Fire At Santika Night Club

[meom]

I enjoyed this bit "There was plenty of alcohol fumes in the place and four years of buildup."

many didnt.

there was an long interview last night on thai channel 7 with somebody who was there , it might have been a dj or an employee , i didnt catch the beginning , and one of the things he said was that bottles of spirits were falling to the ground , breaking and exploding and that people were being set alight by them. this was in or near to a vip or bar area.

Point taken Tax and sorry if my comment offend anybody.

I assume however that the bottles of spirits that were breaking/exploding when the fire was already there.

I don't really believe that natural alcohol fumes from drinks etc. present in the air would have lit up. If that was the case somebody lighting a sigarete might have been the reason for the fire starting.

Best to leave it to the fire experts which I have to admit I'm not.

[StevieH]

BravinBangkok notified me I had made the "Sun" newspaper in the UK online website.

As usual I noticed they have completely screwed up what was said in my post .......... I never trust any newspaper reports on anything.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2087881.ece

Sun....... "A poster called Yabaaaa claimed fire safety certificates could be BOUGHT and SOLD easily by club and hotel bosses."

In fact this is what I said............"I can confirm that in Thailand ISO can be easily "bought", my wifes old company (who'm she worked for) did exactly this. It makes the company look better to countries outside of Thailand such as Europe for exports I should think. The reality is they dont have ISO standards at all.I doubt anything will change regarding fire safety here although it will give my wife more ammunition to stamp out the smoking occurring at the condo blocks where w e rent out units and the Farangs who mainly flout this rule due to their perceptions you can ignore all rules/laws in Thailand"

i wouldn't trust that excuse for a newspaper to report that rain is wet.

staggered by the scale of this tragedy, absolutely horrific for everyone involved. RIP to those that lost their lives in such an avoidable catastrophe.

[madi]

Just viewing the footage of all the sparklers- wonder if the sulphur fumes collecting at the ceiling acted as accelerant or even ignition?

Sulphur fumes are heavier than air so no to this theory.

You are funny. How sulpher fumes rise. HAAAA AAAAAA

Maybe you know when you heat air you can put it in a balloon and it goes up. Oil is very very heavy but when the oil fires were burning in Kuwait, the air did go up a few thousand feet. So much for my basic physics for children.

Here it is for kids.

http://www.historyforkids.org/scienceforki...hotairrises.htm

Slam dunk. Madi. You spotted the troll.

I was just thinking that smoke from the sparklers drifts in the air so how can the fumes be ruled out as a contributing factor?

Clearly some people have no moral credibility if they are willing to troll on this topic.

I think the people who are talking about the fumes igniting are likely correct.

The little New years toys give off a gas. It was very warm and did rise to the ceiling. That much is KNOW DOUBT true. It is extremely likely that something ignited the fumes at the ceiling and the disaster then occurred.

Take to mind people that a fireman who is experienced will be able to tell if the fire started on the outside of the roof or in the inside of the roof. They will be able to tell where the hottest burn area was. They also will be able to tell where the fire began. They can tell this from examination.

If the fire started inside or out will be clear.

What started the fire is still not clear but what fueled the fire is. The fumes from the hundreds of little fireworks flames gave the fuel. Did an electrical wire start the fire or did a fireworks? it does not matter much since without the fuel stuck on top of the inside of the roof, the same little Spark would have done no damage.

Letting 1000 people use the flames giving off a hot gas was the disaster.

Once the fumes were ignited, they spread with the hot gas fumes. That is why the entire place seemed to catch fire all at once.

A normal fire would have started in just one area slowly and then increased and spread. But as we all know a fire based on a gas explodes.

You play with your gas stove and you know that.

The little burning toys in their hands caused the disaster and this will likely be the report.

I am a father of two and this story is sad. The young kids were just having fun and this terrible thing happened.

I agree that the building was unsafe without the needed fire exits. Look how many died in the basement trying to get out. Yet most did get out and for that I am thankful.

My feelings go out to all who lost so much.

[dingdongrb]

BravinBangkok notified me I had made the "Sun" newspaper in the UK online website.

As usual I noticed they have completely screwed up what was said in my post .......... I never trust any newspaper reports on anything.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2087881.ece

Sun....... "A poster called Yabaaaa claimed fire safety certificates could be BOUGHT and SOLD easily by club and hotel bosses."

In fact this is what I said............"I can confirm that in Thailand ISO can be easily "bought", my wifes old company (who'm she worked for) did exactly this. It makes the company look better to countries outside of Thailand such as Europe for exports I should think. The reality is they dont have ISO standards at all.I doubt anything will change regarding fire safety here although it will give my wife more ammunition to stamp out the smoking occurring at the condo blocks where w e rent out units and the Farangs who mainly flout this rule due to their perceptions you can ignore all rules/laws in Thailand"

See, I knew you shouldn't have mentioned ISO (and I still wonder why) as ISO does not pertain to safety.

