Dude, Where's My Work Permit?

[The Gentleman Scamp]

They say it will take two weeks.

I say what if immigration pop round.

They say, "No worries, our boss is loaded, he'll pay them off, we've got Coca Cola backing us too".

I say "That's beside the point, they are supposed to be provided"

They say, "It's being processed so you're okay, it should come through in two weeks then we'll fly you to Laos to get you're visa."

I've heard this before, that you can work providing the application has been made and it's a big enough company... True or false?

I'm not overly worried about it but it's the principal isn't it.

[davethailand]

They say it will take two weeks.

I say what if immigration pop round.

They say, "No worries, our boss is loaded, he'll pay them off, we've got Coca Cola backing us too".

I say "That's beside the point, they are supposed to be provided"

They say, "It's being processed so you're okay, it should come through in two weeks then we'll fly you to Laos to get you're visa."

I've heard this before, that you can work providing the application has been made and it's a big enough company...  True or false?

I'm not overly worried about it but it's the principal isn't it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scamp i'm confused about the "we'll fly you to Laos when you get your work permit" comment.

You need a Non Imm B visa before you can even apply for a work permit, Then the WP follows the visa.

Ask them for the reciept from the labour office, its the official paper with a stamp that shows you've applied, your not supposed to work anyway but normally if you have this reciept then they will let you carry on.

When (if) you get the work permit remember to get your passport stamped with the permit details also.

[RamdomChances]

Just keep taking the money, it only for a few months, is'nt it?

[Ijustwannateach]

GS,

I don't know how serious this post is, but they're jerking your chain. You should check the "Process" thread buried in the Teacher's room for a rough idea of how to get a visa and WP sorted here. The visa comes FIRST- then the WP- then the visa gets extended. If you're still on some sort of tourist visa, they're just playing with you.

And it's 200K B to get out of the monkeyhouse for farang who've violated working laws (so I hear), so make sure they have this much in escrow for your get-out-of-jail bribe!

I'd say find another job, accept your illegal status, or put the screws on for the WP.

"Steven"

[SK1972]

I got mine within 3 weeks.....valid for 1 year, renewable and have had no problems since. My employer is not a huge corporation but they did everything legally....no "bribing" and it was all smooth sailing.........

[dr_Pat_Pong]

They say it will take two weeks.

I say what if immigration pop round.

They say, "No worries, our boss is loaded, he'll pay them off, we've got Coca Cola backing us too".

I say "That's beside the point, they are supposed to be provided"

They say, "It's being processed so you're okay, it should come through in two weeks then we'll fly you to Laos to get you're visa."

I've heard this before, that you can work providing the application has been made and it's a big enough company...  True or false?

I'm not overly worried about it but it's the principal isn't it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jeeeeeeezus Scampy. I hate to say this, but it sounds somewhat like your Time Share brothers. Without a B visa stuck or stamped into your passport, a work permit is not a possibility. And if I guess, I'd say that you don't possess that visa.

[Insight]

My passport went missing the first two weeks I moved out here. Needed to fly to Singapore to get a new Non Img B for the replacement passport - Couldn't get a work permit without it, and the stamp I got for the replacement passport at the imigration office wasn't enough.

[dugdig]

I think if they haven't paid you yet then you are not illegal. Whatever you do don't take the money!!!!

[kenkannif]

Work isn't classed on whether you're being paid or not mate!

[RamdomChances]

What's it classed on then?

[qwertyuiop]

What's it classed on then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am sure that someone will come up with the actual wording from one of the government sites but even unpaid volunter work requires a work permit.

The requirement to have a work permit has nothing to do with how much one is paid to carry out that work and if in fact payment was received.

To work requires a work permit.

The government site that discusses WP requirements provides definitions for work

[RamdomChances]

So if your mate askes you to help him paint his house, you would need a work permit?

[qwertyuiop]

What's it classed on then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am sure that someone will come up with the actual wording from one of the government sites but even unpaid volunter work requires a work permit.

The requirement to have a work permit has nothing to do with how much one is paid to carry out that work and if in fact payment was received.

To work requires a work permit.

The government site that discusses WP requirements provides definitions for work

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well here is an interesting definition from one of those govt. sites

WORK : the engagement in work by exerting energy or using knowledge for purpose of obtaining wages or other benefits.

From that I would take it that if the work was carried out for no benefit then no WP would be required.

I would be interested to hear from the likes of Sunbelt if they are aware of anyone who has won a case for not holding a WP as no benefit was received in return.

