Police Fire Tear Gas At Protesters In Front Of Parliament

[hammered]

Salang vows not to join anti-PAD protest

(BangkokPost.com) – Pol Gen Salang Bunnag, who has retired from police service, said he will not lead a group of officers to surround the Government House, which has been occupied by supporters of People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) Saturday as planned.

He also said that his people will not join an anti-PAD rally to be held at Sanam Luang in the evening.

Pol Gen Salang insisted that he has no intention to harm the country, but cannot let the PAD occupy the Government House any longer.

He said he the plan to seize back the Government House has not been cancelled, but he cannot say when it will take place because it is part of his strategy.

Pol Gen Salang said earlier that he would seal off the Government House to starve off the protesters, who would be denied supplies of food and water for three days.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=131626

Maybe Salang should enter the monkhood and think about how events in Suphanburi panned out a few years back before becoming anymore beligerent if he beleives in national reconciliation. After all maybe if everyone learned from their previous misdeeds we wouldnt be in this mess. I could also think of a few from both sides who should join him.

On the practical side old "extra-judicial" may be having trouble geting the numbers he needs and getting them into Bangkok. He needs someone else to organise that side of things. Maybe if he waits until the Thaksin TV announcement old "extra-judicial" can then divert the crowds to GH although it is a bit of a walk. We will see.

[Pierrot]

It’s funny how a number of people made a sudden u-turn following previous statements, especially when they opposed PAD demonstrators

One of the challenge of the last century was for physic to identify “dark matter”. I believe the challenge of this century, in Thailand at least, will be to identify the “dark force” behind these u-turns.

[Samuian]

[..... may be having trouble geting the numbers he needs and getting them into Bangkok. He needs someone else to organise that side of things. ...

It all comes down to the "strong support" from "rural areas", this shows that they haven't got this support!

Much of it is only banged up, with a free ticket, free ride yes why not, "give your vote here, we will take care of the rest"! Yes, but as there is, never was any genuine support,people simple don't care and there might be some "ahhh an' ooohhh" enlightenment!

They haven't done their homework well, Sabre rattling, not much else!

As the "bad omen" that he DAAD stage got almost destroyed.... BEFORE any event could take place and then, how discouraging it must feel if on threatens with 10.000 marching against "dictatorship and communism" to oust "the evildoers once and forever" and then finds himself alone with less then a hundred "supporters" who just happen to be there anyway, listening what this "guy is talking" about.

After all this is Thailand... much is said, little really done unless the well goes to the bucket!

Edited October 25, 2008 by Samuian

[GomerPyle]

It all comes down to the "strong support" from "rural areas", this shows that they haven't got this support!

Much of it is only banged up, with a free ticket, free ride yes why not, "give your vote here, we will take care of the rest"! Yes, but as there is, never was any genuine support,people simple don't care and there might be some "ahhh an' ooohhh" enlightenment!

You're talking about the PAD right ?

[hammered]

I dont doubt the PPP have strong electoral support in the rural areas. In fact I persoanlly know quite a few. It is however another thing turning them out in Bangkok and at an event that may be violent. Farmers may be poor but like most people they dont want to be beaten up or killed or have a tank driven over them and especially in a town a long way away where they dont have any roots or kno wanyone and where they may rely on largesse to even eat. They are also quite aware that violence may very well break out.

The other options are to dupe people as in take them for a known event and then sidetrack them, but again people might be poor but arent necessarily gullible. The Thaksin video speech may be an opportunity here. Another option is to use one of a couple of well known PPP supporters who can orgnize large gangs of young men who dont mind a bit of violence. However, it seems at least one of those who can organise such an event is not willing to. Another option may be to pull in favours from state officials either directly or through local MPs. This has been used quiter succesfully in the past. However, now to be in neutral gear means not having to worry if the other side wins and this is not going to be so easy. The other way is throught he UDD but they are limited in number and factional.

There is also the question of how many would you need. The PAD enjoys a lot of suppor tin Bangko and surrounds and can mobilize very rapidly as we have seen and the more they are threatened probably the greater numbers they can pull in. That means the PPP initiative needs massive numbers able to withstand any rapid mobilization that they wont be able to match.

