Police Fire Tear Gas At Protesters In Front Of Parliament

[animatic]

Thanks for the link George.

From the notes accompanying the file:

This CD was created by the Media Group in conjunction with Manager Online and TOC to show the real fact to the people and the world.

(emphasis my own)

So the CD was created by 3 of the PAD leader's own media organizations. No danger of any editorial bias then I suppose...

I am disappointed that TV.com deems this piece worthy of its own "sticky", especially as the accompanying notes by a Moderator advertise it as the "real fact" and make no explicit disclaimer that the news sources mentioned are in fact owned by the founder and leader of the PAD, and are thus liable to tell a very one-sided story. I appreciate that George did refer to it as the PAD's work (or at least that they were the ones distributing it), but only on this thread.

So, so right Meerkat!

Sadly, one of the Moderators on this thread is displaying partisanship beyond belief, even dredging up some quote from some unknown source on the web that police were killing "women and CHILDREN'! Needless to say, when I pointed out that it was an absolute lie designed to inflame the situation that shouldn't have been posted by even the most rabid PADister, my post was deleted!

No rule says moderators are not allowed opinions.

They are there to enforce rules, the rules don't say they have to be neutered also.

You are getting free speach here within the rules. You only get edited for :

too many multiple nested quotes, or flaming, or obvious untruths

or using alternate languages than English and Thai.

If some one comes to refute you, it IS to be expected, since it IS a discussion forum.

Would you would be saying nothing if it were a government collated video stickied?

Well guess what the government does want to show you what happened.

They are into spin to cover their tracks. Not show you their side, they CAN'T show their side.

Since that makes them look worse. All they provide are talking heads, no visuals.

This is most definitely current news of interest to many, regardless of the source.

If you don't like what the essentially raw footage shows, then maybe you are rooting

for the wrong side, even if possibly for the right reasons.

If posting something that puts your point of view in a bad light makes you upset,

then find something to post that does, rather than complain you are losing your arguments

because some feel strongly enough to argue back at you.

As to the truth or not in the video,

I have seen NO 'video editorial' in ALL of Thailand capable of properly faking what I saw.

And certainly not in under a week.

I have seen acts by PAD in those same videos that were not peaceful.

They didn't appear to edit out their own acts.

But the force used was fractional to that of the police.

I saw the use of vehicles and was not pleased, but understand it was likely someone

who was being BOMBED by police in essentially a small scale war zone,

and for whatever reasons, he or she panicked, and grabbed something at hand to fight back.

I doubt I would be in my right mind in that mellee either. Not a place cooler heads would be found.

When you expected sticks, shields and teargas, and get bombs and bullits, you might not stay even keeled either.

I have seen sections with NO CUTS, that show reprehensible acts by police.

I need not consider PAD's editorial slant, since the VIDEO speaks for it'self,

more than any talk could add or slant it.

And to attempt to minimize it because you are against it's source

does NOT diminish it's graphic weight on iota.

Edited October 20, 2008 by animatic

[hammered]

Well guys we can have our little spats and rows about what is real and what isnt, but I get the funny feeling that we are all going to be seeing some very real and nasty stuff very soon. Lets try to keep this in perspective. Right now Thailand seems to be on the verge of violence with very little being done to stop it. For that there are many to blame and no side is innocent.

Lets just hope that somehow or other violence is avoided.

Edited to add: And of course the injuries on Oct 7 were real and of course the NHRC has given its public statement, but there still seems to be an inevitability about something even worse.

Edited October 20, 2008 by hammered

[sriracha john]

Well guys we can have our little spats and rows about what is real and what isnt, but I get the funny feeling that we are all going to be seeing some very real and nasty stuff very soon. Lets try to keep this in perspective. Right now Thailand seems to be on the verge of violence with very little being done to stop it. For that there are many to blame and no side is innocent.

Lets just hope that somehow or other violence is avoided.

ditto...

Snoh fears another bloodbath will happen

Pracharaj Party Leader Snoh Thienthong said Monday that another bloodbath will definitely happen because certain people are instigating unrest.

He said he believed the country was on the brink of violence because the country was now in the state of lawlessness.

- The Nation / 2008-10-20

[sriracha john]

PM : I am now happy

The Prime Minister insisted the government would never support parties defying laws, expressed his blissfulness after several days of sorrow.

Prime Minister and Minister of Defence Somchai Wongsawat told a gatherings of Ubon Ratchathani people ... that he was utmost blissful after several days of sorrow.

Aide : PM still in high spirit

Prime Minister's Secretary-General affirmed Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat has never discouraged about his work, insisting he would go ahead working despite the calling from the armed forces' leaders last week for his resignation.

Secretary-General of the Prime Minister Choosak Sirinil, today after presiding over a fund raising function for construction a royal honorary hall in Ayutthaya province that Somchai never complained that he was discouraged as the country’s leader even though armed forces' commanders coming out last week to urge him to quit to be responsible for police's clashing with People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD)'s protesters on October 7.

The Prime Minister was still in high spirit to continue administering the country, he said, although a number of parties, including PAD who was just a group of people, have put pressure against him to resign. Past governments, he said, attracted both parties admiring and those who disliked them.

