Thai Crisis Exposes Class Struggle

[digibum]

True that immigrants in the US may enjoy a different legal status than most foreigner's who call Thailand their home.

But let me ask you a question.... should someone's right to try and influence his community's policies and enter into the political discussion be based solely upon the immigration regulations of his host country?

Voting rights can be based upon these things, but is it fair to say, "You are not allowed to have an oipinion or enter the political discussion unless the the Thai government changes their immigration policies?"

I would venture to say that most Farangs are here legally on one type of visa or another. Most are not breaking the law. Many have made their homes here and what happens in Thailand can and will effect their lives and the lives of their families. Have they no right to an opinion? Have they no right to try and make their opinions known if they choose?

I would say yes, they have every right to do so if they choose, but I am sure that just like in most other countries politicians are not teribly concerned with any segmant of the population that can not or does not vote.

Well Mexicans in the US CAN become citizens. The difficulty involved with becoming a Thai citizen doesn't make this a good comparison.

But on to a bigger issue . . . even illegal immigrants have substantial protections and rights under US law. Mexicans had their Caesar Chavez protecting their rights as migrant workers. In fact, today it is so difficult to even identify an illegal immigrant that it almost encourages people to take a shot. The worst that can happen is that they're sent home. For instance, police, doctors, firemen, etc are very restricted on what they can ask someone about their legal status in the country. In Thailand you have to show a mountain of paperwork to open a bank account where in the US it would be illegal to even ask them if they are in the country legally.

But I'm not trying to bash US laws. I'm only pointing out that these Mexican / farang expat comparison between the US and Thailand is silly considering the differences in immigration laws.

What expats in Thailand need is their own Caesar Chavez. Unfortunately, Chavez was a US citizen of Mexican ancestry. How many farangs have Thai citizenship? Maybe that will change in a few decades when enough luk kruengs have advanced up the societal ladder and decide to make it their political cause to fight for the rights of foreigners but right now no such sentiment exists in the political biosphere.

But that doesn't need to happen for farangs to get a voice. All they need to do is work together. The reason Thai laws work against most foreigners is because farangs fight the system individually instead of as a group.

What do you think would happen if farang teachers took to the streets in protest over the new certification requirements for teachers? Sure, in the short term they would probably revoke the visas of those leading the protests and hope the problem goes away but once the seed of revolution (not real, but ideological) is planted it's hard to kill (see Burma democracy movement). And sure enough goodballs would come in to snap up any lost jobs but sooner or later Thailand would be labeled a bad place for English teachers. It would become more and more difficult to recruit and retain qualified teachers.

Educational standards would suffer, hi-so parents would become upset, and soon a popular movement of Thais would force the government to come up with a program that made brought the English teachers back.

Or what about something more near and dear to politicians and business people's hearts; money? What if expats refused to buy any more condos until they were granted real estate protections (i.e real ownership of land, etc)? Developers stuck with projects they cannot sell would be very angry and would be demanding the government do something.

Bottom line is that expats can have a voice in Thai politics though not directly. People in Thailand profit either from the skills we bring to the country as well as from the money we spend here so farangs who want more of a stake in the country (like those who now call it home) should take a keen interest in using that power to their advantage. Farangs need to look at those places where the interests of Thailand and their interests are symbiotic and find a way to exert power.

The problem is that farangs are not organized nor do many want to be organized. They aren't willing to risk getting booted out of the country or potential physical violence. Many have very good reasons for not wanting to go back home and would prefer to eat crap and keep their head down.

Edited November 15, 2008 by digibum

[Plus]

Let me just say that my involvement is via work not as a hobby.

Hmm, it's all very nice, but who do you work for? Your employer might have a vested interest, for example.

It's a perfectly legitimate concern, because you are the only poster with access to confidential information. As the only source, you can potentially abuse it and spin in any way you want, and we can't say a word cos we don't see the data.

Same thing happened recently in News Clipping with another poster. He was throwing around numbered court rulings from twenty years ago. Who would argue with that? Then, lucklily, some other members double checked it and called his bluff. He didn't have a leg to stand on even with all his quotes.

Ok, it wasn't so dramatic, but the point remains - we will accept proper evaluation of the 30 baht scheme done by independent observers. Anonimous members claiming to be privy to "special information" are suspicious in these troubled times.

What I remember was that the scheme was always severely uderfunded. This is bound to have a devastating long term effect on overall medical care. From doctors flight to lack of fresh investments, deteriorating equipment, outdated procedures, lack of proper training and so on.

And the most probable outcome of budget constraints is providing less service. There's really no other way, especially over a few years time.

>>>

The thread has gone off the rails, btw.

[uhuh]

Did you interview the patients?

Yes I did.

