Gen. Anupong suggests House dissolution

[Scott]

It's fairly obvious that the army is in charge of the country. They are asked/told/requested/ordered to stop demonstrations and they decline. Calling in the military and not causing violence aren't mutually exclusive. The military can surely attempt to carry out the orders without using violence and they have the numbers to do that. Of course, it's always risky to have the military act, but it seems necessary.

This is beyond the ability of police.

And as for elections. Maybe it's a good idea, but what if the same people win? They still have a lot of support and now they also have a fair amount of sympathy.

[JoeInSurin]

Joe --- you may not know it but the 30 baht health scheme was not a Thaksin thing and the village loan scheme has created more debt and is causing far more issues than it has helped with!

Most of the pro-PAD school teachers that live near me have been lent more money from the government, because they are school teachers, than they can ever pay back in two life times creating more debt and causing issue also. Does this bother you? They have been lent millions of baht that will never be paid back. The farmers have been lent 20,000 baht. What is your point?

[mc2]

I'm still appreciative that the red shirts haven't had direct confrontations recently with the yellows. Is it because the reds are restrained or because they can't muster enough folks to counter the yellows?

It's also mucho appreciarlo that the police and military haven't responded heavy-handedly. bravo!

I think the PAD are shooting themselves in the foot with this latest tactic and the reds know this . reds seem happy to sit back and watch them bleed.

PAD public approval is at an all time low .

[jitagon]

methinks grandpops posteth too much.

Let us be calm. The pieces are moving on a vast board

yes, I need a jam sandwich, then I'll get back to the revolution.

SO WHY QUESTION AGAIN IS WHAT IS IT THAT THEY ARE PROTESTING, WHAT DO THEY WANT.????

cAN YOU ANSWER THAT FOR ME? JD??

I don't have all the answers, but PAD, even with their faults, are staging non-violent, effective, sustained and well-attended protests in order to (among other things) try to rid Thailand from the scourge of Thaksin. A man who paid his way to power on the back of promises he knew he couldn't keep. a lot more disparaging things could be said about Thaksin and his brood, but you've heard so much already.

note: In Byzantine, hundreds of years ago, there were riots between the green shirts and the blue shirts.

I'm still appreciative that the red shirts haven't had direct confrontations recently with the yellows. Is it because the reds are restrained or because they can't muster enough folks to counter the yellows?

It's also mucho appreciarlo that the police and military haven't responded heavy-handedly. bravo!

first time I've seen the words 'red's (shirts) and 'restrained' in the same sentence.

[Jingthing]

I'm still appreciative that the red shirts haven't had direct confrontations recently with the yellows. Is it because the reds are restrained or because they can't muster enough folks to counter the yellows?

It's also mucho appreciarlo that the police and military haven't responded heavy-handedly. bravo!

I think the PAD are shooting themselves in the foot with this latest tactic and the reds know this . reds seem happy to sit back and watch them bleed.

PAD public approval is at an all time low .

I doubt that really. You are assuming that each member of the publics opinion matters in the same way. It doesn't work that way. They may win or lose whatever that means to them, but I don't think it will be based on public opinion polls.

[jdinasia]

Joe --- you may not know it but the 30 baht health scheme was not a Thaksin thing and the village loan scheme has created more debt and is causing far more issues than it has helped with!

Most of the pro-PAD school teachers that live near me have been lent more money from the government, because they are school teachers, than they can ever pay back in two life times creating more debt and causing issue also. Does this bother you? They have been lent millions of baht that will never be paid back. The farmers have been lent 20,000 baht. What is your point?

Joe, the tactic you are taking is not answering the things put to you ... it is trying to shift the answer/blame. You seem to be suggesting that teachers are Pro PAD (why?) and why have they been lent money from the government? and did they not come from the same communities that the farmers do?

but the question about the farmers remains If your village loan scheme creates a debt that eventually causes the farmer to lose his land did it help or hurt the farmer? (The teachers I know that teach up-country in government schools come from up-country. Are you suggesting that no more loans should be given to teachers? How is that an answer?

