a speedy trial. Had someone in the same place as Milosovic been innocent, he would have been really screwed over sitting in jail while The Hague's justice system crawled along, while the last years of his life slipped away.

If you believe that a person is innocent until proved guilty you must also demand that they face trial as soon as possible to limit their unjust incarceration.

[ColPyat]

A very complicated one, for all the reasons that you have mentioned, but if we ignore terrorism, do you really think that it is just going to go away? Our enemies will consider that a victory and plan even more attacks on the vulnerable and innocent.

Sure, we are making all kinds of mistakes, but most wars are not a forgone conclusion. We have to figure out how to stop terrorism - or at least limit it - using the process of elimination. We have to be tough and we have to hang in there.

Bush may be a dildo, but he said it from the beginning: This isn't going to be easy or quick, but giving up is not really an option.

Nobody in his right mind would advocate that, or to simply ignore terrorism.

Nevertheless, i believe far to much undue importance was given to these organizations after 9/11. Whatever they do, they are not a thread to western civilization by staging such horrible attacks. They are a thread to western civilization by what we turn into by fighting them the way we do now.

How would you fight them best?

Well, first, take their support away. But that would mean not having invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, resulting in countless civilian deaths, and more international support those organizations ever had before.

Secondly, you take a very careful look on what helped them along - a lobby system, involvement of business in politics in our countries - the things that have undermined our own democracies, to the extend that these strange unholy alliances came into existence in the first place.

And the realization that you cannot fight an enemy that has no army with a conventional army. That should be a no brainer...

[ColPyat]

Has The Hague ever gotten around to having a water tight conviction?

Several ones, and if Milosevic would not have died, they would have come around to him as well.

And here I was with this silly idea that people had the right to a speedy trial. Had someone in the same place as Milosovic been innocent, he would have been really screwed over sitting in jail while The Hague's justice system crawled along, while the last years of his life slipped away.

If you believe that a person is innocent until proved guilty you must also demand that they face trial as soon as possible to limit their unjust incarceration.

Now you are nit-picking, and you ignore the fact that Hambali and the many other accused have been waiting in jail for their trial already since up to 6 years. Has any of them yet had their trial?

That is not exactly what would be a "speedy trial".

Edit:

You really should read "Enemy Combatant" by Moazzam Begg - fascinating reading.

Edited May 16, 2007 by ColPyat

[Ulysses G.]

And the realization that you cannot fight an enemy that has no army with a conventional army. That should be a no brainer...

Agreed, but that gets into doing a whole lot of secret and "illegal" things that people such as yourself will protest against.

As far as I'm concerned, let the SAS handle the whole thing in their own special way!

Edited May 16, 2007 by Ulysses G.

[cdnvic]

Has The Hague ever gotten around to having a water tight conviction?

Several ones, and if Milosevic would not have died, they would have come around to him as well.

And here I was with this silly idea that people had the right to a speedy trial. Had someone in the same place as Milosovic been innocent, he would have been really screwed over sitting in jail while The Hague's justice system crawled along, while the last years of his life slipped away.

If you believe that a person is innocent until proved guilty you must also demand that they face trial as soon as possible to limit their unjust incarceration.

Now you are nit-picking, and you ignore the fact that Hambali and the many other accused have been waiting in jail for their trial already since up to 6 years. Has any of them yet had their trial?

That is not exactly what would be a "speedy trial".

Regardless of how inconvenient it is to your argument, the right to a speedy trial is one of the most important safeguards a justice system can have as it makes it impossible to just jail someone for 25yrs "awaiting trial". I think these men should face trial immediately, not be handed over to The Hague to wait another six years while eurocrats shuffle papers around.

They've waited long enough. Let then face their accusers now.

[PhilHarries]

Amazing, this topic was posted four years ago and received 6 replies in three days minly worries bout going to Bangkok.

The update posted today has so far received 33 replies, probably more as I type, in a little over four hours mostly about who should or should not administer justice.

What does this say about the developement of ThaiVisa over the last four years?

[uptou]

i dont see how you can win a war,either overseas,or on you own turf,in which your enemy consists of fanatics who are prepared to strap bombs to themselves & run into buildings.

returning hate for hate,seems to just escalate the problem,& not putting people on trial fairly,or treating them humanely just seems like hypocrisy to me.

whenever ive seen u.s soldiers abusing detained prisoners on video,i find it hard to see how they are really any different than the people they are inflicting it on.