Choosak also said the government had three to four upcoming events to take care of, especially the royal cremation of the late Her Royal Highness Princess Galyani Vadhana.

If the government resigned and became acting government, it would be unsuitable to be in charge of the royal function.

The government, he said, preferred to see people in the society to do his job. Some group of people, including academics, who disagreed with the government's work, may suggest the government method of working.

But final decision rested with the government.

Regarding a four-party meeting on Monday (October 20) to amend Constitution's article 291 to resolve prevailing political deadlock, Choosak said the meeting would focus on progress of drafting of the charter amendment.

The four parties included Prime Minister Somchai, House Speaker Chai Chidchob, Senate Speaker Prasopsuk Boondet, and opposition Democrat Party Leader Abhisit Vejjajiva. But Mr. Abhisit said that he would no longer join the four-party talks after October 7's incident.

Choosak said that he preferred the Democrat Party Leader to attend the meeting as charter's amendment needed all parties' cooperation. In addition, he said that the Democrat Party used to say that every political party should approve revision of the article 291.

- ThaiNews / 2008-10-19

[frodo]

Well guys we can have our little spats and rows about what is real and what isnt, but I get the funny feeling that we are all going to be seeing some very real and nasty stuff very soon. Lets try to keep this in perspective. Right now Thailand seems to be on the verge of violence with very little being done to stop it. For that there are many to blame and no side is innocent.

Lets just hope that somehow or other violence is avoided.

Edited to add: And of course the injuries on Oct 7 were real and of course the NHRC has given its public statement, but there still seems to be an inevitability about something even worse.

Snoh fears another bloodbath will happen

Pracharaj Part leader Snoh Thienthong said Monday that another bloodbath will definitely happen because certain people are instigating unrest.

He said he believed the country was on the brink of violence because the country was now in the state of lawlessness.

The Nation

Source: http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/r...newsid=30086415

How right you are hammered. I fear we had only seen the beginning of the bloodshed on October 7th. It does appear that this will escalate even more. Snoh talked about certain people, but didn't elaborate. With Salang spouting his desire for violence...even his website is nothing but hatred, he and his ilk, in my opinion, are a big part of that lawlessness and instigaters of unrest. That is not to excuse other groups who seem to be hel_l-bent on violence as well. Throwing moltov's, etc.What a shameful place Thailand has become.

Edited October 20, 2008 by frodo

[hammered]

Well guys we can have our little spats and rows about what is real and what isnt, but I get the funny feeling that we are all going to be seeing some very real and nasty stuff very soon. Lets try to keep this in perspective. Right now Thailand seems to be on the verge of violence with very little being done to stop it. For that there are many to blame and no side is innocent.

Lets just hope that somehow or other violence is avoided.

ditto...

Snoh fears another bloodbath will happen

Pracharaj Party Leader Snoh Thienthong said Monday that another bloodbath will definitely happen because certain people are instigating unrest.

He said he believed the country was on the brink of violence because the country was now in the state of lawlessness.

- The Nation / 2008-10-20

Well you have had Mr Salang announce that he intends initiating a violent event on Wednesday. I think that is the first time to date that anyone has announced in advance that they will be gathering a mob explicitly to attack people. I do wonder if there is a law that could be used to arrest this unsavoury character and any henchmen. It is one thign to organise rallies and demonstrations as both PAD and UDD have to date, but quite another to explicitly organise and announce a planned violent event. Is anyone suggesting the arrest of this lunatic?

[Samuian]

ditto...

Snoh fears another bloodbath will happen

Pracharaj Party Leader Snoh Thienthong said Monday that another bloodbath will definitely happen because certain people are instigating unrest.

He said he believed the country was on the brink of violence because the country was now in the state of lawlessness.

- The Nation / 2008-10-20

Oh, dear, oh' dear... guess so, someone is fed up not getting anywhere, but at the same time those seeking an eskalation should know that it will escalate the situation only further and bring more sympathy towards the PAD!

I posted The Nation Article sometime before, somewhere a thousand thugs, retired "police officers" are training for Wednesday, after the funeral!

Sides are ready for confrontation...breathtaking...

"Salang's motive and stance have aroused public suspicion and will enrage the public [should clashes occur.]," he said.

"I do not believe Salang is planning the ceremony for his own purposes; somebody is no doubt pulling strings behind the scenes. Whether it is the prime minister or ex-prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra I would not know," he added.

Suriyasai also called on Army commander General Anupong Paochinda not to hold back over Salang's announcement about the ceremony.

Meanwhile, Army Maj-General Khattiya Sawasdiphol said he would mobilise government supporters against any military attempt to seize political power.

He said members of the pro-government Democratic Alliance against Dictatorship (DAAD) would use petrol bombs against tanks and military vehicles taking part in a coup attempt.

Speaking on a pro-government radio programme, he also named allies of the DAAD, especially the June 24 Movement and Saturday People Against Dictatorship, who he said would help in the anti-coup operations. He also said many leaders of former communist guerrillas had pledged their support for the DAAD because they detested Thai soldiers.

"The use of Molotov cocktails against tanks has been practised widely, but never in Thailand. This will be the first and only time that the people have threatened a counter-coup, if tanks roam Bangkok streets," he added. He said the tanks usually used in military coups, attached to the Fourth Cavalry Battalion, were old and vulnerable to catching fire.

