Child Rights, Custody, Abduction

[kconor]

For case files: regarding Childrens' Rights and Abduction of Children of mixed parentage,

T-land is NOT a signer of the United Nations Hague Accord for Childrens Rights.

T-Lands' National Human Rights Commision has NO AUTHORITY for legal action.

T-Land Police policy is extra-judicial, disputed children custody is ALWAYS given to the

thai side and usually no report-record will be made

T-Land court usually judicates in favor of the Thai side, especially if Male.

T-Land is in diplomatic collusion-complicity with foreign Embassies which, although they

know of Human/Children Rights Abuses, will NOT comment, will NOT intercede, will NOT take action for fair justice; the claim that Embassies take no sides is untrue,

.....silence, is collusion ....and a breech of Oath of Office.

T-Land Ampurs-marriage offices usually will decide divorce and cutody of children, extra-judicially; if custody become the issue, children will remain with thai side and case goes

to thai court and thai judical 'authority'. Nothing good comes of this.

T-Land Lawyers, a mum to Police and to Court, polite, and ineffective.

Cases usually are complex, foreigner will also be defrauded, so no money for court or lawyer; Embassy, being a diplomatic-guest, will never assist nor protect the victimized

citizen. Foreigner can also have been defrauded in business or defrauded out of Banking assets [to benefit a Thai, to protect a Thai, or to protect the Bank from litigation]

Thai authority side will look for every reason to 'fault' the fahlang. Embassy

authority will look for every reason to say it is a 'civil' case, and stay silent. It the abducted child is registered as a Embassy citizen...how can it stay silent?

The function of Embassies, is to 'cooperate' with the thai authority, not to place blame

and responsibility on them, and to grant 20Millon in military aid and 2-5 million to temple

beautification....not to aid Citizen Victims of T-land injustice and indifference.

[kconor]

What is the Mentality of T-land authority on Children's Rights?

The half-thai child, is given over [by thai police or thai amphur] to the Thai mother

...thai's help each other, thai's protect thai's, thai's do not hurt other thai's.....

the Thai mother, gains 'custody' and control of the child, under thai law, is then free to control, educate, beat=punish, and isolate the child...to be...as the thai mother wants.

{my own daughter was beaten everyday in thai school by the thai teacher...as the

girl spoke better english...and this embarassed the thai teacher....}

The thai mother can have legal, unjudicated [police supported] control of the child until

they are age 14, the age of maturity and self-determination...meaning isolation for 14 years, sanctioned by Thai 'authority'. Foreign Embassies may not like it, but being

diplomatic guests, will not intercede to protect the child from this abusive victimization.

Thai Police will also take a draconian, down the middle attitude. ie. if the mother of the

child is an illegal-alien from Cambodia, and the father, a famous UK piano player, the

thai Police will take no report nor take no action against either. Why? Because, the

mother from cambodia should be deported, but that would fault police; the UK father

should be arrested for aiding an illegal, but that would leave no $$$ for the wife and for

the child; so, no report, no action, no fault of police, case files [never made] void.

As for the usual alternative: get my Thai friend t help me with thai police, to translate and to make a police report. The Thai Police, avoid such reports as it makes police and thailand look 'evil', and the thai friend will not want to talk to the police as he could be

probed for how much $$$ can be paid for encouragement or the police may take action

because the thai friend didn't report for military servive.

Edited October 23, 2008 by kconor

[matcube]

Welcome to the forum. Interesting - and quite strong - views. What made you decide to drop this bomb out of the blue? You seem very informed, either for many years working in these matters, or for personal experience. Anticipating some dissenting replies and more questions from other readers, I encourage you to dwell (factually) a bit more on the subject.

[Mario2008]

Nice rant about your personal experiences.

Thailand is a member of the UN convention on the rights of the child.

http://www.nhrc.or.th/menu_content.php?doc_id=179

[silentnine]

so waht would happen if say a farang father took his child from his country of origin . and brought him to thailand .

would the thai authoritues support the other farang parent in gettign that child back if there was a court order made for return in another country.

asking not as i want to do this. i alrady have my 9 year son from england living here with me . however i went through the UK courts costing huge amounts of money to get permsion to remove him from the juristiction of the UK .

this makes it sound like i could of just got on a plane and waved . lol

[Mario2008]

If you have joint custody, no problem. If the other parent has sole custody, it is kidnapping.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Mario2008

[silentnine]

If you have joint custody, no problem. If the other parent has sole custody, it is kidnapping.

i think you got my question wrong . i'm aware that if a parent without leave of the court removes his/her child from there own country agianst the will of the other parent for over 28 days then that is child abduction / kidnapping

the question for the op as he seemed so knowledgable was what would happen to them as it seems that thaialnd is not part of the hague convention and would avoid getting involved.

