Tv Members And Political Correctness

[GuestHouse]

Bonobo.... did you or did you not claim that the teacher was dismissed because of Political Correctness calling for her to be dismissed?

And then when you provide a link to the actual events we find the teacher was not dismissed. We do find that the teacher and her family where assailed with bigoted and racist comments. I've read those comments I don't reckognise them as Politically Correct.

The Teacher WAS NOT dismissed, Political Correctness played no part in a Dismissal that DID NOT HAPPEN.

She continued to teach this lesson for a number of years before leaving teaching to give the lesson outside of schools. Political Correctness neither dismissed her nor did it prevent her from giving the lesson.

YOUR rendition of the story was little more than Hyperbole.

As many times as you like - Political Correctness did not sack nor did it silence the teacher in the example YOU brought to this board.

(You perhaps should have read the article before posting the link).

[Super Hans]

Of course you hear the argument that free-speech must be protected and that allowing the hate-mongers a platform will eventually lead to them realising the error of their ways as they see reason. This is not my belief.

Finally, the crux of the matter. The coalition of nutters foisting this agenda on the vast majority of us that don't want or need it, think they are doing it for our own good.

Imposing ideology on others is called fascism, innit?

Buchanan says in his book The Death of the West: "Political Correctness is Cultural Marxism, a regime to punish dissent and to stigmatize social heresy as the Inquisition punished religious heresy. Its trademark is intolerance."(p. 89).

I'd say extremism.

I haven't read that particularly book, but would urge the PC thugs out there to extend their reading material a little. I often look on in amazement when they contend all the world's problems can be solved if we just, like, learn to love each other, man.

If they believe this they need to learn a little more about history.

I think that it is interesting that you would both quote a book by a man who admits that he admired Hitler.

The genius of the PC thug.

I say I've not read the book, yet get labeled a nazi. It is pitiful devices like this that turn so many people off your cause. You do more to promote racism than the National Front.

Why would you want people to read Pat Buchanan if you haven't even read him? Why would an obviously British person want others to read a book by a man who has great sympathy for the IRA and blames Britain for World War 2????

Jesus wept! Can't you read either? Where did I say anything about reading any Pat Buchanan?

Why are YOU so keen to out people as racists? Come on, admit it - you LOVE it, don't you? Gives you a right kick I'll bet. I have often observed the biggest PC thugs used to be the biggest racists...

Yes, I can read. If you were not referring to mahtin's post and the book he mentioned then why quote his mention of the book? And why then suggest that people read more? I suggest that you don't quote somebody if you are not referring to that particular post; as it is confusing.

Hmm. Still think you just can't read.

[Super Hans]

As many times as you like - Political Correctness did not sack nor did it silence the teacher in the example YOU brought to this board.

Maybe it didn't, but it has ruined the education system in the UK.

[DC1066]

As many times as you like - Political Correctness did not sack nor did it silence the teacher in the example YOU brought to this board.

Maybe it didn't, but it has ruined the education system in the UK.

Wot iss rong with educationel sistem in uK, it's dun fyne buy mee??

[rgs2001uk]

Does thread remind anyone else of Fahrenheit 451? To me it is incredible that all our fears of a totalitarian state were implied to come from a right wing sectarian government.

[dumball]

Of course you hear the argument that free-speech must be protected and that allowing the hate-mongers a platform will eventually lead to them realising the error of their ways as they see reason. This is not my belief.

Finally, the crux of the matter. The coalition of nutters foisting this agenda on the vast majority of us that don't want or need it, think they are doing it for our own good.

Imposing ideology on others is called fascism, innit?

Buchanan says in his book The Death of the West: "Political Correctness is Cultural Marxism, a regime to punish dissent and to stigmatize social heresy as the Inquisition punished religious heresy. Its trademark is intolerance."(p. 89).

I'd say extremism.

I haven't read that particularly book, but would urge the PC thugs out there to extend their reading material a little. I often look on in amazement when they contend all the world's problems can be solved if we just, like, learn to love each other, man.

If they believe this they need to learn a little more about history.

I think that it is interesting that you would both quote a book by a man who admits that he admired Hitler.

The genius of the PC thug.

I say I've not read the book, yet get labeled a nazi. It is pitiful devices like this that turn so many people off your cause. You do more to promote racism than the National Front.

Why would you want people to read Pat Buchanan if you haven't even read him? Why would an obviously British person want others to read a book by a man who has great sympathy for the IRA and blames Britain for World War 2????

Jesus wept! Can't you read either? Where did I say anything about reading any Pat Buchanan?