[jbowman1993]

The late great Martin Luther King Jr. once said - "The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice". Sometimes it just feels like a very very long arc....

[blaze]

exactly, all the PRO_PAD say only the PAD can / will stand up to Thaksin, and government corruption, but they fail to remember that it is the JUDGES and the COURT SYSTEM not the PAD that is issuing jail sentences... I am not pro-yellow shirt or pro-red shirt, but after the stunts the yellow shirts have pulled these last few months, I am ANTI yellow shirt policies.... I hope when all is settled that the GOOD JUDGES AND COURT SYSTEM deal with the yellow shirt leaders just as they dealt with Thaksin ....

Ahhhh but there's the kicker... Thaksin has been convicted, but is he in jail? TRT has been banned from politics but they are all still interfering in politics. The current regime tried to illegally change the constitution as recently as yesterday (which the PAD prevented). Thaksin ripped apart the checks and balances that democracy needs to survive and his cronies are still trying to do so.

I would like to see the guy that fired the gun yesterday be brought in front of courts! I would also like to see the people that have been bombing the PAD be brought on charges!

I am not sure about what stunts that you are referring to that the PAD has pulled but I think they certainly should pay any and all damages to Gov't House etc when this is over (and the airport, etc etc) I think that action should be taken against the leaders of the PAD where the courts deem it prudent/lawful to do so!

Let's face it the courts just pissed Thaksin off and made him more resolute to force his way back into power through any means he can, attempting to bribe judges, throwing illegal money into elections, and more!

As you know the Democrats also, in their (albeit miniscule) policy statements in the previous election, promised to change the constitution should they come to power. Perhaps you are correct that the PPP is 'illegally' attempting to change the constitution- as they promised they would. But please explain which laws would the PPP be breaking were they to change the constitution.

And it seems odd that the PAD would object to a government's threat to change the constitution since the political scheme they envision will virtually turn the constitution upside down- forcing a rewrite the magnitude of which has never been seen since 1932.

As far as the banning of people from politics- it's a joke. It can't be done. Anyone with an ounce of historical awareness knows that some of the most important actors on political stages have worked from behind bars or out of the country. Recall Juan Peron? Nelson Mandella? Even dead men can affect the political process- Dr King comes to mind. All you can do is ban them from holding official office- only the most naive would seriously believe that their influence can be silenced- or banned.

The interesting players in all this, as was anticipated by the more reactionary proponents of the present consitution, are the courts. Judges rarely sentence purely on technical points- anywhere. In many cases they don't even find on purely techincal points- They rule within the context of what THEY deem to be in the best interest of society. This is why it is always dangerous to give the judicial system to much leeway. (You are of course aware of the debates in the States about judicial activism). It is also the reason that many academics worried that the new constitution would place the destiny of the country, not in the hands of the people- not even in the hands of the polititians- but in the hands of a handful of carefully selected (by whom?) judges. (At the same time, putting the destiny of the nation in the hands of those traditional bastions of Thai governance- the military, beaurocrats and judges- was a goal of some- including, I think, the current PAD leadership).

Whether the judges will see the PAD as liberators or traitors will depend on the context they bring when analyzing the events of the past year. As things stand- it could be- will be- argued that the PAD have strived for the betterment of the nation, and thus, such laws as were broken, were done so for the greater good- and so- no problem. If it was not illegal for the army to shred the previous constitution, extort one that exonerated them, throw the current government out of office- then surely taking a few pot shots at the SAME enemy (THaksinistas or suspected Thaksinistas or coul- be Thaksinistas)- is permissable.

[grandpops]

Well, thats covered it from the PAD side then. JD, Sriracha, H90 and co

Should the General have insisted that PAD form a party

Should PAD form a party - No comment

Who should be deputy minister - No Comment

List a raft of policies that could get this PAD Party elected - No comment

Should PAD respect the outcome of the next election - No comment

As we suspected, no comments and no positive ideas, just snears, snipes, smears and knee jerk responses.

