เกรงใจ Greng Jai

[stonybonytony]

My Thai friend want to be able to explain to farang why he behaves in a certain way in certain situations, he wants to say 'it's greng jai' but obviously people don't know what he's on about without a long explanation of what greng jai is. We don't really have an equivalent in the UK so it's hard to sum up in a single word - the best I can come up with is 'etiquette' or perhaps 'common courtesy' neither of which really sum it up (or are particularly easy for a Thai person to pronounce!).

Is this the closest I can come in English, or can someone out there think of a better word or phrase to sum it up?

[midasthailand]

My Thai friend want to be able to explain to farang why he behaves in a certain way in certain situations, he wants to say 'it's greng jai' but obviously people don't know what he's on about without a long explanation of what greng jai is. We don't really have an equivalent in the UK so it's hard to sum up in a single word - the best I can come up with is 'etiquette' or perhaps 'common courtesy' neither of which really sum it up (or are particularly easy for a Thai person to pronounce!).

Is this the closest I can come in English, or can someone out there think of a better word or phrase to sum it up?

Grengjai is a very useful word in Thailand, I believe it expresses a feeling of not wishing to impose/inconvenience/bother somebody else. For example in my office the staff often ask me to help them with the composition of their emails in English and usually express feelings of Grengjai for inconveniencing me/ distracting me from my tasks. It is a very high usage word in my experience and is used in a wide range of situations but always with the same basic meaning, a reluctance to ask or do something out of a fear of causing inconvenience or embarrassment to someone else.

Edited October 7, 2008 by midasthailand

[Slip]

3. ความเกรงใจ khwaamM graehngM jaiM deference; thoughtfulness; consideration (of another)

From www.Thai-language.com

[Johpa]

3. ความเกรงใจ khwaamM graehngM jaiM deference; thoughtfulness; consideration (of another)

From www.Thai-language.com

That is all fine and dandy, but the term has, in practice, quite an expansive range of meanings riding on a continuum from polite consideration of others to kiss arse some phuu yai.

[phaethon]

It sounds to me to be equivalent (in useage) to British "I hate to bother you but..", "Sorry to be a nuisence but..." , "...if it's not too much trouble." etc. as a leaders or tags to a request for help.

[jumnien]

I've always thought the word "deference" comes close.

[stonybonytony]

My understanding (quite possibly wide of the mark) is that greng jai is a much wider system, a complicated hierarchy with obligations in both directions, those lower down it show deference to those above them and in turn those above them look after those below - a sort of harking back to more feudal times where a poo yai would lord it over the poo noi, but also protect them and in theory care for their well being.

So whilst it can be deference, explaining why sometimes hitchers will travel in the back of my truck rather than inside even if it's raining, as they are too 'lowly' to sit inside with me despite my protests, it can also be used to decide who pays the bill or buys the drinks or a whole load of other social things that I'm not even sure I've got totally to grips with. Fortunately as a farang I am allowed to get away with all sorts of ignorant behaviour as I don't know any better.

It's very hard for me to understand let alone feel comfortable with, having been brought up in the 'everyone is equal' British culture.

The specific instance where this came up was my friend insisting on buying the drinks all night and not wanting to let his farang girlfriend buy any, as he felt this was the correct greng jai, she was his guest. Perhaps 'moral code', or perhaps there just isn't any English phrase that comes close.

Now I've thought about it more, there's an Andrew Biggs book that's been mentioned on this forum before, called 'what does greng jai mean in english' (in thai) maybe I should buy that.

[phaethon]

My understanding (quite possibly wide of the mark) is that greng jai is a much wider system, a complicated hierarchy with obligations in both directions, those lower down it show deference to those above them and in turn those above them look after those below - a sort of harking back to more feudal times where a poo yai would lord it over the poo noi, but also protect them and in theory care for their well being.

European Noblesse Oblige - nobles can lord it over the peasants but they have a duty of care because of that position.

It's very hard for me to understand let alone feel comfortable with, having been brought up in the 'everyone is equal' British culture.

Can't say I've ever encountered that culture...

Consider how the the ofice tea-boy would ask the CEO for a pay rise begginning with "If you wouldn't mind..." (obsequious) compared with the same CEO asking for the sugar said tea-boy forgot to put in his tea (sarcasm). Context and tone. Methinks I'll be best advised to listen out for these phrases but not rush to use them myself

[desi]

Is this the closest I can come in English, or can someone out there think of a better word or phrase to sum it up?

