Stolen Nor Sor 3!

[Sontaya]

Hi

I am British and my husband is Thai. About 7 years ago we bought 25 rai of land in Udon Thani for farming. My husband had the nor sor 3 but never upgraded it to the proper chanote title. We left the documents with his family and moved to England and let them keep all the income from the farm.

Last month my husband phoned his sister who claims that she secured a 700,000b loan from the bank against our farm.

I know nothing about British law let alone Thai law so could really use some advice!

Was she allowed to secure this loan because she managed to get hold of the nor sor 3? We didn't agree to anything or sign anything but do we have a leg to stand on??

I would be really grateful if anyone has any advice.

Thanks

Sontaya

[lannarebirth]

Legalities aside, what is your husbands reaction and what is personally prepared to do about it?

[Sontaya]

Hi

My husband is hopping mad and sick of his family treating us like this. He is prepared to do whatever it takes to sort this out, even if it means getting his sister in trouble with the police. Only issue is that we have only just bought our property in England and are drowning in mortgage so have no cash to pursue this with solicitors etc. I feel that we have lost the battle already and don't want to spend money to have this confirmed. However if there is a good chance that we can get our farm back then I guess it would be worth finding the money for. We have no proof that the farm hasn't been sold and the money split between his other 8 siblings! My Thai friend told me that by being in posession of the nor sor 3 they are seen as owning the land in Thailand regardless of the fact that it is registered in my husbands name. Sadly this is a story you hear time and after time in Thailand.

Thanks again

Sontaya

[ballbreaker]

Strongly suggest your husband contact lawyer and get some help on where he stands. You can try the following link and I'm sure they can help. They have both farang and Thai lawyers on staff. It usually doesn't cost anything for a phone consultation.

www.issanlawyers.com

Get on top of this problem right away and don't let it drag out.

[glyph]

This type of situation generally has a farang man dealing with his Thai in-laws. Now, it's a farang woman dealing with her Thai in-laws. Her husband is Thai and, if he cares to do so, can deal with it.

[sbk]

I didn't get the impression that the Thai man wasn't planning on taking care of it?

Instead, I saw someone asking a simple question regarding title ownership.

As far as I am aware, yes, as long as someone is in possession of the title deed, it doesn't seem to matter to the bank who owns it. This is why all the Thai people I know who own land would never put the deed in someone else's hands.

Suggest your husband write a letter to the bank (notarized would be best) stating that he never gave permission for the loan to be taken out on his property and that he is absolving himself of any and all debts contracted by his brother. If need be, get a lawyer as well, but it could very well be gone by now.

[Sontaya]

Hi again

Thanks for all your help, especially the link to the lawyers in Isaan. Guess my worst fears are confirmed!

Sontaya

[glyph]

"Dear, did you pack your toothbrush for the trip to Phuket?"

"I forgot."

"Dear, did you upgrade the title to our property to assure that our investment was safe, that it would remain in our names forever, and that no one could use it for improper uses?"

"I forgot."

The entire situation smells fishy...

[sbk]

I was under the impression the OP was looking for helpful advice rather than ill formed opinions based on very little knowledge of the situation.

[lannarebirth]

It is certainly imprudent to keep ones ownership documents in the keeping of someone else, but that, in itself, conveys no ownership rights. The person who got the loan would have had to commit fraud in order to represent themselves as acting for the recorded owner. I think there is a very good chance your husband can get his property back unencumbered.

Personally, I can't imagine a money lender putting themselves at risk in this fashion and I'm more inclined to think there may be some collusion between the "borrower" and the "lender" to defraud your husband of his land. In some cases we have heard here, it would not surprise me to hear the Thai spouse was in on it as well, but you certainly know best there. Anyhow, I think it's a criminal act and therefore actionable. The very best of luck to you.

[scotsman]

I have just asked my Thai wife if this is possible with a Nor Sor 3 and her answer is the same as most other posters. The sister or any other person can not borrow money or sell this land without the owners permission its a Fraudulent act. I would talk with a lawyer as soon as possible.