D- all round you guys. and we waited four hours now with 6 or 7 prompts for you. Would be really interesting to hear if you have any of your own opinions.

I even said I would like Thaksin out and The democrats in and said I would accept a PAD Government if it were elected.

Edited November 26, 2008 by grandpops

[blaze]

It's fairly obvious that the army is in charge of the country. They are asked/told/requested/ordered to stop demonstrations and they decline. Calling in the military and not causing violence aren't mutually exclusive. The military can surely attempt to carry out the orders without using violence and they have the numbers to do that. Of course, it's always risky to have the military act, but it seems necessary.

This is beyond the ability of police.

And as for elections. Maybe it's a good idea, but what if the same people win? They still have a lot of support and now they also have a fair amount of sympathy.

Bear in mind that the coup was a financial windfall for the military- it would be pretty dumb of them to be seen as even mildly condemning the very people (PAD) who essentially paved the driveways on which the General's new BMWs are parked. There are issues of loyalty and gratitude involved here- issues that transcend principles and politics. (Recall Sondhi's bitterness over being sidelined for a place in the Sarauyuth government).

Edited November 26, 2008 by blaze

[animatic]

Joe --- you may not know it but the 30 baht health scheme was not a Thaksin thing and the village loan scheme has created more debt and is causing far more issues than it has helped with!

Most of the pro-PAD school teachers that live near me have been lent more money from the government, because they are school teachers, than they can ever pay back in two life times creating more debt and causing issue also. Does this bother you? They have been lent millions of baht that will never be paid back. The farmers have been lent 20,000 baht. What is your point?

Joe, the tactic you are taking is not answering the things put to you ... it is trying to shift the answer/blame. You seem to be suggesting that teachers are Pro PAD (why?) and why have they been lent money from the government? and did they not come from the same communities that the farmers do?

but the question about the farmers remains If your village loan scheme creates a debt that eventually causes the farmer to lose his land did it help or hurt the farmer? (The teachers I know that teach up-country in government schools come from up-country. Are you suggesting that no more loans should be given to teachers? How is that an answer?

It's and old, old story keeping the workers in a financial bind to control them....

Work 16 hours and what a ya get

Another day older and deeper in debt.

Saint Peter can't hear me when I call.

I sold my soul to the company store.

[Kerryd]

People Shouldn't Be Afraid of Their Government, Governments' Should Be Afraid of Their People.

Anybody who has seen the movie will know the relevance to this thread.

I posted that in another thread yesterday. Not sure if it was deleted or just lost in the mass of posts.

And for all you people that think the army, the police and anyone else in uniform should just wade in and start cracking PAD skulls (which a lot of arm-chair generals here are literally drooling while hoping to see that happen), remember something.

Not too long ago, Someone mentioned that They did not want to see any violence.

If you can't figure out that out, and therefore realize why the army and/or police are being restrained, then you should go back and learn a little more about how certain things are done (or, not done) in Thailand.

[MiG16]

too late for the no-violence aint it

see the ChiangMai airport thread, or watch latest news on TV

sad

[JoeInSurin]

Joe --- you may not know it but the 30 baht health scheme was not a Thaksin thing and the village loan scheme has created more debt and is causing far more issues than it has helped with!

Most of the pro-PAD school teachers that live near me have been lent more money from the government, because they are school teachers, than they can ever pay back in two life times creating more debt and causing issue also. Does this bother you? They have been lent millions of baht that will never be paid back. The farmers have been lent 20,000 baht. What is your point?

Joe, the tactic you are taking is not answering the things put to you ... it is trying to shift the answer/blame. You seem to be suggesting that teachers are Pro PAD (why?) and why have they been lent money from the government? and did they not come from the same communities that the farmers do?

but the question about the farmers remains If your village loan scheme creates a debt that eventually causes the farmer to lose his land did it help or hurt the farmer? (The teachers I know that teach up-country in government schools come from up-country. Are you suggesting that no more loans should be given to teachers? How is that an answer?