Why are YOU so keen to out people as racists? Come on, admit it - you LOVE it, don't you? Gives you a right kick I'll bet. I have often observed the biggest PC thugs used to be the biggest racists...

Yes, I can read. If you were not referring to mahtin's post and the book he mentioned then why quote his mention of the book? And why then suggest that people read more? I suggest that you don't quote somebody if you are not referring to that particular post; as it is confusing.

Hmm. Still think you just can't read.

Hey , how can i post a pertinant article i wrote on PC ? It is more on whom fits whom in the written scenario .

[spud1]

I replied to the OP's subject when this (troll) thread was in it's infancy with regards to a school banning children singing christmas carols.Reading posts of the pro PC, I conclude they must be all extremists.Has to insinuate persons who object to some PC actions are racist or sexist is surely a negative representation to the cause of PC.In respect of my original reply to the OP,could one of you pro PC totarians enlighten me to the positive effects of this type of PC behaviour.

[dumball]

And so , how do i post my article , have to retract it from files .

[GuestHouse]

I replied to the OP's subject when this (troll) thread was in it's infancy with regards to a school banning children singing christmas carols.Reading posts of the pro PC, I conclude they must be all extremists.Has to insinuate persons who object to some PC actions are racist or sexist is surely a negative representation to the cause of PC.In respect of my original reply to the OP,could one of you pro PC totarians enlighten me to the positive effects of this type of PC behaviour.

That’s odd, you now regard this as a Troll thread, a term you objected to in your second post, why then your change in mind over a thread you have contributed so much to?

You ask here about Racism, yet you where the first person to mention immigration and racism in this thread, you opened with an accusation that the PC Brigade only cause to make racial tension worse (for which you give no evidence), and continued to object to your traditions being changed so as not to offend immigrants. Anti PC and Race, you brought it to the discussion.

Thaibeachlove (openly anti PC) brought sexism to the discussion with his accusation that Political Correctness was the last refuge of man hating women.

It is not that those who support Political Correctness need to accuse those who do not of anything – The anti PC brigade rush to confess their own ‘issues’.

Has banning religion from schools done anything positive – Well yes, removes the religious indoctrination of children from public schools. If you are of a particular faith and want your children to be of that faith – teach them about it at home and at your local church, chapel, mosque, temple, synagogue or gathering in the forest.

[Huey]

Anyone who models himself after Huey P. Newton and the Black Panther Party would be pretty certain to agree with Garro. I'm sure that you two have a lot in common!

...

Huey P. Newton, I remember the day he was gunned down in West Oakland, about 200 meters from my parked car. I also remember being the recipient of the free breakfast program for kids with skint parents. Great hot chocolate!

TheWalkingMan

LOL , Actually I don't model myself after anyone. While I respect Huey P. Newton and his work, My avatar is comedic in origin. It's Huey Freeman from the Boondocks

, one of my favorite comedies

[PhilHarries]

Well this very emotive thread has banged on about sexism and racism ad nauseum and even found time to mention those with disabilities. It's not touched on ageism, but then us old wrinklies are tough old boots and the world is finding we still have our uses (like we can do the <deleted>' job), nor the 'ism that affects gay people (sorry don't know the term). But these things are covered by national/international legislation (except for the gay 'ism?) and these issues don't really need the current fad of PC police raids. The fact that they still exist is down to huMAN natURE as BT would put it and will disappear given time.

As has been pointed out by a few, myself included, it's not the mainstream equality movements that people object to but the side stream idiocy that only serves to marginalise the minorities and expose them to ridicule. Time and time again we read, and I posted an example, of PC extremism like banning Christmas decorations generating bad feelings amonget the majority and embarrassment and fear amongst the minorities.

As I tried to point out before we need to nurture a true multicultural society everywhere. A society where the Christians can celebrate Christmas and Easter and the Muslims can celebrate Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha and all other faiths similarly together without predujice nor fear but in a true atmosphere of mutual respect. A society where a black lesbian woman has the same opportunities, not more nor less, as a white caucasian man.

Renaming blackboards and venetian blinds, changing the words in Christmas carols or banning people from flying their national flag does nothing towards generating the atmosphere where such a society could develope.

I can do no better than to quote (ish - from memory) the councellor in my earlier post "this kind of thing sets race relations back 20 years".

The other aspect of this rabid correctism is that it can often generate a negative backlash. Like the anti-smoking campaigns have generated a band of smokers who are saying "<deleted> you, it's my life and I'll smoke all I want".