Regards

Scotsman

[Sontaya]

Hi again

Thanks for all the useful comments.

I can completely understand why people may think that this sounds a bit fishy. Having lived in Thailand myself for a couple of years I am not at all naive to what Thai spouses can get up to! In this case however my husband is definately not guilty! He bought the land with his own money which it took him years to save and it is very important to him. Stupidity is what he is guilty of. I always deal with everything from paying the bills to organising anything. This is the one thing that I didn't want to be involved in because I was heavily pregnant at the time. Like many Thai people, he didn't take any official advice, he asked his family what to do which is why the land simply has a nor sor 3 and not the chanote.

I now have hope that we may be able to get possession of the land again thanks to your positive comments. I will enlist the help of a lawyer and certianly not make the same mistake again. I presume the lawyer can do a land registry search to establish the status of the land and whether there are any bank charges against it.

Sontaya

[whatsoever]

Thais are very prone culturaly to taking advice from family members - especialy from older ones.

Monkey see - monkey do (as they say)

[Monkeypants]

Ok chaps, please enlighten me here,

I thought that a bank would only lend money on a chanote title deed ?

If this is the case a loan shark springs to mind.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Monkeypants

[Gary A]

I too smell a loan shark. A bank will not loan money on a nor sor 3 land paper. Something smells VERY bad here.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Gary A

[Sontaya]

Just spoke to my husband and he thinks that it is entirely possible that his sister has gone to a lone shark. The other possiblity is that his sister upgraded the title to chanote as the have been talking about "government surveys" for a few years.

[glyph]

"his sister has gone to a lone shark..."

I wouldn't care if the shark was swimming by himself. On the other hand, I'd be concerned if a loan shark was involved.

[prakhonchai nick]

Pending your contacting a lawyer, perhaps I can put your mind at ease.

A bank would not grant a loan using a land document, unless the borrower owned the land and signed. This therefore suggests a loan shark is involved. They generally do not care.

Assuming it is a loan shark who advanced the money in return for possession of the land certificate, he is in possession of land certificate that he has no legal right to. If your sister-in-law does not make the required repayments, the loan shark has no redress against the land. He has no documentation from the legal owner turning over the certificate to him.

Under the circumstances, your husband (whose land it is) once he establishes where the certificate is, should politely request it's return stating that the holder has no legal right to it's possession, and if this is unsuccessful, state that the matter will go to court, the money lender will undoubtedly lose, AND he will be responsible for ALL legal costs of both parties and the court costs. This should be enough to get the certificate back, as he will be well aware of the consequences. That then leaves your sister -in- law to make her own repayment arrangements with the lender. Not your problem!

[prakhonchai nick]

Further to my earlier post, I would advise that the maximum annual loan rate permitted by law is 28%. It is a virtual certainty that a loan shark will be charging more than this, which would invalidate any loan contract, regardless of the nature and ownership of the guarantee. Yet another reason why the shark would prefer to avoid going before the judge.

[soundman]

If the title had your husbands name on it there is no way anybody else can change the title or legally use it as a guarantee on any loan without your husbands signature or power of attorney.

What has probably happened here is the loan shark has the piece of paper in his posession as collateral against the sister's loan, however, there is no-way he can go to the land department and have the title up-graded to show a mortgage on the property without your husband's signature. Flip side of the coin - when the loan shark has the document - there is nothing you can do with the title of the land either.

If you want the title papers back, you could ask the loan shark for them, however, it is un-likely he will give them back before the loan is paid off.

The next step is asking the SIL to settle the loan so you can get the papers back. If she refuses you have a moral dilemma to sort out because the next step will be a visit to the police station, filing charges of some sort of fraud and obtaing property/cash by deception.

If it ever got to court, the court would order the loan shark to give the title back, or order the land department to issue a duplicate document.

You could try asking the police to retrieve the document for you, however, once again I believe the loan shark would not hand it over to a simple request from the police because he loses all power over the loan of 700k.

IMO SIL has done the dirty & to take it further is going to split the family - your husband has to decide what he values more.

