Get The Sand Off The Ghostroad. Now!

[mattias33]

Once again my wife come home shouting "call the hospital quick!!". A girl fell down right outside the house again.

All covered in blood, her face looked terrible. Give it that she might have been intoxicated but still. With the limited drivingskills these girls have, the sand is just a killer. One tush at the brake and you are down before you can say "bottle".

Actually, i will probably mostly get answers like "clean it yourself" by posting this, but i find it so hard to beleive community just seem to be watching accident after accident on the same spot.

It´s getting crazy by now.

FYI the girl is on the way to the hospital now. Hopefully they get her back on track but i´m here to tell you she was a mess. God, let somebody with somekind of connections wake up the samui mayor on this one. I tryed before on this forum, and this time i beg you to leave out the "go sweap yourself" things from the thread. If there is somebody with connections good enough, please, please, wake them up on this.

If not, nevermind the bullocks, just a desperate cry for help on a serious issue.

Thx.

[pothai]

Put a broom outside your gate at night and maybe the ghost will do it for you ......definatly needs to be done...although it is a lot better than a while ago.

[goldfish]

There is sand on the roads, there always will be sand on the roads. It's a tropical island. The only way to solve the problem is to build a raised road, similar to many in Suratthani. Unless that is done, which will probably not happen, this will be a regular occurance. Maybe if/when Samui keeps it's own income, and it doesn't all disappear in backhanders, there may be money to employ a regular cleaning crew.

The other problem is lack of riding skills. You do not lean a bike over on sand. It's possible to 'square off' virtually any bend. I do it all the time at the moment, yet I continually see people leaning the bike over on sand. The result is inevitable.

It would help if this information was included in the driving test. Unfortunately many Thai people have never taken a test. If you meet the lady again, maybe you could ask her where the fault lay. If she accepts responsibility, then there's hope for her learning. I hope she recovers well from her injuries, but unless she accepts some responsibilities it could happen again, especially after a few drinks.

Have also seen two accidents on sand near my home. I, and most locals, know it's there and ride accordingly. The second guy who crashed was so paralytic I at first wondered if he'd hit his head. Couldn't stand straight and couldn't string a sentence together. He finally mounted his bike, which was losing oil at this stage, and shot off at extreme speed with the side stand down. There is no way he made it home without crashing again. This was at about 7pm

[highdiver]

yesterday while driving around samui i seen 2 incidents where people skided with motor bikes.

in both cases the fault was of the driver who slammed the front break.

anyone who has been driving bikes know that you never ever touch the front brake. the combination of slamming your front break and the sand on the road is lethal..

[neverdie]

yesterday while driving around samui i seen 2 incidents where people skided with motor bikes.

in both cases the fault was of the driver who slammed the front break.

anyone who has been driving bikes know that you never ever touch the front brake. the combination of slamming your front break and the sand on the road is lethal..

I'm not sure if what you are saying above is technically correct highdiver, the front brake is actually the most effective brake of the two & depending on who you speak to you will get told different things but braking between the front brake should be about a 70/30% front/rear combination....others will tell you 60/40, but the idea is the front brake is the one with the stopping power.

Having said all of that, one would be very wise certainly not to apply the front brake whilst in a bend & leaning the bike when there is sand on the road. As goldfish stated its possible to square up corners a bit & when you do brake the brakes should be applied gradually....this is good driving technique. The idea of going from full throttle to maximum brake should be avoided at all times, even on a good road surface....however I would like a baht for everytime I have been overtaken by a thai person who is accelerating like all madness to get past me and when he/she is almost past or just past, they commence heavy braking so they can pull left in front of me and make a left hand turn...<deleted> is that about?

Even with sand on the road it is still wise to use both brakes to stop the motorcycle, afterall when you apply brakes on a car the front ones don't automatically disconnect if there is sand on the road.A little bit of rider & driver training would go along way......but it will never be made compulsory in Thailand.

If the OP thinks he has a 'blackspot' area outside his house, perhaps, if he choses he could make a sign in thai & put it up on the edge of the road near his home....if its anything like my place theres a million signs everywhere BUT you never know, it may just get noticed & make some of them THINK. I don't know, maybe the sign should read...HEY STUPID, SLOW DOWN - SAND ON ROAD, SLIPERY! Maybe you should put a picture of a nud_e lady on the sign, that'll get their attention! Theres about 45 million km's of road that needs sweeping in Thailand, its just the way it is.

