Why Do U Guys Do It?

[dingdongrb]

After reading countless threads on here about guys who marry thai girls then start supporting her family? why do you guys do it? its culture(not) right? to support the family but do they give you support back?

I am married to a thai girl and i would never send money to anyone in her family, if they want some money then come and cut my garden or something, earn it.

I guess some guys get blackmailed into it, if they dont give then the wife tells him he is no good!!

Im just curious to know why many guys do it?

Oh Dear God this is just another so easy to understand ever recurring to point of somnambulism question.

Sad bastard comes to Third World Country (funny how they all say 'my 22, 25, 29, year old girlfriend, but never mention their own ages by the way), Thailand in particular, because it not only has an endless supply of cheap whores, BUT, they get to eat food which will not tax their imagination, comfort zone, and get to mix with many kinds of their ilk everywhere.

Scenario. Meet girl, easily enough, they're everybloodywhere, young enough to be dauther/grandaughter who will 'take care', where noone else gives a stuff, in particular farang women, for incredibly obvious reasons I suspect. Marriage means bugger all here, except for visa being easier.

Aforesaid Farang, for the first time since his missus back 'ome gave him the bum's rush, and having realised, even given all the porno showing unattractive men getting it on with pretty women - hey! That's how it works chaps - Can't go showing equally attractive men and women, or will definitely not appeal to Sad Bastard With Box Of Cleanex, no empathy) and realsing not having a cat's chance in hel_l of ever being able to find some other woman to put up with his lack of hygiene/charm/social skills and boring conversation, finds 'True Love' (or lub) with acquiesent asian female - she thinks you have more money than you actually do, you dare not admit it/she would not understand anyway, you're White, godammit, becomes terrified at prospect of new tee ruk taking a hike, and so will give her and her er, brother, family, extended family, buffalo, everything she asks for, just to keep her there, with him. Until the money runs out.

Having said the aforegoing, I do understand why so many men do it. After all, long time dead and all that, and what the hel_l else does a socially incompetent, dull, boor of a man do until he dies?

Ahhhhh such another sad story from a contributor who obviously has been rejected by a sweet Thai thing....... as well as running low on his medicaid assistance or else he would have had a successful lobotomy instead of the botched one he obviously received. Perhaps he enjoys stereotyping all the world's relationships, not just the Farang/Thai since he has never experienced one for himself..... (Unless you call 'Rosie Palm' a relationship)

Ahhhhh, here we go again, presumptions presumptions. I am not a guy, have never been rejected by a er, 'sweet Thai thing', am neither American (medicaid? wa's that?), nor in need of financial aid for medical expenses, for anything, and er, jus' for the record and all that, have been happily married to a THAI MAN for the past ten years. Oh, and with nary a request for a handout from the inlaws.

Sorry if I offended you by mistaken your gender....

Since you and others want to stereotype all Thai-Farang relationships regarding the desire to help out or assist the in-laws let me toss in my stereotypical thoughts:

Since you are married to a Thai man I am wondering how many black eyes and bruises you have? I would like to know what you do for a living, is it enough to support his lazy arse to stay home and drink whiskey all day? How's his yabba habit coming along these days, in rehab yet? And when he's out cheating on you with his other wife does he bath before he comes home or is the smell of her still on him?

Now you understand how it is when we (us guys that are married to non BG and have good hearts as well as good families) hear all the nonsense others think occur in ALL Thai/Farang relationships.

I am sure your Thai man is not like I mentioned above and that you have found a good one.....

[Changkok]

After reading countless threads on here about guys who marry thai girls then start supporting her family? why do you guys do it? its culture(not) right? to support the family but do they give you support back?

I am married to a thai girl and i would never send money to anyone in her family, if they want some money then come and cut my garden or something, earn it.

I guess some guys get blackmailed into it, if they dont give then the wife tells him he is no good!!

Im just curious to know why many guys do it?

Oh Dear God this is just another so easy to understand ever recurring to point of somnambulism question.

Sad bastard comes to Third World Country (funny how they all say 'my 22, 25, 29, year old girlfriend, but never mention their own ages by the way), Thailand in particular, because it not only has an endless supply of cheap whores, BUT, they get to eat food which will not tax their imagination, comfort zone, and get to mix with many kinds of their ilk everywhere.