Best of luck,

Soundman.

[monty]

One of the serious weaknesses in the Thai system dealing with any paperwork, be it registering cars, transferring land, taking out loans etc, is that everything can be done using a power of attorney, along with a signed copy of an ID card (or passport in case of foreigner).

They need a gazillion copies for everything, so much so that a lot of Thai people have umpteen copies of their ID card and house books on hand, often just somewhere in a drawer or cabinet.

Combine this with the fact that very few Thai people use a signature the way we use in the West, but rather just write their name, leaves the system widely open for abuse.

Get your hands on a copy of their papers (even copies of copies of copies) and just write their name on it, along with a land title deed, car registration book etc and you have the property transferred in your name without an eyebrow lifted by any official.

Many Thai people, especially upcountry, are unbeknownst to the fact that crossing the copies and writing the purpose of that copy on it (so it can't ever be used fro something else is common sense and should be done at all times.

Ditto for foreigners signing copies of their passports. Cross them, sign them, and write for example "for transfer of ownership of motorbike with license nr XX 1234".

If this is what happened in the OP's case, the only recourse for Sontaya's husband would be to prove he was abroad and even then it would be possible the paperwork has been sent back and forth bay mail/courier. Done a lot by Thai people living abroad in need of some official dealings back home...

Not sure how hard it would be in Thailand to prove a signature is forged

[lannarebirth]

If the title had your husbands name on it there is no way anybody else can change the title or legally use it as a guarantee on any loan without your husbands signature or power of attorney.

What has probably happened here is the loan shark has the piece of paper in his posession as collateral against the sister's loan, however, there is no-way he can go to the land department and have the title up-graded to show a mortgage on the property without your husband's signature. Flip side of the coin - when the loan shark has the document - there is nothing you can do with the title of the land either.

If you want the title papers back, you could ask the loan shark for them, however, it is un-likely he will give them back before the loan is paid off.

The next step is asking the SIL to settle the loan so you can get the papers back. If she refuses you have a moral dilemma to sort out because the next step will be a visit to the police station, filing charges of some sort of fraud and obtaing property/cash by deception.

If it ever got to court, the court would order the loan shark to give the title back, or order the land department to issue a duplicate document.

You could try asking the police to retrieve the document for you, however, once again I believe the loan shark would not hand it over to a simple request from the police because he loses all power over the loan of 700k.

IMO SIL has done the dirty & to take it further is going to split the family - your husband has to decide what he values more.

Best of luck,

Soundman.

I agree with all that, but isn't there a third choice? Couldn't the OP's husband simply apply for a duplicate copy of the title now, citing it as being lost or stolen? Wouldn't that then make worthless any previously issued title? Just wondering.

[JetsetBkk]

...Many Thai people, especially upcountry, are unbeknownst to the fact that crossing the copies and writing the purpose of that copy on it (so it can't ever be used fro something else is common sense and should be done at all times....

Excellent point, monty, and explains why my previous landlady wrote (in Thai) "For ADSL service only" across the copy of her ID card and Tabien Baan when I wanted to get the service from ToT.

It also explains why the father of my current g/f has a dispute with his (old) friend who used a copy of my g/f's fathers ID card to get a telephone line installed and ran up a 5,000 baht bill which went to my g/f's father. He has - rightly - refused to pay. So have I.

[Livinginexile]

I showed your post to my Thai wife who has a great deal of experience with Nor Sor 3 land.

Below is a brief explination of this type of title:

Nor Sor 3.

Is an instrument certifying the use of land issued by the Government to the proprietor of land not a possessory title, ie it is confirmed by law that a person holding Nor Sor 3 has the legal right to possess the land. This land title can be used as a legal document or to use the benefit of the land as an owner. Nor Sor 3 is a floating map with no parcel points, It is issued for a specific plot of land and is not connected to other land plots. This causes problems in verifying the land areas. Any legal acts must be publicized for 30 days.

One can use Nor Sor 3 to borrow money from the bank, my wife has done it personally in the past.