[Mario2008]

If there is joint costudy, Thailand would not get involved. In the case the other parent has sole custody it could be considered kidnapping, regardless of the hague convention. I understand it would be an offence under Thai law also if the other parent has sole custody. Next to criminal charges one could also file a cival suit, as ones human rights are being violated. (The right to family live).

A Thai court will in general respect the decissions of a foreign court. There are cases, even in cases where the Hague convention was signed by both countries, where a decision of a foreign court is ignored. (in the case where sending back the child to the parent who has custody is clearly not in the interest of the child).

[kconor]

Welcome to the forum. Interesting - and quite strong - views. What made you decide to drop this bomb out of the blue? You seem very informed, either for many years working in these matters, or for personal experience. Anticipating some dissenting replies and more questions from other readers, I encourage you to dwell (factually) a bit more on the subject.

[Goinghomesoon]

Also the point about custody generally being given to the Thai side is just plain wrong. There are several foreign parents on this forum who have obtained full or partial custody legally in Thailand.

Also as Thailand is party to the Hague Convention on Child Abduction, so for nationals of some countries, like Australia, there is sometimes the opportunity to invoke this international treaty.

[kconor]

Bold, forceful...yes. All true.

Damage to children and to me father, is one year already. Thailand may on/off committees...but Thailand HAS NOT SIGNED THE UN HAGUE ACCORD on Childrens Rights,

US Dept State, US Embassy, Thai National Human Rights Commission...have all said this.

International

/childrens rights and USA Fathers Rights..groups have both backed

off on intervention due to this. A thai can abduct and go to Thailand and a Thai can abduct inside of T-land..it is considered 'normal' A foreigner abducting out of T-land or

into T-land...will be arrested...as it is thai police policy 'to aid thai's and to protect thai's from fahlang' and 'we do not care that that mother, has a history of mental-emotional-personality disorders and has attacked you and has beaten the children and

burned them and broken their teeth...children are always happy with mummy' Klongton

Police. 'we will not make a police report for you as you must be trying to hurt her legally'. and 'do not worry about the police report she made against you,,as the police do not take this seriously [and the thai court will take it how???]

And what about when the US Embassy called, you lied or the girl at the embassy got

the story twisted around to 'the fahlang was a bad guy and was beating the thai'????

So the manger of ACS due to policy of silence and due to the thai police would not advance my case.???

My son was taken Oct 5 by the 'wife-mother' going mental, throughing everything,

and grabbing him [not a first time] She returned 7 days later, for the daugher...but

came armed and protected by a mafia guy from Buddapest..who centered himself in the

middle of my room...he is about 6'6...rambo...while the mother trussed up the girl and picked her up..she was screaming to stay....A call to Klongton Police resulted in zero.

I have not seen them in one year, she intents to hold them captive until they are 14

thai legal age,...then 'you can send them to school in America...I will not let you use them.

I asked Rep Nancy Pelosi to query this and all that came up to this...and the US Embassy said, 'he has never asked us for help and we do not know about this'.

Perjury???

I also asked the US Embassy, FBI, and ICE-immigration-border police to take some

action or at least action on the causatives [i sponsored a thai to USA who ripped off

all of the USA and Thai assets with Kasikorn Thai]...neither would do anythings as

'we like thai police do not like admitting error...and the policy is to stay friends with

our thai partners' [partners in crime???]

interrim ref: spirit6x8 blog...search

Back in 1992...I wanted to do a medical consultancy...USA-thai...and sponsored

and 'educated' thai ...he, ripped off my USA bank account, credit cards, and my KTB

accounts; KTB went silent and froze the account for 4 years...until the thai returned

and then informed me 'yesterday he returned from america..and the acount is now empty. One month before KTB offered to make a FAKE bankbook to present to thai

immigration to secure a marriage visa [a little crime for KTB]

My thai wife, an english teacher petitioned her boss,...director of drug police in charge

of yes-live, no-shoot,...to ask KTB to settle privately...also as 2nd chair is Pol.Gen Pow

Sarasin...whose son was in drug police. next day, 2 days before xmas...I have decided

not to help you and am canceling your job with us. Enough to make her a little more

crazy perhaps?? So assets gone, children gone, citizen rights gone. all a great story.

And some wonder why this little story explodes all by its own content??

And some also wonder why I do not vote for a country that turns its back on its citizens

and its elder crime victims...but, the Embassy wants you to pay for your repatriation back to USA...it is what we can do to help you with what we can?

ps. as I have actively attempted to get a reply, any reply out of US Ambassador Eric

John, the GW Bush appointee..is near invisible recently.

advice???

