Where Is Gold Going In This Market

[Jayman]

to put things into perspective for those who do not master basic arithmetics. the total gold holdings of Greece have an approximate value of less than USD 5 billion. the nominal value of restructured Greek debt was USD 227 billion.

today, dear children, we will try to calculate the percentage of potential gold collateral some wishful thinkers and dreamers had in mind, not taking into account Greek public debt that was not restructured.

-no Joey, 5 billion do not represent 5% of 227 billion!

-who knows the answer... Hank?

-sorry Hank, 20% is way off!

-well... anybody???

And this stupid condescending post proves what exactly? That since the current market value of gold is only a fraction of the debt that it's impossible that it was pledged as part of the collateral on the debt?

Maybe you need to put down the math books and pick up some basic books on logic Lt.

[Naam]

And this stupid condescending post proves what exactly? That since the current market value of gold is only a fraction of the debt that it's impossible that it was pledged as part of the collateral on the debt?

Maybe you need to put down the math books and pick up some basic books on logic Lt.

here's a stupid claim referring to gold as collateral posted by somebody who possesses a wealth of no idea but keeps on flogging a dead horse diversion:

It's certainly much easier for the big banks to take a "haircut" on the fiat paper they are owed when they are getting gold in return...

let the record show that gold was not and is not pledged as collateral vs. any Greek debt. period! no more bla-bla!

[Naam]

I'm not even sure what your argument is; one minute your accepting that this current system is deeply flawed and the next your denouncing ideas of any other, the next your saying how you hold a stack of physical in case of collapse while advocating endless roles of this same dice.

-yes, i agree that the current system is deeply flawed.

-yes, i denounce ideas which -based on my logic and knowledge- cannot work and i reserve the right to have an opinion as well as to voice that opinion.

-yes, i hold, not a "stack" but a quantity of physical of substantial value.

-that i own gold and even bought recently gold does not mean i have to join the various and often quite ridiculous "Hallelujah Amen" and "Gloom&Doom ante portas" and "Gold x-thousand Dollars per ounce any time from now!" choirs.

-i have explained the reasons of my advocating against wet dreams several times. here we go again:

for the benefit of those TV-members who are looking for information i consider it my duty to point out flaws, incorrect facts and/or assumptions as well as wishy-washy or outright ridiculous claims.

disclaimer: i (actually "we") hold a substantial amount of physical, paper and 'mining' gold and after the 2009 mother load of investment opportunities (which are gone now) i see fair value in holding a certain percentage of gold because we are facing an uncertain future. but the afore-mentioned does not prevent that i keep on acting as 'advocatus diaboli' in this thread as a counterweight of goldbugs who float on cloud nine.

Naam post #3206 - 2010-11-14 03:01:53

[mccw]

I'm not even sure what your argument is; one minute your accepting that this current system is deeply flawed and the next your denouncing ideas of any other, the next your saying how you hold a stack of physical in case of collapse while advocating endless roles of this same dice.

-yes, i agree that the current system is deeply flawed.

-yes, i denounce ideas which -based on my logic and knowledge- cannot work and i reserve the right to have an opinion as well as to voice that opinion.

-yes, i hold, not a "stack" but a quantity of physical of substantial value.

-that i own gold and even bought recently gold does not mean i have to join the various and often quite ridiculous "Hallelujah Amen" and "Gloom&Doom ante portas" and "Gold x-thousand Dollars per ounce any time from now!" choirs.

-i have explained the reasons of my advocating against wet dreams several times. here we go again:

for the benefit of those TV-members who are looking for information i consider it my duty to point out flaws, incorrect facts and/or assumptions as well as wishy-washy or outright ridiculous claims.

disclaimer: i (actually "we") hold a substantial amount of physical, paper and 'mining' gold and after the 2009 mother load of investment opportunities (which are gone now) i see fair value in holding a certain percentage of gold because we are facing an uncertain future. but the afore-mentioned does not prevent that i keep on acting as 'advocatus diaboli' in this thread as a counterweight of goldbugs who float on cloud nine.

Naam post #3206 - 2010-11-14 03:01:53

No wet dreams

More nightmares; or thinking how what otherwise would be a nightmare could turn in to something which could work out ok.

What's your thoughts of a future system then?