I have stated that the teachers living near me are pro-PAD. I have no idea why the government would lend them amounts of money they could never pay back. I would like to know why also. They come from the elite from the same provinces as the farmers. You are suggesting that no more loans should be given to farmers that they can never pay them back while asking me why no more loans should be given to teachers that they can never pay back. What is the difference? The PAD teachers around me have got loans they could never pay back for their second or third car, gambling debt, young girl friends, ect. The farmers have got the loans for rice seed , fertilizer, cows ect. to survive. The teachers owe millions and the farmers owe 20,000 baht. The pro-PAD teachers are going to Bangkok to the rallys complaining about the farmers and PPP.

[cougar52]

I think I just figured it out. There is one more option, that plays right into the hands of PAD and really puts Thaksin and Co. out of the picture.

But, I don't understand why no-one has spoken of it. It is call a Judicial Coup

Read all about it here:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JK22Ae02.html

[JoeInSurin]

Joe --- you may not know it but the 30 baht health scheme was not a Thaksin thing and the village loan scheme has created more debt and is causing far more issues than it has helped with!

Most of the pro-PAD school teachers that live near me have been lent more money from the government, because they are school teachers, than they can ever pay back in two life times creating more debt and causing issue also. Does this bother you? They have been lent millions of baht that will never be paid back. The farmers have been lent 20,000 baht. What is your point?

Joe, the tactic you are taking is not answering the things put to you ... it is trying to shift the answer/blame. You seem to be suggesting that teachers are Pro PAD (why?) and why have they been lent money from the government? and did they not come from the same communities that the farmers do?

but the question about the farmers remains If your village loan scheme creates a debt that eventually causes the farmer to lose his land did it help or hurt the farmer? (The teachers I know that teach up-country in government schools come from up-country. Are you suggesting that no more loans should be given to teachers? How is that an answer?

It's and old, old story keeping the workers in a financial bind to control them....

Work 16 hours and what a ya get

Another day older and deeper in debt.

Saint Peter can't hear me when I call.

I sold my soul to the company store.

I don't buy the story in the USA. Obama being black and coming from a family on food stamps is now President. I do not think this could happen as easy in Thailand.

[ovenman]

I don't buy the story in the USA. Obama being black and coming from a family on food stamps is now President. I do not think this could happen as easy in Thailand.

Chuan Leekpai's origins and upbringing were fairly humble.

[jdinasia]

I have stated that the teachers living near me are pro-PAD. I have no idea why the government would lend them amounts of money they could never pay back. I would like to know why also. They come from the elite from the same provinces as the farmers. You are suggesting that no more loans should be given to farmers that they can never pay them back while asking me why no more loans should be given to teachers that they can never pay back. What is the difference? The PAD teachers around me have got loans they could never pay back for their second or third car, gambling debt, young girl friends, ect. The farmers have got the loans for rice seed , fertilizer, cows ect. to survive. The teachers owe millions and the farmers owe 20,000 baht. The pro-PAD teachers are going to Bangkok to the rallys complaining about the farmers and PPP.

joe ....

What teachers rec'd millions of baht in loans? and for what? Oh, you say you don't know. is there any evidence that any teachers were given loans of "Millions"? I don't know af any but a few teachers in BKK that have "millions of baht". Teaching is not an ELITE job and the elite do not need the loans you claim they have gotten. (but certainly wouldn't be teachers) If you have an "elite" that chose teaching it would be because they truly desired to. You are making claims that I have NEVER once heard before about teachers and loans! (Yes some upper level academics have soundly been pro PAD (or at least vehemently anti-Thaksin, but average teachers? hardly 'elite' people!

I have not suggested no more loans be given to farmers. However I will now do so! No loans should be given to farmers! They should get assistance without the need to pay it back IF there is real need not generated by their own neglect. Your claims of what farmers have used loans for are very likely valid but there are many reports about the loans being used for TV's mobile phones etc ... which is why I think that the answer is NOT to throw money at the situation leading people further into debt until they lose the land they have held for ages! Assistance? absolutely! cash? never!

