Teaching In Other Asian Countries

[kat]

ok, so I've been teaching again in governement schools, and even though my first experience was ######, this experience is even worse.

I show up with the best intentions, the kids are noisy and unruly, don't listen unless it is for point-driven games, are disrespectful to me outside of class (not all, but mostly boys), learn when they pay attention but mostly don't pay attention, and the disorganization and lack of simple logic on the part of the school boggles the mind to say the least. The class sizes are between 50 to 60 students. My kids are pratom 2 to 4.

Even when I attempt to teach a good lesson, the class is so loud and disruptive except for the few interested students, that it seems hopeless to try and teach a language in the midst of all that noise and din. And I feel worse because I know they do not behave this way with Thai teachers. I have a Thai assistant, but she really doesn't seem to be able to do much.

Can someone with the experience please tell me how this scenario compares with other Asian countries, especially SEA? I am losing my will to teach here, my best efforts seem to make no difference in how they treat me, and well, I can really do better. Any ideas at all? Comparisons most appreciated.

Thanks. I really need your feedback.

[mbkudu]

  The class sizes are between 50 to 60 students. 

My god, I feel for you! Anything else has got to be better than that. Sorry I can't be of any help. I never understood teachers who work in government schools.There just aren't any rewards, except for the feeling that you might be helping students who don't have the best chance at education. Sometimes you have to think about yourself. Most of my students were privates. The biggest classes I had were 20-25. Beyond those numbers, it is a waste of time for the teacher and the students. I just wish school officials understood that.

[PeaceBlondie]

I've got a speech prepared for Thai educational administrators, similar to the one I gave to the left-wing Venezuelan rich folks: "When your ruling class decides to pay enough taxes to educate every peasant adequately, free of charge, with mandatory attendance to age 16 with class sizes under 25, for a century, your great-grandchildren might inherit a country worth ruling. Until then, your families will rule over a peasantry that isn't capable of driving you to the opera."

[Ijustwannateach]

Kat, you've hit the bottom of the barrel. What you describe is as bad as it gets here- which as you've noticed, is pretty bad. However, you came in during the time when the worst schools are struggling to replace their missing teachers. If you can hang on until May, chances are you'll find somewhere that's at least better than that.

As schools go in the region, the Thais (at their worst, to be fair) are about as out of control as it gets. If silent, zombie-like mind drones are more your thing, try Japan- send me a PM if you want more details!- and I've also heard relatively better things in this department about Malaysia, Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, China, Vietnam, and Laos.

Good luck and hang in there!

"Steven"

[tedkarma]

Can someone with the experience please tell me how this scenario compares with other Asian countries, especially SEA?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The real problem is that you are teaching in public schools - pretty much the worst option in any country - even in my home country I would be loath to teach a classroom of 40-50 young people.

Try the language institutes. Thais generally are great fun to teach - particularly as you state - they love to play games. I've often thought you could get them to do very hard physical labor for days without pay - if it involved a game with points! If it works - use it.

Other countries in Asia - I've taught (in Asia) only in Korea, Thailand, Taiwan, and Saudi (SW Asia). Thais are the most fun and relaxed. Of the other countries Taiwan might be the best compromise of students, student respect for teacher, student discipline, and decent income.

Best advice - get out of the public schools - to somewhere where you will have decent size classes - that meet at a frequency where the students can actually learn something.

Only my opinion.

[alaina]

I wouldn't give up on Thailand just yet. There is definitely a better school out there for you as female teachers are greatly in demand (assuming you have at least a Bachelor's.) Private schools often insist on female Kindergarten teachers with classes anywhere from 10-25 kids (and 25 is still too many at that age.) The pay at these schools can be quite good too.

Feel free to PM me as I just did my job search a couple months ago in Bangkok.

[kat]

Thanks Pearl, and everyone else who has offered me their feedback and advice.

