Police Fire Tear Gas At Protesters In Front Of Parliament

[Sunderland]

What "surprise" is it that they are suggesting for the coming hours? Is Thaksin going to jump out a box or skydive into the stadium?

[Jai Dee]

Source: Matichon - 01 November 2008

[Sunderland]

Photos sum it up well, although it was much fuller half an hour ago on TNN. All seats occupied, except for the ones behind the stage which I assume is pretty normal when you set up a stage facing one direction. Looked like a full house. What time is kick-off?

[animatic]

Forget about democracy and dictatorship and people power:

Deep and long lasting emotional attachment to one man which looks totally irrational when you encounter it personally. The other day I saw a woman kissing Thaksin's picture in the paper, she reportedly has his photo in her purse instead of her husband's. Her co-workers just shrug their shoulders - "ba pai laew".

They don't love someone for no reason. Who does the most to improve their lives and the country will be loved.

The first thing a demagogue does to win the minds is win the hearts first with false flag promises,

Then he reels in the minds with half truth arguments.

Once that's done, it's simple maintence of ignorance.

Demagogue's with a solid base gains control of POWER,

it's a few short steps to psycophants lies, and arrogance expansion running amuck

followed by hubris and feelings of uncredible omnipotence.

A short slide to dictatorship is in the cards.

Thaksin took an express route, without a return trip booked.

Like PAD or not, they are only the point of this anti-Thaksin battle.

The powers arrayed against him are too great to overcome,

even with all his bags of money, and brainwashed ,heart broken

or bribed hirelings.

This can lead to pain for all, or he can quietly slink away

and QUIETLY await a deal for SOME of his money back if he does.

IIf he doesn't they will be hel_l to pay for sure.

[Jai Dee]

Courts to listen in

The Office of the Judiciary will monitor what former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra says, watching for any sign of contempt of court when he addresses a pro-government rally on Saturday evening. A judicial source said His words will be closely monitored in case Thaksin criticises the court over his conviction in the Ratchadaphisek land purchase case during the Kwam Jing Wan Nee (The Truth Today) political talk show.

About 8pm (1300 GMT) Thaksin is expected to telephone from London to address his supporters. The show will be broadcasting live from the Rajamangala stadium in Hua Mark, where his supporters will gather under the banner of the United Front of Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD).

More from the Bangkok Post here.

[Plus]

Oh --- hang on a moment: "Under PAD proposal they would come from non-political, professional and socially active circles."

Now I feel a whole lot better ---- the new politics government appoints these paragons of virtue who are no doubt selected (partially at least) because of their independence of thought and now all is well with the world.

When in the future the people are disatisified with their government and are unable to change them at the ballot box as they are 70% self appointed ----- what do you imagine might happen?

These selected/appointed MPs will represent their sponsors, they don't need to be paragons of virtue or have independence of thought (quite the opposite, actually) - they have to protect and advance interests of the group that sent them there. No more no less.

In a way it is simply redefining the constituencies - instead of geographical borders they will be "social unit" based.

The advantage is that work of both the government and the parliament in the modern age is driven by those social units anyway, not by geographical locations. As I mentioned so many times earlier - there's no Ministry of Isan, there's a Ministry of Transport instead, but we don't have representatives of transport industries, we have representatives of Isan. That's a big management issue, a clear mismatch between personnel and job descriptions.

Another advantage is that the traditional backdoor behind the curtain lobbying will be brought out in the open and, for example, MPs selected from small retailers would have to present their case on the parliament floor against MPs selected from superstores. Right now they fight these battles on the streets or in unnamed offices. Just yesterday Thai Retailers Assocciation pulled out from negoatiations regarding the Retail Trade Bill because they were completely excluded from the process, despite earlier promises. This bill has been in the works since early junta days, and not once the warring sides had a chance to debate it in parliament because they are not represented directly, they only control a certain amount of proxies (village based MPs) who don't have any knowledge of the subject and are told to vote for or against as directed by party wheeps.

This makes a complete mockery of "representative" democracy - the MPs don't represent anyone, they are in full service of their parties. On both sides of the isle, I might add.

[Sunderland]

If Thaksin is in London and Hong Kong at the same time, then there is an outside chance he will also jump out of a box in the stadium after all.

[Jai Dee]

Manit attacks 2007 charter

Former Criminal Court chief Manit Chitchanklub attacked the 2007 Constitution as lacking legitimacy.