[JoeInSurin]

I don't buy the story in the USA. Obama being black and coming from a family on food stamps is now President. I do not think this could happen as easy in Thailand.

Chuan Leekpai's origins and upbringing were fairly humble.

There is always the exception but is not as easy here. I know several girls in the village that are gifted and excellant students that can not afford the 40,000 baht (which is illegal to charge) fee to get into the best school here. Their potential will not be reached. In the USA all kids get the same chance regardless on financial status.

[LaoPo]

"Gen. Anupong suggests House dissolution"

I think General Anupong Paochinda is in an extremely difficult position.

Both parties, the PM/Government and the PAD, refuse to accept/listen to his suggestions outlined in the four-point plan after his meeting earlier today with other important (business) leaders and military.

The question is if he is able to stand by his words:

" "The way out through taking control over the Country by the military is a closed door and no more...This way is barred up by many walls, and no one should try to take this way."[1]

— Gen Anupong replied to the media asking how he will remedy the political crisis in Thailand.

From: "อนุพงษ์พุด หยุด...สงครามเผาเมือง". (2551, 3 กันยายน). โพสต์ทูเดย์. หน้าพิเศษ 2. Sorry, not in English.

It is not an option for either the Government nor the Military/General Anupong to leave the country in this kind of mess and accept/let the PAD continue to block the 18th most important airport in the world: Suvarnabhumi Airport.

The move by General Anupong to try and convince parties to accept a dissolution of the House is world news; maybe some do not realize it yet but this news is published in ALL languages of the world from minor to major ones.

The problem wit this situation is that the vast majority of people outside Thailand do not understand the powers behind the present situation and are condemning the PAD.

The PAD is creating a very bad image for Thailand and it is odd that PAD's supporting middle class and elite accept, thus far, the ongoing situation of the blockade of the airport.

I wonder for how long the elite will accept and support this blockade...

PAD's earlier blocking of tourist- (Phuket) and some minor important other airports was a deed which attracted the international press for just a little while but is long forgotten.

The blockade of Government House was a non-item in the West (apart from some small news articles) and people are not interested in a group of protesters anymore, the same as most people shake their heads when another bomb killed dozens of people in a war country like Iraq or Afghanistan. People are immune for that kind of news and it better is, otherwise we would get mad by every single message of bad news.

This time however they are creating an unacceptable situation for hundreds of million of viewers in the outside world. The damage already done is enormous and did no good to the country whatsoever.

The point is that Thailand is no Iraq or Afghanistan.

Thailand, in the eyes of dozens of millions of viewers, is an attractive HOLIDAY country and Thailand, in the eyes of BUSINESS INVESTORS, was a healthy business-climate-country to invest money in and build factories and make money. Believe me; that's done and finished for the largest part.

On top of the ongoing worldwide crisis, the present situation is a death step in the back for Thailand

This is NOT a battle between the PAD and the Government for a better Thailand; this is -STILL- an ongoing battle between two formers friends; two business tycoons fighting each other till they have destroyed each other over the backs of 65 million people in Thailand.

It's a disgusting ongoing war between these two -former- tycoons and close friends and in the end there are only TWO losers to count PLUS 65 million people.

But, to think that the problem will be solved IF the present government steps down (forced or not) -and open the door to (again) new elections- is a misconception.

General Anupong is not in a position, to be envied, and he knows it.

Interesting photo:

6 months ago: Thailand's ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra -R- gives a traditional greeting to Privy Council President Prem Tinsulanonda (L) their first meeting since the September 19, 2006 coup, during the funeral of -in WHITE uniform- Army chief Anupong Paochinda's mother at the temple in Bangkok late May 29, 2008. The 58-year-old former Thai premier returned to Bangkok in late February after his allies swept back into power in elections late last year.

We live in interesting times indeed but I'm afraid that VERY few of the 65 million Thai are already realizing what drama will be unfolding in their wallets...in 2009, when the financial/economic crisis will be knocking on Thai doors in full force.