Scenario. Meet girl, easily enough, they're everybloodywhere, young enough to be dauther/grandaughter who will 'take care', where noone else gives a stuff, in particular farang women, for incredibly obvious reasons I suspect. Marriage means bugger all here, except for visa being easier.

Aforesaid Farang, for the first time since his missus back 'ome gave him the bum's rush, and having realised, even given all the porno showing unattractive men getting it on with pretty women - hey! That's how it works chaps - Can't go showing equally attractive men and women, or will definitely not appeal to Sad Bastard With Box Of Cleanex, no empathy) and realsing not having a cat's chance in hel_l of ever being able to find some other woman to put up with his lack of hygiene/charm/social skills and boring conversation, finds 'True Love' (or lub) with acquiesent asian female - she thinks you have more money than you actually do, you dare not admit it/she would not understand anyway, you're White, godammit, becomes terrified at prospect of new tee ruk taking a hike, and so will give her and her er, brother, family, extended family, buffalo, everything she asks for, just to keep her there, with him. Until the money runs out.

Having said the aforegoing, I do understand why so many men do it. After all, long time dead and all that, and what the hel_l else does a socially incompetent, dull, boor of a man do until he dies?

I hope not all farang women are like you!!!!

Didn't take long for the bashers of the farang woman to raise their undoubtedly ugly head.

So let me make myself clear. I completely understand (no really I do), that having been divorced by Doris of Dagenham, and having taken a long hard look at future prospects for an aging man in farangland and found it a bleak and daunting prospect, the grapevine advice to go to a third world country, and hit the jackpot with some acquiescent peasant who will take care of you into, hopefully, your dotage, on the mutual understanding that the farang man will financially support the asian (okay, in this case Thai) woman, for his getting his dinner cooked, the house cleaned, sex on demand and control of the remote, is probably, in my view, a very good option. I don't blame you. The problem I have is the delusion. When the women start asking for money on a regular basis for their extended family (and I'm not talking about the occasional one off crisis here), said farang man will be bled dry and whining ad infinitum on Thaivisa.com. Same same as their continual bleating about how they lost everything in their divorce from Doris. 'Yeah, took me for everfin' I 'ad.

It wasnt a bash, maybe you should stand back for a moment and look at yourself. all will become clear.

[Changkok]

GH, is it difficult for you to understand that "it's not wrong to take care of your parents as they get older?". It should applauded not degrade.

Yes, but let's draw the line at taking care of one's parents with other people's money.

And then there are the Farangs dishing the cash to 'Parents' who are younger than themselves..... Yep that's to be applauded too.

Come down from your Ivory Tower, whats wrong with someone helping his wifes parents in times of need, my friend pays for his wife (same age) kids to go to school should that be looked down upon.

Why do so many people feel the need to say "my freind" cmon this is a internet forum no one knows you dont need to be shy about anything.

[Changkok]

GH, is it difficult for you to understand that "it's not wrong to take care of your parents as they get older?". It should applauded not degrade.

Yes, but let's draw the line at taking care of one's parents with other people's money.

And then there are the Farangs dishing the cash to 'Parents' who are younger than themselves..... Yep that's to be applauded too.

Come down from your Ivory Tower, whats wrong with someone helping his wifes parents in times of need, my friend pays for his wife (same age) kids to go to school should that be looked down upon.

Go easy on GH, Spiderman2. He's in Saudi and not getting any.

LMFAO jetsetbkk. You were the first to reply to this thread stating it was a troll topic Clearly you like reading them

[Changkok]

After reading countless threads on here about guys who marry thai girls then start supporting her family? why do you guys do it? its culture(not) right? to support the family but do they give you support back?

I am married to a thai girl and i would never send money to anyone in her family, if they want some money then come and cut my garden or something, earn it.

I guess some guys get blackmailed into it, if they dont give then the wife tells him he is no good!!

Im just curious to know why many guys do it?

Oh Dear God this is just another so easy to understand ever recurring to point of somnambulism question.

Sad bastard comes to Third World Country (funny how they all say 'my 22, 25, 29, year old girlfriend, but never mention their own ages by the way), Thailand in particular, because it not only has an endless supply of cheap whores, BUT, they get to eat food which will not tax their imagination, comfort zone, and get to mix with many kinds of their ilk everywhere.

Scenario. Meet girl, easily enough, they're everybloodywhere, young enough to be dauther/grandaughter who will 'take care', where noone else gives a stuff, in particular farang women, for incredibly obvious reasons I suspect. Marriage means bugger all here, except for visa being easier.