[aromsia]

is jonathan head the journalist accused by a police colonel of lesse majeste ?

Yes, the same guy. Although that issue seems to have gone away for now.

Apparently not. I read somewhere that he was just charged a third time just a few weeks ago (by the same guy).

I agree with taxexile - I thought his reporting and analysis (still on the BBC Website) was spot-on. And as taxexile points out - it now seems he was indeed correct to raise these things about safety standards and corruption.

Note: I suspect those who take issue with Head's reporting on this horrible event are probably PAD/Demo Party supporters who don't like Head because he's one of the few journalists (other than the Economist and Sing Straits Times) to report on the class divide of red/yellow and the corrupt bureaucracy that profits from the rich families and corporate-patrons who back the PAD. They don't want anyone to stray from the anti-thaksin storyline. Head annoys them.

Edited January 2, 2009 by aromsia

[mikederson]

I heard about the fire on local radio stations in New York City, as well as the American public radio stations and CNN, almost as soon as it happened. Strangely, Bangkok Post and The Nation weren't reporting it at all until some time after.

The international media was quicker to pick up on it than the English-language Thai media.

[Losangels]

Strangely, Bangkok Post and The Nation weren't reporting it at all until some time after.

They had the night off partying

[samgrowth]

For now the owner of Santika is being charged for allowing underage customers in his club since one of the dead people was 17 yrs old.

Out of 1,000 who when it, I am sure a handful will managed to slip in. What's the big deal on that. This will happen no matter where. NY, Bagdad, Soho, you name it.

This is how Thailand deal with its problems. Charge them for allowing 17 yrs old to enter; case close. The penalty is minimum, maybe 500 Baht fine. Like Samak was charge for being a cook, etc, which become a joke for CNN & BBC.

[Losangels]

For now the owner of Santika is being charged for allowing underage customers in his club since one of the dead people was 17 yrs old.

Out of 1,000 who when it, I am sure a handful will managed to slip in. What's the big deal on that. This will happen no matter where. NY, Bagdad, Soho, you name it.

This is how Thailand deal with its problems. Charge them for allowing 17 yrs old to enter; case close. The penalty is minimum, maybe 500 Baht fine. Like Samak was charge for being a cook, etc, which become a joke for CNN & BBC.

Plea bargain for a lesser charge with the authorities?

[k1w1]

@madi

A very plausible theory.

The theme of the night was fire. They booked "Burn" to play at midnight and they had organized to have many sparklers available for handing out to the crowd. Maybe they had done some estimates on the fire risk and thought that the ceilings were high enough to handle it? Most likely not and they just wanted to have a memorable event so that people would come back once they relocated.

When was the last time the air con units were cleaned? They knew they were closing so why bother spending money on maintenance. They probably thought they could wing it for an extra week/month. We all know how badly smoke affects aircon units so did the air stop circulating at the peak and cause even more toxic gaseous buildup than expected?

Too many people with added combustible fumes from burning sparklers, dodgy aircon units possibly giving up, no doubt crappy wiring due to general standard of QC applied to other important safety matters and definitely lack of exits, sprinklers and safety lighting.

Still all the above doesn't rule out arson on the part of the building owners. Easy way to make some extra cash from the insurance payout. With the official spokesperson for the police already writing it off before the investigation even started it is highly reminiscent of the standard template that is applied to these type of events in Thailand. The whole situation is completely typical.

The cops and the courts are 100% negligible for allowing the place to continue functioning. Definitely a textbook case of the Mai pen rai attitude at work here.

The thing is that wealthy Thais and expats generally are happy to pay for higher quality control and in this case the QC was lacking so why did people frequent the place if it was such an obvious risk?

Because that's why most people who come to Thailand are looking for. Adventure, risk, danger. All fun in the sun with the chance of getting caught out to make things more exciting.

Why do the Thais allow this condition to continue? Because most of them don't know any other way of life.

Will things change from this event? Doubtful.

[geriatrickid]

The initial pre autopsy sortings are being released to the media with the injuries consistent with the nature of the fire; Smoke inhalation and broken bones indicative of a panic surge (aka trampling). Many nasal and oral passage described as blackened and coated with residue suggestive of burning plastics (to be verified). Severe burn injuries occurred after incapacitation, not as part of the initial event. I anticipate that what we will see demonstrated is that some people may have fallen. In the dark, they were not seen and people fell over them succumbing to smoke in the delay. What the medical visual inspection information release says to me is that the eyewitness reports as to the nature of the fire and its manifestation are reliable.