Manit was the first leader of the Democrat Alliance Against Dictatorship to make a speech at the Rajamangala Stadium at 5:30 pm Saturday.

He said the charter needed to be amended as it came from a coup.

Source: The Nation - 01 November 2008

[animatic]

Source: Matichon - 01 November 2008

How wonderfully conveinent for Public Relations when most of the SEATS are also RED,

even when no one is IN IT!

'Why, the stadium is FULL don'chya know!'

So predicatable, don't forget to inflate the numbers

and be careful to get JUST the right camera angles too.

[Sunderland]

TNN showing pictures of the 'reds' and 'yellows' waving their happy clappers at their respective venues. Wonder if Sondhi or Chamlong has scheduled a speech to coincide with the timing of Thaksin's at 8pm.

[Sunderland]

Source: Matichon - 01 November 2008

How wonderfully conveinent for Public Relations when most of the SEATS are also RED,

even when no one is IN IT!

'Why, the stadium is FULL don'chya know!'

So predicatable, don't forget to inflate the numbers

and be careful to get JUST the right camera angles too.

I am very much 'neutral' and certainly don't support the pro-government camp. However, the TV pictures on TNN show the stadium to be very full around 80% of the bowl and the entire area in front of the stage. Having been there when there were 60,000 for a football match, I would conservatively estimate there are 60,000 - 80,000 inside the stadium, plus quite a number shown to be outside.

[Jai Dee]

PAD guards step up security

Guards of the People's Alliance for Democracy stepped up security at their checkpoints around the Government House while the pro-government people were holding a mass rally at the Rajamangala Stadium.

The number of guards around the Government House was increased.

PAD supporters from Bangkok and provinces continued to join the rally inside the Government House. Their number kept rising at about 6 pm.

Source: The Nation - 01 November 2008

[animatic]

Oh --- hang on a moment: "Under PAD proposal they would come from non-political, professional and socially active circles."

Now I feel a whole lot better ---- the new politics government appoints these paragons of virtue who are no doubt selected (partially at least) because of their independence of thought and now all is well with the world.

When in the future the people are disatisified with their government and are unable to change them at the ballot box as they are 70% self appointed ----- what do you imagine might happen?

These selected/appointed MPs will represent their sponsors, they don't need to be paragons of virtue or have independence of thought (quite the opposite, actually) - they have to protect and advance interests of the group that sent them there. No more no less.

In a way it is simply redefining the constituencies - instead of geographical borders they will be "social unit" based.

The advantage is that work of both the government and the parliament in the modern age is driven by those social units anyway, not by geographical locations. As I mentioned so many times earlier - there's no Ministry of Isan, there's a Ministry of Transport instead, but we don't have representatives of transport industries, we have representatives of Isan. That's a big management issue, a clear mismatch between personnel and job descriptions.

Another advantage is that the traditional backdoor behind the curtain lobbying will be brought out in the open and, for example, MPs selected from small retailers would have to present their case on the parliament floor against MPs selected from superstores. Right now they fight these battles on the streets or in unnamed offices. Just yesterday Thai Retailers Assocciation pulled out from negoatiations regarding the Retail Trade Bill because they were completely excluded from the process, despite earlier promises. This bill has been in the works since early junta days, and not once the warring sides had a chance to debate it in parliament because they are not represented directly, they only control a certain amount of proxies (village based MPs) who don't have any knowledge of the subject and are told to vote for or against as directed by party wheeps.

This makes a complete mockery of "representative" democracy - the MPs don't represent anyone, they are in full service of their parties. On both sides of the isle, I might add.

Actually it harkens back to the European Guild Systems of several hundred years

successful service to their countries and peoples. The Kings ran most stuff,

but the guilds dealt with specific areas, and also had representation in courts,

and dealt with politics relevant to their guilds sector in the economy.

Not perfect democracy, but a working system none the less.

Edited November 1, 2008 by animatic

[Koo82]

The PPP only cleared what were done during Mr. Pom Kit Wa's time.

I think I lost you here. Are you talking about PPP or TRT? If you mean 1997 crisis, Democrats have absolutely nothing to do with it - even the IMF terms were negotiated by Thanong Bidaya, who eventually became Finance Minister in Thaksin's government.

Democrats took power in December that year and had no other options but follow the agreements. And where was our dear Thaksin at that time? He made a lot of money when the country has lost so much.