I just wanted to add that the school I described above is considered to be one of the top governement schools in Bangkok. I myself am a product of public schools, and although they were bad, I've never seen the level of chaos and disorder as I've have seen here. I also get the distinct impression that I am held in lower regard than the other male teachers at my school, because they are tall, mildly handsome white boys. They are treated like celebrities.

Yes, I have two advanced degrees. I will PM you Pearl.

[Ijustwannateach]

Kat, all the schools will tell you they're the "bestest of the bestest of the bestest." I've never been at a school in Bangkok that didn't tell me they were the best in some way. Some of them actually seem to believe their own marketing. Once you've worked at 3 or 4 of them and heard the same stories over and over, you'll be much less impressed by statements like this. And very few of them really ARE distinct from the others in behavior or anything else, but they are out there.

Private schools carry a number of their own disadvantages... actually, this is a good idea for a new comparative thread- I'll write it later- but basically you're looking at schools where, for example, a single snotty parent can get you fired for their kid being unhappy because you won't let him throw metal objects in your class (while the school blames you for not being able to keep order). Spoiled doesn't begin to describe it.

"Steven"

[brianbrain]

Even when I attempt to teach a good lesson, the class is so loud and disruptive except for the few interested students, that it seems hopeless to try and teach a language in the midst of all that noise and din.  And I feel worse because I know they do not behave this way with Thai teachers.  I have a Thai assistant, but she really doesn't seem to be able to do much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kat,

Sorry to hear about your experience. I have a lot of sympathy for you and I can well imaging the "support" you are getting from the other Thai teachers. None. I've been teaching class sizes of about 45 kids for the past two years and though some lessons are better than others I am definitely the boss. Before you bail out from the school, and possibly Thailand altogether, how about trying some kick-ass tactics to get the classes back under your control? I know you have tried some things already, but how about giving it one last go? It would be a shame to see you go when you so obviously care for the kids.

# Prepare your own interesting lessons with at least some questions that are within the ability of every student in the class. Ignore any (all?) ridiculous teaching-objectives set by the school and don't just copy workbooks.

# Confiscate cartoon books, scissors, cutters, knives, phones, artwork, or anything else the kids are playing with. For the low-value stuff, tell them they can collect from your office. They won’t.

# Identify and segregate the most unruly kids. Okay, they are all bad!

# Tell the kids to shut up and look like you mean it. Look bloody fierce! Look like you’ve always been bloody fierce, and not just driven to it by them.

# Pick the worst ones and get them to write their names down. Deliver the list to their classroom teacher and complain in detail. Do this every lesson. Contrary to what you may expect, something may be done and if so the kids definitely won't like it.

# Punish a few kids individually at the front of the class. Nothing physical, but if they cry that will be a big plus for you.

# Don't let the kids leave until YOU have finished YOUR lesson. Tell them they can eat sh1t before they leave for their next table-tennis / paper-folding / knot tying lesson. If they are still noisy, just sit at the front of the classroom in your own personal silence. They will become silent when they realise they ain’t going home. Call it detention if you like.

# Tell the kids you will personally phone and/or meet their parents to tell them what little bar stewards they are.

# Learn some Thai. Learn enough words to explain your lesson. Don’t worry about scolding in Thai – I’m sure they’ll get the idea in whatever language!

# Stop playing games. PERIOD!

I have tried all the above tactics and they worked for me. Okay, so I haven’t tried at your school, I don’t have much experience, and maybe they are the worst and I know naff all, but really I think you should try one last time. I enjoy teaching classes of 45 Thai kids and hope you can too. To quote one of the Thai teachers at my school, “Some of the kids really LOVE you, but they said you can be REALLY SCARY sometimes.” By the way, the kids always say hello to me outside of the classroom or for that matter anywhere I see them around Bangkok.

Good luck!