Or just more of your ostrich nothings; yawn

[Naam]

No wet dreams

More nightmares; or thinking how what otherwise would be a nightmare could turn in to something which could work out ok.

What's your thoughts of a future system then?

Or just more of your ostrich nothings; yawn

i don't waste too many thoughts on a potential future system as i don't waste many thoughts what the temperature on a remote island located in the South Pacific on december 17th, 2012 at GMT 0835hrs will be.

the possibilities what kind of future systems will evolve and then prevail are virtually infinite and might differ depending on the area and time frame. but based on recent observations i consider the chances very high that the present system will prevail for many years to come. inspite of this opinion i have carried out a number of asset shifting, diversification and various other preparations to protect capital, income and therefore my life style, all of course within the range of my financial and personal capabilities. only time will tell whether i am right or wrong.

in my [not so] humble view it is highly likely that betting the ranch on one single racehorse or keeping all eggs in one basket (as the hardcore goldbugs suggest) will lead to failure.

[letitbe]

different people have different reasons for holding gold in different forms. in 2010 i have been doing some trading in paper gold and gold mine shares for profit but stopped about a year ago. the physical gold we are holding are for a completely different reason, namely to compensate / bridge a potential temporary global suspension of all banking/financial procedures which, by the way, we missed by a hair's breadth in october 2008 and which for several months scared the living beejesus out of me.

these are my, respectively our, reasons to hold a certain percentage of our assets in gold. whether the value of our gold will be tomorrow or any time soon $500 or $2,000 per ounce is totally irrelevant for us. not irrelevant would be if gold is priced at $5,000 within the coming months because that would mean that the value of our other income producing liquid assets, if not discarded or converted in time, will take a heavy nosedive and some of them would not be income producing anymore.

this is my personal view, i can't speak for others.

absolutely and reason I have converted 20% of our assets to gold and silver and reason ive mostly sold all our old SLV and GLD stuff and put into a more safe form of gold. The problem I find is whats best way to hold gold since IMO its no good putting it in a bank safe deposit box or letting one of dealers hold it for you. Their is no 100% safe way to hold it. Id be interested to know how others hold their gold and silver.

Anyone buying gold to try and make money and not just a form of insurance is IMO nuts

[flying]

The problem I find is whats best way to hold gold since IMO its no good putting it in a bank safe deposit box or letting one of dealers hold it for you. Their is no 100% safe way to hold it. Id be interested to know how others hold their gold and silver.

I have been a builder all my life so never had any problem with storage.

I think anyone with a little thought & imagination can do the same.

Even Dr Naam had some great ideas regarding silver

Edited May 6, 2012 by flying

[letitbe]

The problem I find is whats best way to hold gold since IMO its no good putting it in a bank safe deposit box or letting one of dealers hold it for you. Their is no 100% safe way to hold it. Id be interested to know how others hold their gold and silver.

I have been a builder all my life so never had any problem with storage.

I think anyone with a little thought & imagination can do the same.

Even Dr Naam had some great ideas regarding silver

ok obviously I can have built a very safe place but thats not the point. If it all goes tits up very badly its no good having it all close to hand since theirs possible problems of getting it out if need be from country your in when it might be quite possible made illegal to hold gold and other problems. Im not super rich and so only own the house I live in and hold around 200,000 us$ of gold and silver. So ive risked keeping around 40% of that close to hand in a very safe place but nothing is 100% safe either from accidental discovery. Ive even taken precaution of giving a different address to our main gold supplier since here you need to show ID and give an address to buy more than a few thousand us$ worth.

So I think it wise to keep 60% in other countries or ways. Ive been looking at gold money and others and even at some of largest banks facilities to hold gold but that seems best one can do. Im also probably going to get a non bank safe deposit box in another country such as Hong Kong to hold maybe 20-30% of it. Im sure others have considered this problem and it would be useful for most to hear their ideas and experiences.

[Naam]

ok obviously I can have built a very safe place but thats not the point. If it all goes tits up very badly its no good having it all close to hand since theirs possible problems of getting it out if need be from country your in when it might be quite possible made illegal to hold gold and other problems. Im not super rich and so only own the house I live in and hold around 200,000 us$ of gold and silver. So ive risked keeping around 40% of that close to hand in a very safe place but nothing is 100% safe either from accidental discovery. Ive even taken precaution of giving a different address to our main gold supplier since here you need to show ID and give an address to buy more than a few thousand us$ worth.