And what was the first order of business when he came to power - use nation's money to save rich businessmen (who actually led the economy to the crisis) from bankrupsy. Thaksin and his pals has also bought lots of cheap assets reposessed from those businessmen - Ratchada land, for example.

Khun Thaksin cleared all the IMF loans. That is all that matters.

[fidelio]

Oh --- hang on a moment: "Under PAD proposal they would come from non-political, professional and socially active circles."

Now I feel a whole lot better ---- the new politics government appoints these paragons of virtue who are no doubt selected (partially at least) because of their independence of thought and now all is well with the world.

When in the future the people are disatisified with their government and are unable to change them at the ballot box as they are 70% self appointed ----- what do you imagine might happen?

These selected/appointed MPs will represent their sponsors, they don't need to be paragons of virtue or have independence of thought (quite the opposite, actually) - they have to protect and advance interests of the group that sent them there. No more no less.

In a way it is simply redefining the constituencies - instead of geographical borders they will be "social unit" based.

The advantage is that work of both the government and the parliament in the modern age is driven by those social units anyway, not by geographical locations. As I mentioned so many times earlier - there's no Ministry of Isan, there's a Ministry of Transport instead, but we don't have representatives of transport industries, we have representatives of Isan. That's a big management issue, a clear mismatch between personnel and job descriptions.

Another advantage is that the traditional backdoor behind the curtain lobbying will be brought out in the open and, for example, MPs selected from small retailers would have to present their case on the parliament floor against MPs selected from superstores. Right now they fight these battles on the streets or in unnamed offices. Just yesterday Thai Retailers Assocciation pulled out from negoatiations regarding the Retail Trade Bill because they were completely excluded from the process, despite earlier promises. This bill has been in the works since early junta days, and not once the warring sides had a chance to debate it in parliament because they are not represented directly, they only control a certain amount of proxies (village based MPs) who don't have any knowledge of the subject and are told to vote for or against as directed by party wheeps.

This makes a complete mockery of "representative" democracy - the MPs don't represent anyone, they are in full service of their parties. On both sides of the isle, I might add.

Actually it harkens back to the European Guild Systems of several hundred years

successful service to their countries and peoples. The Kings ran most stuff,

but the guilds dealt with specific areas, and also had representation in courts,

and dealt with politics relevant to their guilds sector in the economy.

Not perfect democracy, but a working system none the less.

In other words , the middle ages.

[Sunderland]

Thaksin is having trouble getting through. Either the line is engaged or his money has run out ...

[animatic]

The PPP only cleared what were done during Mr. Pom Kit Wa's time.

I think I lost you here. Are you talking about PPP or TRT? If you mean 1997 crisis, Democrats have absolutely nothing to do with it - even the IMF terms were negotiated by Thanong Bidaya, who eventually became Finance Minister in Thaksin's government.

Democrats took power in December that year and had no other options but follow the agreements. And where was our dear Thaksin at that time? He made a lot of money when the country has lost so much.

And what was the first order of business when he came to power - use nation's money to save rich businessmen (who actually led the economy to the crisis) from bankrupsy. Thaksin and his pals has also bought lots of cheap assets reposessed from those businessmen - Ratchada land, for example.

Khun Thaksin cleared all the IMF loans. That is all that matters.

Wrong again, he took credit for that nothing more.

This MASSIVE debt was repackaged for sale to "NON-Thailand passport holders" abroad,

and is a time bomb waiting to rock the country again...

A classic Ponzi Shell Game, but at the national / international level.

Complete and utter <deleted>; Koo koo.

[jingjingna]

From what I understand, the crowd are waiting for Mr Weera/Veera to arrive at the stadium as he will be the one receiving the call from Thaksin.

[tig28]

Oh --- hang on a moment: "Under PAD proposal they would come from non-political, professional and socially active circles."

Now I feel a whole lot better ---- the new politics government appoints these paragons of virtue who are no doubt selected (partially at least) because of their independence of thought and now all is well with the world.

When in the future the people are disatisified with their government and are unable to change them at the ballot box as they are 70% self appointed ----- what do you imagine might happen?

These selected/appointed MPs will represent their sponsors, they don't need to be paragons of virtue or have independence of thought (quite the opposite, actually) - they have to protect and advance interests of the group that sent them there. No more no less.

In a way it is simply redefining the constituencies - instead of geographical borders they will be "social unit" based.