Khattiya also denounced the top brass who appeared on a Channel 3 programme on Thursday calling for the resignation of Prime Minister Somchai Wongsawat.

"The infamy is that these military officers wore their full uniforms to threaten their commander, the prime minister, who is also the defence minister," he added.

-The Nation-

Article:

So may this "Counter Coup" be The Coup, being staged from the "invisible hand" to seize power?

This is, if it let to happen, going to be really bad!

I only hope everything is being done to prevent a bloody clash as the world had to witness on the 7th, October!

Edited October 20, 2008 by Samuian

[jumnien]

It is unlikely that any innocents will be harmed in any upcoming violence. The two gangs involved, the PAD and pro-government, are made up of members who well know the consequences of their actions.

[Guest Reimar]

It is unbelievable that there still some (members) out there who are talking that the result (2 dead and 500+ injured) and the videos are edited and untrue! That the Speech of of the PAD about killing Children and Women is a lie! And so on and so on!

The (counted) fact's (include death humans) are speaking the truth include the result of the investigation of Khun Ying Pornthip about the use of heavy weapon by Government Officials!

Beside of avaibility of the evidence, which some of the TV members claiming to be false, there is something called humanity and THAT is forget by some of the members.

Meerkat:

The only point I was trying to make with my earlier post was that one has to treat anything put out by the PAD, or the government for that matter, with more than a grain of salt. It is simplicity itself to selectively edit footage to make either side come out comparatively smelling of roses or of shit depending on your point of view. Remember that there's hours and hours of footage from each camera to choose from, all condensed into a package lasting less than an hour.

I am disappointed that TV.com deems this piece worthy of its own "sticky", especially as the accompanying notes by a Moderator advertise it as the "real fact" and make no explicit disclaimer that the news sources mentioned are in fact owned by the founder and leader of the PAD, and are thus liable to tell a very one-sided story. I appreciate that George did refer to it as the PAD's work (or at least that they were the ones distributing it), but only on this thread.

Sondhi himself has said that you can't believe everything you hear from the PAD stage, and yet we're supposed to believe from a Moderator (ie someone we are supposed to look up to as being above partisanship on this board, and from whom we risk being suspended/banned for criticising them) that this is the truth.

The point you're making is exactly that the the information I posted (the Movie) are edited by the PAD for their benefit only! I think that everybody with normal ability of thinking would agree with (not only) me that the Movie posted isn't a "Hollywood" production!

As you claiming the right for you of your just one sided published views, you have to give others the same right which includes the PAD and even ME!

That Media Group, Manager Online and TOC are owned by Khun Sondhi, is a very well known fact which everybody, even on this board knows very well, minimum of one of that group: TOC. So your claim that I didn't show the source and that those source is owned by Khun Sondhi is not only pointless but an personal attack as well because that means that I didn't tell the truth. And that was mentioned from you that those is done not by an simple person but a Moderator as well.

catmac:

Sadly, one of the Moderators on this thread is displaying partisanship beyond belief, even dredging up some quote from some unknown source on the web that police were killing "women and CHILDREN'! Needless to say, when I pointed out that it was an absolute lie designed to inflame the situation that shouldn't have been posted by even the most rabid PADister, my post was deleted!

What do you think who are you? To write on an open frorum the above quoted ist not just a flame or even attack, beside of that it's a lie, it's a accusation and that is something I do NOT tolerate in any way.

Cheers.

[hammered]

So on Wednesday unless he is lying Salang leads his men against the PAD and violence occurs in a pretty big way unless the police succesfully keep them apart. What will the police do? If the police fail to keep them apart and violence breaks out what will the military do? If the military move out of their barracks what will Sae Daeng and his private army do?

This is all starting to sound like medieval Europe.

Where are the calls for restraint? Somchai could certainly call on Salang and Sae Daeng to tone it down or even denounce them. The PAD could easily say we will sit in GH and not move in this time of raised tension. The police could state they will arrest anyone threatening violence. The military could even say they will not leave their barracks unless there is total breakdown in law and order.

What is most worrying is that it is starting to seem that the extremists on both sides actually want to see a coup launched but for very different reasons. Does that make it inevitable?

[Rajah]

Remember that there's hours and hours of footage from each camera to choose from, all condensed into a package lasting less than an hour.

The first thing you have to ask: What is not on the video? I can't see PAD protestors beat police men. But it did happen. There are photos from various news agencies about it. And the blue pick up is missing, the car which ran down police men.

Nobody is going to allege that the police is a peace corps. But the PAD isn't one either.

[Guest Reimar]

First:You forget to mention that the Police was start the attack and NOT the PAD supporter!

Second: Everybody has the right to defend them self, which includes PAD supporter as well.

Third: I had stopped to believe in photos because with today's technology, they're to easy to "adjust"! But I still trust Movies which are NOT from an Hollywood production!

Cheers.

[younghusband]

First:You forget to mention that the Police was start the attack and NOT the PAD supporter!

Second: Everybody has the right to defend them self, which includes PAD supporter as well.

Third: I had stopped to believe in photos because with today's technology, they're to easy to "adjust"! But I still trust Movies which are NOT from an Hollywood production!