Aforesaid Farang, for the first time since his missus back 'ome gave him the bum's rush, and having realised, even given all the porno showing unattractive men getting it on with pretty women - hey! That's how it works chaps - Can't go showing equally attractive men and women, or will definitely not appeal to Sad Bastard With Box Of Cleanex, no empathy) and realsing not having a cat's chance in hel_l of ever being able to find some other woman to put up with his lack of hygiene/charm/social skills and boring conversation, finds 'True Love' (or lub) with acquiesent asian female - she thinks you have more money than you actually do, you dare not admit it/she would not understand anyway, you're White, godammit, becomes terrified at prospect of new tee ruk taking a hike, and so will give her and her er, brother, family, extended family, buffalo, everything she asks for, just to keep her there, with him. Until the money runs out.

Having said the aforegoing, I do understand why so many men do it. After all, long time dead and all that, and what the hel_l else does a socially incompetent, dull, boor of a man do until he dies?

Ahhhhh such another sad story from a contributor who obviously has been rejected by a sweet Thai thing....... as well as running low on his medicaid assistance or else he would have had a successful lobotomy instead of the botched one he obviously received. Perhaps he enjoys stereotyping all the world's relationships, not just the Farang/Thai since he has never experienced one for himself..... (Unless you call 'Rosie Palm' a relationship)

Ahhhhh, here we go again, presumptions presumptions. I am not a guy, have never been rejected by a er, 'sweet Thai thing', am neither American (medicaid? wa's that?), nor in need of financial aid for medical expenses, for anything, and er, jus' for the record and all that, have been happily married to a THAI MAN for the past ten years. Oh, and with nary a request for a handout from the inlaws.

Sorry if I offended you by mistaken your gender....

Since you and others want to stereotype all Thai-Farang relationships regarding the desire to help out or assist the in-laws let me toss in my stereotypical thoughts:

Since you are married to a Thai man I am wondering how many black eyes and bruises you have? I would like to know what you do for a living, is it enough to support his lazy arse to stay home and drink whiskey all day? How's his yabba habit coming along these days, in rehab yet? And when he's out cheating on you with his other wife does he bath before he comes home or is the smell of her still on him?

Now you understand how it is when we (us guys that are married to non BG and have good hearts as well as good families) hear all the nonsense others think occur in ALL Thai/Farang relationships.

I am sure your Thai man is not like I mentioned above and that you have found a good one.....

Very very good reply dingdongrb, lets get this horrible hatred towards farang men with thai women off here.

[GuestHouse]

Go easy on GH, Spiderman2. He's in Saudi and not getting any.

The great GH need do no more then turn his head in the direction of Saudis finest females for them to tremble inside with lust, but alas he has married into the elite of Thai society leaving us all to truly admire his superiority.

Only playing I bet he never really spoke to girls too much until he went to SE Asia.

I guess that's what passes as an intellectual argument in Spiderman world.

[GuestHouse]

I think it is fair to say that if a relationship starts with a financial transaction it is very likely to continue along those lines.

You shouldn't have to go very far to see that majority of Thai family help each other. If you haven't seen it than get out of your house and have a look around.

It might be observed too that this 'paying the family' results in very many farangs giving over money they can't afford, while more than a few are being bled dry by an avericious Thai family. You needn't go far to find evidence of this. Take a look around ThaiVisa.

[kingwillly]

....I don'tlike to sound cynical,..DingDonggrb,...but your sister in law who received sinsod from Thai chap, u wouldn't happen to have any idea how the farang father/mother inlaw spent the money?.....new pickup truck perhaps?

Dee, You need to reread my post... It was a Thai man who married my Thai sister-in-law and he paid my Thai M/F in-law sinsot..... No farangs involved.... My point was being that not only farangs pay sinsot but Thais do too......

quite true, but easier to think its a thai conspiracy to rob farangs of their wealth

[Heng]

You shouldn't have to go very far to see that majority of Thai family help each other. If you haven't seen it than get out of your house and have a look around.

In general it's a two way street though. With many (not all of course) farang-Thai relationships, it's Being Bled with Bitters Boulevard.

[Huey]

I however think its best to marry up or at least even. Makes things easier in the long run.

Oh so you could not love someone that has lower net worth than you? Such a sad man (and materialistic one) you are.......