The advantage is that work of both the government and the parliament in the modern age is driven by those social units anyway, not by geographical locations. As I mentioned so many times earlier - there's no Ministry of Isan, there's a Ministry of Transport instead, but we don't have representatives of transport industries, we have representatives of Isan. That's a big management issue, a clear mismatch between personnel and job descriptions.

Another advantage is that the traditional backdoor behind the curtain lobbying will be brought out in the open and, for example, MPs selected from small retailers would have to present their case on the parliament floor against MPs selected from superstores. Right now they fight these battles on the streets or in unnamed offices. Just yesterday Thai Retailers Assocciation pulled out from negoatiations regarding the Retail Trade Bill because they were completely excluded from the process, despite earlier promises. This bill has been in the works since early junta days, and not once the warring sides had a chance to debate it in parliament because they are not represented directly, they only control a certain amount of proxies (village based MPs) who don't have any knowledge of the subject and are told to vote for or against as directed by party wheeps.

This makes a complete mockery of "representative" democracy - the MPs don't represent anyone, they are in full service of their parties. On both sides of the isle, I might add.

Good grief it is now becoming surreal ! If I interpret this correctly (I pray I do not) the thrust of this is that because he perceives one model of what he describes as "representative" democracy as being less than adequate for the reason outlined ---- that all such democracies are fatally flawed ---------- and should be replaced by a PAD inspired dictatorship.

Babies and bathwater spring to mind.

Most democracies around the world acknowledge that their various systems are not anywhere near perfect ---- but most people acknowledge that never --ever--anywhere --- at any time has a dictatorship been able to offer anything but oppression to the people in its clutches.

When in the future the people are disatisified with their government and are unable to change them at the ballot box as they are 70% self appointed ----- what do you imagine might happen?

[animatic]

Oh --- hang on a moment: "Under PAD proposal they would come from non-political, professional and socially active circles."

Now I feel a whole lot better ---- the new politics government appoints these paragons of virtue who are no doubt selected (partially at least) because of their independence of thought and now all is well with the world.

When in the future the people are disatisified with their government and are unable to change them at the ballot box as they are 70% self appointed ----- what do you imagine might happen?

These selected/appointed MPs will represent their sponsors, they don't need to be paragons of virtue or have independence of thought (quite the opposite, actually) - they have to protect and advance interests of the group that sent them there. No more no less.

In a way it is simply redefining the constituencies - instead of geographical borders they will be "social unit" based.

The advantage is that work of both the government and the parliament in the modern age is driven by those social units anyway, not by geographical locations. As I mentioned so many times earlier - there's no Ministry of Isan, there's a Ministry of Transport instead, but we don't have representatives of transport industries, we have representatives of Isan. That's a big management issue, a clear mismatch between personnel and job descriptions.

Another advantage is that the traditional backdoor behind the curtain lobbying will be brought out in the open and, for example, MPs selected from small retailers would have to present their case on the parliament floor against MPs selected from superstores. Right now they fight these battles on the streets or in unnamed offices. Just yesterday Thai Retailers Assocciation pulled out from negoatiations regarding the Retail Trade Bill because they were completely excluded from the process, despite earlier promises. This bill has been in the works since early junta days, and not once the warring sides had a chance to debate it in parliament because they are not represented directly, they only control a certain amount of proxies (village based MPs) who don't have any knowledge of the subject and are told to vote for or against as directed by party wheeps.

This makes a complete mockery of "representative" democracy - the MPs don't represent anyone, they are in full service of their parties. On both sides of the isle, I might add.

Actually it harkens back to the European Guild Systems of several hundred years

successful service to their countries and peoples. The Kings ran most stuff,

but the guilds dealt with specific areas, and also had representation in courts,

and dealt with politics relevant to their guilds sector in the economy.

Not perfect democracy, but a working system none the less.

In other words , the middle ages.

And around 400-800 years AFTER that too.

Didn't really fade out till the steam age of manufacturing.

[sriracha john]

PM unworried over ex-PM Thaksin's 8pm 'phone-in' rally

CHIANGMAI, Nov 1 (TNA) - Thai Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat said he was unworried about the planned phone-in to a Bangkok political rally by ousted fugitive premier Thaksin Shinwatra as he believed there would be no any violence as long as there was no 'third hand' involved to disturb the gathering.

The prime minister said he believed the police can control the situation.

Ten of thousands of Thaksin supporters were occupying the 50,000 seats Rajamangala Stadium expectantly awaiting to hear Thaksin's call from abroad, reportedly now Hong Kong, which was the highlight of the gathering organised by TV political talk show programme "Truth Today" which is aired on state-run NBT television.