She also told me that it would be very very difficult to do this if you was not the registered owner.

Borrowing from a loan shark would be even harder because by the very nature of their business they would not lend (especially an amount like 700k) without having absolute certainty their capital was secure.

Therefore the title must have been:

1) In his sisters name.

2) Your husband must have passed on all certified documents allowing her to borrow money on his behalf

To borrow money using this title as colateral would require certified and notorised documents signed by your husband allowing your sister to use this document. The same types of declarations you would have needed to sponsor your husband to the UK. Very complicated.

Unless we are missing something here, your husband must have been involved in someway. One cannot just march into a bank with a land title that is in someone elses name and borrow money.

It's a family problem. Your husband would know something he's not telling you.

You really do need to hire a Thai based lawyer and follow the paper trail.

I wish you ll the best. Be sure to watch your UK assets untill you get to the bottom of this.

[donx]

I agree with lannarebirth here. Soundman's post is good, but it should be easy for the OP's husband to go to the land office and request a replacement land title stating that the original document was lost or stolen.

Livinginexile's post is also good, but I'm not as convinced as he and his wife are that the husband is in on the deception. I have a sister-in-law that has borrowed money using any means available. Some of these loan sharks are willing to take almost anything as collateral. Then again, I think it is more likely that the sister-in-law never used the land title at all for a loan, but is coming up with this story to get her brother to pay off some other debt she has. Once he pays her the money, she simply returns the title to her brother.

In any of these cases, my advice would be for the OP's husband to request a replacement land title.

[soundman]

The only problem with requesting a "lost or stolen" title document replacement is that if you do this you will have to make a declaration at the police station and then if the original surfaces with an explanation that you knew where it was all along you are in deep shit yourself for making a false declaration.

Even if you are prepared to accept the consequences, I do not believe this is the best path to go down unless you are left with no other choice.

Monty's comment on "forged" ID card and tabien bahn copies is 100% on the money. My wife keeps a brief case full of copies of tabien bahn, rup rohng nung seu, butt prachachon etc. just to attend to all the daily errands.

Last year an ex-employee who had taken a job working in direct sales for Singer company used a copy of my wife's ID card to provide guaranty (bragun dtua) to a number of credit pay by the month sales which were also to ficticious people where he received the goods and promptly sold them second hand to third parties for cash. He racked up about 500k in ficticious sales before the company switched onto what was happening. Needless to say the guy is in deep poo poo.

Keep an eye on those documents. We always date and summarise ours hen we sign them.

Cheers,

Soundman.

[donx]

soundman,

I'm not doubting you, I'm just surprized that someone would have to make a declaration at the police station. I can see this being required if you claim that the title was stolen, but would you have to if you claim it was lost or was destroyed in a fire?

[Farma]

donx

I’ve found with other official documents (wedding divorce certificates) a police loss report is required before a replacement will be issued. It’s a simple procedure and only takes a few minutes at the police station. I presume the same would apply for a lost or burnt land document.

On presentation of the police loss report at the relevant office they will issue an officially stamped photocopy of the original paperwork. In my experience they wouldn’t issue a replacement without the police report.

[ThaiLawOnline]

I'm Sebastian from Isaan Lawyers.

You can contact us free of charge, no problem. We will try to help if we can.

We will need a copy of all relevant documents to give you proper legal advice.

These can be scanned, faxed or sent by mail. Emails are so efficient! (mail takes time, fax is often unclear...email is fast.)

That means copy of the title deed, and contracts if you have any (I doubt it!) and give us a better summary, with dates, amounts, etc.

Ex: My husband bought the land on XX February 200X for XXX baht. We learned XX months ago that XXXXXXX.

Dates and amounts can be important for jurisdiction, prescription, etc.

There are many ways to secure a loan, like a mortgage, sale with rights of redemption, etc.

Your husband must go to the land department in your locality to get a UP TO DATE copy of his title deed.

For confidentiality reasons it's better to contact us via email. Not on a forum. And I don't come here often, someone sent me the link. You will find our email address at the link above.

Regards,

S.