Cheers.

I think this thread needs cooling down.Clearly there was poor police crowd control and equally there was a violent and thuggish minority in PAD.There is no need for anyone to defend the indefensible whether it is appalling police behaviour or the provocative violence of PAD thugs.Although it has been referred to before I don't think Chang Noi's piece on the incident has been quoted in full.It's worth considering and reflecting on particularly as it doesn't offer either side pat and easy answers.

"The fatal logic of the latest October tragedy?

13 october 2008

It’s still all about Thaksin. The people on Bangkok’s streets last week were not fighting for or against “new politics” because nobody really knows what “new politics” means. Every time a PAD-person tries to explain, it comes out differently. They were not fighting for or against the current government because everybody knows this government is a tatty puppet made out of rags and refuse. They were fighting against Thaksin – the possibility he might return, or might escape legal reckoning.

PAD came into existence to drive Thaksin from power. It revived early this year after Thaksin returned to Thailand and appeared to be steering the Samak government to block the avalanche of lawsuits descending on Thaksin and his family. Thaksin claimed he had washed his hands of Thai politics, but this clearly was not true. After he fled into exile, he dropped the pretence altogether. In the press release on the day of his flight, he wrote “Today is not my day. I would like to ask my supporters to be a little more patient.” with the implicit message that he would stay involved. Just three weeks before the recent street battle, he told Reuters "Politically motivated cases must be resolved by political means." In short, he sees political influence as the best way to avoid a judicial reckoning.

In the transition from Samak to Somchai, Thaksin’s role was not covert at all. PPP faction leaders flew to London to lobby his support. Party spokesmen announced that Thaksin had a role in distributing the cabinet posts. Because Thaksin gave public backing for Samak to continue as premier, some have interpreted Samak’s fall as a blow for Thaksin. That’s naïve. Although Samak was hand-picked by Thaksin, once he had become premier Samak burnished his royalist and pro-military credentials, clung onto Anupong, and eased away from his patron. In the cookery coup, Thaksin got rid of this unreliable two-faced puppet, placed his own brother-in-law in the premiership, and filled key Cabinet posts with members of the northern faction or his personal followers. Sompong Amornwiwat seemed genuinely flabbergasted to find himself in the role of foreign minister, and there’s really only one way to explain this extraordinary appointment. Even before the new line-up had paraded in their brilliant white uniforms, constitutional change was back on the agenda.

And by the laws of physics, more meddling by Thaksin meant more storm and fury from PAD.

Like other ragged protest coalitions, PAD is held together by what they are against (Thaksin). After Thaksin’s exile, Sondhi Limthongkul began a debate on what they should be for. The idea of “new politics” broadened the PAD’s message into new territory—that the problem is not just “Thaksin” but a parliamentary system easily hijacked by corrupt and self-serving politicians. This message tapped into many peoples concern, fear, and disgust. But it also was much more difficult to focus. The issue of political reform is highly complex, and the PAD is an alliance of many different groups with varying interests and ideas. The effort to define “new politics” threatened to sap energies and introduce division. Uniting against an enemy is a lot easier. Thaksin’s meddling gave the PAD leaders an opportunity to return to their successful formula. Thaksin out! Samak out! Somchai out! Whatever out! Just shake your hand-clapper. It would be hard to find a device that symbolizes simple conformity so aptly.

In PAD’s claims, Thaksin is so fearsome that their own actions are justified. The ordinary people attending the rallies wear caps and shirts claiming they are “saving the country” and tell interviewers they are there because they want to protect the king. These noble aims justify extraordinary actions. Over recent weeks, Sondhi Limthongkul has used the words “civil war.” The siege of parliament was an attempt to overthrow the government by semi-constitutional means. This is not peaceful protest, but violence justified in the name of a cause. As Sondhi explained, PAD has recruited paid militia, mostly among former soldiers and policemen. Some notorious veterans of underground warfare have helped with training. Weapons seized from PAD have ranged from guns to golf clubs. In the videos of 7 October, the PAD militia were armed with sticks, pipes, poles, handguns, slingshots, and a variety of missiles including home-made grenades and raw sewage. This is un-civil war.

On the basis of the past history of Bangkok street-fighting, there were two things that PAD could rely on when the big clash finally came. First, the security forces would perform very badly. They always do. The absence of live ammunition on 7 October was a huge step forward in Bangkok’s history of crowd control. But the police seemed to think tear gas was live ammunition, to be used in the same way. They gave no warning. They fired horizontally into the crowd. They fired far larger volumes than necessary.

Second, Bangkok street fights always have their nasty, dark side. Look at the cast of characters skulking in the shadows of past week’s events: Chavalit, Chamlong, Phanlop, Prasong. The dirty violence, traditionally attributed to a “third hand” is an absolutely guaranteed element of such events with such people around. The sickening deaths and injuries were not unfortunate but inevitable.