[mattias33]

yesterday while driving around samui i seen 2 incidents where people skided with motor bikes.

in both cases the fault was of the driver who slammed the front break.

anyone who has been driving bikes know that you never ever touch the front brake. the combination of slamming your front break and the sand on the road is lethal..

I'm not sure if what you are saying above is technically correct highdiver, the front brake is actually the most effective brake of the two & depending on who you speak to you will get told different things but braking between the front brake should be about a 70/30% front/rear combination....others will tell you 60/40, but the idea is the front brake is the one with the stopping power.

Having said all of that, one would be very wise certainly not to apply the front brake whilst in a bend & leaning the bike when there is sand on the road. As goldfish stated its possible to square up corners a bit & when you do brake the brakes should be applied gradually....this is good driving technique. The idea of going from full throttle to maximum brake should be avoided at all times, even on a good road surface....however I would like a baht for everytime I have been overtaken by a thai person who is accelerating like all madness to get past me and when he/she is almost past or just past, they commence heavy braking so they can pull left in front of me and make a left hand turn...<deleted> is that about?

Even with sand on the road it is still wise to use both brakes to stop the motorcycle, afterall when you apply brakes on a car the front ones don't automatically disconnect if there is sand on the road.A little bit of rider & driver training would go along way......but it will never be made compulsory in Thailand.

If the OP thinks he has a 'blackspot' area outside his house, perhaps, if he choses he could make a sign in thai & put it up on the edge of the road near his home....if its anything like my place theres a million signs everywhere BUT you never know, it may just get noticed & make some of them THINK. I don't know, maybe the sign should read...HEY STUPID, SLOW DOWN - SAND ON ROAD, SLIPERY! Maybe you should put a picture of a nud_e lady on the sign, that'll get their attention! Theres about 45 million km's of road that needs sweeping in Thailand, its just the way it is.

You are correct in your brake analysis. Also Hd is correct. Frontbrake is 70 % of the brakepower on a bike, backbrake is a pure toy. On a racingbike we didnt even have backwheelbrakes, and on sportbikes for the road i just to never use the backbrake at all. BUT, the front brake needs speed behind it. If you are above 70 km/hour and need to brake quick, "panicbrake", pull the front brake hard and let go slowly as the speed comes down, the less speed, the less pressure on your brake. This takes very much practise and no Thais have it thats for sure. Braketests are not included in Thai driverslicence.

However, driving scoters, around 40-50 km/hour, id say most of the time you can just let off the gas, bike is on 20km/h within seconds and you an brake it stop with the backbrake. In sand, pressing the frontbrake to hard will make the frontwheel slide sideways in a millisecond and if you are not aware and ready for this, you stand zero chans. Your on the ground wondering "what the hel_l happend?". Your idea of including some brakeskills and driving in sandy roads in th drivrslicnce is great. But then again, over here, how many of these girls even bother with a licence? There´s another issue to wake up the mayor with, get the police out of the lotteryspot in nathon and start doing their job!

[neverdie]

You are correct in your brake analysis. Also Hd is correct. Frontbrake is 70 % of the brakepower on a bike, backbrake is a pure toy. On a racingbike we didnt even have backwheelbrakes, and on sportbikes for the road i just to never use the backbrake at all. BUT, the front brake needs speed behind it. If you are above 70 km/hour and need to brake quick, "panicbrake", pull the front brake hard and let go slowly as the speed comes down, the less speed, the less pressure on your brake. This takes very much practise and no Thais have it thats for sure. Braketests are not included in Thai driverslicence.

However, driving scoters, around 40-50 km/hour, id say most of the time you can just let off the gas, bike is on 20km/h within seconds and you an brake it stop with the backbrake. In sand, pressing the frontbrake to hard will make the frontwheel slide sideways in a millisecond and if you are not aware and ready for this, you stand zero chans. Your on the ground wondering "what the hel_l happend?". Your idea of including some brakeskills and driving in sandy roads in th drivrslicnce is great. But then again, over here, how many of these girls even bother with a licence? There´s another issue to wake up the mayor with, get the police out of the lotteryspot in nathon and start doing their job!