Edited December 23, 2004 by brianbrain

[brianbrain]

Oh, the other tactic I've seen employed by farang teachers is just don't bother. If the kids don't turn up that's not your problem; if they don't want to listen then don't bother shouting; don't complain to the Thai teachers, they'd prefer not to have the extra work anyway; let the kids read their comic books; play games every lesson...

The unfortunate thing is this seems utterly acceptable to some Thai teachers. All you need to do is give plenty of friendly wais, agree with anything/anyone (especially requests - don't worry - no one will ever check or make you do it), offer free English lessons to the Thai teachers.

[Rhys]

Hmmmm.. Well you have paid your dues here.. same experiences...with the privates.. but depending on your motivation.. BAHT.. up country schools are rewarding.. You have these wonderful .. well manner kids.. ready for instruction.. Sorry .. did not read completely.. Most of the Private schools can be horror shows.. of "Abusive" kids.. Especially at BCC.. you know the place off the skytrain.

China.. is no better..

The language institutes. like EF.. HMM..the clients tend to be more focussed..

The the nursing college system.. The students are well mannered..

But don't worry. you'll find your rainbow.. The Thai ADM.. will it is a crap shoot.. but find the kids that make a difference. and you'll be happy..

Cheers.. STand tall , stand proud..

[kat]

Thanks so much Brianbrain. Your feedback was uncannily accurate. On Tuesday I was so demoralized I went to see the director of the school. They were nice and apologized that I was having a hard time.

Then they called the owner of the private contractor on Thursday and said that I walked into their office and complained, and why should I - all teachers have to deal with naughty students. She also said that I was complaining to their Thai teachers, and that I shouldn't do so. But the funny thing is (well, funny in that I've learned to laugh at these kinds of things in Thailand now), the day after I visited her office she sent two Thai teachers to come and talk to me. They asked me what was wrong and to list the classes that gave me trouble. I was in the middle of administering a test to my class. When I walked outside to talk to them, there were 3 Thai teachers, including the homeroom teacher of the current class taking the test. They all listened sympathetically. After the teacher who was reporting for the director left, I pointed out the naughty students to the homeroom teacher. On Thursday I got the phone call from the language contractor, who said they called and said that I was talking to Thai teachers and pointing out naughty students - a no, no. So much for sympathetic nods and gestures.

I couldn't believe it, but hey, TIT. You're right, Brian, I feel there is nothing you can do but cave in to mai bpen rai, and games all the time, everyday, bingo, hangman, whatever you want! But that is not my nature. So I am looking for another job. They don't like my best, or my efforts, or my serious approach to educating children, so I feel I should leave. I am thinking of leaving Thailand, because I am starting to wonder why someone like me should stay. I am not easy-going enough to stay here. I feel like none of the kids like me.

But then just as I was feeling down today, one of my brightest students gave me a Christmas present and the most adorable, meticulously written handmade Christmas card. Her mother always gives me a broad smile whenever I see her. So, I guess I do get through to those who are listening.

Brian, I will take your advice and try the things you said.

Thanks for all of your posts. Happy holidays and Merry Christmas.

[PeaceBlondie]

You mention your "serious approach to educating children." Maybe you want to try another country or solar system. I quickly learned that it was an insult in Thailand to be told, "You're too serious."

These experienced Thai teachers and administrators long ago realized that the rich Thais would never spend enough money on public education to get class sizes down (or build enough new buildings). So they adapt by being less serious. Ten minutes late for class? Mai bpen rai. Class cancelled without notice? Mai bpen rai. Somcharat's beating up on Pasanol? Just break them up, my pen wry. The loud speakers aren't worth a plug nickel and your voice doesn't carry over the din? My pen writes.

Remember, when it's all said and done at the end of the day, you won't have set the world on fire or taught very much. Tarapornaporn isn't going to go home to Maa and say, "Ajarn Farang taught us how to pronounce 'gerund' today and conjugate the past participle."

But today I got a beautiful Christmas present from the shyest boy in Thailand.