And, the OUTCOME of touching the -already very thin- wallets of the -poor- Thai is something NOBODY wants to foresee in the future....not even General Anupong nor PAD's Sondhi Limthongkul.....

The only one, of the three, who's probably foreseeing that coming financial drama -in the wallets of the poor- is the other man in the battle between Sondhi and....yes, indeed that's him, on the right of the photo.

Thailand is facing very difficult times, much more difficult than many here on TV, and the outside world, realize.

May Buddha help the people of Thailand for their own best and benefit, not just for the middle class, military and elite powers.

LaoPo

[Thai at Heart]

Joe --- you may not know it but the 30 baht health scheme was not a Thaksin thing and the village loan scheme has created more debt and is causing far more issues than it has helped with!

Most of the pro-PAD school teachers that live near me have been lent more money from the government, because they are school teachers, than they can ever pay back in two life times creating more debt and causing issue also. Does this bother you? They have been lent millions of baht that will never be paid back. The farmers have been lent 20,000 baht. What is your point?

Joe, the tactic you are taking is not answering the things put to you ... it is trying to shift the answer/blame. You seem to be suggesting that teachers are Pro PAD (why?) and why have they been lent money from the government? and did they not come from the same communities that the farmers do?

but the question about the farmers remains If your village loan scheme creates a debt that eventually causes the farmer to lose his land did it help or hurt the farmer? (The teachers I know that teach up-country in government schools come from up-country. Are you suggesting that no more loans should be given to teachers? How is that an answer?

I have stated that the teachers living near me are pro-PAD. I have no idea why the government would lend them amounts of money they could never pay back. I would like to know why also. They come from the elite from the same provinces as the farmers. You are suggesting that no more loans should be given to farmers that they can never pay them back while asking me why no more loans should be given to teachers that they can never pay back. What is the difference? The PAD teachers around me have got loans they could never pay back for their second or third car, gambling debt, young girl friends, ect. The farmers have got the loans for rice seed , fertilizer, cows ect. to survive. The teachers owe millions and the farmers owe 20,000 baht. The pro-PAD teachers are going to Bangkok to the rallys complaining about the farmers and PPP.

Civil servants, teachers and myriad others have always had access to discretionary lending. This is not a recent phenomenon. One of the few perks of job, or could you manage to buy a house on a teachers salary?

[Bangyai]

It's fairly obvious that the army is in charge of the country. They are asked/told/requested/ordered to stop demonstrations and they decline. Calling in the military and not causing violence aren't mutually exclusive. The military can surely attempt to carry out the orders without using violence and they have the numbers to do that. Of course, it's always risky to have the military act, but it seems necessary.

This is beyond the ability of police.

And as for elections. Maybe it's a good idea, but what if the same people win? They still have a lot of support and now they also have a fair amount of sympathy.

Bear in mind that the coup was a financial windfall for the military- it would be pretty dumb of them to be seen as even mildly condemning the very people (PAD) who essentially paved the driveways on which the General's new BMWs are parked. There are issues of loyalty and gratitude involved here- issues that transcend principles and politics. (Recall Sondhi's bitterness over being sidelined for a place in the Sarauyuth government).

Agreed. Two good, well reasoned posts blaze.

[jdinasia]

I don't buy the story in the USA. Obama being black and coming from a family on food stamps is now President. I do not think this could happen as easy in Thailand.

Chuan Leekpai's origins and upbringing were fairly humble.

There is always the exception but is not as easy here. I know several girls in the village that are gifted and excellant students that can not afford the 40,000 baht (which is illegal to charge) fee to get into the best school here. Their potential will not be reached. In the USA all kids get the same chance regardless on financial status.

Not true joe

In the USA ---Inner city schools are notoriously bad in most cases as are rural schools and SEVERELY underfunded compared to white sub-urban middle class schools. The "BEST" schools are not obtainable even to the middle class in most instances.