To give you one example: 14 y.o. girl from the poorest family of a poor village of Buriram province was brought to Buriram Provincial Hospital because of left hemiparesis.

When they couldn't figure out what was wrong (they did a CT scan) they sent her to Khorat's Maharat Hospital. An MRI was done in Fort Suranaree Military Hospital. In the end she was sent to Ramathibodi Hospital, the university hospital in Bangkok, one of the best in Thailand, for further diagnostics and treatment.

All this for 30 Baht.

She would not have gotten much better treatment in Western Europe.

Yes, the hospitals try to get money from whoever is perceived as able to pay. Part of this is corruption, part is a way to recover some money, a MRI alone can cost about 10000 B.

But the 30-Baht healthcare covers much more than just the basics.

And as another poster said: the 30-Baht scheme gave the patients some dignity. They were entitled to teatment - they were not beggars anymore. This is a big difference - and this is very disturbing for the light-skinned "middle classes". The poor should know their place in society.

"it will be hard for any moral person to ascend to the top in politics in Issan"

this pretty much shows what many "middle-class" Thais think of Issan.

Try and observe how an ethnic Khmer or Lao (with Thai ID) is treated if he dares to call the call center of his bank (hint: staff may just hang up on him).

Oh, and if you want to insult a Bangkokian, just tell him he is from Issan, that really hurts .

The poor have been swallowing the arrogance of the rich for a long time...and the rich want to keep their lifestyle, complete with cleaners, gardeners, taxi drivers, karaoke girls and mia nois.

[hungryhippo]

The rich, hi-so, noble, elite have had power for too long that they don't want to lose that. Some other countries faced this conflict. We must go through this stage until the people behind PAD understand they can't do anything to win the majority of Thais.

Could you tell me a country whose government isn't run by rich people? oh right, that's because they don't exist. I'm not trying to defend the PAD here but I find your point about rich people running the country quite stupid. Taksin is rich and influences the country too however I don't see you complaining about him.

You seem to think that other countries have reformed and are no longer influenced by rich people. Lobbying groups in the US and UK show otherwise. There's a minister in the UK (forget his name, it was on BBC panorama I believe) who may or may not even hold a visa in the UK.

Maybe the BBC will sack the author of this article for writing such lies - There seems to be a rash of BBC expulsions lately....

I find Jonny has always been quite biased towards Taksin for some reason or another. I call it "objective biased behaviour" because he works for the BBC a certain level of impartiality needs to be maintained however he will sneak these bits of unreliable information into his articles to make them seem more interesting then they actually are.

It's kind of like Fox News where they don't outright lie but bend the truth to the point where the reader comes up with the wrong conclusion. Those of you around for the bloodless coup might know what I mean when you received phone calls from family back in the UK after they had been reading John's nonsense about how dangerous it was.

[pab]

I do not know where to sit on this one, I am leaning towards old old Tacky as quite simply Thailand is going to prosper under him more than it would under the PAD.

I feel greatly for the north and north east but I do not think they are the butt of all jokes but merely thought of as simple people. They now have seemed to have educated their childeren and thus now are not simple people anymore and as any educated person would want they want a say in things.

So true.

As a university professor in Isaan, for the last six years I've watched large segments of this society make the huge jump from agrarian to professional in one generation. It's happening to the tune of 100,000+ students (Isaan-wide) every year.

Of course, we all know it behooves PAD and their co-horts to continue to characterize the population of Isaan, the Thaksin supporters, as country bumpkins. Maybe it comes from constant contact with Isaan taxi drivers and food vendors in Bangkok.

However, they need more contact with the Isaan graphic artists, exporters, Honda quality control managers, Bangkok Post writers, IT experts, and medical personnel who now staff prestigious Bangkok institutions and organizations. These positions and places are where my former students now work. For the second year in a row, Isaan students have swept the top prizes in Thailand's National English Speech Competition in Bangkok, trumping schools like Mahidol, Thammasart, and Kasetsart.

Not quite the country backwater PAD continues to make them out to be.

Every election, these professionals go back to their Isaan hometowns to cast their ballots, with the adult members of their families usually following their more-informed political advice. And yes, they are livid over PAD's continual portrayal of this society as the butt-end of Thailand. I am too.

Very well said Toptuan. but there none so blind as those who cannot see...or accept !!!

[Siripon]

"it will be hard for any moral person to ascend to the top in politics in Issan"

this pretty much shows what many "middle-class" Thais think of Issan.

Try and observe how an ethnic Khmer or Lao (with Thai ID) is treated if he dares to call the call center of his bank (hint: staff may just hang up on him).

Oh, and if you want to insult a Bangkokian, just tell him he is from Issan, that really hurts .

The poor have been swallowing the arrogance of the rich for a long time...and the rich want to keep their lifestyle, complete with cleaners, gardeners, taxi drivers, karaoke girls and mia nois.