[ColPyat]

And the realization that you cannot fight an enemy that has no army with a conventional army. That should be a no brainer...

Agreed, but that gets into doing a whole lot of secret and "illegal" things that people such as yourself will protest against.

It does, and it makes me very uncomfortable.

I am realist enough though, that with proper internal checks and balances, these secret and illegal things might be the smaller evil than the mess we have now (as illegal, if not more so, and not secretive about it, and far more innocent victims) and in some cases are necessary.

Well, as long as they stay secret. If i don't know about it i can't protest about it.

Look at Hambali. I have no doubt that he is guilty. What we have now is a complete frick-up - we want him to stand trial, but a trial with such illegal actions as having him on trial in a country where he has not committed any crime is a perversion of justice.

Just because a populist government with a desperate need to show that they don't only screw up they need to brag about their non-existent achievements. It would have been much better to make him disappear silently. Nobody would have missed him.

But that only works when you still have the moral high ground, and are not led by a mob with a strange set of fundamentalist religious believes paired with very murky and outright corrupt business interests.

Checks and balances are not existing in US foreign policy anymore, only agenda is.

Edited May 16, 2007 by ColPyat

[cdnvic]

whenever ive seen u.s soldiers abusing detained prisoners on video,i find it hard to see how they are really any different than the people they are inflicting it on.

You've obviously never met the average US soldier. Professional, conscientious, compassionate, and brave. Regardless of what you think of the decisions that their leaders have made, comparing them to suicide bombers bording buses just goes to show your understanding of the situation is quite shallow and superficial.

[Ulysses G.]

whenever ive seen u.s soldiers abusing detained prisoners on video,i find it hard to see how they are really any different than the people they are inflicting it on.

These soldiers are criminals who are ignoring orders.

Their prisoners are usually killers of innocent people who are FOLLOWING orders.

[Prakanong]

Has The Hague ever gotten around to having a water tight conviction?

Several ones, and if Milosevic would not have died, they would have come around to him as well.

And here I was with this silly idea that people had the right to a speedy trial. Had someone in the same place as Milosovic been innocent, he would have been really screwed over sitting in jail while The Hague's justice system crawled along, while the last years of his life slipped away.

If you believe that a person is innocent until proved guilty you must also demand that they face trial as soon as possible to limit their unjust incarceration.

Now you are nit-picking, and you ignore the fact that Hambali and the many other accused have been waiting in jail for their trial already since up to 6 years. Has any of them yet had their trial?

That is not exactly what would be a "speedy trial".

Regardless of how inconvenient it is to your argument, the right to a speedy trial is one of the most important safeguards a justice system can have as it makes it impossible to just jail someone for 25yrs "awaiting trial". I think these men should face trial immediately, not be handed over to The Hague to wait another six years while eurocrats shuffle papers around.

They've waited long enough. Let then face their accusers now.

The Hague is the International Court not the European one - that is different so its not just "Eurocrats" as you put it ;-)

The Hague does not have jurisdiction over this dfoes it anyway - he is not accused of war crimes or crimes against humanity (yet)

Waiting at the Hague or waiting in Cuba - I bet its another good few years before he see's a courtroom - if ever.

[ColPyat]

Regardless of how inconvenient it is to your argument, the right to a speedy trial is one of the most important safeguards a justice system can have as it makes it impossible to just jail someone for 25yrs "awaiting trial". I think these men should face trial immediately, not be handed over to The Hague to wait another six years while eurocrats shuffle papers around.

They've waited long enough. Let then face their accusers now.

Just read the book i recommended - "enemy combatant" by Moazzam Begg. That gives you an insight into US "justice" regarding the detainees, from the view of a detainee that was released as innocent.

[ColPyat]

whenever ive seen u.s soldiers abusing detained prisoners on video,i find it hard to see how they are really any different than the people they are inflicting it on.

These soldiers are criminals who are ignoring orders.

Their prisoners are usually killers of innocent people who are FOLLOWING orders.

Read "enemy combatant" by Moazzam Begg...

[ColPyat]

whenever ive seen u.s soldiers abusing detained prisoners on video,i find it hard to see how they are really any different than the people they are inflicting it on.