As an aside, alcohol fumes from distilled spirits do not build up for 4 years in an area that is open to air circulation. Alcohol is an R-OH for those of you that remember your Orgo. It is volatile and dispersed in the environment. Plastics and manmade fabrics, along with wood chip furniture release such things as dioxin, cyanide and produce carbon monoxide. All of these substances can incapacitate and kill in minutes.

[mrtoad]

is jonathan head the journalist accused by a police colonel of lesse majeste ?

Yes, the same guy. Although that issue seems to have gone away for now.

Apparently not. I read somewhere that he was just charged a third time just a few weeks ago (by the same guy).

I agree with taxexile - I thought his reporting and analysis (still on the BBC Website) was spot-on. And as taxexile points out - it now seems he was indeed correct to raise these things.

Note: I suspect those who take issue with Head's reporting on this horrible event are probably PAD/Demo Party supporters who don't like Head because he's one of the few journalists (other than the Economist and Sing Straits Times) to report on the class divide of red/yellow and the corrupt bureaucracy that profits from the rich families and corporate-patrons who back the PAD. They don't want anyone to stray from the anti-thaksin storyline. Head annoys them.

OK, thanks for the update. but can we keep PAD out of this thread? I find it rather distasteful that you feel the need to bring that debate into this subject, considering the horiffic events of Thursday morning.

[yabaaaa]

BravinBangkok notified me I had made the "Sun" newspaper in the UK online website.

As usual I noticed they have completely screwed up what was said in my post .......... I never trust any newspaper reports on anything.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article2087881.ece

Sun....... "A poster called Yabaaaa claimed fire safety certificates could be BOUGHT and SOLD easily by club and hotel bosses."

In fact this is what I said............"I can confirm that in Thailand ISO can be easily "bought", my wifes old company (who'm she worked for) did exactly this. It makes the company look better to countries outside of Thailand such as Europe for exports I should think. The reality is they dont have ISO standards at all.I doubt anything will change regarding fire safety here although it will give my wife more ammunition to stamp out the smoking occurring at the condo blocks where w e rent out units and the Farangs who mainly flout this rule due to their perceptions you can ignore all rules/laws in Thailand"

See, I knew you shouldn't have mentioned ISO (and I still wonder why) as ISO does not pertain to safety.

I didnt if you recall Steffi did and I replied to her question there was no mention of fire in her quote that you put in your post.

QUOTE (steffi @ 2009-01-01 12:38:47) This may be irrelevant but what is the purpose of all that "ISO xxxx..." certification that you often see in Bangkok?

Is that obtained thru back handers too?

[kiakaha]

i've probably been to santika a dozen times over the years...i remember it being nigh on impossible to move/get to the bar/ toilet etc.. when the place is full, even on a regular friday night.... the surge to the door must have been terrible.....sadly, a year from now, nothing will have changed in thailand, even with this tragedy. that is the nature of thailand, as history has proven.

[samgrowth]

Following The Nation's report, the BP has now reported that the building didn't meet zoning requirements and was subsequently registered as a food shop which couldn't operate after midnight.

Hence, besides who is at fault for this tragedy, there will also be many legal issues as to whether the building met building codes (it doesn't sound like it did), why it was allowed to operate after midnight when registered as a night time food shop and what the Administrative Court's injunction covered and why was this njunction in force for so long.

Why it take so long? Because there is money under the table. For the police, for the administrator or for the court? Your guess is just as good as mind.

**off topic discussion removed***sbk

[mikederson]

By the way, this sounds very similar to the nightclub fire in Rhode Island, USA a few years ago. Where they set off some small "sparkling" fireworks on stage, which ignited the flammable foam ceiling and immediately set the nightclub ablaze. 100 people died.

The nightclub owners were charged with 100 counts of involuntary manslaughter and sentenced to prison. Over $200 million dollars were paid out to the victim's families by the nightclub, marketers, and insurance companies.

I doubt there will be a similar outcome to the Santika case.

[Losangels]

Sadly very little will be done as a lesson for prevention, something similiar will happen again, again and again

[justanothercybertosser]

BravinBangkok notified me I had made the "Sun" newspaper in the UK online website.

As usual I noticed they have completely screwed up what was said in my post .......... I never trust any newspaper reports on anything.

Sun....... "A poster called Yabaaaa claimed fire safety certificates could be BOUGHT and SOLD easily by club and hotel bosses."

In fact this is what I said............"I can confirm that in Thailand ISO can be easily "bought", my wifes old company (who'm she worked for) did exactly this. It makes the company look better to countries outside of Thailand such as Europe for exports I should think. The reality is they dont have ISO standards at all.I doubt anything will change regarding fire safety here although it will give my wife more ammunition to stamp out the smoking occurring at the condo blocks where w e rent out units and the Farangs who mainly flout this rule due to their perceptions you can ignore all rules/laws in Thailand"

I am afraid that as long as you are an anonymous poster on an internet forum with nothing else than your anonymous word to back your 2nd hand story up, the most that you can expect from any newspaper is that you are 'claiming' this potentially libelous statement. There are libel laws, and news outlets have to protect themselves. This is standard procedure.