[bonobo]

Well this very emotive thread has banged on about sexism and racism ad nauseum and even found time to mention those with disabilities. It's not touched on ageism, but then us old wrinklies are tough old boots and the world is finding we still have our uses (like we can do the <deleted>' job), nor the 'ism that affects gay people (sorry don't know the term). But these things are covered by national/international legislation (except for the gay 'ism?) and these issues don't really need the current fad of PC police raids. The fact that they still exist is down to huMAN natURE as BT would put it and will disappear given time.

As has been pointed out by a few, myself included, it's not the mainstream equality movements that people object to but the side stream idiocy that only serves to marginalise the minorities and expose them to ridicule. Time and time again we read, and I posted an example, of PC extremism like banning Christmas decorations generating bad feelings amonget the majority and embarrassment and fear amongst the minorities.

As I tried to point out before we need to nurture a true multicultural society everywhere. A society where the Christians can celebrate Christmas and Easter and the Muslims can celebrate Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha and all other faiths similarly together without predujice nor fear but in a true atmosphere of mutual respect. A society where a black lesbian woman has the same opportunities, not more nor less, as a white caucasian man.

Renaming blackboards and venetian blinds, changing the words in Christmas carols or banning people from flying their national flag does nothing towards generating the atmosphere where such a society could develope.

I can do no better than to quote (ish - from memory) the councellor in my earlier post "this kind of thing sets race relations back 20 years".

The other aspect of this rabid correctism is that it can often generate a negative backlash. Like the anti-smoking campaigns have generated a band of smokers who are saying "<deleted> you, it's my life and I'll smoke all I want".

 Very well and eloquently posted.  

[Huey]

Well this very emotive thread has banged on about sexism and racism ad nauseum and even found time to mention those with disabilities. It's not touched on ageism, but then us old wrinklies are tough old boots and the world is finding we still have our uses (like we can do the <deleted>' job), nor the 'ism that affects gay people (sorry don't know the term). But these things are covered by national/international legislation (except for the gay 'ism?) and these issues don't really need the current fad of PC police raids. The fact that they still exist is down to huMAN natURE as BT would put it and will disappear given time.

As has been pointed out by a few, myself included, it's not the mainstream equality movements that people object to but the side stream idiocy that only serves to marginalise the minorities and expose them to ridicule. Time and time again we read, and I posted an example, of PC extremism like banning Christmas decorations generating bad feelings amonget the majority and embarrassment and fear amongst the minorities.

As I tried to point out before we need to nurture a true multicultural society everywhere. A society where the Christians can celebrate Christmas and Easter and the Muslims can celebrate Eid al-Fitr and Eid al-Adha and all other faiths similarly together without predujice nor fear but in a true atmosphere of mutual respect. A society where a black lesbian woman has the same opportunities, not more nor less, as a white caucasian man.

Renaming blackboards and venetian blinds, changing the words in Christmas carols or banning people from flying their national flag does nothing towards generating the atmosphere where such a society could develope.

I can do no better than to quote (ish - from memory) the councellor in my earlier post "this kind of thing sets race relations back 20 years".

The other aspect of this rabid correctism is that it can often generate a negative backlash. Like the anti-smoking campaigns have generated a band of smokers who are saying "<deleted> you, it's my life and I'll smoke all I want".

I can't speak about race relations in many countries outside the US. However PC has definitely NOT set race relations back here in the States, if such was the case then Obama would have never been elected. And as for tobacco use, smokers would never have been blocked out of so many public areas. If it were not for PC pressure.

I don't know where your talking about where people can't fly what ever flag they want...I'm in Florida at the moment and you see Cuban flags and Confederate flags around everywhere. Christmas songs are the same as I remember them as a kid, 20+ years ago...Nat King Cole and all that.

[GuestHouse]

A good post Phil, but you are skipping over the very positive changes that Political Correctness has helped bring about and focussing on the extremes, which we have seen in this thread are often misquoted, or 'creatively remembered'. You are correct we have, in most places, laws against a range of isms - each of which has been hard fought for and hard fought against. I argue that we have the Women's Movement and the Black Rights Movement to thank for this, it is they that opened the door to personal rights and legislation against other forms of prejudice.

Agism did get a mention above, it is also one of the later prejudices to be tackled, and quite rightly so, its a shame it took so long to get around to.

Playing a positive part in all of this is Political Correctness and the examination of language and attitudes, how they impact thought, policy, individual action and opportunity.

You are right too to mention the range of isms, Sexism and Racism in particular, they do feature greatly in this discussion, brought up by TV members who when asked about Political Correctness leap into their own issues with respect to Women and Immigrants.

Trink is almost certainly right - huMan natURE it might be, and I sincerely hope that you are right, that we get there in the end.