Perhaps the saddest sight in all this is the Democrat Party. So many of their core constituents support PAD that any dissent by the Democrats would be electoral suicide. But now they are hitched to the baggage train of a movement that claims the right to use violence and overrule law in order to overthrow an elected government. They are being dragged along at the back, shedding principles and scruples behind them like a litter of plastic bottles

Talk of reconciliation is so much air. There is nothing to reconcile about. In this drama, the puppets can only shout, clap, fight, and get hurt. The solution lies with the puppet-masters, meaning Thaksin and the anti-Thaksin forces behind the PAD. They are truly responsible for the loss and pain. Both sides.

[animatic]

Yes we saw the truck, and he definitely did run over the cop going forward.

It is not clear that backing over him was intentional.

It was a long drive back and with smoke etc.

This doesn't excuse it.

The stickied video DOES show PAD doing attacking.

It doesn't necessarily show defensive or aggressive.

BUT there is nothing that calls for the use of BOMBS against them.

There is no reasons a bereted cop should use a small hand cannon

to attempt to shoot at protesters until pulled back by another one

realizing he is ON FILM and this will go against the generals propaganda plans.

If Somchai and crew does NOT repudiate Slang and his crew before Wednesday,

if someone from the government side doesn't go and PUBLICLY tell them to BACK OFF,

then that makes it clear there is TACIT APPROVAL for the attack on Government House.

Not the actions of a legitimate government by any stretch.

Mad dogs in the streets, let loose on purpose... madness!

It is CLEAR the police as a unit is either very against PAD,

or so divided enough to be police vs. police if one side defends against

mob attacking mob. This would be a VERY bad outcome.

The police at war within itself.... shudder.

It would appear the ONLY force strong enough to keep Salang's crew away from PAD,

is the Army and this maybe the intention; Bring the army out Wednesday.

So incredibly sad that Thaksin feels total chaos is a viable solution,

to take over completely and create Thaksinland.

[Guest Reimar]

Just deleted some post's.

Just a friendly advice: STOP to insult each other or you will receive a warning.

Cheers

[jumnien]

Good photos of the PAD mobsters at work. It is good to remember that the mob was violating the law continuously for weeks before the police attempted to enforce it briefly. The PAD mob still refuses to obey Thai law!

[hammered]

First:You forget to mention that the Police was start the attack and NOT the PAD supporter!

Second: Everybody has the right to defend them self, which includes PAD supporter as well.

Third: I had stopped to believe in photos because with today's technology, they're to easy to "adjust"! But I still trust Movies which are NOT from an Hollywood production!

Cheers.

I think this thread needs cooling down.Clearly there was poor police crowd control and equally there was a violent and thuggish minority in PAD.There is no need for anyone to defend the indefensible whether it is appalling police behaviour or the provocative violence of PAD thugs.Although it has been referred to before I don't think Chang Noi's piece on the incident has been quoted in full.It's worth considering and reflecting on particularly as it doesn't offer either side pat and easy answers.

"The fatal logic of the latest October tragedy?

13 october 2008

It’s still all about Thaksin. The people on Bangkok’s streets last week were not fighting for or against “new politics” because nobody really knows what “new politics” means. Every time a PAD-person tries to explain, it comes out differently. They were not fighting for or against the current government because everybody knows this government is a tatty puppet made out of rags and refuse. They were fighting against Thaksin – the possibility he might return, or might escape legal reckoning.

PAD came into existence to drive Thaksin from power. It revived early this year after Thaksin returned to Thailand and appeared to be steering the Samak government to block the avalanche of lawsuits descending on Thaksin and his family. Thaksin claimed he had washed his hands of Thai politics, but this clearly was not true. After he fled into exile, he dropped the pretence altogether. In the press release on the day of his flight, he wrote “Today is not my day. I would like to ask my supporters to be a little more patient.” with the implicit message that he would stay involved. Just three weeks before the recent street battle, he told Reuters "Politically motivated cases must be resolved by political means." In short, he sees political influence as the best way to avoid a judicial reckoning.

In the transition from Samak to Somchai, Thaksin’s role was not covert at all. PPP faction leaders flew to London to lobby his support. Party spokesmen announced that Thaksin had a role in distributing the cabinet posts. Because Thaksin gave public backing for Samak to continue as premier, some have interpreted Samak’s fall as a blow for Thaksin. That’s naïve. Although Samak was hand-picked by Thaksin, once he had become premier Samak burnished his royalist and pro-military credentials, clung onto Anupong, and eased away from his patron. In the cookery coup, Thaksin got rid of this unreliable two-faced puppet, placed his own brother-in-law in the premiership, and filled key Cabinet posts with members of the northern faction or his personal followers. Sompong Amornwiwat seemed genuinely flabbergasted to find himself in the role of foreign minister, and there’s really only one way to explain this extraordinary appointment. Even before the new line-up had paraded in their brilliant white uniforms, constitutional change was back on the agenda.

And by the laws of physics, more meddling by Thaksin meant more storm and fury from PAD.

Like other ragged protest coalitions, PAD is held together by what they are against (Thaksin). After Thaksin’s exile, Sondhi Limthongkul began a debate on what they should be for. The idea of “new politics” broadened the PAD’s message into new territory—that the problem is not just “Thaksin” but a parliamentary system easily hijacked by corrupt and self-serving politicians. This message tapped into many peoples concern, fear, and disgust. But it also was much more difficult to focus. The issue of political reform is highly complex, and the PAD is an alliance of many different groups with varying interests and ideas. The effort to define “new politics” threatened to sap energies and introduce division. Uniting against an enemy is a lot easier. Thaksin’s meddling gave the PAD leaders an opportunity to return to their successful formula. Thaksin out! Samak out! Somchai out! Whatever out! Just shake your hand-clapper. It would be hard to find a device that symbolizes simple conformity so aptly.