My quote mentioned above is not a slight on Issan people, it's a criticism of the political process whereby MPs pay village heads to pay people to register for their party, where canvassers are taken on freebies for delivering votes- if you don't have a lot of money you can't be an MP in Issan. Look at the jobs of the MPs- contractors, owners of large tracts of land, I can't think of one MP in Issan who is not wealthy.

[Plus]

Could you tell me a country whose government isn't run by rich people? oh right, that's because they don't exist.

I remember one Australian MP said that if one is not smart enough to earn himself a BMW, he shouldn't be trusted with running the coutnry. Good point, I think.

[Koo82]

The rich, hi-so, noble, elite have had power for too long that they don't want to lose that. Some other countries faced this conflict. We must go through this stage until the people behind PAD understand they can't do anything to win the majority of Thais.

Could you tell me a country whose government isn't run by rich people? oh right, that's because they don't exist. I'm not trying to defend the PAD here but I find your point about rich people running the country quite stupid. Taksin is rich and influences the country too however I don't see you complaining about him.

I was talking about those rich who can't run the country since Khun Thaksin's time. I'm not talking about every rich.

No need to use the word "stupid" here when you can't understand what I wrote. I have never used heavy words to other members because I'm an adult.

[Koo82]

Very clear that many noble people (military people, elite, hi-so, professors, teachers, government officials, etc.) know they're losing power since Khun Thaksin came up and no way they can hold important positions in the society in this democracy structure. So they do all they can to bring down the winning party. Just simple as that.

I'm not surprised after the 2006 coup, there were so many self-appointed positions for these noble people.

[Siripon]

Very clear that many noble people (military people, elite, hi-so, professors, teachers, government officials, etc.) know they're losing power since Khun Thaksin came up and no way they can hold important positions in the society in this democracy structure. So they do all they can to bring down the winning party. Just simple as that.

I'm not surprised after the 2006 coup, there were so many self-appointed positions for these noble people.

And who did Thaksin give positions to in 'this democracy structure'?

The ministries went to party financiers and contracts went to cronies and his children ie Pantongtae's' How Come'.

Where's the democracy in that?

[Siripon]

Very clear that many noble people (military people, elite, hi-so, professors, teachers, government officials, etc.) know they're losing power since Khun Thaksin came up and no way they can hold important positions in the society in this democracy structure. So they do all they can to bring down the winning party. Just simple as that.

I'm not surprised after the 2006 coup, there were so many self-appointed positions for these noble people.

And who did Thaksin give positions to in 'this democracy structure'?

The ministries went to party financiers and contracts went to cronies and his children ie Pantongtae's' How Come'.

Where's the democracy in that?

[citizen33]

Far from being off topic, Isaan people's perceptions of the health care reforms is very pertinent to the OP. Jonathan Head's thesis (not an original one) is that the TRT offered policies that tapped into the interests of rural people and got them voting on the basis of policies rather than the instructions of traditional patrons. This ideological awakening may, according to commentators like Giles Ungpakum, be the start of a new class-based politics with urban (middle-class) and poorer rural groups in opposing camps. The counter-argument deployed by PAD is that policies have little impact and election results are determined by 'money politics' (vote buying) rather than voters' policy preferences. Many PAD supporters therefore find it necessary to rubbish the UC reforms, as well as other populist policies like village funds and loans. They state that the 30 baht scheme (they love the old name) offered only basic care and extended little real help to the poor. Inconveniently, all the research shows that the UC scheme is actually very popular with rural people. Here is a patient study that is easily accessible to anybody who is interested.

Southeast Asian Studies, Vol. 44, No. 2, September 2006 Assessment of People's Views of Thailand's Universal Coverage (UC): A Field Survey in Thangkwang Subdistrict, Khonkaen, Chalermpol CHAMCHAN

http://www.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/seas/44/2/440205.pdf (1,492,973 bytes)

[Plus]

If the rural population can really mature and break up with patronage politics, and vote for the most sensible platform - great.

They won't be voting for PPP, though.

I wonder if 5 million votes gain for Democrats is the sign of the progress Giles was talking about.

[Koo82]

You must know that many doctors are against this scheme. They said they spent years to study and years to gain experience and now spend their time to treat and get 30 Baht.

Is that one of the reasons the scheme has not been done properly?

[Plus]

Yes, maybe.

They can earn three-four times more in the private sector.

Working for 30 baht scheme is like slave labour for them.

No one who spends six-seven years at university would want to work for so little renumeration. They also have families, you know.

They do their obligatory two-three years of servive and leave. Who can blame them?

[patklang]

i think i would go upcountry,as i trust issan people far more than these chinese/thai,white elitists who think darker skin is bad and that issan should not even be thailand.even the programmes on tv show the actors as being white <deleted>,what is up with these bangkokonians,maybe the polluted air they breath???