There is also now talk of both the PAD and the UDD/DAAD/Salang/Sae Daeng having gone far too far. Maybe they'll all end up being punished, but in that scenario the critical question is where does it leave the PPP?

[Samuian]

It all comes down to the "strong support" from "rural areas", this shows that they haven't got this support!

Much of it is only banged up, with a free ticket, free ride yes why not, "give your vote here, we will take care of the rest"! Yes, but as there is, never was any genuine support,people simple don't care and there might be some "ahhh an' ooohhh" enlightenment!

You're talking about the PAD right ?

Do NOT use CRYSTAL BALL unless you're a well experienced MAGICIAN!

Nice try however!

Put this back into the original context of the post and you can happily discard the foggy crystal ball, of no help as you can see...!

.................edit.........

There is also now talk of both the PAD and the UDD/DAAD/Salang/Sae Daeng having gone far too far. Maybe they'll all end up being punished, but in that scenario the critical question is where does it leave the PPP?

Basically it's about saving face and not to appear simply bend, how much more support can a movement have then the appaerence of the queen at the funeral of one of the slain ones, when some police action went very, very bad...?

As Anand has said, "he (Takky) is the man who holds the key to peace!"

Edited October 25, 2008 by Samuian

[hammered]

It all comes down to the "strong support" from "rural areas", this shows that they haven't got this support!

Much of it is only banged up, with a free ticket, free ride yes why not, "give your vote here, we will take care of the rest"! Yes, but as there is, never was any genuine support,people simple don't care and there might be some "ahhh an' ooohhh" enlightenment!

You're talking about the PAD right ?

Do NOT use CRYSTAL BALL unless you're a well experienced MAGICIAN!

Nice try however!

Put this back into the original context of the post and you can happily discard the foggy crystal ball, of no help as you can see...!

.................edit.........

There is also now talk of both the PAD and the UDD/DAAD/Salang/Sae Daeng having gone far too far. Maybe they'll all end up being punished, but in that scenario the critical question is where does it leave the PPP?

Basically it's about saving face and not to appear simply bend, how much more support can a movement have then the appaerence of the queen at the funeral of one of the slain ones, when some police action went very, very bad...?

As Anand has said, "he (Takky) is the man who holds the key to peace!"

Assuming suppor of someone doesnt mitigate against that even say if the PAD side win that there wont have to be punishment to some or all of their leaders unless of course they all get liver cancer. THere is a very divided country to put back together and it aint going to happen by imprisoning everything Thaksin and his mates and leaving every indiscretion of the PAD unpunished in even the mildest form. For closure there needs to be punishments meted out on both sides.

There are also some that believe that the PAD is actually a front for others but those others will turn on it at some convenient point in the future.

[hammered]

There is a report in the Post now where Salang denies ever mentioning the surround of parliament. Curioser and curioser

[h90]

It all comes down to the "strong support" from "rural areas", this shows that they haven't got this support!

Much of it is only banged up, with a free ticket, free ride yes why not, "give your vote here, we will take care of the rest"! Yes, but as there is, never was any genuine support,people simple don't care and there might be some "ahhh an' ooohhh" enlightenment!

You're talking about the PAD right ?

Do NOT use CRYSTAL BALL unless you're a well experienced MAGICIAN!

Nice try however!

Put this back into the original context of the post and you can happily discard the foggy crystal ball, of no help as you can see...!

.................edit.........

There is also now talk of both the PAD and the UDD/DAAD/Salang/Sae Daeng having gone far too far. Maybe they'll all end up being punished, but in that scenario the critical question is where does it leave the PPP?

Basically it's about saving face and not to appear simply bend, how much more support can a movement have then the appaerence of the queen at the funeral of one of the slain ones, when some police action went very, very bad...?

As Anand has said, "he (Takky) is the man who holds the key to peace!"

Assuming suppor of someone doesnt mitigate against that even say if the PAD side win that there wont have to be punishment to some or all of their leaders unless of course they all get liver cancer. THere is a very divided country to put back together and it aint going to happen by imprisoning everything Thaksin and his mates and leaving every indiscretion of the PAD unpunished in even the mildest form. For closure there needs to be punishments meted out on both sides.

There are also some that believe that the PAD is actually a front for others but those others will turn on it at some convenient point in the future.