There is a hotline to report schools for extorting 'fees'

[JoeInSurin]

I have stated that the teachers living near me are pro-PAD. I have no idea why the government would lend them amounts of money they could never pay back. I would like to know why also. They come from the elite from the same provinces as the farmers. You are suggesting that no more loans should be given to farmers that they can never pay them back while asking me why no more loans should be given to teachers that they can never pay back. What is the difference? The PAD teachers around me have got loans they could never pay back for their second or third car, gambling debt, young girl friends, ect. The farmers have got the loans for rice seed , fertilizer, cows ect. to survive. The teachers owe millions and the farmers owe 20,000 baht. The pro-PAD teachers are going to Bangkok to the rallys complaining about the farmers and PPP.

joe ....

What teachers rec'd millions of baht in loans? and for what? Oh, you say you don't know. is there any evidence that any teachers were given loans of "Millions"? I don't know af any but a few teachers in BKK that have "millions of baht". Teaching is not an ELITE job and the elite do not need the loans you claim they have gotten. (but certainly wouldn't be teachers) If you have an "elite" that chose teaching it would be because they truly desired to. You are making claims that I have NEVER once heard before about teachers and loans! (Yes some upper level academics have soundly been pro PAD (or at least vehemently anti-Thaksin, but average teachers? hardly 'elite' people!

I have not suggested no more loans be given to farmers. However I will now do so! No loans should be given to farmers! They should get assistance without the need to pay it back IF there is real need not generated by their own neglect. Your claims of what farmers have used loans for are very likely valid but there are many reports about the loans being used for TV's mobile phones etc ... which is why I think that the answer is NOT to throw money at the situation leading people further into debt until they lose the land they have held for ages! Assistance? absolutely! cash? never!

Here in Surin teaching I consider elite being most people are farmers. If you don't know that it is easy for teachers to get loans you are misinformed. Do some research. I don't have time to school you. The people don't have millions of baht. They owe millions of baht the same as the farmers owe 20,000 baht. The only evidence I have is what they have told me. Why would anyone tell me they were in debt to the government for these loans? Would this impress me?

[animatic]

Joe --- you may not know it but the 30 baht health scheme was not a Thaksin thing and the village loan scheme has created more debt and is causing far more issues than it has helped with!

Most of the pro-PAD school teachers that live near me have been lent more money from the government, because they are school teachers, than they can ever pay back in two life times creating more debt and causing issue also. Does this bother you? They have been lent millions of baht that will never be paid back. The farmers have been lent 20,000 baht. What is your point?

Joe, the tactic you are taking is not answering the things put to you ... it is trying to shift the answer/blame. You seem to be suggesting that teachers are Pro PAD (why?) and why have they been lent money from the government? and did they not come from the same communities that the farmers do?

but the question about the farmers remains If your village loan scheme creates a debt that eventually causes the farmer to lose his land did it help or hurt the farmer? (The teachers I know that teach up-country in government schools come from up-country. Are you suggesting that no more loans should be given to teachers? How is that an answer?

It's and old, old story keeping the workers in a financial bind to control them....

Work 16 hours and what a ya get

Another day older and deeper in debt.

Saint Peter can't hear me when I call.

I sold my soul to the company store.

I don't buy the story in the USA. Obama being black and coming from a family on food stamps is now President. I do not think this could happen as easy in Thailand.

Has nothing to do with Obama, he wasn't from there then.

This happened all across USA in mining towns and large businesses company towns.

See Mr. Potter in It's A Wonderful Life, or John Henry or

Coal Miners Daughter or any number of references.

That song was a huge hit in the south because it made many think of grand dad.

Also happened in Welsh villages and across the coal country of England too.

Well the Thai world is closer to that time still, only just pulling out of it lately...

Edited November 26, 2008 by animatic

[JoeInSurin]

I don't buy the story in the USA. Obama being black and coming from a family on food stamps is now President. I do not think this could happen as easy in Thailand.

Chuan Leekpai's origins and upbringing were fairly humble.

There is always the exception but is not as easy here. I know several girls in the village that are gifted and excellant students that can not afford the 40,000 baht (which is illegal to charge) fee to get into the best school here. Their potential will not be reached. In the USA all kids get the same chance regardless on financial status.

