Us Citizens Taking Natural Thai Kids To Us: Watchout!

[dave_boo]

dave_boo, we obviously come from 2 different Americas.

Apparently.

The visit to the US Consulate in Bangkok reminds me of the America I left. Self grandiose pomposity by pseudo ex-military wannabes? No I haven't renounced my citizenship, but I did leave for good shortly after the day GWB took office. Why is it that no one in the US seems to know the history of the Bush family? Their "mini-mistakes" have been lining the pockets of the ultra rich for almost 70 years; and Americans still aren't paying on the principle, only on the interest. Watch what happens in this latest Bush scenario. 50 years from now, my grandaughter will be paying taxes to a country that has to pay interest to the grandkids of the heads of Halliburton. Oh, VP Dick Cheney is an active VP of Halliburton too, right? Hello.

I'd be willing to bet that those "pseudo ex-military wannabes" (surprised you didn't call them Gestapo) are actually former military. What have you done in service of your country? Served in the military? Peace Corp? Volunteered?

Then again, I also left my father's house the day I turned 18, worked days in construction and went to school at night, that for 10 years. I did not get any assistance from anywhere, just formed a lot of opinions about pompous imperialistic post modern ultra conservative 'reality TV watching' blurt monkeys. Ever watch "Mad Men", see how it is done and how easy it is? FOX channel loves those kind of people.

Your lack of ability to for a coherent counter-argument and degeneration into childish name calling is a clear indicator of your mental health and maturity level.

Microsoft: Try inventing something from air, everybody that has never done it then looks at the long term production afterward, finds flaws, then sneers and smacks about how lacking it is. Just try it. (Bruce Schneier help me here)

What has Microsoft invented "from air"? Everything they've done was previously done, and some of it was a direct rip off with their implementation often being much poorer. For someone who is so critical, it's interesting that you are so defensive when it comes to your apparent former employee. Especially when they've done as bad of things as they have.

My lawyer buddy does Thai family law, I never said he was my tax consultant.

Checked; nope, nobody said you had. And curiously, you're still going to him for American legal advice.

I am an old guy. My family means everything to me. I do not trust the American world of the last 8 years, it is a muddle of lies, deceit, make believe, and 'no-bid contracts'. No bid contracts? (Wow, let's screw everything us so we have to come back and fix it) I came from a world of having to do the best you could to win a contract for anything, the only "no-contract" deals I ever heard of came from the wells of the mafia. The Bush Doctrine is skewed, not my view of it.

Hate to burst your bubble, but all governments are full of "lies, deceit, make believe". If you live in Thailand, take a look around. They've got a corner on the market also. Where the US ranks is open to debate. And in regards to the no bid contracts; the ACO (Army Accounting Office) awards the contracts. LOGCAP (LOgistics Civilian Augmentation Program) III was simply a continuation of LOGCAP I & II. Halliburton had to bid on LOGCAP I(1991), they beat out 36 other companies. Interestingly, in 1997, under Clinton, they lost the contract. However, Pentagon kept them in the Balkans. Furthermore, it wasn't technically a no bid contract, but rather Halliburton bid so stupendously low (cost plus 1% and a maximum performance fee of 2%) that nobody else could compete.

Oh, you just try all the stuff you recommend here, it does not work that way. Any red flag is a red flag. You obviously don't make enough money to have had to grasp the gravity of the situation of being red flagged, nor do your kids have to deal with it either.

Unfortunately for your argument, I have been flagged. But I wasn't stupid enough to leave a trail for them to follow. You have my sympathies for not being as fortunate.

America is NOT heaven people. If you make over a certain amount of money, but less than the super rich, you are constantly in fear of your own livelihood. Tax consultants screw this up all the time. Red flag from the IRS with your bacon and eggs this morning? Again, it's called fear. I just don't want my daughter and her kids to be a part of that. Selfish? Just as I don't want her touching a hot wood burning stove either. Hmm. Educated parenting perhaps, not selfish.

That's it for me, I gotta get back to my 4th day of nausea at the US Consulate. Thanks to everyone for helping form realistic opinions... and reminding me.

[Gumballl]

Wow, finally a post on TV worth reading!