So I think it wise to keep 60% in other countries or ways. Ive been looking at gold money and others and even at some of largest banks facilities to hold gold but that seems best one can do. Im also probably going to get a non bank safe deposit box in another country such as Hong Kong to hold maybe 20-30% of it. Im sure others have considered this problem and it would be useful for most to hear their ideas and experiences.

all your arguments are very valid Letitbe! Flying and me discussed the problem of storing physical gold a long time ago in a joking as well as a rational way. but "one size fits all" does not exist, no matter whether the value is 100k or several millions. i agree with Flying that it is not a problem to store gold "at home", even big values, because of its extremely high value/volume ratio. but what if one is forced to move? spreading physical gold in other countries has its disadvantages too. if your gold is stored in country "a" and "b", both x-hours of flights away, how will you access it in case you need it fast in country "c" where you live?

[flying]

Yes agree with Naam

You can only do the best you can for *your* situation.

What he states about different countries is true.

In your case letitbe you state you have one home.

So of course you would probably keep the lions share there.

I personally do not go in for storage companies or gold money etc.

It kind of defeats some of the premise for holding physical IMO

As for accidental discovery it would never happen in my case.

But as Naam pointed out it can be a problem when changing countries & I am presently dealing

with just that.

[Naam]

But as Naam pointed out it can be a problem when changing countries & I am presently dealing

with just that.

imagine you live in Thailand and need the gold that you keep in a Hong Kong locker. even if there are no problems accessing your stash would you, when you arrive at Suvarnaswampy, say "Sawasdee khrap Khun Customsomchaipornthip... i bringed meself some bullion for me family in Nakhon Nowhere and cos it's the law i hereby declare the value being ha ran Baht, give or take roy pan Baht."

[Jayman]

I store my gold/silver pirate style as per my needs.

I have never ever not once in 20 years been asked to show ANY id when purchasing ANY amount of physical gold or silver from either US based or Thai based dealers. As for getting out the country with gold... I have never been stopped wearing it. You can wear quite a bit of gold on your body and customs does not even bat an eye.

Also, for those concerned about travelling with large amounts of gold let me mention that there are many forms of gold you can buy that are actually currency and marked as such. If you have a 1 oz gold eagle from the US mint it is marked as $50. The value is printed on the coin as $50. This is irregardless of the current price of spot gold. You could be carrying 199 oz of eagles and they would be valued as $9,950 which is under the amount required to be reported in the US (of course adjust for your situation). As far as the true value of 199 oz of eagles at today's rate you are looking at $331,136usd. Of course, gold bars are valued at spot so they are not as good for traveling.

Also, your needs will dictate what is the best way to handle things. If you spend your time in Thailand then having gold that is easily liquidated in Thailand is best (ie Thai gold). The Thais won't give you good value for 99.999% coins as they require money for processing to be used as 96.5 thai gold. Silver is almost more trouble than it's worth in Thailand so very little reason to have it here.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Jayman

[Naam]

You could be carrying 199 oz of eagles and they would be valued as $9,950 which is under the amount required to be reported in the US..

another ridiculous fairy tale which is nevertheless spread and believed by those who are too lazy to do their homework and do not understand the expression "instruments with negotiable financial value".

[Jayman]

You could be carrying 199 oz of eagles and they would be valued as $9,950 which is under the amount required to be reported in the US..

another ridiculous fairy tale which is nevertheless spread and believed by those who are too lazy to do their homework and do not understand the expression "instruments with negotiable financial value".

More utter nonsense from The Great Lt Naam.

http://en.wikipedia....able_instrument

A government minted coin is legal tender and is valued at it's face value by the government.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Jayman

[Naam]

U.S. Mint: "Produced from gold mined in the United States, American Eagles are imprinted with their gold content and legal tender "face" value. An American Eagle's value is based on the market price of its metal content, plus a small premium to cover coinage and distribution."

http://www.usmint.gov/mint_programs/american_eagles/?action=american_eagle_gold

Bailiff! arrest the plaintiff. reason: contempt of court.

next case!