But we will not achieve respect and equal opportunity by legislation alone - we need each of us to change our attitudes, the way we think about others, the way we speak about others and the way we address others. Political Correctness is right at the heart of that change.

The over zealous application of Political Correctness by some school governor or local official is of course deserving of ridicule, as is the 'Creative Remembering' slights and ills that never occurred.

But let us not take our mind off what Political Correctness has achieved.

Maybe the odd school here and there is not having a Christmas Service this year, but then the 'supporters' at football games are no longer hurling racial abuse and bananas at black players any more. Undoubtedly some miss the fun of all this and feel it a restriction on their freedoms.

Take the kids the the church for the Christmas service, they can enjoy it there. You can even enjoy taking your kids to the football game these days.

Edited December 18, 2008 by GuestHouse

[bonobo]

OK, to take this example out of the discussion (and I still feel it warrants mention), the Iowa school system, at least the Des Moines Public School System, can no longer teach anything having to do with religion, at least at the primary school level. So our lighting a menora or fasting for one day during Ramadan is no longer allowed. Hence, my "contention" as posed by Guesthouse is a fairly logical and reasonable contention to make.

Either that, or the citizens of Des Moines are applying the segregation of State and Religion, again nothing to do with 'Political Correctness'

Teaching about other religions does not contravene the doctrine of separation of church and state. This doctrine is a legal and political principle derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . .." Basically, that means that there is no official religion on the country, and the government cannot interfere with anyone's religious beliefs.

To equate that with a school not being allowed to teach that there are various religions is a far stretch, one to which no legal scholar would agree. The Des Moines schools, when I was a student, never taught you should follow this religion or that. It merely taught that there is a religion called Islam which follows the teaching of Mohammed, and that there is a religion called Judaism where people light a menora during Hannukkah, and so on.

[So1DoG]

This is a very long running troll thread.

I love it keep it going, afterall thaivisa is becoming very PC itself.

Refreshing change

[bonobo]

A good post Phil, but you are skipping over the very positive changes that Political Correctness has helped bring about and focussing on the extremes, which we have seen in this thread are often misquoted, or 'creatively remembered'. You are correct we have, in most places, laws against a range of isms - each of which has been hard fought for and hard fought against. I argue that we have the Women's Movement and the Black Rights Movement to thank for this, it is they that opened the door to personal rights and legislation against other forms of prejudice.

Agism did get a mention above, it is also one of the later prejudices to be tackled, and quite rightly so, its a shame it took so long to get around to.

Playing a positive part in all of this is Political Correctness and the examination of language and attitudes, how they impact thought, policy, individual action and opportunity.

Someone else can correct me if they feel different, but I don't think most posters think that PC has not done a lot of good for society. We have progressed far over the last 50 years, and being PC has had much to do with that. Your quote above on the positive part of PC is a very valid point, and one which I don't think can garner much arguement.

It is just that many people think that PC can go too far sometimes.

[bonobo]

This thread has generated a lot of interest and many heartfelt posts (which is not always the case here in TV.)

I was mulling over the various posts in my mind, and I have a few observations.

1. Extreme or excessive action by the PC crowd (and it does exist) is not nearly as harmful as extreme or excessive reaction by the opposite side of the spectrum. To use one posted example, to interject a Muslim woman into the Robin Hood story may seem ridiculous to anyone with a smidgen of historical knowledge, but the "harm" in this is more of an intellectual annoyance. While extreme action taken by hate groups such as the God Hates Fags organization can have a lasting, real harm.

2. I think one thing which annoys many people is that some rabid PC activists are forcing their own beliefs on others without a basis of fact. The posted example of the Muslim leader saying that while they will not eat pork, they can still sing about the three little pigs is one such case. Another example concerns the movement to remove American Indian names from sports teams. In California (my home state and a bastion of PC), Stanford Univeristy changed its team name from the Indians to The Cardinal, all for PC reasons. This started a movement for some PC groups to try and change all sports names, and universities, which tend to be a little more liberal than the population at large, started to comply, especially with the NCAA directly asking for some to change their names. Enter Florida State University, the home of the Seminoles. The president of the university refused to budge on this issue, and one of the big reasons is that the Seminole tribe rather enjoy their association with the school. They find is a way to honor and respect their people. So if the Seminole people themselves like the nickname, who are some California activists to say different?

If people of African descent feel that "Negro" is not approriate either due to historical reasons or that there is a negative connotation to the word, then I will be happy to use "African-American" or whatever term is desired. Or if Horsedoctor here in TV feels that "girls" is demeaning and insulting to her, then I will try to change my terminology. But I do take issue on people deciding what is offensive or not for other people, as if others are somehow not able to determine that for themselves.