Btw, children born overseas to US parents are not automatically granted US citizenship. Once a Report of Child Born Abroad application has been completed... and accepted... is the child considered a US citizen. When the child turns 18 years old, he/she is free to denounce the US citizenship. And for that there is Canada, or in the OP's case, Thailand.

[gk10002000]

One of the posters got it right. A child is NOT NOT NOT automatically a US citizen just because the child's father IS a US citizen. Several criteria have to be met. Now, I can't testify as to what the US consulate is telling you, but it is definitely most likely an incorrect interpretation of two different scenarios.

Here is a summary from Wikipedia with some references.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_citizenship

Here are two excerpts:

*************************************************

(1)

Through birth abroad to one United States citizen

For persons born on or after November 14, 1986, a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true:[4]

One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born;

The citizen parent lived at least 5 years in the United States before his or her child's birth; and

At least 2 of these 5 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.

Here is another excerpt that I suspect the Consulate may be applying to you:

(2)

Child Citizenship Act of 2000

Effective February 27, 2001, the Child Citizenship Act of 2000 provided that a non-U.S. citizen child (aged under 18) with a U.S. citizen parent, and in the custody of that parent, automatically acquired U.S. citizenship. To be eligible, a child must meet the definition of “child” for naturalization purposes under immigration law, and must also meet the following requirements:

The child has at least one United States citizen parent (by birth or naturalization)

The child is under 18 years of age

The child is currently residing permanently in the United States in the legal and physical custody of the United States citizen parent

The child has been admitted to the United States as a lawful permanent resident or has been adjusted to this status

An adopted child must also meet the requirements applicable to the particular provision under which they qualified for admission as an adopted child under immigration law.

**********

It sounds like the counselate is combining parts of these two laws and doing so incorrectly.

[thesunset75]

It seem to me that people with large amount afraid/avoide to pay tax, but poor people have to work their @$$ off to make a live.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

To the OP : you said you are old,

May I suggest that get Report of Birth Abroad and give your child to get dual citizenship ?

Get Social Security Number untill she is 18 then she can decide where / what she will be. (does children under 18 have to pay tax ?)

Please plan for kid's future but not too worry about govt, tax cause you dont know what would happen or sorry to say she will have a hard life when you are gone.

Just share my experience, and thank you my ex husband he prepared things for my son, other wise we will have a hard life in Thailand by now.

I apologize if some of my texts may offended you.

Edited October 17, 2008 by thesunset75

[jchen]

It seem to me that people with large amount afraid/avoide to pay tax, but poor people have to work their @$ off to make a live.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

To the OP : you said you are old,

May I suggest that get Report of Birth Abroad and give your child to get dual citizenship ?

Get Social Security Number untill she is 18 then she can decide where / what she will be. (does children under 18 have to pay tax ?)

Please plan for kid's future but not too worry about govt, tax cause you dont know what would happen or sorry to say she will have a hard life when you are gone.

Just share my experience, and thank you my ex husband he prepared things for my son, other wise we will have a hard life in Thailand by now.

I apologize if some of my texts may offended you.

@ Blam:

This sounds like the most economically correct version of reality in this thread. I would suggest you read what thesunset75 says here very carefully> real life. I understand that you have your own experiences, and those are driving you away from what we in Singapore call "The United Snakes", but think about how random things are going to be post Bush. He may have been the worst president you have ever had, he may have in fact destroyed your country.

But:

You may be very sorry if you do not allow your daughter to have the chance to be someone she could not possibly be without US citizenship.

[iainiain101]

Could your father not just visit you in Thailand this Christmas?

[qualtrough]

Not sure if that is really the case or not, but why would you not want her to have dual citizenship? She can always renounce one or the other when she is of legal age. Seems to me you are depriving her of something that might be an advantage at some later date. Why not let her make that decision?

[chuckd]

Wonder if Blam still feels so strongly about the Bush tax years after seeing the start of the Obama years with a Democratic congress.

Stimulus package - 787 Billion

Proposed annual budget - 410 Billion (the largest annual budget EVER)

Ten year Health Care - 634 Billion

...and this guy has been in office only 37 days. We have lots to look forward to.