[Jayman]

U.S. Mint: "Produced from gold mined in the United States, American Eagles are imprinted with their gold content and legal tender "face" value. An American Eagle's value is based on the market price of its metal content, plus a small premium to cover coinage and distribution."

http://www.usmint.go...ican_eagle_gold

Bailiff! arrest the plaintiff. reason: contempt of court.

next case!

So the legal tender face value printed on the coin is used for what exactly Lt?

So you mean to tell me that if I bring a gold eagle through the airport then customs will take the time to go online to get current spot rate and then apply it with the premium to the value of the gold content? Maybe they will call in a PCGS rep to grade the coins on the spot since the higher the grade the more the coin is worth to a collector. History has shown they use the face value printed on the coin since it is the "legal value" of the coin. Or is the legal value not to be used for legal purposes?

Taking your sillyness to the next level.. what if you have a bag of junk silver coins (pre 1965 1/2 dollars, quarters, and dimes). Do you think those minted coins will be valued for their metal content or the legal tender value printed on the coin?

Edited May 6, 2012 by Jayman

[Jayman]

When you travel thru the airport, keep your coins with you in your carry-on bag. At no time should you have intentions of hiding anything from a TSA agent, rather just the opposite. Armed with a clear understanding of the law and your willingness to allow a private screening if asked, you will not have problem traveling with your gold.

When traveling between the United States and Canada, recognized legal tender gold coins such as the US Buffalo and Eagle, the Canadian Maple Leaf, the Austrian Philharmonic, or the Australian Kangaroo are valued for their legal tender face value, not the intrinsic gold value they sell for. The One ounce American Eagle and Buffalo carry a $50 face value, so does the Canadian Maple Leaf and Australian Kangaroo. And the Austrian Philharmonic bears a 150 Euro denomination. This means that in any of these countries, if you were crazy enough, you could spend your coins for their respective face value amounts. It also means that for the purpose of travel between the US and Canada, the face value of the coin is the value that needs to be considered when determining if you are carrying more than the reportable threshold limit of $10,000. Don't forget about the exchange rate, if you were carrying enough gold it could matter.

Interestingly, in every instance, the US government considers these coins as legal tender money, except when you sell them. At that point a metamorphosis occurs and your legal tender money becomes a collectable right in front of your eyes. Hypocritically, any profits from the sale are taxed at the 28% collectable rate, not the more favorable capital gains rate that profits from the sale of the currency of realm qualify for.

For the most part the purity of the gold is irrelevant. Canadian citizens pay a VAT on the purchase of gold if it is not 24k. This has always been reason enough for Canadian citizens to purchase the 24K Maple Leafs and not the South African Krugerrands that most Canadians purchased prior to the establishment of the Royal Canadian Mint in 1976. Bye the way, Kruggerands have no legal tender face value, so when traveling with them they will be valued only by their intrinsic gold value.

[Naam]

would any kind soul explain to Mr Jayman the meaning of the word "value" in context with the U.S. mint's definition "An American Eagle's value is based on the market price of its metal content" and U.S. customs regulation "instruments with negotiable financial value".

i wonder what part of the word "value" is difficult to understand?

[Naam]

well, if forum bla-bla from members of a goldbug forum supersedes official publications of the U.S. mint and U.S. customs, so be it!

When you travel thru the airport, keep your coins with you in your carry-on bag.

https://www.kitcomm....hp?t-71229.html

[Jayman]

well, if forum bla-bla from members of a goldbug forum supersedes official publications of the U.S. mint and U.S. customs, so be it!

When you travel thru the airport, keep your coins with you in your carry-on bag.

https://www.kitcomm....hp?t-71229.html

yes.. blah blah blah.. math is fun.. blah blah blah... look at the docs Naam posted from the US Customs... blah blah blah... oh yeah.. he didn't

http://minerals.usgs...gold/300798.pdf

What part of the words "face value" are hard for you to understand? They couldn't have made any easier for you Naam. They say face value is $50. Guess that still might be too hard for you to understand even after you posted it from the US mints own website.

And while we are talking "value". Would you like to tell us what the US government values 1oz of gold to be? Try $42.22 an oz. How is that for the meaning of value.