You've obviously never met the average US soldier. Professional, conscientious, compassionate, and brave. Regardless of what you think of the decisions that their leaders have made, comparing them to suicide bombers bording buses just goes to show your understanding of the situation is quite shallow and superficial.

Well, i have met many non-US professional soldiers who were attached to US combat platoons, and one thing they have had in common was that they were rather disgusted by US rules of engagement in Iraq and Afghanisthan (so disgusted that some left their Army careers as a consequence), such as not investigating when they have heard fire out of a village in many cases, and straight away calling in air support, and as a result many civilian dead.

But what do i know, i haven't been there.

[sukanyacondo]

You've got to keep travelling and not blindly panic like many foreign visitors to the Uk ( mainly Americans ) did when we had some bombs here . These morons who will stop at nothing including the death of their own country men, women and children and will not win long term fighting a cowardly war hiding behind school children , hospitals and anything they can because they know they will not win.

Keep visiting Thailand and ignore their bombs and mayhem thats precisley what they want you to do. I last arrived in Bangkok as one of the bombs went off at Seacon, I had literally just got into the taxi as it all went off, I didnt scurry back home and neither should tourists, the best way is to ignore their attempts at this even if a bomb goes off at Nana or not.

[Prakanong]

What was that survey Fox News was trailing along its screens the other week

Ssomething like 45& of Marines and 50% of US Soldiers would not report their comrades for war crimes in Iraq or anywhere else.

Not too professional unless you have those values yourself!

I agree with Colypats point - if you sink to the amel levels as the terrorists you are fighting you lose the high ground.

[sukanyacondo]

My wife and child will be in BK on the 4th October and I am concerned about this terror problem does anybody know the dates this summit is going on. Where would be good for them to stay. They are only there one night but that is enough.

You've got more chance of being stabbed in the Uk or hit by a bus getting to the airport than coming to Thailand. get it into perspective, will you actually be in the exact place at the exact time that anything????? might possibly happen??

[cdnvic]

My wife and child will be in BK on the 4th October and I am concerned about this terror problem does anybody know the dates this summit is going on. Where would be good for them to stay. They are only there one night but that is enough.

You've got more chance of being stabbed in the Uk or hit by a bus getting to the airport than coming to Thailand. get it into perspective, will you actually be in the exact place at the exact time that anything????? might possibly happen??

You just replied to a post made almost four years ago

[ColPyat]

You just replied to a post made almost four years ago

Yeah, i though that was rather comical as well.

I guess the poster is going through the whole thread answering on posts made ages ago before he realizes that the discussion has moved a bit.

[PeaceBlondie]

Let's agree that this terrorist who was caught in Thailand and sent to the USA, and other terrorists still in southern Thailand, do bad, immoral things. And, that they should be brought to justice by the appropriate judicial authority, in a proper matter, and punished accordingly.

But war by terrorism, and war by other means, is immoral. Martin Luther King, Jr., said it: "WAR IS IMMORAL." The very thing that proves this, is the means by which war is fought.

I think warfare is against the teachings of the Buddha and the Christ, if that matters. Should General Sonthi and his junta kill the Muslim terrorists in the South if that also kills innocent Thais? Should the next internationally wanted terrorist (Osama bin Laden himself, perhaps) be sent to be tried in the USA if he's captured in Thailand?

[Ulysses G.]

Well, i have met many non-US professional soldiers who were attached to US combat platoons, and one thing they have had in common was that they were rather disgusted by US rules of engagement in Iraq and Afghanisthan

Some reasons for the Rules of Engagement:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6542346/site/newsweek/

Rules of Engagement

Iraq: A white flag can be a ruse, a corpse can be a booby trap and a wounded enemy can be a living bomb—or simply a wounded enemy. The fog of war is thicker than ever

For the insurgents, Iraq has become a war without rules, and yet the militants also score big propaganda victories every time Americans break their own codes of warfare. In the battle for Fallujah the insurgents feigned surrender, waving white flags to approach within killing range of U.S. Marines and Iraqi government forces. They positioned their fighters in mosques, medical centers and civilian neighborhoods. They booby-trapped their fallen comrades' corpses and shot at crews trying to collect the Muslim dead. Practically every taboo has been discarded. Women, children and international relief groups have become deliberate targets. Ambulances are used to smuggle weapons. Torture of hostages has become a public spectacle, with videos passed out like press kits to TV stations, and posted on the Internet when the Arabic channels balk at showing such atrocities.