In PAD’s claims, Thaksin is so fearsome that their own actions are justified. The ordinary people attending the rallies wear caps and shirts claiming they are “saving the country” and tell interviewers they are there because they want to protect the king. These noble aims justify extraordinary actions. Over recent weeks, Sondhi Limthongkul has used the words “civil war.” The siege of parliament was an attempt to overthrow the government by semi-constitutional means. This is not peaceful protest, but violence justified in the name of a cause. As Sondhi explained, PAD has recruited paid militia, mostly among former soldiers and policemen. Some notorious veterans of underground warfare have helped with training. Weapons seized from PAD have ranged from guns to golf clubs. In the videos of 7 October, the PAD militia were armed with sticks, pipes, poles, handguns, slingshots, and a variety of missiles including home-made grenades and raw sewage. This is un-civil war.

On the basis of the past history of Bangkok street-fighting, there were two things that PAD could rely on when the big clash finally came. First, the security forces would perform very badly. They always do. The absence of live ammunition on 7 October was a huge step forward in Bangkok’s history of crowd control. But the police seemed to think tear gas was live ammunition, to be used in the same way. They gave no warning. They fired horizontally into the crowd. They fired far larger volumes than necessary.

Second, Bangkok street fights always have their nasty, dark side. Look at the cast of characters skulking in the shadows of past week’s events: Chavalit, Chamlong, Phanlop, Prasong. The dirty violence, traditionally attributed to a “third hand” is an absolutely guaranteed element of such events with such people around. The sickening deaths and injuries were not unfortunate but inevitable.

Perhaps the saddest sight in all this is the Democrat Party. So many of their core constituents support PAD that any dissent by the Democrats would be electoral suicide. But now they are hitched to the baggage train of a movement that claims the right to use violence and overrule law in order to overthrow an elected government. They are being dragged along at the back, shedding principles and scruples behind them like a litter of plastic bottles

Talk of reconciliation is so much air. There is nothing to reconcile about. In this drama, the puppets can only shout, clap, fight, and get hurt. The solution lies with the puppet-masters, meaning Thaksin and the anti-Thaksin forces behind the PAD. They are truly responsible for the loss and pain. Both sides.

Yes the solution does lie with the puppet masters as defined here. It does however look like rather than stepping up to the plate they have descended into the abyss.

[animatic]

First:You forget to mention that the Police was start the attack and NOT the PAD supporter!

Second: Everybody has the right to defend them self, which includes PAD supporter as well.

Third: I had stopped to believe in photos because with today's technology, they're to easy to "adjust"! But I still trust Movies which are NOT from an Hollywood production!

Cheers.

I think this thread needs cooling down.Clearly there was poor police crowd control and equally there was a violent and thuggish minority in PAD.There is no need for anyone to defend the indefensible whether it is appalling police behaviour or the provocative violence of PAD thugs.Although it has been referred to before I don't think Chang Noi's piece on the incident has been quoted in full.It's worth considering and reflecting on particularly as it doesn't offer either side pat and easy answers.

"The fatal logic of the latest October tragedy?

13 october 2008

It’s still all about Thaksin. The people on Bangkok’s streets last week were not fighting for or against “new politics” because nobody really knows what “new politics” means. Every time a PAD-person tries to explain, it comes out differently. They were not fighting for or against the current government because everybody knows this government is a tatty puppet made out of rags and refuse. They were fighting against Thaksin – the possibility he might return, or might escape legal reckoning.

PAD came into existence to drive Thaksin from power. It revived early this year after Thaksin returned to Thailand and appeared to be steering the Samak government to block the avalanche of lawsuits descending on Thaksin and his family. Thaksin claimed he had washed his hands of Thai politics, but this clearly was not true. After he fled into exile, he dropped the pretence altogether. In the press release on the day of his flight, he wrote “Today is not my day. I would like to ask my supporters to be a little more patient.” with the implicit message that he would stay involved. Just three weeks before the recent street battle, he told Reuters "Politically motivated cases must be resolved by political means." In short, he sees political influence as the best way to avoid a judicial reckoning.

In the transition from Samak to Somchai, Thaksin’s role was not covert at all. PPP faction leaders flew to London to lobby his support. Party spokesmen announced that Thaksin had a role in distributing the cabinet posts. Because Thaksin gave public backing for Samak to continue as premier, some have interpreted Samak’s fall as a blow for Thaksin. That’s naïve. Although Samak was hand-picked by Thaksin, once he had become premier Samak burnished his royalist and pro-military credentials, clung onto Anupong, and eased away from his patron. In the cookery coup, Thaksin got rid of this unreliable two-faced puppet, placed his own brother-in-law in the premiership, and filled key Cabinet posts with members of the northern faction or his personal followers. Sompong Amornwiwat seemed genuinely flabbergasted to find himself in the role of foreign minister, and there’s really only one way to explain this extraordinary appointment. Even before the new line-up had paraded in their brilliant white uniforms, constitutional change was back on the agenda.