The back brake is great to apply at low speed when trying to manoeuvre bike in traffic, do u-turns etc, but I also dislike the rear brake & don't use it the way I specified in my previous post, it may do about 10 to 15% of my braking with the rear but I have considerable experience & the brakes on my bike have been upgraded, I have some faith in them.

The problem here is people don't seem to understand the least effective way of braking is that with a wheel locked & skidding. I have witnessed a ton of young blokes on their finos & other auto scooters, locking the rear brake and inducing a tank slapping motion with the bike before biting the dust & laying on the road in a pool of blood wondering where they went wrong & probably too stupid to get some advice about where they went wrong. I certainly wouldnt be bold enuf to make a suggestion, A FARANG COULD NEVER BE RIGHT.

[Pilchard]

There´s another issue to wake up the mayor with, get the police out of the lotteryspot in nathon and start doing their job!

Don't know which part of the road you live on but is there not a Village Chief/Gam nan you could mention the problem to.

Could be better to start locally than wake up the Mayor.

[highdiver]

while i agree with the above breaking technics. most of the scooter riders have never had a lesson before going on a bike.

the best way as described above is to use the combination of rear and front break in a progressive break technic.. however most of those drivers in samui don't know or do it.

in both cases i seen yesterday the drivers wanted to avoid an obstacle and they slammed the front break. thus shifting at once all the weight to the front and as the wheel was locked by the break they lost control and crashed.

baring in my mind that there is sand on the road i would not use the front break but rather the rear one progersivly as you can still use the front to control

[Mark Wolfe]

This front brake/back brake analysis is theoretical and has little or no application here. It's like talking about the motion of bodies in a vacuum. Great stuff if we lived in one. . .

All this 70 percent stuff is fine when you are talking about quality tires, good standard of roadways and proper maintenance of equipment. How many of these three are present in Samui? Perhaps the only one is that the front brake (mostly disc nowadays) works well. Too well for these condition.

The braking discussion assumes that there is good purchase between the tire in front and the road below. Clearly, if there is grit between the two, the amount of friction increases dramatically. Instead of meeting resistance which acts on the disc for braking without locking up the tire, the resistance is reduced, thus "fooling" the tire and brake into thinking that the tire is spinning free. Try raising your front wheel off the ground and applying the brake; you will see that it doesn't take much pressure to lock the tire. This is essentially what is happening on sandy roads.

I have been riding a two-wheeler (20 years in Taiwan on a Vespa and three here on a Mio) and consider myself skilled. I have never taken a spill, but have a few times, at low speed, inadvertently touched the front brake in the wrong instance and had the front tire lock up momentarily, with me thinking, "Shittt, that's the way it happens..."

My advice is to use the front brake sparingly and with forethought.

[mattias33]

A small update on topic:

Somebody did actually clean up that spot today, perhaps because it looked like Stockholm bloodbath, but whatever the reason its still good that it happened. Whoever did it, thanks alot!

Let´s hope it last for some time.

[neverdie]

This front brake/back brake analysis is theoretical and has little or no application here. It's like talking about the motion of bodies in a vacuum. Great stuff if we lived in one. . .

All this 70 percent stuff is fine when you are talking about quality tires, good standard of roadways and proper maintenance of equipment. How many of these three are present in Samui? Perhaps the only one is that the front brake (mostly disc nowadays) works well. Too well for these condition.

The braking discussion assumes that there is good purchase between the tire in front and the road below. Clearly, if there is grit between the two, the amount of friction increases dramatically. Instead of meeting resistance which acts on the disc for braking without locking up the tire, the resistance is reduced, thus "fooling" the tire and brake into thinking that the tire is spinning free. Try raising your front wheel off the ground and applying the brake; you will see that it doesn't take much pressure to lock the tire. This is essentially what is happening on sandy roads.

I have been riding a two-wheeler (20 years in Taiwan on a Vespa and three here on a Mio) and consider myself skilled. I have never taken a spill, but have a few times, at low speed, inadvertently touched the front brake in the wrong instance and had the front tire lock up momentarily, with me thinking, "Shittt, that's the way it happens..."

My advice is to use the front brake sparingly and with forethought.

Mark Wolfe, I will agree with you that there heaps of poorly maintained motorcycles, I don't think its limited to Samui, but I agree with you. Also agree with the others that there is no training for the locals when it comes to this type of thing, its a trial and error, but some of them don't get to make improvements to their riding skills despite making the mistakes.