As the every eloquent Sean Penn said at the recent Academy Awards though...it is nice to have some "elegance" in the White House. Al Qaeda has a lot of respect for "elegance" as well. LOL

Oh, for the record, I haven't been back to the US since 1991. My choice. I was busy running a military defense contract in the Middle East all those years. I'm part of the horrible military/industrial complex that so bedeviled the Clinton administration and, apparantly, so infuriates our good friend Blam.

I obtained a US passport for my daughter at the Embassy in BKK. Also my choice. If she doesn't want it, she can denounce it when she is 18.

He seems to have been very myopic in 2008. Wonder how I missed this silly thread when it was running hot???

[jdinasia]

because you were busy leaving out the real budgets under the Bush "war" years whilst doing your calculations?

[Scott]

Something is truly amiss in this thread. If the OP's daughter is an American Citizen, she does not need a visa. The Thai wife would need a visa, but the daughter would not.

To date, I have never heard of a national of a country being issued a visa to their own country!

[chuckd]

because you were busy leaving out the real budgets under the Bush "war" years whilst doing your calculations?

Care to point me in the right direction to get your version of the "real" budgets you mention.

Oh, by the way, my computer has moveon.org and the Huffington Report blocked so I am unable to access them.

[samran]

Something is truly amiss in this thread. If the OP's daughter is an American Citizen, she does not need a visa. The Thai wife would need a visa, but the daughter would not.

To date, I have never heard of a national of a country being issued a visa to their own country!

The issue is not about being let in/not let in.

I read on the state departments thread a while back that if you are a US citizen, you must enter the US on a US passport. The government will not grant visa's to people who are already US citzens to basically force them to travel on a US passport when going to the US.

It is a similar situation with Australia, where I have dual Thai/Aust citizenship.

I can not enter Australia on a foreign passport - full stop. They will not grant me a visa in my foreign passport (everyone needs a visa to enter Australia).

[Maizefarmer]

... and that is quite correct: if you are a USA dual citizen you have to enter the USA as a USA citizen - doesn't matter what the 2nd citizenship is. And, just in case one does decide to go in on their 2nd citizrnship, they will in any event not be able to exercise it legally for any reason while in the USA. Its for good reason - several good reasons!

The OP has a "bee in his bonnet" about USA citizenship.

Thats fine, it his right - and thats why exactly why Uncle same has a procedure in place for those who for whatever reason don't wish to take up USA citizenship, to exercise that right of denial - once they get old enough to understand the consequences and pros/cons. And by the same token - that same law is tied up with legislations that prevents parents from stopping their children exercise that right.

Till then, quite why he is so objectionable to her having USA citizenship is hard to comprehend. Should something happen to him and mom tomorrow, USA citizenship for his child is a gift that opens unheard of doors that millions of folk (Asians and otherwise) will never be able to enjoy.

We take too much for granted in this society - I find the OP's attitude (however much he has the right to exercise it) narrow minded. I would advise him to at least leave the door open for his daughter to exercise her democratic right of choice - a right millions of folk the world over can only ever dream of.

[NaiGreg]

Bad parenting.

[pampal]

Depending on your net worth and income, even if you renounce US Citizenship, you may still be liable for taxes. Up to 10 years of tax liability even after renunciation of your citizenship.

"Amended IRC 877 eliminates the tax avoidance criteria for imposition

of the expatriation tax on certain types of income for 10 years

following expatriation, and creates objective criteria to impose the

tax on individuals with an average income tax liability of $124,000

for the 5 prior years or a net worth of $2,000,000 on the date of

expatriation. In addition, it requires individuals to certify to the

IRS that they have satisfied all federal tax requirements for the 5

years prior to expatriation and requires annual information reporting

for each taxable year during which an individual is subject to the

rules of IRC 877. Further, expatriated individuals will be subject to

U.S. tax on their worldwide income for any of the 10 years following

expatriation in which they are present in the U.S. for more than 30

days, or 60 days in the case of individuals working in the U.S. for an

unrelated employer. Finally, even if they do not meet the monetary

thresholds for imposition of the IRC 877 expatriation tax, the new law

provides that individuals will continue to be treated as U.S. citizens

or long-term residents for U.S. tax purposes until they have notified

the Secretary of the Department of State or of Homeland Security of

expatriation or termination of residency."