Would someone please explain to Naam the difference between price and value.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Jayman

[Jayman]

http://minerals.usgs...gold/300798.pdf

The price of a fine suit of men’s clothes can be used to

show anyone who is not familiar with the price history of gold

just how very cheap gold is today. With an ounce of gold, a

man could buy a fine suit of clothes in the time of

Shakespeare, in that of Beethoven and Jefferson, and in the

Depression of the 1930’s. In fact, this statement was still true

in the 1980’s, but not in the late 1990’s. The suit standard

now implies a gold price of perhaps $1,000 per troy ounce.

Today, a really good man’s suit can easily cost 4 ounces of

gold, and that is without a vest, which once was standard

(Forbes, 1998).

Following amendments to the Par Value Modification Act

contained in Public Law 93-110, enacted on September 21,

1973, the dollar’s par value was devalued by 10%, to

0.829848 Special Drawing Rights (a unit of account in the

IMF). This fixed the official price of gold at $42.22 per

ounce effective at 12:01 a.m., October 18, 1973. That price

remains unchanged.

Gold occupies a unique position among the world’s

commodities; it is an internationally traded commodity and a

long-established, universally acceptable storehouse of value,

considered by many people worldwide to be superior to fiat

paper currencies with fleeting longevity or fluctuating

unpredictable value. It has been said many times that gold is

“forever”; its high intrinsic and monetary value usually

dictates that, in time, most of it will be recycled to serve

again. Because of its historically high value, much of the gold

mined throughout history is still in circulation in one form or

another (Lucas, 1993, p. 505).

As a consequence of the dual roles played by gold, as

commodity and as money, its price cannot be viewed as one

would view the price of other goods or services in a free

market. Gold also cannot be viewed strictly from the

standpoint of the U.S. market alone because international

political and economic events that may influence the market

for gold as a commodity may be outweighed by developments

perceived to favor gold as a medium of exchange.

More blah blah blah from the US government.

Get out your "not this shit again" picture there Lt.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Jayman

[flying]

A government minted coin is legal tender and is valued at it's face value by the government.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And while we are talking "value". Would you like to tell us what the US government values 1oz of gold to be? Try $42.22 an oz. How is that for the meaning of value.

I remember a few years back in 2009 a man named Robert Kahre tried to pay his workers in

Gold Eagles. Although it was more of a scheme to defraud than a simple travel at face value

situation

The government/IRS did not accept it as face value for declared income

http://www.lasvegass...kahre-tax-frau/

He is facing 296 years in jail + 14 million in fines.

His secretary is facing 23 years + 500K in fines

Also his accountant with 53 years + 2.75 million in fines

Kahre was only recently sentenced in 2012 & did get 15 years

http://www.lasvegass...ax-fraud-schem/

It is not surprising though that I have read the IRS will accept face value for payment of taxes though

While it is true that the US govt. values their gold at the old standard I believe it is because they put it on the books at

that standard & *claim* it has always sat there in Fort Knox

But also remember Fort Knox does not *supposedly* hold 8000 tons of Gold Eagles

They *supposedly* hold gold bars.

As to the whole claim face value on a large quantity while traveling.....I have not tried nor heard of anyone that has.

I would not want to be the tester of it. I am sure you can walk through with 6 or so coins as I know folks who have.

Anything more like I said I have no real experience. I know what should be.... is nice to think about but what is reality? Could be entirely another story. I do not want to be the one to try & find out. Just because the US once valued coins at xxx price does not

mean other countries will today accept that as declared *negotiable financial value* Most countries know full well todays value of gold & silver.

Like I said I have heard the IRS accepts *payment* with coins of silver or gold at face value....who wouldn't eh

Edited May 6, 2012 by flying

[Jayman]

You could be carrying 199 oz of eagles and they would be valued as $9,950 which is under the amount required to be reported in the US..

another ridiculous fairy tale which is nevertheless spread and believed by those who are too lazy to do their homework and do not understand the expression "instruments with negotiable financial value".

Lets just be clear that legal tender are not "instruments with negotiable financial value".

Checks are "instruments with negotiable financial value"

Bonds are "instruments with negotiable financial value"

Even a receipt for gold could be considered a "instruments with negotiable financial value"

Since the $50 gold American Eagle is legal tender who's legal tender value of $50 is printed on the government minted coin. It is legal tender and not "instruments with negotiable financial value"

[Jayman]

A government minted coin is legal tender and is valued at it's face value by the government.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And while we are talking "value". Would you like to tell us what the US government values 1oz of gold to be? Try $42.22 an oz. How is that for the meaning of value.