After been on this forum for a while i detect that even the bk farangs think they are classier than the farnags who live up country and continue to knock them at every opportunity.i say to the ones who are fed up of this,have a peek at the buriram forum and you will meet far more nicer farangs than this one.the only reason i tried that forum was to get a cross section of posts and all of them were interesting and not flaming.

[citizen33]

You must know that many doctors are against this scheme. They said they spent years to study and years to gain experience and now spend their time to treat and get 30 Baht.

Is that one of the reasons the scheme has not been done properly?

There has been a problem with loss of staff to the private sector, but that had nothing to do with receiving only 30 baht, which was a co-payment discontinued in 2006 and did not directly affect salaries in the public system. At about that time,the government tried to counter the doctor brain drain by improving allowances, especially for physicians in rural areas. A doctor director of a community hospital in Isaan gets these allowances and is guaranteed accelerated progression through the civil service grades so that he or she can rise to the same grade as a Head of a Ministry division in about 7 years. I'd say doctors have very mixed views: some oppose the UC scheme; many in the Rural Doctors' Society (especially in Isaan) and in the higher administrative tiers support it. The Ministry of Public Health traditionally is split into a pro-reform wing and a conservative wing which tries to slow down reform. Many of the pro-reformists have now moved across to the NHSO and are trying to make a difference there. There is an interesting story to tell about how this conflict between reformists and conservatives partly undermined the reforms, and arguably the tension between classes or interest groups that Head mentioned is reflected there too. Interestingly the pro-reform wing is not uniformly pro-TRT, who many perceive as not following through with sufficient resources. Going back to your point, since when did doctors ever support a major health care reform aiming to extend coverage? The UK, Sweden, Canada and Australia are examples where doctors opposed change. Professional opposition is also part of the reason the USA never developed universal coverage. When you say the UC scheme has not been done 'properly' what do you mean? The results are mixed, and there are loads of research studies that you could find on the net (or in the journals if you can access them) that will show this. I haven't seen one credible report that says the scheme has failed though. Recently people I've spoken with in the NHSO have been quite upbeat about progress.

Edited November 18, 2008 by citizen33

[Koo82]

Citizen33,

UC Scheme is one of the good things Khun Thaksin and TRT have done to poor people. Some people in this forum said that the scheme didn't work because it didn't cover all types of treatment. You already talked about this. Their point is to take the credit off Khun Thaksin and TRT aka they didn't do anything in real to support the poor.

I just simply pointed out one example why some doctors hate this scheme and hate Khun Thaksin. I thought they earn monthly salary. Their hospitals collect 30 Baht per patient per case but the government will pay for the treatment. The hospitals don't lose. I don't understand their mentality that they don't think about donating their knowledge to serve public. Do they ever see how poor people live and eat? Paying a few thousand Baht for hospital bills is very tough for them.

Everything won't work perfectly as designed, but what is more important is that under TRT time, majority of Thais felt the difference and Thailand had changed to the better.

[Koo82]

Very clear that many noble people (military people, elite, hi-so, professors, teachers, government officials, etc.) know they're losing power since Khun Thaksin came up and no way they can hold important positions in the society in this democracy structure. So they do all they can to bring down the winning party. Just simple as that.

I'm not surprised after the 2006 coup, there were so many self-appointed positions for these noble people.

And who did Thaksin give positions to in 'this democracy structure'?

The ministries went to party financiers and contracts went to cronies and his children ie Pantongtae's' How Come'.

Where's the democracy in that?

Khun Thaksin came up by election and I'm not surprised he could assign anyone to hold any position. They did make a change. Unlike the PM coming from the army after 2006 (I never bother to get his name. I call him Mr. Pom Kit Wa - Mr. I think) who didn't know a thing about economy. During his time, what the set was doing was to check and check. What ever you did, you were wrong. The one who didn't do wrong are the one who did nothing. Government officials sitting, acting busy and waiting for salary didn't dare to do "far" from the guidelines even for the right things because they were scared someone will jump on them "You corrupt".

The Pom Kit Wa government scr3wed Thailand's economy but they never care to know.

Edited November 23, 2008 by Koo82

[Maigo6]

No one who spends six-seven years at university would want to work for so little renumeration.

What about The Farang English teachers with degrees that work for a Pittance, what is their motivation ?

[LaoPo]

No one who spends six-seven years at university would want to work for so little renumeration.

What about The Farang English teachers with degrees that work for a Pittance, what is their motivation ?

Isn't it the choice to live in Thailand ? I know for a fact that English teachers (with or without the proper degree) make a heck of a lot more money in Korea, Japan, China, for instance. Whether one would like to live there is up to their own decision.....isn't it ?

LaoPo