I have three resources on jai (heart) words.

With a very quick skim of the book, Heart Words by Christopher G Moore, I didn't find it (but I'm not saying it's not there... but it's late...)

Speak Like a Thai Heart Words by Becker...

Be courteous, be afraid of offending, with respect.

Lit: fear + heart.

From Hearts...

เกรงใจ - to be considerate; not wanting to impose something on someone.

I don't want to impose on you to drive me home today. I know you have a long way to go before you eventually get home.

ฉันเกรงใจไม่อยากให้คุณต้องขับรถพาฉันกลับบ้านวันนี้ ฉันรู้ว่าคุณต้องไปอีกไกลกว่าจะถึงบ้าน

So I'd go with someone who is courteous and considerate (and throw in 'not wanting to impose')

For the other you brought up (pickups and such)... it's all about juniors respecting those above... and it covers the Thai society I know.

I first ran into Thai students in another SE Asian country (an M.Sc. program). Now, I'm quite comfortable sitting on the floor in large groups where there isn't enough seating. But, it did put the Thai students at a disadvantage as they had a strict code of respect. As the years went by, it was noticeable when later Thai students did not adhere to the same cultural rules. The respect was still there, but they no longer went to great lengths to put themselves lower than the instructors/professionals/etc.

[Slip]

3. ความเกรงใจ khwaamM graehngM jaiM deference; thoughtfulness; consideration (of another)

From www.Thai-language.com

That is all fine and dandy, but the term has, in practice, quite an expansive range of meanings riding on a continuum from polite consideration of others to kiss arse some phuu yai.

deference

One entry found. Main Entry:def·er·ence Pronunciation: \ˈde-fə-rən(t)s, ˈdef-rən(t)s\ Function:noun Date:1660 : respect and esteem due a superior or an elder ; also : affected or ingratiating regard for another's wishes

— in deference to : in consideration of <returned early in deference to her parents' wishes>

So it seems to me the link I posted was pretty well spot on. Some have suggested that the level of 'Kreng Jai' that you are 'supposed' to achieve depends on your social standing. Of course (as far as I understand) only the Pu Yai who still behaves in a "Kreng Jai' manner is the true master but my understanding is that this is how it works- One should behave in this way to everyone regardless of whether they are your senior or junior- anything else is not genuinely "Kreng Jai". However, maybe what StonyBonyTony says is true- the exact obligations of 'Kreng Jai' differ depending upon you status. I think I want to try and find out about this- I'll report back (but not for at least a week as I'm off on me hols tomorrow )

[EDIT- Sorry, forgot to quote definition's source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deference]

Edited October 8, 2008 by Slip

[Thaddeus]

respect

Bingo.

[Johpa]

respect

Bingo.

It has nothing to do with respect. Words that imply an English sense of respect might be khao rop, or nap thuu (often sued in combination) , or encapsulated in the phrase bun khun. But kreng jai is more appropriately nuanced with words like deference or subservience. In rural Thailand one is often scolded to kreng jai some dastardly phuu yai even when you want to b1tch slap them because such people (cao nais or some bureaucrat) will otherwise use their power to make your life miserable . Now it can be used in a more positive manner as when one is talking about interacting with senior citizens, but overall it is a feudal expression used to note subservience.

[mangkorn]

Good points Johpa. Fear is a very big element of it. When respect is mandatory, it's not really respect.

Of course, there are occasions when greng jai can be operative in the interpersonal and voluntary sense. It all depends on who is greng jai-ing whom, and why...

[Rikker]

Literally, you "fear" (เกรง) how the person will react to some action of yours, so you act in a way that you think they want you to.

This often results in the either amusing or frustrating situation where someone acts the opposite of how you want them to because they're เกรงใจ. They think they know how they should respond. Like when you offer something to someone--they will probably refuse at least once, and likely more than once. They'll probably say "เกรงใจ" ... then you're supposed to say "ไม่ต้องเกรงใจ" and then they say "no, really, I couldn't..." then you say "no, no, please, I want you to have it" ... then it goes round like that a couple more times until one party gives up.

Sometimes เกรงใจ = คิดมาก

[mangkorn]

Some people have equated "kreng jai" with common courtesy, "not wanting to impose on someone" - but that isn't correct.

I think the term for that would be "rohp guaan" - to bother, to disturb - (sorry, no Thai script here).

Among peers, instead of saying "I didn't ask you because (kreng jai)...", people often say: "mai yaak rohp guaan khun."