As for the brake theory only applying in a vacume...you've got me there. I think you will find most specialist driver training people will talk about 'best practice' everytime. The more you practice something the better you become at it. There is virutally no such place on a public road where the surface is perfect and free or devoid of substances which may effect the way the driver is control his/her vehicle. Naturally a GOOD driver/rider is looking for all the warning signs....which I believe that someone like you would be doing constantly, because as you point out, you have the experience & aparently no spills either. Propper braking practice, which is what I was talking about earlier, HAS EVERYTHING TO DO with what we are talking about. It doesnt just include the ratio at to which you would brake, but also technique in which you apply the brake, ease and squeeze, keeping the motorcycle balanced is important, considering what surface you are actually driving on is VERY important.

I read & re-read your previous post & whilst I agree with the majority of what you are saying, your explanation is out of wack. You state,

"The braking discussion assumes that there is good purchase between the tire in front and the road below. Clearly, if there is grit between the two, the amount of friction increases dramatically". This is INCORRECT. What you are talking about here is commonly referred to the 'Coefficient of friction' between a tyre and a surface. If there is sand on the road, as in this situation, the co-efficient of friction DECREASES. I am assuming you know what you are talking about but this is typo?

I find it very interesting that you have been riding a 'two wheeler' for 20 years & that you consider yourself 'skilled'. I have absolutely no doubt with 20 years in the saddle you have developed certain skills, some of which are good practice, some of which are not so good. Please don't take this the wrong way, but maybe oneday somewhere you will have the opportunity to attend some formal training, either just in defensive riding/driving or perhaps some form of advanced driver training....if you do, part with the cash and attend, you will surprise yourself with what you actually learn. You may then look back on yourself, in 2008 and think, "Geeze, I wasnt as skilled as I thought I was". I can't tell you how many people I've interviewed who have killed someone in a motorvehicle collision and prior to the collision they thought they were skilled drivers too. Theres a great difference between motoring around for 20 years and that of a driver who is actually trained and has the ability to deal with & understand what is occuring in an emergency situation.

Never lose sight of the fact that the rear wheel can also break traction with the road surface too. On the bikes you have described I think both bikes are fitted with drum brakes on the rear and you will most likely find that your front brake being disc, is most certainly more powerful & easier to apply too heavily and thus induce a 'skid'.

Having said all of that, I quickly ducked out between posts and swept the road for you mattias, I am sure you will notice....

[MSingh]

Actually, i will probably mostly get answers like "clean it yourself" by posting this, but i find it so hard to beleive community just seem to be watching accident after accident on the same spot.

You are part of that Community though Mattias yes & you've just been watching, closer than others too as it always seems to be your Wife who shouts for the Hospital ??

It certainly isn't your Job to clean it, i know that of course, but if i'm honest & if it was outside my House, i would clean the Road regulary IF i cared as much as you obviously do, about people coming off of their Motorbikes..

However, i am glad, like you, that someone cleaned it off the road, until the next Rain Shower brings the Sand back again..

[Birdman]

There is sand on the roads, there always will be sand on the roads. It's a tropical island. The only way to solve the problem is to build a raised road, similar to many in Suratthani.

right, that is, ups - would be, the only solution.

[Nirvana]

I find it very interesting that you have been riding a 'two wheeler' for 20 years & that you consider yourself 'skilled'. I have absolutely no doubt with 20 years in the saddle you have developed certain skills, some of which are good practice, some of which are not so good. Please don't take this the wrong way, but maybe oneday somewhere you will have the opportunity to attend some formal training, either just in defensive riding/driving or perhaps some form of advanced driver training....if you do, part with the cash and attend, you will surprise yourself with what you actually learn. You may then look back on yourself, in 2008 and think, "Geeze, I wasnt as skilled as I thought I was".

Neverdie

any idea where such training could be sought on island like Samui ? Costs ?

[OnTheSnap]

I've got 20+ years on real motorcycles, with advanced instruction (I attended California Superbike School during a visit to the States) and track experience- THE FRONT BRAKE STOPS THE BIKE- on a track, the back brake is rarely (if ever, depending on riding style) used.