Would the thai government actually believe that foreigners would come to Thailand

to work and receive no benefit whatsoever or conversely has anybody knowledge of any volunteer actually being brought to account for non-possession of a WP

[Axel]

NOTE:

All aliens engaged in any kind of work in Thailand must hold a valid work permit, issued principally by the Department of Employment of the Ministry of Labor and Social Welfare pursuant to the Alien Employment Act B.E. 2521 (A.D. 1978).

The term "work" is defined very broadly, covering both physical and mental activities, whether or not for wages or other remuneration. Working without a valid work permit even for a day is a criminal offense.

Source: http://www.thaivisa.com/288.0.html

Btw: from my own personal experience. Being found in an office during office hours can be construed as working.

Now, I would not use this for a visitor, however, for a foreigner who applied for but was not granted, yet, the WP.

[Darknight]

SO stop thinking everyone, You're working there....

physical and mental activities, whether or not for wages or other remuneration. Working without a valid work permit even for a day is a criminal offense.

[camerata]

I would be interested to hear from the likes of Sunbelt  if they are aware of anyone who  has won a case for not holding a WP as no benefit was received in return.

Would the thai government actually believe that foreigners would come to Thailand

to work and receive no benefit whatsoever or conversely has anybody knowledge of any volunteer actually being brought to account for non-possession of a WP

Yes. There was a highly publicized case 6 or 7 years ago in which senior officers of several foreign chambers of commerce were "charged" with working without the correct work permit for their unpaid and voluntary chamber work. Of course, the foreign chambers went ballistic at this. The Ministry of Labour said it didn't matter that the work was voluntary or that the chambers were non-profit because the work DID financially benefit chamber members, if only indirectly.

The upshot was that chamber of commerce officers were told to get a second work permit or be fined for breaking the law. The Thai government came out of this episode looking really stupid.

[qwertyuiop]

So if your mate askes you to help him paint his house, you would need a work permit?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As per the Thai government definition YES if he bought you a pint or provided lunch.

[Axel]

As per the Thai government definition YES if he bought you a pint or provided lunch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pint or lunch would not matter:

whether or not for wages or other remuneration.

is the word.

Guess you are not too serious with the painting question.

But just to be on the safe side, I never pour my beer myself, could be mistaken as working.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

SO stop thinking everyone, You're working there....

physical and mental activities, whether or not for wages or other remuneration. Working without a valid work permit even for a day is a criminal offense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heheheheh I like that Dark. Thinking ... with or without reward is working

[Boon Mee]

SO stop thinking everyone, You're working there....

physical and mental activities, whether or not for wages or other remuneration. Working without a valid work permit even for a day is a criminal offense.

Heheheheh I like that Dark. Thinking ... with or without reward is working

And some have to work harder than others!

[kat]

I'm still a little unclear about the terms. Here's my question:

If you apply for a non-imm B and submit paperwork from your employer, are you illegal during the time between getting the non B and waiting to submit paperwork for your working papers (example: if you have to submit educational degrees but are still waiting and you still have more than 2 months on your visa).

[davethailand]

I'm still a little unclear about the terms.  Here's my question:

If you apply for a non-imm B and submit paperwork from your employer, are you illegal during the time between getting the non B and waiting to submit paperwork for your working papers (example: if you have to submit educational degrees but are still waiting and you still have more than 2 months on your visa).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes I think so. A work permit can't even be applied for without a B visa, let alone the promise of one.

[kat]

So Dave, (or anyone else reading), does that mean I'm illegal in-between the non-B and the work permit, or not?

[Wolfie]

Yes I think so. A work permit can't even be applied for without a B visa, let alone the promise of one.

There was a post on the Phuket Gazette Issues and answers with applies to this discussion.. it can be found Here (Second answer down )

But to quote part of the answer...

“Thai law allows foreigners who enter the country on either non-immigrant “B” or “O” visas to apply for work permits. ”

Tuesday, November 30, 2004 

Sawang Maneerat, Technical Labor Officer of the PPEO.

[davethailand]

So Dave, (or anyone else reading), does that mean I'm illegal in-between the non-B and the work permit, or not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Inbetween the non b and the work permit issue you should have the official receipt from the labour office (if application has been submitted) on that slip it states that you CANNOT work until you have the blue book, people do though.

[Axel]

So Dave, (or anyone else reading), does that mean I'm illegal in-between the non-B and the work permit, or not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Inbetween the non b and the work permit issue you should have the official receipt from the labour office (if application has been submitted) on that slip it states that you CANNOT work until you have the blue book, people do though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely correct reply. You are working illegal until you have your blue book in your hand, that's the thing called work permit.

I mentioned before, first time I arrived on a non-imm B and applied for the WP, the forces came to my office, having informtion that there should be an illegal foreigner at work. Luckily, I had left an hour earlier. It turned out that a competitor had called the Labour dept.