You only need the military to walk in...PAD walks home. UDD/DAAD/Salang/Sae Daeng walks home as there are bigger powers, no one of them want to stay in a military jail.

improving the current constitution to be more efficient against vote buying and to remove the possibilities of switching party names.

(For example in Austria and Germany NAZI partys are banned, no matter what new name they register).

Additional start a big education program, both on schools and TV. That will need a long time to show results but better starting now than never.

[h90]

There is a report in the Post now where Salang denies ever mentioning the surround of parliament. Curioser and curioser

Version 1. Someone told him if there are clashes the army will stage a coup.

2. Takky ordered it and today Salang received the first half of the money. Just half of the money is better than being dead

3. It was just a scare people away strategy ala Samak and Chalerm. Which worked the same well as the others before.

[Samuian]

........edited.... unless of course they all get liver cancer. THere is a very divided country to put back together and it aint going to happen by imprisoning everything Thaksin and his mates and leaving every indiscretion of the PAD unpunished in even the mildest form. For closure there needs to be punishments meted out on both sides.

There are also some that believe that the PAD is actually a front for others but those others will turn on it at some convenient point in the future.

Am I wrong or aren't Sondhi and Chalerm out on bail right now?

The "liver cancer" refuge is something viable....

However, there is a lot of mopping up to do, and f course if Sondhi goes to jail, samak should, if samak does, takky shall...let's see, how creative things will get, unless Takky isn't willing to kneel in front....ah well ya know... The Nation portrayed him doing so together with Poodji all in white already, rehearsing, maybe a signal... ah'well ya know.

[GomerPyle]

It all comes down to the "strong support" from "rural areas", this shows that they haven't got this support!

Much of it is only banged up, with a free ticket, free ride yes why not, "give your vote here, we will take care of the rest"! Yes, but as there is, never was any genuine support,people simple don't care and there might be some "ahhh an' ooohhh" enlightenment!

You're talking about the PAD right ?

Do NOT use CRYSTAL BALL unless you're a well experienced MAGICIAN!

Nice try however!

Put this back into the original context of the post and you can happily discard the foggy crystal ball, of no help as you can see...!

.................edit.........

There is also now talk of both the PAD and the UDD/DAAD/Salang/Sae Daeng having gone far too far. Maybe they'll all end up being punished, but in that scenario the critical question is where does it leave the PPP?

Basically it's about saving face and not to appear simply bend, how much more support can a movement have then the appaerence of the queen at the funeral of one of the slain ones, when some police action went very, very bad...?

As Anand has said, "he (Takky) is the man who holds the key to peace!"

Assuming suppor of someone doesnt mitigate against that even say if the PAD side win that there wont have to be punishment to some or all of their leaders unless of course they all get liver cancer. THere is a very divided country to put back together and it aint going to happen by imprisoning everything Thaksin and his mates and leaving every indiscretion of the PAD unpunished in even the mildest form. For closure there needs to be punishments meted out on both sides.

There are also some that believe that the PAD is actually a front for others but those others will turn on it at some convenient point in the future.

You only need the military to walk in...PAD walks home. UDD/DAAD/Salang/Sae Daeng walks home as there are bigger powers, no one of them want to stay in a military jail.

improving the current constitution to be more efficient against vote buying and to remove the possibilities of switching party names.

(For example in Austria and Germany NAZI partys are banned, no matter what new name they register).

Additional start a big education program, both on schools and TV. That will need a long time to show results but better starting now than never.

How many coups will you need to understand that the military and Co is not the answer to the problem, but quite the contary actually.

[Slip]

How many coups will you need to understand that the military and Co is not the answer to the problem, but quite the contary actually.

Does anyone know this guy's original TV account?

[animatic]

How many coups will you need to understand that the military and Co is not the answer to the problem, but quite the contary actually.

Does anyone know this guy's original TV account?

It sure scans like familiar text...

It is a valid point,

but ignores the problem with Thaksin's remote control,

which is JUST as onerous as a miltary control.

Either case you get someone with a true mandate to control the executive.

And Thaksin IS convicted, and TRT is Banned and HE is banned,

so no mandate period no matter what time frame you look at.