Of course, traction conditions can make a difference- in deep sand, the front brake needs to be applied with a deft (not necessarily 'light') touch- it's about experience and knowing the limits of your bike- Mr. Wolfe is indeed correct that it is easier to lock up the front tire in conditions of low traction, but he is incorrect in his assessment that a front brake can work 'too well'- either a rider knows what he/she is doing and can properly operate their vehicle (including brake attenuation) in all road conditions, or they don't. In emergency conditions, brakes can't be used with 'forethought'- the action must be second nature to the point it becomes instinctual, and that only comes with practice and instruction (experience doesn't mean much- I know plenty of people who have been riding for years whose skills are embarrassingly lacking).

Education is the key- unfortunately, that is also something sorely lacking on Samui.

[neverdie]

Nivarna, There is a serious lack of this type of thing in Thailand. There is one group calling themselves 'Safe Driver Education Thailand', they are in Nontaburi. Im not aware of any on Samui.

Education is definately the way to go may save ur life one day.

I agree with onthesnap regarding braking and driver/rider training. The brakes on a motorcycle have many uses, other than the obvious one of stopping. I have previously mentioned that if you 'drag' the rear brake of the bike whilst at low speed and negotiating obsticals it has a stabalising effect on the bike. The front & rear brakes can also be used whilst conering, however this would mostly be for more advanced riders who understand exactly what they are doing. For example, If a rider entered a corner slightly too fast (a mistake is made) and he wishes to increase the bikes 'lean angle' he may gently apply the rear brake which will assist the bike to do this without increasing speed (in this instance he may be running out of corner so to speak). If the front brake was applied in this same situation it would have the effect of 'standing' the bike up and decreasing the lean angle. This technique may be used by a rider who is typically trying to avoid something that has suddenly appeared or is attempting to reduce speed in a bend. Having said that, if the rider doesnt have the experience this is MOST CERTAINLY going to end in tears as braking in a bend with any great lean angle MAY cause the front wheel to slide out from under the rider.

Anyway there is probably a great business opportunity for this type of training in Thailand but like most places in the world (Not including some european countries where training in mandatory) people believe they have a basic right to drive and ride, rather than realising its a privledge to do so & if Governments were to legistlate some of this & assist with the costs in relation to the training, we would save billions of dollars at the other end with hospital bills and compensation payouts....NOT to mention loss of life. Chances of this happening in Thailand...

Another important factor that relates to braking is CORRECT TYRE PRESSURE. I still have kittens everytime I see the guys at the service stations pump compressed air into tyres, checking pressures using their thumbs or kicking tyres. Theres nothing like a tyre with 50 plus psi in it....then at the other end of the scale there are all those riding around with underinflated tyres....really in either of these scenarios you are leading with the chin when it comes to disaster. I wonder what real percentage of crashes would have incorrect tyre pressures as a factor in the crash?

[limbos]

Just for the record, did any of these crashed persons wear a helmet?

[neverdie]

Just for the record, did any of these crashed persons wear a helmet?

When you ask about a helmet limbos...are you talking about those plastic things they sell in lotus OR are you talking about a real helmet? Because those plastic lids they sell here are an utter joke.

[dingdongrb]

Reading this thread reminds me of living in Colorado and watching all the newbies from California and Texas driving in their first snow storm.

BTW, back on topic, driving is Colorado on a bike is a lot like driving on Samui, there is always sand on the roads and care must be taken. Any experienced rider knows that over braking using the front brake on sandy roads is a disaster waiting to happen.

On another note, how many Thais you've seen wearing helmets have them strapped on? I mostly see the helmet on the head and the strap dangling freely.

Edited December 23, 2008 by dingdongrb

[neverdie]

Reading this thread reminds me of living in Colorado and watching all the newbies from California and Texas driving in their first snow storm.

BTW, back on topic, driving is Colorado on a bike is a lot like driving on Samui, there is always sand on the roads and care must be taken. Any experienced rider knows that over braking using the front brake on sandy roads is a disaster waiting to happen.

On another note, how many Thais you've seen wearing helmets have them strapped on? I mostly see the helmet on the head and the strap dangling freely.

Not to mention the helmet in the basket on the front of the bike!

[dominator]

yesterday while driving around samui i seen 2 incidents where people skided with motor bikes.

in both cases the fault was of the driver who slammed the front break.

anyone who has been driving bikes know that you never ever touch the front brake. the combination of slamming your front break and the sand on the road is lethal..

Your right about the front brake.