I remember a few years back in 2009 a man named Robert Kahre tried to pay his workers in

Gold Eagles. Although it was more of a scheme to defraud than a simple travel at face value

situation

The government/IRS did not accept it as face value for declared income

http://www.lasvegass...kahre-tax-frau/

He is facing 296 years in jail + 14 million in fines.

His secretary is facing 23 years + 500K in fines

Also his accountant with 53 years + 2.75 million in fines

Kahre was only recently sentenced in 2012 & did get 15 years

http://www.lasvegass...ax-fraud-schem/

It is not surprising though that I have read the IRS will accept face value for payment of taxes though

While it is true that the US govt. values their gold at the old standard I believe it is because they put it on the books at

that standard & *claim* it has always sat there in Fort Knox

But also remember Fort Knox does not *supposedly* hold 8000 tons of Gold Eagles

They *supposedly* hold gold bars.

As to the whole claim face value on a large quantity while traveling.....I have not tried nor heard of anyone that has.

I would not want to be the tester of it. I am sure you can walk through with 6 or so coins as I know folks who have.

Anything more like I said I have no real experience. I know what should be.... is nice to think about but what is reality be entirely

another story. I do not want to be the one to try & find out. Just because the US once valued coins at xxx price does not

mean other countries will today accept that as declared *value* Most countries know full well todays value of gold & silver.

Like I said I have heard the IRS accepts *payment* with coins of silver or gold at face value....who wouldn't eh

I have walked through US customs in SFO and a return trip to the US and was stopped by customs for inspection. I was traveling with my wife and child and we were stopped more for an agricultural check. After going through out bags and throwing away many of my wife's thai food she was carrying he asked me how much money we were carrying. I was honest with him and told him $9000 in $100 bills and 3 x 1oz gold coins (2 eagles and a buffalo). I was told that was considered as $9150 and under then $10,000 required for me to fill out the IRS reporting forms. I was also told that the $10,000 reporting amount was on the entire travelling party (all 3 of us) and was NOT $10,000 per person since we were travelling as a family. That was the one thing that totally shocked me. In any case we were also wearing gold that would have put the value well over $10,000 if they were adding up the value of the thai gold chains we had on. None the less I was told we were under the $10,000 reporting requirement and after throwing away some of my wife's food we were on our way.

I have never tried to bring 199 1oz eagles through customs so I can't speak on that specifically. I can tell you that the US minted coins say $50 legal tender on them and that is what the Customs officer went by.

[Jayman]

I remember a few years back in 2009 a man named Robert Kahre tried to pay his workers in

Gold Eagles. Although it was more of a scheme to defraud than a simple travel at face value

situation

It's not so cut and dry. When you are holding them in your hand they have a legal tender value of $50. As soon as you spend them (or sell them) they take on a different role and the profit must be declared and taxes paid accordingly. At least in the US that's how it works.

►The IRS considers gold a “collectible” and will tax your capital gains at a 28% rate. This designation includes all forms of gold (other than jewelry), such as...

• • All denominations of gold bullion coins and numismatic/rare coins, gold bars, and gold wafers
  • ETFs like GLD, SLV, etc. (closed-end funds have different rules; see below)
  • Any electronic form of gold like GoldMoney and Bullion Vault
  • Any “paper” or certificate forms of gold, such as Perth Mint Certificates and EverBank accounts
  • All forms of pool gold, rounds, and commemorative coins
  

Edited May 6, 2012 by Jayman

[flying]

I remember a few years back in 2009 a man named Robert Kahre tried to pay his workers in

Gold Eagles. Although it was more of a scheme to defraud than a simple travel at face value

situation

It's not so cut and dry. When you are holding them in your hand they have a legal tender value of $50. As soon as you spend them (or sell them) they take on a different role and the profit must be declared and taxes paid accordingly. At least in the US that's how it works.

Yes & like I said I have no 1st hand experience. It would be nice if someone tried & we could read the result.

But also we must remember leaving the US is one thing.....entering another country is another.