A system needs to be implemented, other than 'New Politics',

that enables a house cleaning andfremoves Shin Corps War Room

from the levers of power. That clicque won't like it.

But NOTHING will go back to normal with them at the shadow helm.

Anand is quite right on that; One person can end this.

[Journalist]

You only need the military to walk in...PAD walks home.

Unfortunate but true - a group seeking democracy that wishes for military dictatorship.

I'm afraid that no group sincere about democracy would ever tolerate a military government for even one nanosecond. Even the most debased and flawed civil system would be preferable to true democrats, however structural its faults and however hard winning elections was.

And elections can eventually be won by underdog Oppositions - even in basket case neo-democracies like Philippines, Indonesia.

Soldiers can't run governments. Neither can CEOs.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Journalist

[h90]

How many coups will you need to understand that the military and Co is not the answer to the problem, but quite the contary actually.

Does anyone know this guy's original TV account?

What's your problem Slip ?

You want to ban me ?

no you are banned already...we just try to figure out which our former name, before you got banned, was.

Edited October 25, 2008 by h90

[h90]

You only need the military to walk in...PAD walks home.

Unfortunate but true - a group seeking democracy that wishes for military dictatorship.

I'm afraid that no group sincere about democracy would ever tolerate a military government for even one nanosecond. Even the most debased and flawed civil system would be preferable to true democrats, however structural its faults and however hard winning elections was.

And elections can eventually be won by underdog Oppositions - even in basket case neo-democracies like Philippines, Indonesia.

Soldiers can't run governments. Neither can CEOs.

Soldiers can't run a government, that's sure. But they can bring back democracy. Like Surayud tried. But actually he failed.

Who else can bring back democracy? This government came with vote buying into power. It is on remote control of an criminal in London and all the acting person are either either incompetent and/or criminals.

In compare almost every military government would look good.

The best option would be a quick military coup, putting a civil government of experts and former politician in power for say 1-2 years. Improve the constitution to be more efficient against vote buying. Change the election system away from electing regional to just a Thailand wide list.

Problem fixed.

do you have any better solution.

[Journalist]

^ yes Surayud did fail.

And most likely the next junta of soldiers will fail too. Because there is nobody mature for them to hand over to. And they don't know how to govern, manage a modern multidimensional economy or develop democratic institutions. Their skills and training lie elsewhere.

Why will the next military government find it just as difficult as the last one? Because it is very hard.

It takes countries a long time to develop multi-party democracy.

Slowly developing those institutions and parties is the way to go. When they are ready, and the country is ready for them they will surely win. Taiwan, Malaysia, South Korea add those to the list, they all have powerful oppositions that either have or can win elections. None used tanks. That's the way...

Not to go running back to the boys with the guns ....every single time. Thats the banana republic way.

Might take 10 years to get rid of TRT/PPP that way, but to-ing and fro-ing with military regimes, it might take you 20.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Journalist

[h90]

The main problem is, after taking power handing it over to who?

The Democrates won't want. The PAD promised that they don't want.

The military won't be successful themself.

I actually think that the military would have more skills than the current government (look at the minister now) and the Thai Economy showed in the last few years that it can survive without being managed.

But the best I can expect from a military government is to be medium in quality, neither making damage nor much progress.

Unless they find a good leader somewhere

I don't see any slow progress in Thailand, I see it more going down the road.

Having that power struggle and extreme corruption for the next 10 year is no option, it would destroy all the past developments.

^ yes Surayud did fail.

And most likely the next junta of soldiers will fail too. Because there is nobody mature for them to hand over to. And they don't know how to govern, manage a modern multidimensional economy or develop democratic institutions. Their skills and training lie elsewhere.

Why will the next military government find it just as difficult as the last one? Because it is very hard.

It takes countries a long time to develop multi-party democracy.

Slowly developing those institutions and parties is the way to go. When they are ready, and the country is ready for them they will surely win. Taiwan, Malaysia, South Korea add those to the list, they all have powerful oppositions that can win elections. They havne't used tanks. That's the way...

Not to go running back to the boys with the guns ....every single time. Thats the banana republic way.

Might take 10 years to get rid of TRT/PPP that way, but to-ing and fro-ing with military regimes, it might take you 20.