(Perhaps we should be calling you the 'gold digger')

Do you take your bank book with you on a date and request the other party to do the same?

Laugh all ya want, I'm happily married with great inlaws that never confront me with any sick buffalo, grandma sick, brother motor-bike accident, ect. stories for money. If your dating just for casual sex then who cares if she's got a baht to her name??? But if your looking for a wife ya gotta look at the family here and think, at least to some small degree, as a Thai would in your secnerio for your own personal protection. Broke women from poor familes can be problematic, not all but most, unless you wanna end up looking like UNICEF to half of her villiage in Whutdaphukaburi somewhere, really think about it....

Lady Day said it best..."God bless the child thats got his own."

[dingdongrb]

I however think its best to marry up or at least even. Makes things easier in the long run.

Oh so you could not love someone that has lower net worth than you? Such a sad man (and materialistic one) you are.......

(Perhaps we should be calling you the 'gold digger')

Do you take your bank book with you on a date and request the other party to do the same?

Laugh all ya want, I'm happily married with great inlaws that never confront me with any sick buffalo, grandma sick, brother motor-bike accident, ect. stories for money. If your dating just for casual sex then who cares if she's got a baht to her name??? But if your looking for a wife ya gotta look at the family here and think, at least to some small degree, as a Thai would in your secnerio for your own personal protection. Broke women from poor familes can be problematic, not all but most, unless you wanna end up looking like UNICEF to half of her villiage in Whutdaphukaburi somewhere, really think about it....

Lady Day said it best..."God bless the child thats got his own."

I wasn't laughing at you, I was laughing at your way of thinking. And that being said (from your post) one should marry someone equal or better in financial status. I am still laughing as this makes me think of you, as I stated, are materialistic. I married for the first time at the age of 21.... Young and stupid I was.. I married for lust, end of story. I divorced 5 years later and was single for well over 20 years..... When I fell in love with my current wife it had nothing to do with her bank book or net worth, or even where her family was from. I married her because of many things but none was financial. These things were (not in any particular order) physical attraction, personality, common interests and hobbies, common goals in life, as well as other fine qualities that is hard to explain to someone that is just looking at the bank balance.

I am happy for you that you found the 'right one' for being your lifelong companion and I and happy that she didn't come from the rice farming area of Issan. I wish you the best as my wife's family is not poor nor wealthy and have never asked me for a single baht. However being the kind person I am I will help them in anyway within my means if it is ever needed just as I would with my family back in the USA, whether this is using money or any other type of support.

[Maigo6]

I was reading through the old topics on this subject, just one of 3,468 that have been posted on the very same topic over the 5 years I've been posting here.

LOL.....

This is quite a good one, but the ones when this site was less moderated were hilarious!

You have the guys that seem to hate everything about Thailand and it's people so much they married a Thai and live in Thailand, telling other guys that are happy in Thailand that they have made the wrong choices in life.

You have the guys that tell you you're insane cos they never paid a single baht and never will do.

You have the guys that tell you their wife is wealthy so they don't have to pay, in fact they get money from her rich and powerful family.

You get the guys that live in Thailand quite happily being told that they are wrong by some guys who don't live in Thailand and are toiling away in some far off land to pay off their western mortgage , loans , private education for kids etc etc, who'll probably be dead from stress related heart attacks before they're 60.

And above them all high on his perch is the Troll who started it all, gloating, wringing his hands in glee.

Long may these threads last, I for one enjoy them !

[dingdongrb]

Long may these threads last, I for one enjoy them !

I do too Magio6 as I can take the bad and make it look good as well as take the good and make it look bad..... It goes to show that everyone is different and if that wasn't so then perhaps there wouldn't be anything called 'war'......

[RakJungTorlae]

Long may these threads last, I for one enjoy them !

I do too Magio6 as I can take the bad and make it look good as well as take the good and make it look bad..... It goes to show that everyone is different and if that wasn't so then perhaps there wouldn't be anything called 'war'......

You are talented; as everyone is different there is still the simplest answer and perhaps a solution for every war. “Love”.

But let’s stay on topic. “Love” will find a way to help fools part with there money!!

But when I was growing up I saw a lot of guys who have a lot of romantic and responsible energy for there partners.

(This song comes to mind).

“I will give you everything your heart wishes for, till the day we all go; I just want you to know.”

So I guess love is the reason why someone would help support someone’s family’s.