3. It seems to me that the "pro-PC" posters here, and I use that term reluctantly as I think most posters are "pro-PC," just not pro excessive or ridiculous PC, keep trying to equate PC with racism with a little sexism and religion thrown in. PC is far more than that. And when given examples of excessive PC, they either call it imaginary or completely ignore those examples, focussing on examples where they think they can find fault. Even then they read into post what they want and ignore what they don't want to see. And this feeds into the feelings of those who believe that PC can go to excess that PC supporters are all rabid, dictatorial extremists. Not all heartfelt PC supporters are extremists of this ilk, but post as have been made here can give the impression that this is the case, especially when there are already preconceived notions that is true.

[PhilHarries]

I don't know where your talking about where people can't fly what ever flag they want...I'm in Florida at the moment and you see Cuban flags and Confederate flags around everywhere. Christmas songs are the same as I remember them as a kid, 20+ years ago...Nat King Cole and all that.

It happened in the UK during one of the football competitions, either Europe or World I can't recall, that some councils tried to ban people flying, or showing in their windows or on cars, the English flag of the cross of saint George. Of course this was due to some over zealous peanut brain and I think it got resolved much like the Christmas lights issue posted earlier.

But the point is that it provided yet another opportunity for the xenophobic gutter press to have their front page rants about the destruction of mother England and "our" beloved culture. The fact that in the UK if you fly the national flag you are viewed as either a member of some right wing nationalistic thug group or a completely eccentric nutter was kind of glossed over.

I was on about Christmas Carols, Good King Wenceslas et al, rather than the Frank's White Christmas genre. There has been some rewording of the old traditional carols to bring them up to date and/or make them PC. I can't recall the exact details, will try and search them out, but one of the changes was taking out reference to "the boy king" or similar and replacing it with a gender neutral term.

I take GH's point that PC is at the heart of the change in attitude but it has to be careful not to go to extremes in attempting to effect this. A lot of the people involved want to see change right NOW so they can bask in the limelight of their glorious victory. Well it would be nice if that could be done, as it also would be nice to load a delegation into the Tardis and send them back 200,000 years to east Africa where it all began and get things on the right track from day one. But neither are going to happen so it's just down to chipping away at the monolith. Water, one of the softest compounds on Earth can wear away granite, one of the hardest, but it has to be given time.

These things, no matter how frustrating it may be, do take time and, most importantly, it needs an attitude of give and take on both sides. Taking one issue aside, what is the point of the Christians gagging their vocal minorities and bending over backwards to accommodate the Muslims if the moderates of that faith do nothing to reign in their extremists? Their violent minority only see any move to accommodate their faith as a sign of weakness in the infidel hordes.

<edit : tyop >

Edited December 18, 2008 by PhilHarries

[Gary A]

A black friend remarks;

"I am NOT an African American, I'm an American I was born here and have nothing to do with Africa. If you want to be more descriptive, call me a black American".

[Geekfreaklover]

A guy sunbathes in the nud_e in his garden. The woman next door looks over the fence sees him. He gets arrested for public exposure.

A women sun bathes in the nud_e in her garden. The man next door looks over the fence sees her. He gets arrested for being a peeping tom.

[So1DoG]

A black friend remarks;

"I am NOT an African American, I'm an American I was born here and have nothing to do with Africa. If you want to be more descriptive, call me a black American".

Well that the goverments fault isnt it for...

Please tick the appropraite box for example... british asian???????? WFT?

If i got a residence or even thai passport would i be Thai british? Not at all i would be british.

Jeez to much nonsense.

[onzestan]

Maybe the odd school here and there is not having a Christmas Service this year, but then the 'supporters' at football games are no longer hurling racial abuse and bananas at black players any more. Undoubtedly some miss the fun of all this and feel it a restriction on their freedoms.

Take the kids the the church for the Christmas service, they can enjoy it there. You can even enjoy taking your kids to the football game these days.

I think you have a problem with christianity, my country has been predominantly christian for ages, so much so that christianity is entwined in all walks of life, traditions, behaviour, rule of law and even in our food.

Not having the possibility to witness or be part of a traditional christmas party in your school, because some people of other faith might be offended is going to far I believe. They have a choice to not attend.

I ask you what is offensive about children enjoying a chrismas atmosphere, if these same children have to eat Halal food in the school cantina. I would agree if both options are available so the children have a choice, but they don't, it's Halal or nothing.

