หาก And ถ้า

[tgeezer]

Tgeezer,

If I may summarise:

Richard W: Sometimes in English people say 'if' when they really mean 'when'. Does this happen in Thai with ถ้า/หาก too?

Me: In certain cases, yes. At least for ถ้า.

I don't understand where you're coming from in the comments after that. If you're not interested in Richard's question, just ignore it. If you want more context, just ask.

I am coming from the standpoint of trying to understand the meaning of ถ้าเหงาเมื่อไหร่ having found that the RID defines เมือไร เมื่อไหร่ เมื่อใด as 1. a word 2. used to ask questions concerning time. At this point I looked up the meaning in my student's dictionary and find that we must be at a transition point where เมื่อไร retains its status as a word but has become a คำวิเศษณ์ meaning เวลาใด ขณะใด which you must admit is strange because that is exactly what you would expect the two, noun เมื่อ modified by ใด to mean ( a time undefined) so maybe the next edition it will be modified. The questioning tone (for questions) is not available in Thai. Try เมื่อไรเขาจะมา means either 'when he comes' or 'when will he come' not very definitive especially when you could say ขณะที่เขาจะมา and now presumeably, เขาจะมาในขณะไหน

I don't think that I need more context, until your post included the sarcastic possibility; 'if you come home; eat this' made no sense whatsoever to me. We dont all speak English in the same way, evident by the fact that few people understand me, so I am asking that we pull away from the discussion of English which locks us in to English syntax, in favour of the meaning of Thai.

When I asked the question; whether we were sure that educated Thais who don't speak English would understand? it was because I dont know the answer.

[aanon]

Most (all?) of the question words also have another function, similar to เมื่อไหร่:

ใคร: some/anybody (eg. ฉันไม่มีใคร)

ที่ไหน: some/anywhere (eg. ฉันไม่เคยเห็นที่ไหนมาก่อน)

เมื่อไหร่: any time

อะไร: some/any thing

I don't have time to check dictionaries right now. Perhaps you can see if and how these secondary meanings are laid out in the RID.

[Rikker]

I'd agree with aanon and yoot that Thai uses ถ้า colloquially in a way similar to the sense of English "if" that Richard W asked about. I'd also add that แล้ว commonly appears after the verb in this kind of usage. So it's literally "if you X" but effectively "when you X".

ถ้าตื่นแล้วช่วยเอาราวตากผ้าเข้าบ้านด้วย

"When you wake up, can you please bring in the clothes rack?"

And as yoot mentions, using เมื่อไหร่ can indicate impatience or sarcasm.

ถ้าตื่นเมื่อไหร่ช่วยเอาราวตากผ้าเข้าบ้านด้วย

"Whenever you get around to waking up, bring in the clothes rack."

[joopjip]

I think the full word is ถ้าหาก which means if but people shorten it to ถ้า or หาก which can both be used for the same meaning..but ถ้า is more widely used..being Thai I don't even remember the last time I said หาก..It's more like an ancient funny way of saying ถ้า if you ask me which is why it's used more in songs and poems.

[tgeezer]

I'd agree with aanon and yoot that Thai uses ถ้า colloquially in a way similar to the sense of English "if" that Richard W asked about. I'd also add that แล้ว commonly appears after the verb in this kind of usage. So it's literally "if you X" but effectively "when you X".

ถ้าตื่นแล้วช่วยเอาราวตากผ้าเข้าบ้านด้วย

"When you wake up, can you please bring in the clothes rack?"

And as yoot mentions, using เมื่อไหร่ can indicate impatience or sarcasm.

ถ้าตื่นเมื่อไหร่ช่วยเอาราวตากผ้าเข้าบ้านด้วย

"Whenever you get around to waking up, bring in the clothes rack."

Whenever I see ก็ I also always think แล้ว before trying to work out another meaning.

context questions: Did anyone assume that เราตากผ้า meant a drying rack with clothes on it, and why?

[tgeezer]

Most (all?) of the question words also have another function, similar to เมื่อไหร่:

ใคร: some/anybody (eg. ฉันไม่มีใคร)

ที่ไหน: some/anywhere (eg. ฉันไม่เคยเห็นที่ไหนมาก่อน)

เมื่อไหร่: any time

อะไร: some/any thing

I don't have time to check dictionaries right now. Perhaps you can see if and how these secondary meanings are laid out in the RID.

Thanks for giving me the chance to find another anomoly. ที่ไหน also seems to be a single word with a meaning of modifier plus noun but unlike เมื่อไร is given a type 'noun' and an additional meaning , described as a word which ใช้ในข้อความคาดคะเนว่าคงจะไม่เป็นเช่นนั้นเช่นนี้ มีความหมายว่า ไฉน ฉันได อย่างได In some way of which you are not sure? would that be somehow? (The example is interesting เขาก็เห็นว่าที่ไหนเราจะได้ which normally would mean 'they already know that where' , but doesn't. maybe 'they already know that somehow we will do it'.?

I think that I do not have enough background in the language to be able to use the RID effectively because much of it is not relevent to how the langauge is used. I mean, to put a word in which has no catagory is confusing because then I don't know how to use it or where to put it. I think that I shall continue along these lines but take the RID with a pinch of salt in future.

Edited August 26, 2009 by tgeezer