The police officers made it very clear, IF they would have found me on the premises I would have been arrested for illegally working.

They did understand the situation and suggested (through my staff) that I be not in the office until WP is granted, with a hint, 'after 4:00 pm we do not check anymore'.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

So Dave, (or anyone else reading), does that mean I'm illegal in-between the non-B and the work permit, or not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Inbetween the non b and the work permit issue you should have the official receipt from the labour office (if application has been submitted) on that slip it states that you CANNOT work until you have the blue book, people do though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely correct reply. You are working illegal until you have your blue book in your hand, that's the thing called work permit.

I mentioned before, first time I arrived on a non-imm B and applied for the WP, the forces came to my office, having informtion that there should be an illegal foreigner at work. Luckily, I had left an hour earlier. It turned out that a competitor had called the Labour dept.

The police officers made it very clear, IF they would have found me on the premises I would have been arrested for illegally working.

They did understand the situation and suggested (through my staff) that I be not in the office until WP is granted, with a hint, 'after 4:00 pm we do not check anymore'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you send 'em any little gifts Axel. Spiritous beverage for instance

[Axel]

Did you send 'em any little gifts Axel. Spiritous beverage for instance 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not really, Dr., although they have been nice chaps, (Never met in person, as I did not come to the office, as advised by them) who got a bit irritated, as the phone calls by the other party did not stop. They felt mis-used until I got my WP 4 weeks later and 'begged' my staff to make sure I will not be in the office.

But the fellow who reported me, Thailand manager (and farang from same country as myself ) in my previous company, did leave LoS 2 years later after having lost a major part of his business. Actually, a farang reporting a co-farang to the Thai authorities, helped me a lot. His clients did call me at the time, asking wether the story was true and then asked for my quotation(s) for their biz.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Did you send 'em any little gifts Axel. Spiritous beverage for instance 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not really, Dr., although they have been nice chaps, (Never met in person, as I did not come to the office, as advised by them) who got a bit irritated, as the phone calls by the other party did not stop. They felt mis-used until I got my WP 4 weeks later and 'begged' my staff to make sure I will not be in the office.

But the fellow who reported me, Thailand manager (and farang from same country as myself ) in my previous company, did leave LoS 2 years later after having lost a major part of his business. Actually, a farang reporting a co-farang to the Thai authorities, helped me a lot. His clients did call me at the time, asking wether the story was true and then asked for my quotation(s) for their biz.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not too many of us admire a prick. Glad it worked out Axel.

[Ijustwannateach]

So Dave, (or anyone else reading), does that mean I'm illegal in-between the non-B and the work permit, or not?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely yes, you are illegal during that period. There are a number of older threads hashing this out if you look at the oldest part of the teacher's forum. The reason is that schools do NOT plan ahead (what Thai offices do?) so they hire locally at the last minute. However, the paperwork takes months. Since they need the teacher right away, the job is conditional on you illegally working from the start.

They (your school office) will promise up and down that this is no problem. In practical terms (but not legal), this is probably true. At least, in the numbers of teachers I've spoken with or worked with, I've never met anyone [or anyone who had met anyone] who had had legal problems because of this. However, with the government's capricious "crackdowns" and the ambiguous "the law means what we want it to mean" nature of Thai law enforcement, remember that you're working illegally primarily at YOUR risk. The school can/will also be fined for illegal employment, but YOU'RE the one going to the hoosegow and possibly made persona non grata. Fees to get out of the hoosegow are hefty.

There's no easy solution that I know about. Most schools simply will not obey the law because there's no routine enforcement of it and many school offices AND potential teachers don't understand or know the law to begin with. Ironically, it's almost necessary to work at a teaching job here illegally for a few months in order to get the paperwork necessary to continue to work at that job legally. And it's always a temptation for the school (for whom work permits are expensive and labour-intensive to get) to assume that if you can work without a WP for a few months, you can just continue a few months more.

If you want to be 100% legal and safe, insist that you have the work permit before working even a single day. But if you insist on this, you'll never work in Thailand. One good strategy is to interview the other farang teachers at the school and make sure they all have WPs and see how long it took them to get 'em.

If you have no other farang workers to ask but really want the job and your boss is playing visa/WP games with you, I'd suggest building a payment clause into your non-contract (it doesn't become a real contract until you have the WP) that increases your salary incrementally over time the longer you stay but don't have a WP- that way the pressure is on for them to get you a WP as soon as possible. If they're not willing to do that, chances are they were never planning to get you a WP in the first place.

Yep, it sucks.

"Steven"