And as for not imposing signs of your faith to people of other persuasions I ask you who is the guilty part?

And don't you think that comparing a football game to a traditional christmas celebration which happens only once a year is taking it a bit to far. Afterall isn't christmas supposed to be about peace on earth?

Merry Christmas

onzestan

[bonobo]

There is a tv personality in the US named Bill Maher, and his talk show was named "Politically Incorrect with Bill Maher." He was famous for getting booted from ABC when he opined that the 9-11 attackers were not cowards, as all the pundits at the time were calling them. He said they were evil men, but to call them cowards is wrong and to do so helps paint an incorrect picture of them and thus our undertanding of what motivates a man like that. (He now has a cable show called "Real TIme with Bill Maher.")

Anyway, I saw him on television being interviewed, and he mentioned that alot of the press is being very careful about Obama so as not to seem racist. He argues that this is in fact a form of racism. If the American people think that Obama is capable of serving as president, then he is certainly capable of weathering the same attacks, actual attacks or humorous jabs, as every other president in recent years has suffered at the hands of the press. He contends that the presidency transcends race, and he has to be treated as the President of the United States, not as a black man. Politcos should attack him when appropriate, and comedians need to make fun of him as well, and not put him out-of-bounds because of his race. He seems to be a pretty capable and grounded man; he can handle it.

Pretty astute thinking, in my humble opinion.

[GuestHouse]

3. It seems to me that the "pro-PC" posters here, and I use that term reluctantly as I think most posters are "pro-PC," just not pro excessive or ridiculous PC, keep trying to equate PC with racism with a little sexism and religion thrown in.

Read the posts above again and you'll find that Racism and Sexism + unwarranted attacks on female posters came, not from those who are pro-Political Correctness, but from those who are Anti-Political Correctness. As I commented early in the thread, it is clear that many members are unable to give their views on Political Correctness without launching into a rant exposing their 'Women' and 'Immigrtation/Race' issues.

--

Onzestan, be assured I have no problem with Christianity.

--

Is Obama being given an easy ride because of his race, or is it simply the general feeling of relief at having got rid of the current incumbant.

A 'honeymoon' period is quite normal. GWB enjoyed one (spending his time playing golf etc), why should not a President Elect who was voted in with such a wide margin of aproval also enjoy a honeymoon period.

Race is an issue in the US and in time we'll hear how the President Elect is not above racits attacks.

[Ijustwannateach]

Guesthouse, just wanted to say I'm with you all the way on this issue, so haven't felt the need to speak up too much!

[bonobo]

3. It seems to me that the "pro-PC" posters here, and I use that term reluctantly as I think most posters are "pro-PC," just not pro excessive or ridiculous PC, keep trying to equate PC with racism with a little sexism and religion thrown in.

Read the posts above again and you'll find that Racism and Sexism + unwarranted attacks on female posters came, not from those who are pro-Political Correctness, but from those who are Anti-Political Correctness. As I commented early in the thread, it is clear that many members are unable to give their views on Political Correctness without launching into a rant exposing their 'Women' and 'Immigrtation/Race' issues.

You are absolutely correct in your statement, but that does not really respond to mine. I would be extremely surprised to hear a racist remark from someone who has taken the PC movement to heart. This is why all else being equal, I would tend to associate with PC-ophiles rather than anti-PC folks who are in fact racist.

My point in my quote is that is seems that a few adamently PC posters here are pretty much limiting themselves to racism and sexism. Those are two low-hanging fruits, easy to attack with few people disagreeing. PC has much more scope than just those two issues, and I think it is on those other issues that most people would have their problems with excessive PC.

--

Is Obama being given an easy ride because of his race, or is it simply the general feeling of relief at having got rid of the current incumbant.

A 'honeymoon' period is quite normal. GWB enjoyed one (spending his time playing golf etc), why should not a President Elect who was voted in with such a wide margin of aproval also enjoy a honeymoon period.

Race is an issue in the US and in time we'll hear how the President Elect is not above racits attacks.

The main context of this was not concerning the honeymoon period, but rather the primary and general election process (This interview was taken the day after the election). There was a study made about jokes told on the major candidates, and Obama had far fewer told on him despite him being the poll leader. Maher quoted those statistics, but I don't remember the exact numbers.

Don't get me wrong. I voted for Obama, and I fervently hope that there are far fewer reasons to lambast him than his predecessor, but if he does misstep, I hope the media treats him the same as they would have treated McCain had he won.

[garro]

I think that there are some issues which I would like to clear up from my point of view on this subject. The first is in regards to why political correctness is of benefit. Well that's easy. The relationships between the different groups in societies have been greatly improved through its existence. This is because political correctness has provided a vocabulary for discussion.