Not true joe

In the USA ---Inner city schools are notoriously bad in most cases as are rural schools and SEVERELY underfunded compared to white sub-urban middle class schools. The "BEST" schools are not obtainable even to the middle class in most instances.

There is a hotline to report schools for extorting 'fees'

One family here in Surin tried to fight paying the tea money to get into the same school as my wifes daughter. He was asked by the courts to get reciepts from other people that had paid the fees. Of course no one got any receipt. Then he was asked to get people to come to court to say they had been charged these fees. Of course no one wanted to come forward. His kids can't get in any school now.

The schools in the USA are by district. If there are people living in apartartments or million dollar homes they all go to the same school. You are correct that some poor states have worse schools but they still have scholarships for the outstanding students.

[animatic]

I don't buy the story in the USA. Obama being black and coming from a family on food stamps is now President. I do not think this could happen as easy in Thailand.

Chuan Leekpai's origins and upbringing were fairly humble.

There is always the exception but is not as easy here. I know several girls in the village that are gifted and excellant students that can not afford the 40,000 baht (which is illegal to charge) fee to get into the best school here. Their potential will not be reached. In the USA all kids get the same chance regardless on financial status.

In theory yes,

in reality that is utter <deleted>!.

[jdinasia]

Joe, you are the very first person that I know of that has claimed teaching is the province of the "elites" particularly in anything other than the absolutely best universities in Thailand. You are also making claims about millions of baht in loans to teachers that you are not backing up with any evidence. (Yes some government employees can get loans for homes easier than farmers, it is based upon many things such as job security etc not to mention those loans are available for homes or a car etc. They are expected to be repaid and not made in situations where there is no possibility of repayment. My partner is from a province where farming is the largest employment sector. (He's not from a farming family by far! They have real money but in terms of Thai society they are not 'elite'.)

You seem to have glossed over the facts that schools in the USA are not all equal. I will not argue that schools here violate the laws regarding extra 'fees'. Tell your family friends to try again as a new campaign has been launched from BKK against that practice.

(mods --- can you leave this for a few minutes before deleting it for being so far off-topic that it is laughable? It's just another anti-PAD thing from a Thaksin fan!)

[Bkkboet]

So there are a few options to resolve the immediate crisis

1. Somchai decides to disolve parliment

2. Dems MP resign and force house disolution

3. Somchai resigns

4. Army disperses PAD with tear gas

5. Coup

number 4 seems the only option that respects the democratic process.

Actually all but #5 respect the democratic process.

To anyone with even an ounce of political education , democracy and military coups are irreconciable antagonisms .

You don't get it do you ?

He does, that's why he said it. Obviously you don't get it. Why I bother.

[JoeInSurin]

Joe, you are the very first person that I know of that has claimed teaching is the province of the "elites" particularly in anything other than the absolutely best universities in Thailand. You are also making claims about millions of baht in loans to teachers that you are not backing up with any evidence. (Yes some government employees can get loans for homes easier than farmers, it is based upon many things such as job security etc not to mention those loans are available for homes or a car etc. They are expected to be repaid and not made in situations where there is no possibility of repayment. My partner is from a province where farming is the largest employment sector. (He's not from a farming family by far! They have real money but in terms of Thai society they are not 'elite'.)

You seem to have glossed over the facts that schools in the USA are not all equal. I will not argue that schools here violate the laws regarding extra 'fees'. Tell your family friends to try again as a new campaign has been launched from BKK against that practice.

(mods --- can you leave this for a few minutes before deleting it for being so far off-topic that it is laughable? It's just another anti-PAD thing from a Thaksin fan!)

I will go to the government and request copies of the loans to give to you?? The teachers are elite compared to the farmers. Bill gates it elite compared to Taksin. It is all relative. I welcome you to come here and meet my neighbors yourself and talk to them. I see you are back to the laughable "LOL". I never said that are all schools in the US are equal if you can read. I said there is opportunity and scholarships at all schools. I can see you will never qualify for one.