1. do not go to thai police for anything

2. do not go to thai government with a problem they caused

3. do not request 'guest' Embassy to assist you, they will not

4. do not request home office or home government, 'it is outside our soverienty'

5. do not trust the sympathetic thai, who will 'call you tommorrow to help you'

6. do not trust USA-International police: FBI, ICE, IRS...they do not like admitting that

they too make mistakes.

[kconor]

I do appreciate the MEMBERs are answering, in any way. However, DO a google on

Child abduction, Thailand or Child rights, Thailand [Commission of Human Rights, AMLO]

...and the reply will be the US Embasssy, the British Embassy...and both will inform

Thailand, has NOT signed the UN Hague accord and YOU cannot reabduct, and the

Embassy will not intervene nor assist. and custody....may go outside of mother/father

...and FOREIGN COURT ORDERS will be ignored..no one tells thai courts or police what

to do.....

I do not need to put 'force' into this outcome....it was already there.

Also, yes it is sometimes possible to win custody...if you have $$$ for the thai lawyer

and the case is only civil... mine is also criminal against a big bank and against thai

police and the US Embassy...and I have met a thai lawyer who will take the case.

travel.state.gov/family/abduction/country/country_528.html

DISCLAIMER: The information in this flyer relating to the legal requirements of specific foreign countries is provided for general information only. Questions involving interpretation of specific foreign laws should be addressed to foreign legal counsel.

GENERAL INFORMATION: Parental Kidnapping is not a crime in Thailand and Thai authorities will not issue a warrant or become involved should one parent take a child without the other parent's authorization. The Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction cannot be invoked if a child is taken from the United States to Thailand, or vice versa, by one parent against the wishes of the other parent or in violation of a U.S. custody order.

CHILD CUSTODY: Under Thai law, the question of child custody is addressed in Book Five of the Thai Civil and Commercial Code under the general headings Termination of Marriage and Rights and Duties of Parent and Child. The relevant portions of the law follow in full:

Section 1520.

In case of divorce by mutual consent, the agreement for the exercise of parental power over each of the children shall be made in writing. In the absence of such agreement or (if) an agreement thereon cannot be reached, the matter shall be decided by the court.

In case of divorce by judgment of the court, the parental power belongs to the party in whose favor the judgment is given, unless it is decided by the court that the parental power shall belong to the other party, or that a third person shall be the guardian.

Section 1521.

If it appears that the guardian as provided in Section 1520 behaves himself or herself improperly or there is a change of circumstances after the appointment, the court has the power, after taking into consideration the happiness and interest of the child, to give an order appointing a new guardian.

Although the parental power belongs to one party, the other has the right to continue such personal relation with the child as may be reasonable according to the circumstances.

Section 1522.

In the case of divorce by mutual consent, an arrangement shall be made and contained in the agreement of divorce as to who, both of the spouses or either spouse, will contribute to the maintenance of the children and how much is the contribution. In case of divorce by judgment of the court or in case the agreement of divorce contains no provisions concerning the maintenance of the children, the court shall determine it.

Section 1566.

A child is subject to parental power as long as he is not sui juris. The parental power is exercised by the father or the mother in any of the following cases:

(1) The father or mother is dead;

(2) It is uncertain whether the father or the mother is living or dead;

(3) The father or the mother has been adjudged incompetent or quasi-incompetent;

(4) The father or the mother is placed in a hospital by reason of mental infirmity;

(5) The parental power has been granted to the father or the mother by an order of the court.

The parental power is exercised by the mother, when the child was born out of wedlock and has not yet been legitimated by the father according to Section 1547.

Section 1567.

A person exercising parental power has the right:

(1) to determine the child's place of residence

(2) to punish the child in a reasonable manner for disciplinary purposes;

(3) to require the child to do such work as may be reasonable to his ability and condition in life,

(4) to demand the return of the child from any person who unlawfully detains him.

As shown above, the question of child custody under Thai law is addressed mainly in the context of termination of marriage. It is therefore difficult to speculate about what kind of stance the Thai courts would take toward a custody decision made in the absence of the termination of a marriage, e.g., in the event of a legal separation.

As a matter of law, foreigners are treated on an equal basis with Thai citizens in matters relating to child custody. Thai law makes no distinction between the rights of the father and mother on issues of child custody.

ENFORCEMENT OF FOREIGN ORDERS: Foreign orders (including U.S. custody orders) are not enforced/enforceable in Thailand. American citizens who travel to Thailand place themselves under the jurisdiction of Thai courts. If a taking parent chooses to remain in Thailand with a child or leave a child behind in Thailand, the U.S. Embassy cannot force either the taking parent or the Thai Government to return the child to the United States. American citizens planning a trip to Thailand with dual national children should bear this in mind.