If a person has not paid his or her taxes promptly and accurately for

the past five years, he or she would still be subject to the same

rules that wealthy people are as listed above.

"If all federal tax requirements have not been satisfied for the 5

years prior to expatriation, even if the individual does not meet the

monetary thresholds in IRC 877, the individual will be subject to the

IRC 877 expatriation tax provisions."

[Scott]

With regard to the citizenship issue, the OP's position is murky. If he has not somehow declared her a U.S. citizen--either directly or indirectly, then presenting her Thai passport and a request for a visa should be relatively easy. In that case, they would either approve or reject a visa. If, however, he is asserting that she is a US citizen and should get a visa because of this, then it would appear that the Embassy is within their right to make him establish this fact.

It gets complicated legally to allow someone who is eligible for citizenship into the country on a visa, if that declaration has been made.

[Arkady]

I find it odd that the OP wants to take his daughter home on annual visits and introduce her to her relatives over there but try to prevent her from having US citizenship. If the OP fell under a songthaew, it might then become impossible for the girl to get a US visa and that part of her life would be cut off from her. It might also be harder for her to claim her US citizenship. Unless the girl is going to inherit a sizeable private income, it would probably be a while before she earns enough to pay US taxes living abroad. Why not let her be a dual national and decide for herself when she is older, leaving open the options of studying and working in the US without hassle, not to mention visa free travel to Canada, European countries, Japan and many other parts of the world? It is only really ever going to an issue for her, if she really has no interest in ever living in the US and doesn't care about not having visa free travel to other countries and earns a large salary in Thailand or somewhere else outside the US. Then she could still set about renouncing US citizenship, if she feels the same way as the OP. While the US may not be heaven, there are considerable advantages in having a Western passport of any type.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Arkady

[thaihome]

With regard to the citizenship issue, the OP's position is murky. If he has not somehow declared her a U.S. citizen--either directly or indirectly, then presenting her Thai passport and a request for a visa should be relatively easy. In that case, they would either approve or reject a visa. If, however, he is asserting that she is a US citizen and should get a visa because of this, then it would appear that the Embassy is within their right to make him establish this fact.

It gets complicated legally to allow someone who is eligible for citizenship into the country on a visa, if that declaration has been made.

The consulate would know she is a US citizen (she not just eligible, she is a citizen) simply by the fact the the OP is one and is her father. All that would be plain from the visa application. It seemed to me that the consulate staff was confused as to why she needed the visa and why she did not have a US passport.

This is a rather old thread and all the issues have been gone over many times, not worth going through it again.

TH

[DirectorIntegrityLegal]

The issue somewhat circles around the doctrine of consular absolutism.

"Consular absolutism (also known as consular nonreviewability) is the longstanding judicial doctrine that the courts will not consider visa refusals based on a factual decision of an American consular officer."

It is also a policy issue in that the Embassy has made the decision that they want dual citizens to use their US Passport to enter the country.

Also, technically nationality is not automatically conferred to the child of a US Citizen at birth:

For persons born on or after November 14, 1986, a person is a U.S. citizen if all of the following are true

1. One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born;
   
2. The citizen parent lived at least 5 years in the United States before his or her child's birth;
   
3. A minimum of 2 of these 5 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.
   

Different rules apply for persons born abroad to one U.S. citizen before November 14, 1986. United States law on this subject changed multiple times throughout the twentieth century, and the law is applicable as it existed at the time of the individual's birth.

Hope some of this was helpful,

Ben Hart

Managing Director

Integrity Legal

1-877-231-7533

Edited March 2, 2009 by DirectorIntegrityLegal

[thaihome]

No doubt a person is not automatically a US citizen unless they meet one of the criteria you mentioned. Nevertheless, once they meet one of the criteria, they are US citizen, which was my point. There is no applying for citizenship, you either are one or not. This is not to say a person at some point will need to prove they are a citizen, and in this case the proof would be the US Citizen born abroad document, but that is not applying for citizenship.

TH