Ofcuse unfortunately there have been a lot of chicken hulks hacked who are in to hunting chickens with cash, and im guessing that’s why these topics have surfaced and will cause a war.

And as someone mentioned on this thread “Thais” normal and would also help there family’s when they hit hard times.

Also yes you could be unlucky and have a crazy family sucking you dry.~~ som nom na .. live and learn hey..…

[torrenova]

It's nice that you can share you thoughts and knowledge of the bar girls but what about the legit Thai girls and even guys, what do you know about them?

I can tell you personally one of my best Thai friends (male) who I met about 8 years or more ago works as an engineer in the high tech mfg industry. He is young 30s and until this year was single. He was making about 60k baht a month and I personally know that his money was used for 2 things:

1) Sent 20k baht home to his parents every month.

2) Saved for a car which he just bought and paid cash for last year.

His lifestyle was not fancy tangible items or out drinking as he lived a modest life in BKK living in a 5k month apartment up until getting married earlier this year. Now being married does he still send 20k baht to his parents each month, I do not know. He has sent moved from BKK to the southern part of LOS where he is from and his parents live. But, knowing him as close as I do I am sure he helps his parents one way or another. He has a 'jai dee'.... Sounds like you need to get out of the bar and away from the rats that hang around them in order to grasp a different aspect on Thai living.

Please do not assume that because I know where the North Pole is that I do not also know the location of the South Pole.

I accept your example but you also have to factor in the amount of people putting money into the family pot each month. Now your friend may be the only contributor or he may have asked his parents to mortgage their house or land to obtain money for university which he has to pay back, we do not know. He may just genuinely feel that is a righteous sum.

Were someone to earn Bt600,000 a month then would Bt200,000 be the right amount ? What we are talking about in the majority of cases is people earning far far less than your friend, perhaps Bt6,000 to Bt12,000 a month and on those salaries, no-one is sending Bt20,000 a month home ! Thus, the gullible westerner is being milked like a cow.

As for getting out of the bar, I used one section of my business and experience so please do not mistake me for some downbeat expat who spends 24 hours a day propping up the corner of his single bar operation.

[torrenova]

Actually - many will be suprized to hear that it is NOT culturally expected that the the new husband (ex-pat or Thai) picks up the tab for the in-laws - no more so than would be expected of one in the West. So just why do guys do it?

Well, firstly without exception all ex-pats I know who have found themselves in this sort of position do so out of goodwill and a desire to help. However much misguided that may be the intention has always been honourable - which makes it so much the worse when that goodwill is abused.

What is expected is that you (the new husband) are there to help when needed. That is expected - and in many repects I guess that is what most folk would do for their inlaws in the West (?). What happens here in Thailand is that for in laws here, marrying off their darling is percieved as a "life changing" experiance - a way to clear debts that have nothing to do with the ex-pat husband, the means to that new pick-up, and if lucky a new plot of land and new house - with a monthly stipend thrown in.

Nothing cultural in that, and if you get told that these things will be expected of you by the prospective wife, as if its a condition, my advise to you is .... well, lets put it this way: I'd retreat fast.

It is not your duty, culturally, morally or otherwise to clear debts and generally dig into your hard earned savings to buy this, that or whatever. Repeated reminders and discussion that revolves around your financial obligations towards the family need to be treated with caution - and quite frankly, if presented to you as a condition, which you then follow through with, youre a mug.

The question is - where do you draw the line?

Your duty is no more, no less, to be supportive and helpful as and when needed. Do so with honesty and integrity. To become the "ATM" machine on call 24/7 will certainly have everyone liking you, but it won't earn you any respect.

Most elderly Thai's (parents-in-law - the generation before you and I) are conservative and proud folk, who would not in a month of Sundays take advantage or abuse the generosity and good will shown to them by their son-in-law. If they appear only to happy to do so - it's perhaps time you give some thought to just what you are doing in that situation. Something isn't right - its no more normal in Thailand than it is in a Western country.

Superb post MF.

Telling it like it is, not how some believe it to be.

[Tod Daniels]

Sadly I see yet another topic has turned into a pissing match between the "wanna-b-thai" and "thai bashing" factions. It's actually amazing it took so long to deteriorate to this level given the strong feelings on opposite sides of the proverbial fence regarding this topic.

Obviously excluding my informative diatribe concerning the O/P's question it seems there are a LOT of personal attacks on each other by the same sheep-like, sock puppet posters.