At that point it is the customs agent that will decide & if he has one interpretation & we have another I tend to think it is his that will stand.

For instance............entering Canada?

The Canadian Border Services Agency has this to say: "Non-circulated currency ... must be declared. In accordance with United Nations guidelines ... currency to be declared includes non-monetary gold, ... and coins not in circulation. These items are regarded as commodities rather than financial items. They are to be valued, based on the transaction value of the printed paper or stamped metal, rather than their face value".

Edited May 6, 2012 by flying

[Jayman]

Every country has it's own rules on such things naturally. My experience was only while ENTERING the US rather than leaving it. I have never been stopped an asked entering any other country so my personal experiences on how it's handled is limited to the US.

I would like to add that the difference between a circulated and un-circulated coin is not so easily determined. Just having the coins in a bag or your pocket in contact with each other is enough that they won't get an un-circulated grade. It would be different if they are "proof" coins which are 100% undeniably un-circulated. Of course, once you take a proof coin out of the plastic and handle it then now it is losing that status of being un-circulated.

Most of my gold/silver coins are circulated coins.

Edited May 6, 2012 by Jayman

[Naam]

I was also told that the $10,000 reporting amount was on the entire travelling party (all 3 of us) and was NOT $10,000 per person since we were travelling as a family.

a dangerous trap for Germans, French, Italians and some others who want to repatriate their black money from Switzerland, travelling with the whole family and are not aware of the "creative" interpretation (€10,000 per person) of their relevant taxmen.

p.s. since Monsieur Hollande won yesterdays elections in France with slogans such as "tax the rich 75% of their income" well-off French citizens will be gladly paying 35% EU tax which is anonymously transferred to their taxman (applies to other EU states including UK too!) instead of repatriating their cash to France. but that does not rule out a CD or DVD surfacing with their names on it.

pps. i expect that in less than a decade there won't be any hiding places left for tax evaders. even places like Singapore and Hong Kong will cave in and comply with OECD regulations. their only way out is change of residence to a more tax amicable country assuming that their home countries do not adopt the IRS rule "who the EFF cares where you live?"

[flying]

a dangerous trap for Germans, French, Italians and some others who want to repatriate their black money from Switzerland, travelling with the whole family and are not aware of the "creative" interpretation (€10,000 per person) of their relevant taxmen.

Not just Germany as the wife & I were told this once when exiting the USA

We each had xxxx amount & when the goon asked my wife she said each or the both of us combined?

He said combined

[gregb]

Edit: Ignore the part about Robert Khare. Just saw flying's post above which is a more complete accounting. But my conversation with the Thai customs officer still has value for this discussion.

would any kind soul explain to Mr Jayman the meaning of the word "value" in context with the U.S. mint's definition "An American Eagle's value is based on the market price of its metal content" and U.S. customs regulation "instruments with negotiable financial value".

i wonder what part of the word "value" is difficult to understand?

Actually Naam, based on the IRS case in Nevada his viewpoint is not necessarily incorrect. A gold eagle can in fact be viewed as being worth the face value on the coin, but don't expect to get away with that interpretation without being hauled into court. And in the particular case which set the precedent (the guy was paying his employees as independent contractors in gold coins at face value to stay under the reporting limits) the first time it went to court the IRS lost.

But that didn't stop them. They kept coming back. The second time it went to court, they were better prepared, and this time they won, as they pointed out that while the person in question was claiming they were worth the face value in one situation, he had them listed as a company asset at their bullion value. Fail. (Google Robert Kahre for a complete story.)

So it is possible to do what Mr. Jayman is suggesting, but if you want to stay completely above board, it is ultimately self defeating. Yes, you can claim they are worth face value, but only if you treat them as being worth face value in every circumstance and have a sympathetic jury.

As for Thai customs, the officer I spoke to laughed at that ridiculous suggestion. Your attempt to bring them through customs and claim that they were worth face value would be met with "OK. Let me exchange those into Baht for you right here." You wouldn't be allowed to leave without either admitting they were worth the bullion value, or converting them into Baht at face value. If you really believe they are worth face value, prove it.

So while the idea might sound great on an internet forum, there has not been a single person to date who has actually gotten away with using it. Be my guest however if you have an army of lawyers and think you can beat the government.

Edited May 7, 2012 by gregb