I think that most reasonable people would agree that the best ways to sort out problems in society is through discussion. These discussions often fall apart because they can not get beyond the most basic level because people get insulted by the vocabulary used. For discussion to exist there needs to be respect and an important aspect of this respect is being able to communicate without causing insult.

An example of this would be the Northern Ireland (or Ulster or whatever word for this part of the world that you prefer); for years crucial discussion could not take place because either side could not tolerate the use of certain words. Even place names could cause trouble as in the case of Derry/Londonderry. Meanwhile the bombing continued. A new vocabulary needed to be implemented so the discussion could begin and the terrorists/freedom fighters could stop blowing up babies and innocent people just trying to do their jobs. They actually found that once the vocabulary was made less-provoking these people actually had much in common. Some of these words actually sounded quite harmless by themselves, but there mere removal really made the difference. This example of the North of Ireland/Ulster is not unique, but can be applied to many conflicts in society. Remove the contentious words and many of the problems which were preventing dialogue are removed.

Of course. political correctness goes to far. It is fairly clumsy tool. but the fact is it does work. My real problem with the anti-PC brigade is not that political correctness is a wonderful tool which works flawlessly. My difficulty is why people are anti-PC. After all if it makes society a better place does it really matter if you can't use seemingly harmless words. My difficulty is that all the people who I have met who have been anti-PC have without fail always held this belief with other ideas of what they should be allowed to say. These things that they have wanted to say are not the harmless things that people are using here as examples, but really nasty ideas which do not deserve any platform in decent society. The usual conversation quickly moves from "the world has gone PC mad" to "I'm not racist, but..". The worst thing is though that despite all the fear about PC I have never seen it stop any of these people spout their hateful &lt;deleted&gt;. This is why I now just walk away. Those this mean that all anti-PC people are racist; I am fairly certain it doesn't but experience has shown me to hear alarm bells when people begin on their anti-PC rants.

Edited December 18, 2008 by garro

[bonobo]

I think that there are some issues which I would like to clear up from my point of view on this subject. The first is in regards to why a politically correctness is of benefit. Well that's easy. The relationships between the different groups in societies have been greatly improved through its existence. This is because political correctness has provided a vocabulary for discussion.

I think that most reasonable people would agree that the best ways to sort out problems in society is through discussion. These discussions often fall apart because they can not get beyond the most basic level because people get insulted by the vocabulary used. For discussion to exist there needs to be respect and an important aspect of this respect is being able to communicate without causing insult.

An example of this would be the Northern Ireland (or Ulster or whatever word for this part of the world that you prefer); for years crucial discussion could not take place because either side could not tolerate the use of certain words. Even place names could cause trouble as in the case of Derry/Londonderry. Meanwhile the bombing continued. A new vocabulary needed to be implemented so the discussion could begin and the terrorists/freedom fighters could stop blowing up babies and innocent people just trying to do their jobs. They actually found that once the vocabulary was made less-provoking these people actually had much in common. Some of these words actually sounded quite harmless by themselves, but there mere removal really made the difference. This example of the North of Ireland/Ulster is not unique, but can be applied to many conflicts in society. Remove the contentious words and many of the problems which were preventing dialogue are removed.

Of course. political correctness goes to far. It is fairly clumsy tool. but the fact is it does work. My real problem with the anti-PC brigade is not that political correctness is a wonderful tool which works flawlessly. My difficulty is why people are anti-PC. After all if it makes society a better place does it really matter if you can't use seemingly harmless words. My difficulty is that all the people who I have met who have been anti-PC have without fail always held this belief with other ideas of what they should be allowed to say. These things that they have wanted to say are not the harmless things that people are using here as examples, but really nasty ideas which do not deserve any platform in decent society. The usual conversation quickly moves from "the world has gone PC mad" to "I'm not racist, but..". The worst thing is though that despite all the fear about PC I have never seen it stop any of these people spout their hateful &lt;deleted&gt;. This is why I now just walk away. Those this mean that all anti-PC people are racist; I am fairly certain it doesn't but experience has shown me to hear alarm bells when people begin on their anti-PC rants.

Garro,

That was a well thought-out and articulated post. And I really think (I hope, at least) that most posters would understand and agree with what you wrote.

And while there were some rather brutish posts from posters who are anti-PC, I do think (and someone correct me if I am wrong and not representing your point-of-view) that most of the posters who have posted here often are not against the benefits and progress to which PC has contributed, but rather the excesses that it can generate.