Edited December 23, 2008 by dominator

[OnTheSnap]

If anybody really wants to learn a few things without actually taking a course, order "Twist of the Wrist II" by Keith Code (the first "Twist of the Wrist" is more track-oriented- the second one translates better to the street)- I'm sure it's available through Amazon.com (and their shipping rates aren't bad to Thailand).

There are so many things about riding that are counter-intuitive (perhaps the best example being gradually increasing throttle input even if you get into a corner too hot, which certainly seems like a bad idea until you actually try it ) that you really need to be taught them rather than assuming you know it all because you have so many years/kilometers under your belt- it's the only book I've ever read that can improve your riding technique.

[Prasert]

I'm spending my holidays on Bali, another tropical island. Guess what - no sand on the roads. Nowhere.

A clean road may be something normal, except when you're used to the Thai roads. And I think it's quite amazing, considering the rainfall during monsoon season.

The reason? Proper water ducts next to the roads, much wider and deeper than anything on Samui. And they don't feel up with sand. Since most of the land is used for rice farming, the people here certainly understand how water flows. By channeling it, they turned it to their advantage.

But Thai people simply do not understand water, demonstrated by the continuous problems they're facing every year. Some think one can stop water with a few sandbags and if that doesn't work.... if-it-breaks-we-will-fix-it.

The erosion adds to the sand problem. Look at all the brown spots on Samui - usually caused by cutting coconut trees. These trees take almost all nutrition out of the soil. Cut one and nothing will grow for the next half year. The landowners can not be bothered to (temporary) plant vegetation capable of keeping the soil stuck until the soil has recovered. Probably because they don't even understand any of this.

Anyway, this is just a farang way of thinking. And it is very un-Thai....

[BusyBee123]

maybe a business opportunity for the many gardners and their petrol powerd leaf blowers which are just as effective blowing sand of the road

[Mark Wolfe]

neverdie

Clearly, if there is grit between the two, the amount of friction increases dramatically". This is INCORRECT. What you are talking about here is commonly referred to the 'Coefficient of friction' between a tyre and a surface. If there is sand on the road, as in this situation, the co-efficient of friction DECREASES.

You are right; I got that backwards.

I find it very interesting that you have been riding a 'two wheeler' for 20 years & that you consider yourself 'skilled'. I have absolutely no doubt with 20 years in the saddle you have developed certain skills, some of which are good practice, some of which are not so good.

What skills do you divine from my posts that I have regarding driving that are "not so good"?

I still say that all this driving school stuff and front brake ratio and so on are all probably valid (except my going to driving school), but I hold to my view that the vast majority of people on Samui driving bikes are not experienced, and if they have some experience with motor-biking, it is on conditions far better than here.

For the record, yes, I use my front brake -- I know when to use it and when not to. But most people renting bikes here, I believe from observation, don't regularly drive a small two-wheeler.

(Oh, but the way, I have done over 14,000km on a six-month trip through India and Nepal on an Enfield, staying in 57 Indian cities and 7 in Nepal -- all without a spill.)

Having ridden a Vespa (a small-wheel-size bike) and this Mio of mine now for a combined almost 24 years (and that's nearly every day), I am not sure what insight into real world driving some school could give me. Sure, I don't know how to ride motocross very well (have done it) or racing bikes, or overkill bikes or stunt bikes or those motorcycles that go round and round in the cage ball, but considering I have more experience than a lot of people have years on the earth clock, I think I am in a position of authority.

If you've been scuba diving for 24 years, I don't presume to tell you that you that some of your skill are not so good. I would assume you are extremely adept.

As for the sand on the ghostroad...I am tempted to say that although the sandy conditions contribute to the problem, I wonder how much blame should be laid at the feet of the drivers. The original poster mentioned that he was unsure if alcohol was involved in the latest accident. I wonder too.

[goldfish]

I am not sure what insight into real world driving some school could give me. Sure, I don't know how to ride motocross very well (have done it) or racing bikes, or overkill bikes or stunt bikes or those motorcycles that go round and round in the cage ball, but considering I have more experience than a lot of people have years on the earth clock, I think I am in a position of authority.

I know of the california superbike school, maybe you could learn something here rather than turn this into yet another pointless argumentative thread.