[Journalist]

^Correct. It is a very hard problem for them to know who to hand over the controls to.

I'm sure if they knew, the army would have acted already.

Remember, during the Surayud Government, the army secured their funds and medium term budgets. Army officers in general are happy now, and they personally are feeling satisfied they can make a good living within their barracks. So why intervene to do something they will probably not succeed in? its a fair point.

Oh, and 10 years of PPP/TRT, - in between military governments - is a conservative estimate. They'll keep re-appearing, every single time. They can keep reinventing themselves, and they still have all those party offices upcountry, and even if they don't hand out THB500 notes, they still have fans.. They're going to be here a very long time.

....Just until someone more appealing emerges- in civilian clothes - who has taken the time to develop a strong provincial network.

Edited October 25, 2008 by Journalist

[jingjingna]

I was in Bangkok last week visiting a sick Thai relative at Bumrunrgrad(sp?). He is in ICU making slow but good progress after undergoing a liver transplant.

My Thai sister in law, who is a bit of a brave wonderer and a PAD supporter, suggested we go visit the Government House. To be honest, I was not so keen on the idea. Toxin had been handed down a 2 year prison sentence the evening before.

Anyway. we went and I was alarmed at the number of PAD supporters that have taken over the Govt House. This place is huge!

Supporters are camped out everywhere, tents, makeshift beds ...they all have television access within 300 metres of where they choose to camp out. They will not die of thirst, I have never seen so much bottled water in one place in my life!

Walking along, I noticed there was not one single policeman in sight!

The only weapons which were few and far between that I witnessed were golf clubs and sticks.

If the Govt cuts off food supplies, believe me, PAD have their rations and will not die of hunger.

Me personally, I am neutral to some point. However, I agree with 'do the crime pay the time'.

I am a British national and I urge the U.K to return this man to Thailand to serve his sentence...and whatever other sentences are yet to come.

For decent foreigners here in Thailand, we have to jump through hoops just to get our yearly extensions. For Thaksin to suddenly decide he won't get a 'fair trial here is ludicrous...he's basically putting his own foot in his own mouth!

Okay rant over!

[Journalist]

^Thaksin would bring everyone else down before he ever set foot on a plane to return.

And I daresay his opponents know that. By virtue of having been Prime Minister, the amount of information and intelligence that he must have on his adversaries must be mouth-watering.

Its a gambit, and using it would be a Defcon 3 option, when everything else is exhausted....mutual assured destruction.

[h90]

^Correct. It is a very hard problem for them to know who to hand over the controls to.

I'm sure if they knew, the army would have acted already.

Remember, during the Surayud Government, the army secured their funds and medium term budgets. Army officers in general are happy now, and they personally are feeling satisfied they can make a good living within their barracks. So why intervene to do something they will probably not succeed in? its a fair point.

Oh, and 10 years of PPP/TRT, - in between military governments - is a conservative estimate. They'll keep re-appearing, every single time. They can keep reinventing themselves, and they still have all those party offices upcountry, and even if they don't hand out THB500 notes, they still have fans.. They're going to be here a very long time.

....Just until someone more appealing emerges- in civilian clothes - who has taken the time to develop a strong provincial network.

I actually expected that Abhisit is the more appealing in civilian clothes. but he the impression of a nice bystander who waits what happens and keeping every option open.

Don't want to make any possible voter angry.

Neither disagree with PAD nor openly support them.....just hope that noone ask.

What does he do to give a poor farmer, who is not interested in politics, a reason to vote for him?

I don't see any.

[Journalist]

^Agreed. Abhisit (a handsome, articulate, intelligent PR-dream)

...has been a disappointment.

This was his moment to step up and dazzle as an alternative choice for leader. The defining moment for him to captivate his countrmen, by showing that eloquence and his ideology

And he has not, he has stood by, waiting to be handed the job on a plate.

[Thanh-BKK]

(For example in Austria and Germany NAZI partys are banned, no matter what new name they register).

And it's just as bad a joke as here.

OFP and BZO (Austria) who's leader just took himself out, driving twice the allowed speed with 4 times the legal alcohol level in his blood - if they are NOT Nazis, then what are they??

REP and NDP in Germany - again, pure Nazis, although cleverly disguised as "democratic".