And by the laws of physics, more meddling by Thaksin meant more storm and fury from PAD.

Like other ragged protest coalitions, PAD is held together by what they are against (Thaksin). After Thaksin’s exile, Sondhi Limthongkul began a debate on what they should be for. The idea of “new politics” broadened the PAD’s message into new territory—that the problem is not just “Thaksin” but a parliamentary system easily hijacked by corrupt and self-serving politicians. This message tapped into many peoples concern, fear, and disgust. But it also was much more difficult to focus. The issue of political reform is highly complex, and the PAD is an alliance of many different groups with varying interests and ideas. The effort to define “new politics” threatened to sap energies and introduce division. Uniting against an enemy is a lot easier. Thaksin’s meddling gave the PAD leaders an opportunity to return to their successful formula. Thaksin out! Samak out! Somchai out! Whatever out! Just shake your hand-clapper. It would be hard to find a device that symbolizes simple conformity so aptly.

In PAD’s claims, Thaksin is so fearsome that their own actions are justified. The ordinary people attending the rallies wear caps and shirts claiming they are “saving the country” and tell interviewers they are there because they want to protect the king. These noble aims justify extraordinary actions. Over recent weeks, Sondhi Limthongkul has used the words “civil war.” The siege of parliament was an attempt to overthrow the government by semi-constitutional means. This is not peaceful protest, but violence justified in the name of a cause. As Sondhi explained, PAD has recruited paid militia, mostly among former soldiers and policemen. Some notorious veterans of underground warfare have helped with training. Weapons seized from PAD have ranged from guns to golf clubs. In the videos of 7 October, the PAD militia were armed with sticks, pipes, poles, handguns, slingshots, and a variety of missiles including home-made grenades and raw sewage. This is un-civil war.

On the basis of the past history of Bangkok street-fighting, there were two things that PAD could rely on when the big clash finally came. First, the security forces would perform very badly. They always do. The absence of live ammunition on 7 October was a huge step forward in Bangkok’s history of crowd control. But the police seemed to think tear gas was live ammunition, to be used in the same way. They gave no warning. They fired horizontally into the crowd. They fired far larger volumes than necessary.

Second, Bangkok street fights always have their nasty, dark side. Look at the cast of characters skulking in the shadows of past week’s events: Chavalit, Chamlong, Phanlop, Prasong. The dirty violence, traditionally attributed to a “third hand” is an absolutely guaranteed element of such events with such people around. The sickening deaths and injuries were not unfortunate but inevitable.

Perhaps the saddest sight in all this is the Democrat Party. So many of their core constituents support PAD that any dissent by the Democrats would be electoral suicide. But now they are hitched to the baggage train of a movement that claims the right to use violence and overrule law in order to overthrow an elected government. They are being dragged along at the back, shedding principles and scruples behind them like a litter of plastic bottles

Talk of reconciliation is so much air. There is nothing to reconcile about. In this drama, the puppets can only shout, clap, fight, and get hurt. The solution lies with the puppet-masters, meaning Thaksin and the anti-Thaksin forces behind the PAD. They are truly responsible for the loss and pain. Both sides.

YH I rarely agree with much you say,

though thank you for the lingusitc compliment earlier.

But this post is your most fair and objective.

Even as much of it is quoted from Chaing Noi.

And as such is worth of being noted.

[Guest Reimar]

....................

If Somchai and crew does NOT repudiate Slang and his crew before Wednesday,

if someone from the government side doesn't go and PUBLICLY tell them to BACK OFF,

then that makes it clear there is TACIT APPROVAL for the attack on Government House.

Not the actions of a legitimate government by any stretch.

Mad dogs in the streets, let loose on purpose... madness!

It is CLEAR the police as a unit is either very against PAD,

or so divided enough to be police vs. police if one side defends against

mob attacking mob. This would be a VERY bad outcome.

The police at war within itself.... shudder.

It would appear the ONLY force strong enough to keep Salang's crew away from PAD,

is the Army and this maybe the intention; Bring the army out Wednesday.

So incredibly sad that Thaksin feels total chaos is a viable solution,

to take over completely and create Thaksinland.

Very true words I believe.

The Government is very well know and warned about the upcoming "even" on October 22. 2008

What should be the required action from that Government? That question answers itself for those human who having an normal social feeling and I don't need to give the answer here.

In case the Government isn't step in before that event, it loose all credit to be a Government based on humanity.

And just as a sidenote: the Government also shows a total ignorance about the existing constitution if they didn't stop that upcoming even!

Cheers.

[animatic]

And neither does their nemsis Dr. Thaksin.

If he was observing Thai Law, they wouldn't need to be out here.

Who came first the chicken or the egg.

A watch dog will sit quietly until the thief comes to the gate,

then it will make whatever noise is needed to stop the thief.

This leaves two choices :

Catch or run off the thief for good,

or beat the dog into silence.

The former solves the problem and quiets the dog

the latter just gives the thief full access.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Reimar
Deleted tha quotes. Reimar

[Guest Reimar]

Good photos of the PAD mobsters at work. It is good to remember that the mob was violating the law continuously for weeks before the police attempted to enforce it briefly. The PAD mob still refuses to obey Thai law!