My auntie had many years of driving experience. Never had an accident, seen hundreds. There was no way you'd ever get me in her vehicle

[neverdie]

Mark, You obviously have vast experience on motorcycles & the more you post the more experience you reveal & my comments were never intended to criticise you personally but rather point out that MOST people would benifit greatly by advanced training & they would surprise themselves with what they actually do learn. As to 'divine' from your posts which riding traits of yours that are not 'best practice' I wonder what magic you think I possess.

You seem to (& I may be wrong) think that rider training wouldnt teach you anything for real world riding, but thats exactly what it is about (or what purpose would it hold). There are many types of rider training, from learner, defensive, advanced, racing courses & so on & obviously someone with your experience is going to learn little on a beginners course but if you honestly believe you couldnt possibly continue to learn, to sharpen you skills, to improve you reactions in emergency situations then its your loss not mine. Perhaps you posses some devine riding skill that the majority of humans don't possess. It is clear from what you have stated in your posts that you obviously have considerable experience but theres plenty of other people that have been MOVING vehicles around for years without accident & quite frankly their real driving ability is severly lacking. In other words some people have better driving luck than management.

I agree with everything you've said about the inexperienced riders on Samui, even as far as those foriegners that havent experienced the style of bike & or roads that Samui or Thailand offers.

As for the ghostroad, I don't blame it at all, the first thing any driver or rider should do when operating a motor vehicle is DRIVE TO THE CONDITIONS. There isnt a place in the world where conditions are constantly changing. Roads don't kill people, vehicles don't kill people, I think you will find that mechanical failure rates in fatal motor vehicle collisions are very small. Sand on a road, rain on a road, holes in the bitumen they are all just the conditions we are faced with....its driver/rider behaviour that needs to be adjusted. This would be one of the main reasons you havent come a busta yet, because you constantly adjust your driving to the conditions....& you're right not many people here seem to do that....they're all to busy trying to overtake the next vehicle or too busy talking on their mobile or whatever. This is one of the reasons that the term 'Motor vehicle accident' is a misnomer, because it infers that it was an accident, but the term accident suggests that no blame can be attributed to. This was one of the main reasons many Police Departments worldwide changed their special traffic 'accident' investigation units from things like "Accident Investigation Squad" to "Crash Investigation Unit", "Collision Investigation" and so on. People are normally to blame first, then comes all the other factors....water, sand, oil etc etc.

For the record, I beleive in a perfect world, all drivers and riders would be required to undergo extensive driver rider training prior to entering upon public roads. Further to this drivers & riders should attend re-fresher courses throughout life, to keep their skills sharp and help deal with those bad & lazy habits that humans tend to develop over time (when driving). This will never happen in my country, yet along a country like thailand.

The strange thing in this world (most parts) it seems so dam_n acceptable for people to be killed in motor vehicle collisions. If someone takes a gun, like in Port Arthur (Tasmania) Australia and masacare's dozens of people in the street, there is an absolute revolt and people and governments do all sorts of strange things in order to prevent this from occurring again. In the Australian case, gun laws were changed and the Australian Govt spent millions of dollars in a gun buy back scheme....there was a massive knee-jerk reaction. Yet hundreds and hundreds of people are killed in Australia by motorvehicle & the real issues are relatively addressed. You would only have to look at the pathetic sentances passed down by courts in relation to people killing other people with a motor vehicle & you would understand what im talking about.

Anyway Mark, good for you, do as you like, don't let me upset you....and fool moreso to all those with skills much greater than yours who bother to spend money to improve their chances.

Hope you continue to keep it upright and enjoy!

[limbos]

Still the answer about the people involved in the accidents wearing a helmet hasn't been answered by the OP. Even with the flimsy helmets on sale here, there would be some kind of protection for the victims, since the OP talks about head and facial injuries. It's unfortunate but it's not very difficult to assume that the victims weren't wearing a helmet.

Maybe the OP should berate these drivers about the use of helmets.

[neverdie]

I am not sure what insight into real world driving some school could give me. Sure, I don't know how to ride motocross very well (have done it) or racing bikes, or overkill bikes or stunt bikes or those motorcycles that go round and round in the cage ball, but considering I have more experience than a lot of people have years on the earth clock, I think I am in a position of authority.

I know of the california superbike school, maybe you could learn something here rather than turn this into yet another pointless argumentative thread.

My auntie had many years of driving experience. Never had an accident, seen hundreds. There was no way you'd ever get me in her vehicle

EXACTLY ! Theres the old saying "Never had an accident.....caused thousand tho"!