While I did waste entirely too much time this morning reading all 6 pages of this thread; I think without a doubt the most accurate, succinct, and well written post was by "Maizefarmer" on page 3. (which I will not quote; as the previous poster torrenova did it first).

[Gary A]

It is the Thai way that the children should take care of their parents in the parents old age. My wife's mother and father have a new home that was built about two years ago. Who paid for that home? As it happens, my wife's youngest sister and her husband paid for it. Why? The husband works for a US company and his income is more than the average Thai. His wife also works. Both work in Bangkok. The mother in law takes care of their two children and as compensation, the new home was built. And yes, my wife helps out too. She gives each of her parents 500 baht per month as do the other children. That 1,000 baht per month is my wifes money so it is up to her. As a side note, I paid no sinsot.

[Maigo6]

It is the Thai way that the children should take care of their parents in the parents old age.

Exactly Gary, then again, what do we know ?

[Jingthing]

OK, I have another question about this. Thai way, schmai way, or in some cases what we are TOLD is the Thai way.

Consider this: a relationship is a TWO WAY street.

When you have two cultures getting together in a hopefully loving relationship, isn't it reasonable for BOTH parties to make some accomodations?

The Thais expectations may be one way. Our expectations may be another. So we are supposed to totally submit to the Thai way (or again what we are told is the Thai way which may actually be the soak the farang way) just because we are IN Thailand? Would it be that way in our home countries, for example an Iranian marries a Canadian Anglo, do you really think the Iranian would be expected to fully comply with Canadian cultural expectations in such a union?

Edited November 22, 2008 by Jingthing

[Dakhar]

OK, I have another question about this. Thai way, schmai way, or in some cases what we are TOLD is the Thai way.

Consider this: a relationship is a TWO WAY street.

When you have two cultures getting together in a hopefully loving relationship, isn't it reasonable for BOTH parties to make some accomodations?

The Thais expectations may be one way. Our expectations may be another. So we are supposed to totally submit to the Thai way (or again what we are told is the Thai way which may actually be the soak the farang way) just because we are IN Thailand? Would it be that way in our home countries, for example an Iranian marries a Canadian Anglo, do you really think the Iranian would be expected to fully comply with Canadian cultural expectations in such a union?

The general rule is, the greater the age dispersion between the two spouses, the more the marriage obeys Thai culture. Or at least that has been my observation.

[Dakhar]

It is the Thai way that the children should take care of their parents in the parents old age.

Exactly Gary, then again, what do we know ?

More Timothy Treadwell garbage. AKA the Bear Whisperer

http://www.shewolfworks.com/wolfsong/news/..._events_815.htm

But now we have the league of Thai Whisperers.

[Jingthing]

OK, I have another question about this. Thai way, schmai way, or in some cases what we are TOLD is the Thai way.

Consider this: a relationship is a TWO WAY street.

When you have two cultures getting together in a hopefully loving relationship, isn't it reasonable for BOTH parties to make some accomodations?

The Thais expectations may be one way. Our expectations may be another. So we are supposed to totally submit to the Thai way (or again what we are told is the Thai way which may actually be the soak the farang way) just because we are IN Thailand? Would it be that way in our home countries, for example an Iranian marries a Canadian Anglo, do you really think the Iranian would be expected to fully comply with Canadian cultural expectations in such a union?

The general rule is, the greater the age dispersion between the two spouses, the more the marriage obeys Thai culture. Or at least that has been my observation.

I suppose that is a coded way of saying the more the relationship is based on money, the more the marriage obeys Thai culture (the farang as ATM cultural model, that is).

[MiG16]

Ive not managed to read through all the posts, only got to page 2 or 3, and (still) see half the posts are personal attacks or flames

while the other half may be very interesting posts that share insights/logic/explanations not only to the OP's question, but also lifestyles and practices in Thailand

I was contemplating cleaning up, removing the nasty comments, but doesnt seem very practical, given the abundance of the personal attacks and general flames.

Given the thread has been going for many pages, Id imagine the OP should already have his answer...hidden in between the various flames.

hence, this thread is now closed. unless the OP or anyone else can convince me otherwise. (feel free to PM, but you will need to have very strong case to convince me)

cheers

ADD: well, after reading all posts, my observations above stand.

Edited November 22, 2008 by MiG16
now read through all pages, and confirmed initial observation