[bogaty]

Your school situation sounds like about 90% of the junior high and high schools in Japan and the private schools are actually much worse than the public ones. I've been working in Japan for the last 7 years and can't stand it anymore so I'm now in Thailand sniffing around for a job for when my contract in Japan ends in March.

It hasn't been too encouraging so far. I've had a few interviews at schools in and around Bangkok, but I don't think I can handle living in this city.

I'm off for some interviews in Chonburi, Sri Racha and Pattaya (ugh) from tomorrow. Hopefully something will pan out there.

[brianbrain]

The loud speakers aren't worth a plug nickel and your voice doesn't carry over the din?  My pen writes. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I really wish the Thai teachers could wise-up on the use of speakers. The only thing it teaches the kids is that talking is okay, just so long as the teacher remains the loudest. Personally I don't use them - I tell the kids to shut up instead. Am I alone in this?

[brianbrain]

Thanks so much Brianbrain.  Your feedback was uncannily accurate.  On Tuesday I was so demoralized I went to see the director of the school.  They were nice and apologized that I was having a hard time. 

Then they called the owner of the private contractor on Thursday and said that I walked into their office and complained, and why should I - all teachers have to deal with naughty students.  She also said that I was complaining to their Thai teachers, and that I shouldn't do so.  ...............

Thanks for all of your posts.  Happy holidays and Merry Christmas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't let it get you down. I know it seems really bad but I've taken similar crap from my school and I bet it happens everywhere. This sort of thing can eat inside you but try not to let that happen. Easier said than done, I know. Remember, if you fall out with them it's their loss, not yours.

Good luck.

[brianbrain]

Can someone with the experience please tell me how this scenario compares with other Asian countries, especially SEA?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Try the language institutes. Thais generally are great fun to teach - particularly as you state - they love to play games. I've often thought you could get them to do very hard physical labor for days without pay - if it involved a game with points! If it works - use it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought the point was that she doesn't just want to play games.

[brianbrain]

You mention your "serious approach to educating children."  Maybe you want to try another country or solar system.  I quickly learned that it was an insult in Thailand to be told, "You're too serious."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... and especially so if you are female? There was one very talented and hardworking female teacher at my school. She was also very serious about lesson content and delivery. She reckoned she had a much worse time from the (predominantly female) Thai teachers at my school and I can well believe her. Incidentally, they never offered to renew her contract.

[PeaceBlondie]

I don't know that being serious is any more of a crime when committed by males or females. We don't see many male Thai teachers of English out in the provinces, and don't see many female farang teachers.

The renewal of an annual employment contract is always a precarious situation. One must be a brown-noser, as we said in the 1950's.

The story about you having one conversation with the teachers and administrators at your school, and then your agency coming back with a very different story, isn't surprising. I realized this week that I was complaining to my boss, and I've got to quit doing that. It gets me nowhere except deeper in a hole. The other educators are busy enough without solving our problems (even when it's part of their job to supervise or support us). They just don't want to hear it, and I can't blame them. Complaining often backfires. One needs to be very creative to bring up problems.

Oh, some wise guy will say "Just tell it like it is, and to take the job and shove it..." but that doesn't always work in the first world, either. Thais don't want to hear bad news.

[kat]

You mention your "serious approach to educating children."  Maybe you want to try another country or solar system.  I quickly learned that it was an insult in Thailand to be told, "You're too serious."

These experienced Thai teachers and administrators long ago realized that the rich Thais would never spend enough money on public education to get class sizes down (or build enough new buildings).  So they adapt by being less serious.  Ten minutes late for class?  Mai bpen rai.  Class cancelled without notice?  Mai bpen rai.  Somcharat's beating up on Pasanol?  Just break them up, my pen wry.  The loud speakers aren't worth a plug nickel and your voice doesn't carry over the din?  My pen writes. 