The event on Saturday was organised on the theme "Truth Today Family Against the Coup d'etat."

In a country which has become polarised on red pro-government and yellow anti-government clothing, the numbers of people attending the rally, most wearing red, kept increasing.

The former prime minister was sentenced to two years imprisonment in absentia a week ago Tuesday by the Supreme Court's Criminal Division for Holders of Political Positions for violating the National Counter Corruption Act in a Bangkok land purchase deal.

The three hosts of the "Truth Today" political talk show, led by veteran politician Veera Musigapong, People Power Party MP Jatuporn Promphan and Korkaew Pikulthong appeared on stage in the stadium.

Government Spokesman Natthawut Saikua also on stage. A former host, he halted his appearance on the show after he was appointed as Government Spokesman.

Former leading members of the disbanded Thai Rak Thai Party and core leaders of pro-government group National United Front of Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) packed on the stage to show their support for the gathering.

Prime Minister Somchai, Thaksin's brother-in-law who was in Chiang Mai, said he believed the telephone call from Thaksin would not create any untoward incident as some feared, but thought that there would be no violence if there was no the 'third hand' trying to use the opportunity to cause a negative situation.

Some 1,500 police officers have been deployed to provide security for participants, while another 2,000 are on standby to respond in case of violence which could occur after the event ends at 10 pm.

[Jai Dee]

Chaturon attacks 2006 coup makers

Chaturon Chaisang, former leader of the Thai Rak Thai Party, attacked the 2006 coup makers while addressing supporters of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra at the Rajamangala Stadium.

Speaking to the crowd at 7:30 pm, Chaturon said the Council for National Security or the coup makers also had laws enacted to grant amnesty to themselves.

He said Thai people needed to prevent more coups.

He also attacked ASTV of Sondhi Limthongkul, a co-leader of the People's Alliance for Democracy, saying it had become a tool to incite Thais to kill each other.

Source: The Nation - 01 November 2008

[Jai Dee]

Jatuporn says Army chief afraid of PAD

People Power Party MP Jatuporn Promphan Saturday alleged that Army Commander-in-Chief Gen Anupong Paochinda is afraid of the People's Alliance for Democracy.

Addressing the Truth Today rally at the Rajamangala Stadium, Jatuporn said the Army chief could only raise a threat against the government but dared not take any action against the PAD.

Source: The Nation - 01 November 2008

[cmsally]

Any internet links that work to see the speeches? Tried todayfact.com but doesn't seem to work.

[sriracha john]

Former Thai PM speaks from secret location

In Thailand, thousands of people have gathered in a stadium in Bangkok to hear a speech by the country's former prime minister, Thaksin Shinawatra.

Thaksin is telephoning his speech to the stadium from an undisclosed location outside the country. Large numbers of police have been put on alert to prevent the possible outbreak of violence between his supporters and opponents.

Thaksin was deposed by the army in 2006 and moved to Great Britain. This year he returned to Thailand, but fled after his wife was sentenced for tax evasion. In October he was sentenced, in absentia, to two years' imprisonment for corruption.

Current Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat is a brother-in-law and former party member of Thaksin and is seen as no more than a figurehead. He has been under considerable pressure to step down since the outbreak of continuing unrest between supporters and opponents of the government in Bangkok.

- Radio Netherlands / 2008-11-01

[jingjingna]

cmsally,

No telephone talks taking place at the moment. TIT! Say 8.00pm but really it could be 9.00, 10,00 or whatever time!

[jingjingna]

cmsally,

My apologies! It appears he is speaking on the phone with Veera but the 'actual conversation' is not being broadcasted 'live' as I inititally thouhgt it would be. The reporters are conveying what is being said.

[cmsally]

Well TV doesn't have anything. Can't find anything on the internet either.

It seems todayfact.com should have something but the clips don't play.

[Guest Reimar]

You guy's should really think about why they took photos and personal data from those who attend that event!

First which came in mind, because of past info's, is because to get the promissed money for to be there!

But there can be much more point's for to do that. What "hard" evidence is all about, even Thaksin have learned!

Cheers.

[Jai Dee]

If there is any breaking news or additional discussion on the police actions at Government House, it can be added to this thread.

Otherwise, news about Thaksin's telephone address and dicussions concerning it can be found in this thread.