[ColPyat]

Should the next internationally wanted terrorist (Osama bin Laden himself, perhaps) be sent to be tried in the USA if he's captured in Thailand?

There are international agreements that fulfill the term "due process" that regulate extradition requests by foreign governments. Why are these now circumvented?

This imaginary terrorist can be tried in the US, as long as such agreements are observed, and not disregarded as with most of the detainees in Guantanamo and the many other far worse camps.

We have proper procedures in place, why don't we use them when we have the chance?

[uptou]

whenever ive seen u.s soldiers abusing detained prisoners on video,i find it hard to see how they are really any different than the people they are inflicting it on.

You've obviously never met the average US soldier. Professional, conscientious, compassionate, and brave. Regardless of what you think of the decisions that their leaders have made, comparing them to suicide bombers bording buses just goes to show your understanding of the situation is quite shallow and superficial.

no,havent met too many "average" u.s soldiers,what ever that means,& didnt compare suicide bombers to soldiers abusing prisoners,so spare me the flag waving.its the double standards i'm talking about.the holier than thao attitude.

[cdnvic]

no,havent met too many "average" u.s soldiers,what ever that means,& didnt compare suicide bombers to soldiers abusing prisoners,so spare me the flag waving.its the double standards i'm talking about.the holier than thao attitude.

Can you repeat that in English?

[sukanyacondo]

You just replied to a post made almost four years ago

Yeah, i though that was rather comical as well.

I guess the poster is going through the whole thread answering on posts made ages ago before he realizes that the discussion has moved a bit.

You know I havent used this forum for long but I see such a huge amount of childish stupidity, back stabbing and flaming infighting etc. The post may be years old and No i did not see it was old but the point remains relevant for all those looking to visit Thailand . Even my Mother rings me up because she reads the rubbish Uk press and says do i think its safe to go to (insert country of choice) while she blindly igonores or forgets IRA bombings or one of the many daily murders here in the UK.

It seems to be a forum where constant attacks or wanting to humiliate or make fun of people is necessary.

There is some good and bad information available here but I dont like the constant attacks and sniping. I shalll wait for the usual "go elsewhere" replies to follow or "touchy" arent we type comments.

Surely a simple " this is an old topic" comment would have sufficed?

[ColPyat]

Well, i have met many non-US professional soldiers who were attached to US combat platoons, and one thing they have had in common was that they were rather disgusted by US rules of engagement in Iraq and Afghanisthan

Some reasons for the Rules of Engagement:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6542346/site/newsweek/

Rules of Engagement

Iraq: A white flag can be a ruse, a corpse can be a booby trap and a wounded enemy can be a living bomb—or simply a wounded enemy. The fog of war is thicker than ever

For the insurgents, Iraq has become a war without rules, and yet the militants also score big propaganda victories every time Americans break their own codes of warfare. In the battle for Fallujah the insurgents feigned surrender, waving white flags to approach within killing range of U.S. Marines and Iraqi government forces. They positioned their fighters in mosques, medical centers and civilian neighborhoods. They booby-trapped their fallen comrades' corpses and shot at crews trying to collect the Muslim dead. Practically every taboo has been discarded. Women, children and international relief groups have become deliberate targets. Ambulances are used to smuggle weapons. Torture of hostages has become a public spectacle, with videos passed out like press kits to TV stations, and posted on the Internet when the Arabic channels balk at showing such atrocities.

Yes, naturally.

And to anyone apart from the US and UK government that sort of extremely dirty war resulting the invasion was no surprise. And do not forget - the main justification for the invasion - the existence of WMDs and a connection between Saddham and Al-Qaida - has been exposed as fake. And has never been believed by the majority of the governments that would have made a clear no vote in the UN security council if that matter would have been given a chance.

The matter of fact here still is that the invasion in Iraq, and the whole resulting mess, has been illegal, counter productive, and the responsible persons should be on trial next to the terrorists. As long as the majority of the US population does not demand this - it is guilty by association, and seen so by many people in the world. This is the root of present Anti-Americanism, even in countries that have traditionally been pro US.

They don't support terrorism, or are apologists for it. But they view the US government, and the population that support it as part of the problem, making it even worse.