Remember, when it's all said and done at the end of the day, you won't have set the world on fire or taught very much.  Tarapornaporn isn't going to go home to Maa and say, "Ajarn Farang taught us how to pronounce 'gerund' today and conjugate the past participle."

But today I got a beautiful Christmas present from the shyest boy in Thailand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your post was hilarious. What I meant about being serious is someone who takes teaching seriously. I think if I assumed the non-caring attitude of many teachers who happily play games the entire class and don't give much thought to anything except what pub they'll be frequenting that evening, I'd fare much better. And yes, I think being female does in certain ways extract more negative feedback. Whatever. What wil be, will be. TIT, right? Mai bpen rai, or, my oh my. Whatever.

Edited December 26, 2004 by kat

[mbkudu]

Kat, there is a recent reader's submission on Stickman from a reader who echoes

nearly all of your woes; have a look. 'Teaching in Thailand, What a Joke'

Edited December 26, 2004 by mbkudu

[Pablo H]

Kat,

sounds like youre pissed off there, not surprised, I would be aswell. Instead of moving onto another country why dont you try teaching to adults on a corporate level. You will find that these people actually want to learn and will be model pupils.

Dont know how long youve been in Thailand but it would be a shame for you to move out just because you dont like the school your working in.

One thing I would say is avoid Korea, I met a few teachers who were in Thailand on holiday from there, they told me its (Korea) the most boring place place they have ever been to and these people were from Canada so I guess it must have been pretty bad there.

You just have to weigh up your options and take it from there. Personally I would give Thailand another go before moving on.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

[Ijustwannateach]

Was surprised to see a post above by someone tired of the STUDENTS in Japan- I always found them pretty ok- it was the Japanese *system* I got tired of....

Kat, no matter where you are if there's a problem it's *your* problem. It's in nobody's interest to accept responsibility or to try to discipline a kid who means a certain number of $$$ to the school, even if it's a poor school. The Thai teachers either have draconian disciplinary techniques which you wouldn't want to use even if you were allowed, or they have given up and either outshout, out-wait, or out-sit the classes they are assigned. So, of course, you're the "only" teacher with a problem. Education is beside the point; you gotta keep the little monkeys from killing each other until they're 18, and that's about it here.

The most brutally honest Thai teachers I've worked with and befriended were willing privately to admit these things, but even though I knew them quite well it was a bit taboo for them to discuss it- the conversations would go kind of like this:

Me: "You mean that the Section 4 class (the worst in the school) will just pass no matter what they do, even though half of them never show up?"

Her: "Well, I wouldn't want to *say* it like that, but...."

Of course, they want to present the appearance of caring- but it's in no one's interest to make themselves a martyr to an unpopular cause, even in the best interests of the students. However, to a large extent, this is what industrialized education is about worldwide.

Hang in there- there are better places- but it took me over 2 years to find a good home here.

"Steven"

[johnnyk]

I taught in Taiwan and liked it a lot.

The Taiwanese are pretty motivated and the conditions are generally good.

Best jobs are in public and private high schools. You can earn about 60K NT$ a month which is about 75K baht or 14K Euro or 23K $CDN and...its legally tax free!!!

A decent apartment in Taipei will run you about 15-16K baht a month and everything else is very cheap. Taipei is much smaller and easier to get around than BKK.

If you live in other cities like Taijung rents are about 25-30% less but same salary.

Plenty of tutoring available on the side as everyone knows a friend/relative who wants to learn/improve English. Also corporate work at very good rates.

In my experience, the Taiwanese are fun, funny, very smart and quick and quite enjoyable to be with.

DO NOT sign a contract, it will put you in handcuffs. There is so much work you don't need to sign up with an outfit that you don't know, haven't seen etc. Would you buy a car you've never seen? Exactly.

[kat]

Great. After the posts on this thread, I think I will start aiming seriously for Tawain in the next couple of months. What do I need to get some of the best jobs? I have 3 advanced degrees, but they are all packed away at home. Since I've been here employers from my professional field (not teaching) have verified my credentials by phone or university websites.