I do think that PC-minded people have sometimes overstepped bounds and tried to force their worldview on others even when not warranted. I have tried to show some examples of that. My homestate is California, and that is the most PC state in the Union. And while I simply love Canada, the PC environment there can actually be repressive at times.

In my personal life, I am naturally what most people would consider is PC, although I don't use that as a decision-making tool. However, I also think that is is good for children in school to be exposed to all philosophies, to include religions, not as an inculcation, but as simply learing about the world at large. And I think it is fine to teach that obesity has serious detrimental health consequences (we teach that about smoking, but then again, smoking is not very PC itself these days.) In India, the local PC brigades in some towns have stopped NGO's from teaching safe sex because that implies that Indian men are not monogamous. Consequently, HIV rates are skyrocketing.

The world is undoubtedly better off because of the PC movement. There is no doubt about it. But like anything, there can be excesses, and to criticize those excesses does not make a person a recidivistic racists.

Thanks for you posts. They got me thinking, and that is more than most posts accomplish.

[DC1066]

I think that there are some issues which I would like to clear up from my point of view on this subject. The first is in regards to why political correctness is of benefit. Well that's easy. The relationships between the different groups in societies have been greatly improved through its existence. This is because political correctness has provided a vocabulary for discussion.

I think that most reasonable people would agree that the best ways to sort out problems in society is through discussion. These discussions often fall apart because they can not get beyond the most basic level because people get insulted by the vocabulary used. For discussion to exist there needs to be respect and an important aspect of this respect is being able to communicate without causing insult.

An example of this would be the Northern Ireland (or Ulster or whatever word for this part of the world that you prefer); for years crucial discussion could not take place because either side could not tolerate the use of certain words. Even place names could cause trouble as in the case of Derry/Londonderry. Meanwhile the bombing continued. A new vocabulary needed to be implemented so the discussion could begin and the terrorists/freedom fighters could stop blowing up babies and innocent people just trying to do their jobs. They actually found that once the vocabulary was made less-provoking these people actually had much in common. Some of these words actually sounded quite harmless by themselves, but there mere removal really made the difference. This example of the North of Ireland/Ulster is not unique, but can be applied to many conflicts in society. Remove the contentious words and many of the problems which were preventing dialogue are removed.

Of course. political correctness goes to far. It is fairly clumsy tool. but the fact is it does work. My real problem with the anti-PC brigade is not that political correctness is a wonderful tool which works flawlessly. My difficulty is why people are anti-PC. After all if it makes society a better place does it really matter if you can't use seemingly harmless words. My difficulty is that all the people who I have met who have been anti-PC have without fail always held this belief with other ideas of what they should be allowed to say. These things that they have wanted to say are not the harmless things that people are using here as examples, but really nasty ideas which do not deserve any platform in decent society. The usual conversation quickly moves from "the world has gone PC mad" to "I'm not racist, but..". The worst thing is though that despite all the fear about PC I have never seen it stop any of these people spout their hateful &lt;deleted&gt;. This is why I now just walk away. Those this mean that all anti-PC people are racist; I am fairly certain it doesn't but experience has shown me to hear alarm bells when people begin on their anti-PC rants.

You are right about this, BUT maybe you don't get it, because whenever people talk about race or other provocative topics, they feel obliged to use a modifier for fear of reprisals, merely for daring to raise such a topic for discussion.

For instance, if I were to question, "Why is it PC to have a 'Music of Black Origin' awards ceremony, but if it were suggested we have a Music of White Origin award, I'd be accused of being a member of The Klan?

I don't say this lightly, because this is the real danger of the PC brigade - if discussing these topics is a crime, they get forced underground, where questions aren't answered and hate and resentment festers.

You are absolutely right in your opinion that things are changed by discussion, and that is why these issues should be aired rather than frowned upon. For example, I welcomed being taught religion at school. Our RE lessons weren't focused solely on Christianity, but we discussed Bhuddism and the Muslim faith on a factual basis and without bias and judgement. Surely this is better than the poster who earlier suggested it be taught solely at home. Can you imagine the children of the average Klan member being given a balanced view of Judaism at home?

So, when it comes to PC attitudes, I'm strongly against it. Rather I'd say, I'm just for Correctness. If Rosa Parks had asked for my seat on the bus, I'd have given it her with a smile. If Emily Wilding Davison had come to me before throwing herself under the King's horse at The Derby, I'd gladly of given her my vote. And if a gay, retired, disabled, black lesbian is the right person to be Prime Minister, she can have the job, BUT I will not stop singing Baa Baa Black Sheep, and will keep putting up my Christmas Tree at this time of year.