S. Department of State

SA-29, 4th Floor

2201 C Street, N.W.

Washington, D.C. 20520-2818

PASSPORT APPLICATIONS FOR MINORS: A person applying for a U.S. passport for a child under 16 must demonstrate that both parents or legal guardians consent to the issuance of a passport to the child or that the applying parent has sole authority to obtain the passport. This law covers passport applications made at domestic U.S. passport agencies in the United States and at U.S. consular offices abroad. Exceptions to this requirement may be made in special family circumstances or exigent circumstance necessitating the immediate travel of the child. The purpose of the new requirement that both parents' consent be demonstrated is to lessen the possibility that a U.S. passport might be used in the course of an international parental child abduction.

CHILDREN'S PASSPORT ISSUANCE ALERT PROGRAM: Separate from the two-parent signature requirement for U.S. passport issuance, parents may also request that their children's names be entered in the U.S. passport name-check system, also know as Children's Passport Issuance Alert Program (CPIAP). A parent or legal guardian can be notified by the Department of State's Office of Children's Issues before a passport is issued to his/her minor child. The parent, legal guardian, or the court of competent jurisdiction must submit a written request for entry of a child's name into CPIAP to the Office of Children's Issues. The CPIAP also effectuates denial of passport issuance if appropriate court orders are on file with the Office of Children's Issues. Although this system can be used to alert a parent or court when an application for a U.S. passport has been executed on behalf of a minor, it cannot be used to track the use of a passport that has already been issued. If there is a possibility that your child has another nationality, you may want to contact the appropriate foreign embassy or consulate directly to inquire about the possibility of denial of that country's passport. There is no requirement that foreign embassies adhere to U.S. regulations regarding issuance and denial of passports.

[kconor]

It is good to be praised and also to be errored: but, check with google on Thai Human Rights Commission and with the United Nations committees that Thailand has been on: answer:

Thailand has voiced for rights, but has not signed for childrens rights under the United Nations

as it is 'intrusion into thai sovereinty'. The current Director of THRC...will tell you directly,

'we have not signed for that one' Signing for some things does not mean coverage for all,

and for children, if they cannot sign it, the should lose voting rights in UN. What happens

to children and to elders...among the worst things.

As for the claim, thai's love children, yes it obediant and quiet. My daughter had a thai, with

her mind on buying a loto ticket, step on her foot, bloody....breaking her sandal....a request for

at least an appology and a new sandal....' she is a child, I do not have to be sorry for her, she

should have waied me for getting under my foot'

[Goinghomesoon]

Well KConor my post was based on information provided recently by Australian Attorney General's department. They said that Thailand signed up to the Hague Convention on Child Abduction in the past year or so and that the contact agency here is the Thai AttorneyGeneral Department, International Affairs Section.

[Mario2008]

The Thai National Human Rights Commision is also of the opinion that Thailand is party to the Convention of The Rights of the Child, signed in New York. Maybe OP is confused with the treaty on child abduction, which was I believe indeed signed in The Hague.

[su-b-doo]

so waht would happen if say a farang father took his child from his country of origin . and brought him to thailand .

would the thai authoritues support the other farang parent in gettign that child back if there was a court order made for return in another country.

asking not as i want to do this. i alrady have my 9 year son from england living here with me . however i went through the UK courts costing huge amounts of money to get permsion to remove him from the juristiction of the UK .

this makes it sound like i could of just got on a plane and waved . lol

I took my son to the UK and my Ex wife came to the UK and I had no option to let him return. I did offer to return as long as she would give me unsupervised visit over weekends; she refused. This cost a pile of money and she even paid the Thai police to give me problems, for which they wanted money to close the case; lucky the Appeal court gave back 50% custody, with three weekends every month. When I reported the issue to the court about the Thai police, they said they will deal with it; and that was the case closed. My Ex took this to the Supreme Court and there it will be for years; however I have been there and filed every unreasonable act by my ex. I have now compiled a complete case myself; this includes evidence to prove: My ex, her UK boyfriend and her sister conspired to commit perjury.

From the out set the courts were very slanted, hence my ex got custody; this was because my lawyer never took me to the welfare interview. He also never informed me of the actual hearing, hence my ex, boyfriend and sister had an open book, which resulted in custody being given to her. However my case has now been passed to new judges and her last two visits were dead against her; they called me to the bench and simply said give us your evidence and you will win.

I have also had a one to one with the elder judge (He came from the supreme courts) he explained every matter possible; this was the turning point for me, which brought back some trust.

I do believe the courts are developing and should any farang go to court for any reason (Always take a very good translator and always have every court document translated, then you will know exactly what is going on; hence you will not be under the trust of your lawyer)

I now go to court with a lawyer, but he is just there as a face. My translator is the key he is a 50 German 50 Thai and used to translate in the German courts; in fact he knows more than most lawyers.

Edited January 20, 2009 by su-b-doo