Is there any action I should take now if I want to hook a good job in Tawain by the end of February?

Thanks for the info.

Kat

[mbkudu]

Kat, there is a Taiwan Association in Bangkok. I don't know what the exact name is in English. If you contacted the Taiwan consulate (All Seasons Place?), they could tell how to contact them. This association helps Taiwanese expats living in Thaialnd with business and social contacts. They may be able to help you. I have had many Taiwaese students, mostly kids and housewives, in Thailand; they are super friendly people.

Edited January 6, 2005 by mbkudu

[tedkarma]

Kat, there is a Taiwan Association in Bangkok. I don't know what the exact name is in English. If you contacted the Taiwan consulate (All Seasons Place?), they could tell how to contact them. This association helps Taiwanese expats living in Thaialnd with business and social contacts. They may be able to help you. I have had many Taiwaese students, mostly kids and housewives, in Thailand; they are super friendly people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I too enjoyed my time in Taiwan. I lived in Taipei and loved it there. Taiwan is a good compromise between Korea and Thailand - can't save quite as much - but quite interesting and I found the people very friendly. If you are American - it is the most pro-America place on earth - a nice refuge in these times . . .

Taiwan does and will verify your credentials. If you can't get your degrees from home - contact your universities and order new originals. It's not difficult - they do it all the time - a credit card will suffice. Taiwan will also want transcripts - most likely official (unopened) transcripts.

[Rumpole]

China.. is no better..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I have to disagree with this.

I have just signed on for a third year here at "my" university in China, having fled the Thai edutainment circus in horror two years ago. Admittedly I do not teach kids (and have no desire ever to do so), but my experiences here have been far more positive than the purgatory I experienced in Thai universities. My Chinese students are more motivated and capable than any of the Thais I taught, and the treatment I have received from the university administration is generally much more equitable. I am paid a lot more for far fewer hours and enjoy nearly six months paid holiday a year, in addition to other benefits which are generally unheard of in Thailand. I have also earned the respect of my Chinese colleagues - a very far cry from the barely suppressed, xenophobic hostility I encountered from the Thai Ajarns.

I would rather open a vein than teach in Thailand again.

Edited January 7, 2005 by Rumpole

[johnnyk]

Kat, best time for the high school jobs is August.

A Bachelor's degree is fine, MA is better and they don't seem to care that much about TESOL certs. Knock 'em dead with a good demo lesson and you're in.

There is lots of info on this site:

www.tealit.com (TeachingAndLivingInTaiwan)

You can find roommates, language partners, BF or GF, jobs etc etc; its free.

Chok dee.

[johnnyk]

China.. is no better..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I have to disagree with this.

I have just signed on for a third year here at "my" university in China, having fled the Thai edutainment circus in horror two years ago. Admittedly I do not teach kids (and have no desire ever to do so), but my experiences here have been far more positive than the purgatory I experienced in Thai universities. My Chinese students are more motivated and capable than any of the Thais I taught, and the treatment I have received from the university administration is generally much more equitable. I am paid a lot more for far fewer hours and enjoy nearly six months paid holiday a year, in addition to other benefits which are generally unheard of in Thailand. I have also earned the respect of my Chinese colleagues - a very far cry from the barely suppressed, xenophobic hostility I encountered from the Thai Ajarns.

I would rather open a vein than teach in Thailand again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My two satang is that the Chinese are confident. They have a long and grand history and are secure in their identity. They are very aware of being one of the world's most important civilizations. They are not afraid of taking what others know to benefit themselves.

The Thais, OTOH are xenophobic, have invented effall and innovated less because they already know everything 555. Bozos with connections make millions while talent too often goes unrecognized or perceived as a threat. And while the Chinese think generations ahead, we all know that Thai planning means 45 minutes from now at best.