But at least neither of those buys votes, if they did they would be IMMEDIATELY and PERMANENTLY banned from politics, plus land in jail as well. They rely on the percentage of stupid people who fall for their Nazi BS.

Here in Thailand they can openly buy votes, knowing that even if they get caught they can still call themselves "democratically elected" and get enough time in office to work out ways to pardon themselves and lay the foundations for their own re-incarnation after the party has been dissolved a year or so later.

Thanks to PAD we *might* see this process disturbed just long enough so they can actually be punished (the vote-buying PPP, that is!).

With best regards....

Thanh

[h90]

(For example in Austria and Germany NAZI partys are banned, no matter what new name they register).

And it's just as bad a joke as here.

OFP and BZO (Austria) who's leader just took himself out, driving twice the allowed speed with 4 times the legal alcohol level in his blood - if they are NOT Nazis, then what are they??

REP and NDP in Germany - again, pure Nazis, although cleverly disguised as "democratic".

But at least neither of those buys votes, if they did they would be IMMEDIATELY and PERMANENTLY banned from politics, plus land in jail as well. They rely on the percentage of stupid people who fall for their Nazi BS.

Here in Thailand they can openly buy votes, knowing that even if they get caught they can still call themselves "democratically elected" and get enough time in office to work out ways to pardon themselves and lay the foundations for their own re-incarnation after the party has been dissolved a year or so later.

Thanks to PAD we *might* see this process disturbed just long enough so they can actually be punished (the vote-buying PPP, that is!).

With best regards....

Thanh

I must disagree with you on that. You can't mean that FPOE or BZOE are anyway as close to the nsdap than ppp to trt.

As well they repeat all the time how distant they are (even there are serious doubts). But it is unthinkable that a Haider (or Strache) would say he is a nominee from Hitler. Or that flying to London/Hongkong all the time for getting new instructions.

Off topic: did you know that Haider was in a Gay Bar, having a bad discussion with his boyfriend. Than they went together with the car 100 meter, car stopped boy friend went back to the bar.

Yes vote buying would bring them immediately in jail.

[h90]

^Agreed. Abhisit (a handsome, articulate, intelligent PR-dream)

...has been a disappointment.

This was his moment to step up and dazzle as an alternative choice for leader. The defining moment for him to captivate his countrmen, by showing that eloquence and his ideology

And he has not, he has stood by, waiting to be handed the job on a plate.

Actually he gave them more the felling that he thinks he is too good to speak to normal people.

[jdinasia]

and all that has ______-all to do with thailand or the current situation here.

[Artisi]

and all that has ______-all to do with thailand or the current situation here.

Agreed, who gives a rat's @rse about Austria or Germany / Nazi / Hitler - this is Thailand in 2008.

[sriracha john]

Thaksin's TV speech cancelled

The UDD has abruptly cancelled a plan to broadcast a speech by ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra live on television next Saturday. PPP MP Jatuporn Promphan did not explain the change in plan, saying only that the political talk show Kwam Jing Wan Nee (The Truth Today) would not on air on Saturday on state-owned NBT. Jatuporn, who co-hosts the program with Government Spokesman Nattawut Saikua and Veera Musikapong, said Thaksin's remarks to supporters will instead be posted on http://www.todayfact.com and will air on NBT after Saturday. The change comes amid growing criticism of Thaksin's decision to talk to his supporters from London. Critics believe it will lead to more political tension. The last UDD gathering, held while the mobile political talk show took place on stage, was on Oct 11 at the Thunder Dome in Muang Thong Thani. It was broadcast on the television station. That gathering drew about 10,000 Thaksin fans. Organisers expect many more people to attend on Saturday at the bigger venue, Rajamangala stadium. Thaksin was sentenced to two years in jail in absentia by the Supreme Court last Tuesday. He was convicted for abuse of power in the Ratchadaphisek land deal. UDD members were with former Deputy Police Chief Salang Bunnag last Wednesday when he announced his intention to surround Government House to force the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) to give up its occupation of the venue. Police General Salang yesterday attended a merit-making ceremony with more than 200 pro-government demonstrators in Chiang Mai. He said his blockade plan was still alive and details would be finalised soon.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/261008_News/26Oct2008_news01.php