(And while I am truly sorry that I can't transmit Thai script from this computer, I certainly don't "kreng jai" about it )

[Thaddeus]

respect

Bingo.

It has nothing to do with respect.

When bandying words in one language about the complexities of another it is always helpful to be completely conversant in at least one of them.

Never had to doff your cap or tug your forelock then eh?

Respect, in my humble opinion , is the closest representation to Greng Jai that you will find in the English language, but you would have to be able to understand or know most, if not all, aspects of the English word to appreciate that.

[DavidHouston]

Perhaps as an adjunct (but certainly not a definitive end) to this discussion one might wish to look to see how the Royal Institute defines the term:

เกรงใจ, เกรงอกเกรงใจก. ไม่อยากจะให้ผู้อื่นรู้สึกลําบากเดือดร้อนรําคาญใจ.". . . not wanting someone else to experience difficulty, distress, or annoyance."

[Johpa]

My understanding (quite possibly wide of the mark) is that greng jai is a much wider system, a complicated hierarchy with obligations in both directions, those lower down it show deference to those above them and in turn those above them look after those below - a sort of harking back to more feudal times where a poo yai would lord it over the poo noi, but also protect them and in theory care for their well being.

What you are describing here is the classic academic description of Thai society known in the literature as the "patron-client" relationship, a social model favored by many academics in the latter half of the last century and a concept that still holds some water today although the "post-modernists" have moved into another vocabulary. And so yes, one can see the term as being a carry over from part of that older somewhat feudal system, which I believe still has some descriptive value in in the more traditional rural regions.

And to response to Thaddeus, it is indeed necessary to be conversant in a language but it is not sufficient, one also needs to understand the common usage in context of the larger social milieu. However, the fact that we may disagree over the nuances of this single word does in no way imply that either of us is somehow deficient in English, and indeed t'is beneath you to make such ridiculous inferences.

[mangkorn]

One thing's for certain: "doffing your cap," and "kreng jai," are two entirely different concepts...

[Tod Daniels]

Unless you can understand the rigid hierarchal and socio-economic stratification and extreme pressure which was put on these people in the development of thailand as a country; where everyone fits into their niche, and stands on their particular rung of the ladder, you will NEVER understand the term in english.

It has very little, if anything, to do with the english word respect, and much more to do with what I call; "coerced deference". Not saying or doing something even if it should be said or done simply because that person holds a higher standing on the proverbial ladder.

In today's society it is one of the most useless, alleged "cultural" (read mindlessly brain-washed) phenomena I have ever observed in any third world country. It is tied to the ever present and also outmoded concept of "face". Sadly both concepts are more hindrance than help in this country's quest to move up from developing third world status.

Interesting take by some of the posters. I believe the poster "Johnpa" has it closest and "Thaddeus" is the furthest from the mark.

[bannork]

Unless you can understand the rigid hierarchal and socio-economic stratification and extreme pressure which was put on these people in the development of thailand as a country; where everyone fits into their niche, and stands on their particular rung of the ladder, you will NEVER understand the term in english.

It has very little, if anything, to do with the english word respect, and much more to do with what I call; "coerced deference". Not saying or doing something even if it should be said or done simply because that person holds a higher standing on the proverbial ladder.

In today's society it is one of the most useless, alleged "cultural" (read mindlessly brain-washed) phenomena I have ever observed in any third world country. It is tied to the ever present and also outmoded concept of "face". Sadly both concepts are more hindrance than help in this country's quest to move up from developing third world status.

Interesting take by some of the posters. I believe the poster "Johnpa" has it closest and "Thaddeus" is the furthest from the mark.

I can't agree it's a useless phenomena, I've frequently heard it used in everyday conversation, one friend explaining why he did not phone late at night ( considerate), another friend responding positively to a colleague's singing ability( she was dreadful) - a white lie to save face.

And isn't that the same in most cultures? You don't tell a person you've just met that his wife looks like the back of a bus ( no 56 in Bangkok), partly to be polite, partly to prevent anyone losing face.

I agree in formal situations the term takes on significance relating to social status but it's also prevalent in everyday talk.

[mangkorn]

Tod seems to have a major chip on his shoulder about what he always calls "the diminutive inhabitants of Land-o-Thais."

One wonders why?

He's also never been to a basketball court here, apparently...

Edit: sorry, that's "Land 'O Thais." My bad.

Edited October 12, 2008 by mangkorn

[desi]

Today was my Thai lesson, so I told my teacher about this conversation (but not all obviously). Then I asked her opinion. Grabbing dictionaries, this was the consensus...