You forget to mention that those photos from October 7. 2008, the day of the riot and not from "weeks before"!

I really suggest that you didn't bring fact's out of contest.

Cheers.

[cmsally]

Quite honestly I fail to see why most people are getting so excited about supporting one side of the elite or the other. The PAD, the Police, the injuries and the mayhem are I believe some sideshows which provide distraction and get the focus off the issues.

It is quite possible that the military is divided for some very good and substantial reasons. Whether this whole situation has the ability to drag out indefinitely or the 3 month timeline (we are now well into second month) I have referred to, does indeed exist, remains to be seen.

The more the military sits on the fence the more it looks divided and the greater the chance of dragging the situation out or tipping the balance. Whether the balance needs to be tipped or a waiting game is sufficient will depend greatly upon whether this timeline does exist or not.

As a side note there is one school of thought (it's not one I particularly go with), that is of the opinion that the PAD could well be a dog that has the ability to turn on its master.

[hammered]

I have just read a lot of local and international news and analysis of the current situation and the worrying thing is that while there are many reports on what has happened and predictions of dire further events, it seems nobody has a clue as to how to end the disastrous situation.

[Splatter]

Quite honestly I fail to see why most people are getting so excited about supporting one side of the elite or the other. The PAD, the Police, the injuries and the mayhem are I believe some sideshows which provide distraction and get the focus off the issues.

cmsally, I agree on your points about supporting one side OR the other.

Having been at the events on U Thong Nai in the afternoon I saw provocative

and stupid behaviour from some in the PAD; rolling police trucks,

carrying golf clubs, shooting slingshots, etc etc etc.

I also saw some riot police that seemed more intent on firing tear gas

than they were on controlling and containing the situation.

Non riot dressed police on the bridge by the Dusit Zoo correctly opened up their lines

to allow protesters an escape route.

Many of these guys were helping EMS crews get to the distressed and injured.

Many PAD supporters were there protesting peacefully

and when the tear gas came in they tried to get away as quickly as possible.

There was sense and nonsense from elements on both sides.

However, rather than seeing this as a distraction I instead feel that having more people

see the mayhem may remove their apathy, and force them into asking questions.

Maybe they will then get onto considering the various issues involved.

Maybe I'm an opimist.

[hammered]

And the PM will be out of the country Oct 23-25............

[Artisi]

And the PM will be out of the country Oct 23-25............

What a coincidence - seems any problems arising on Wednesday will "not be of my doing as I was too busy getting ready for my trip" or some other lame excuse. Wonder if there will be lots of luggage leaving with him in case he can't return like his brother in-law the kensington kid.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Artisi

[jumnien]

Good photos of the PAD mobsters at work. It is good to remember that the mob was violating the law continuously for weeks before the police attempted to enforce it briefly. The PAD mob still refuses to obey Thai law!

You forget to mention that those photos from October 7. 2008, the day of the riot and not from "weeks before"!

I really suggest that you didn't bring fact's out of contest.

Cheers.

Your false accusations are grounded in your poor ability in the English language. We'll all just have to be tolerant.

[sylviex]

However, rather than seeing this as a distraction I instead feel that having more people

see the mayhem may remove their apathy, and force them into asking questions.

Maybe they will then get onto considering the various issues involved.

Maybe I'm an opimist.

While I agree entirely with cmsally, and find it worrisome to see the level of zeal from some posters here, the above is interesting to contemplate.

If any good comes from all this, it might be awareness ... but is that happening ? If not now, perhaps longer term ?

Just now I see people unaccustomed to voicing opinions taking their new-found right to do so to some absurd lengths, on both sides.

I see much manipulation and much willingness to suspend disbelief all around.

Longstanding, long-bubbling issues are beginning to surface. Yes, that's potentially good ...

I think it's quite true that you must be an optimist to take the view that questioning will occur and perhaps all nations need optimism.

But, the alternative is that Thailand's going to take a great leap backwards.

There doesn't seem to be much middle ground *being represented* here. That seems to me to be a huge part of the problem.

[Samuian]

I have just read a lot of local and international news and analysis of the current situation and the worrying thing is that while there are many reports on what has happened and predictions of dire further events, it seems nobody has a clue as to how to end the disastrous situation.

It's basically very simple and that is what makes so difficult, pardon taxin and give him and all his servants a general amnesty and written guarantee for what ever he and his team will do in the future, he will get away with it!

There is a uncertain and painful path to be gone but there is light at the end of the tunnel and as the looks of it more and more are prepared to go ahead!

We may still see some very surprising situations!

[jumnien]

Pardoning Thaksin is one possible solution. Here's another. What if the NCCC and the courts were really opposed to corruption? What if the PAD really wanted to fight corruption in Thailand? The prosecution of Thaksin and his cronies is clearly a political scam in the Thai public's eyes. That would change if the NCCC and the courts were to prosecute and convict three of the top members each from the following groups - Army, Navy, Air Force, National Police, Democrat Party, PAD and others for corruption. It would show neutrality and a dedication to a noble cause. The cases would be simple to file if justice was their goal. Onward!