............................

On the high end (as intended), เกรงใจ is showing respect towards others.

On the low end (misuse), เกรงใจ is an act of obsequiousness.

obsequious |əbˈsēkwēəs|

obedient or attentive to an excessive or servile degree : they were served by obsequious waiters.

DERIVATIVES

obsequiously |əbˈsikwiəsli| adverb

obsequiousness |əbˈsikwiəsnəs| noun

ORIGIN late 15th cent. (not depreciatory in sense in early use): from Latin obsequiosus, from obsequium ‘compliance,’ from obsequi ‘follow, comply with.’

THE RIGHT WORD

If you want to get ahead with your boss, you might trying being obsequious, which suggests an attitude of inferiority that may or may not be genuine, but that is assumed in order to placate a superior in hopes of getting what one wants (: a “goody two shoes” whose obsequious behavior made everyone in the class cringe).

While subservient may connote similar behavior, it is more often applied to those who are genuinely subordinate or dependent and act accordingly (: a timid, subservient child who was terrified of making a mistake).

Servile is a stronger and more negative term, suggesting a cringing submissiveness (: the dog's servile obedience to her master).

Slavish, suggesting the status or attitude of a slave, is often used to describe strict adherence to a set of rules or a code of conduct (: a slavish adherence to the rules of etiquette).

And not just to seniors. เกรงใจ shows consideration / respect for all people (animals included).

In the social way, it means to not be rude or aggressive, or cause others to lose face.

Anything that would make the other person feel bad (loss of respect, loss of face), is not เกรงใจ. So, on the top of the agenda a Thai person avoids the causing of bad feelings in another.

เกรงใจ is good but you have to be wise to use it properly. As taught by Buddha, you need to be in the middle way. You need to use your wisdom / brains / common sense to judge if your เกรงใจ is too much or too little. Either could be the wrong way, so you need to know how to use it well.

Manners... if you are sitting at a lecture and your legs are crossed in the western way, it can be said that your manner is not เกรงใจ. Your manners do not show respect towards the speaker.

The issue of age... let’s say you are an older sister. As happens in Thailand, you've been used to asking favours of your younger sister since childhood as you expect her to be เกรงใจ towards you. Now you are both grown, you need to be เกรงใจ to your younger sibling. She has her own family and life and she needs to show respect to her family first, over you. So before, asking and expecting to receive a favour of a younger member of your family is accepted in Thai society. But now that you are both grown, your younger sister has other responsibilities and you must not cause her problems with your requests.

Everyone has เกรงใจ but they must know their status to know when to use it or not. It’s not just about junior / senior. As a wife, teacher, friend, child, father, mother, husband, you need to do the best you can for those around you.

She ended up saying that in order to really understand เกรงใจ, you need to study the teachings of Buddha.

............................

The west has เกรงใจ, just ask anyone in business. A business owner with a lucrative client will at times bend over backwards to keep that client. They will go to restaurants they dislike (and smile while doing so). They will stay out late entertaining instead of being home with the family. They will tell the client in great detail how lovely their kids are, even if they are uglier than all get out. They will smile at that client and tell them whatever they want to hear (that hopefully won't lose their reputation as a business person). Because if they don't, they'll upset the client and... no client... Cause and effect.

Working for a boss also brings เกรงใจ into it. You know the boss is making a huge mistake and will lose money if his sticks to his guns. Or maybe you jus tcan't stand your boss. But you don't make a big fuss because he is the boss and it's his company. Sure, you have a personal choice, you can quit. But there are bills to be paid and the economy is cacca and there is a baby on the way. So you use your common sense and stick it out until you can afford to jump ship. Thais jump ship all the time over disagreements with their bosses, so no difference there.

I'm not saying the west goes to the extreme as Thais do. I'm just saying that there is enough similar between the two to understand a connection.

Edited October 13, 2008 by desi

[MKAsok]

Good post desi. This is pretty much my understanding as well from various conversations I've had with Thais during my time here...

mk

[stonybonytony]

>>>What you are describing here is the classic academic description of Thai society known in the literature as the "patron-client" relationship, a social model >>>favored by many academics in the latter half of the last century and a concept that still holds some water today although the "post-modernists" have >>>moved into another vocabulary. (quote from Johpa above)

What do the "post-modernists" say - do they accept the same relationship but just use a different vocabulary, or do they deny the existence of the patron-client relationship, or at least see it in a different way?