A higher quality newspaper would never give an anonymous internet poster any space at all, not without having his identity first, and fact checking his statements.

[benjamat]

My sincere condolences to the those who lost family and loved ones and to all those who are injured, I am sure many badly burned, a very sad new year beginning for many.

[singa-traz]

By the way, this sounds very similar to the nightclub fire in Rhode Island, USA a few years ago. Where they set off some small "sparkling" fireworks on stage, which ignited the flammable foam ceiling and immediately set the nightclub ablaze. 100 people died.

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Station_nightclub_fire

[Dissolution]

There were not hundreds of sparklers. Nor were there a thousand.

There were something more akin to 40, to maybe 60 at best. They were thrown from the stage only to the crowd in the pit. Might look like lots in videos, but it really wasn't as much as it might seem in the videos.

As for the person saying that people would have noticed from outside that the roof was on fire; someone obviously did. Someone ran in and shouted fire, just as the flame started on the ceiling. I'd probably be dead if not for this person.

(If anyone was wondering, I thought it was part of the show. Turned around and topped off my drink, then relaxed to watch the 'realistic indoor fire display'.)

Edited January 2, 2009 by Dissolution

[sbk]

Off-topic posts have been edited and their responses deleted. If you MUST discuss the Thai political scene then do it in an appropriate thread but NOT this one.

Further such posts will be deleted in full without any notice to the poster.

[kat]

Still all the above doesn't rule out arson on the part of the building owners. Easy way to make some extra cash from the insurance payout. With the official spokesperson for the police already writing it off before the investigation even started it is highly reminiscent of the standard template that is applied to these type of events in Thailand. The whole situation is completely typical.

According to the police in an article a ways back, their insurance policy expired months ago. That still doesn't rule anything in or out, but this is the official word from the police so far.

[Alliecat]

There were not hundreds of sparklers. Nor were there a thousand.

There were something more akin to 40, to maybe 60 at best. They were thrown from the stage only to the crowd in the pit. Might look like lots in videos, but it really wasn't as much as it might seem in the videos.

As for the person saying that people would have noticed from outside that the roof was on fire; someone obviously did. Someone ran in and shouted fire, just as the flame started on the ceiling. I'd probably be dead if not for this person.

(If anyone was wondering, I thought it was part of the show. Turned around and topped off my drink, then relaxed to watch the 'realistic indoor fire display'.)

I've been reading this thread since yesterday morning. And can only imagine how painful this must be for those, like yourself, that have been directly affected by this. My heart goes out to you, and to all those affected by this.

What you have mentioned here is interesting as it is the first time that I have read/heard someone mention that reports of fire were mentioned by those outside. It does possibly take things on a different tangent and sync with what you mentioned in an earlier post with regards to fireworks being let off outside the club, from the buildings next door.

Edited January 2, 2009 by Alliecat

[k1w1]

Still all the above doesn't rule out arson on the part of the building owners. Easy way to make some extra cash from the insurance payout. With the official spokesperson for the police already writing it off before the investigation even started it is highly reminiscent of the standard template that is applied to these type of events in Thailand. The whole situation is completely typical.

According to the police in an article a ways back, their insurance policy expired months ago. That still doesn't rule anything in or out, but this is the official word from the police so far.

I assumed they were talking about the club owners not the building owners. Either way how is it possible a functioning nightclub/restaurant with capacity for 800+ can have no insurance policy? Sounds like a very messy state of affairs even in Thailand. Surely they could get a short term coverage for the bar due to the number of people on the premesis and the value of the property?

Not to mention that there must be a law that says entertainment venues have to have at least third party type insurance if not fire and water damage etc...

I expect someone round here must know these details as they are written in Thai law.

[Briggsy]

What's the Chinese Embassy getting involved for. There haven't even been any reports of Chinese nationals being at the club. Very odd.

[Briggsy]

Just last year in September 2007, in Bangkok, The Mandarin Hotel caught fire and 16 foreign tourists were injured. Nobody died. The police stated there was no functioning sprinkler system and this fact was also pointed out by the 400 tourists who were evacuated from the hotel. Guests also complained there was no fire alarm and no evacuation procedure. No staff were on hand to instruct guests. There was no emergency lighting or floor lights to show emergency exits. In the aftermath of the fire, management declined to make any comment and could not be contacted No charges were ever pressed against the hotel owners or management. I could add no lessons were learned by the BMA or police. All sound familiar?

[kat]

Still all the above doesn't rule out arson on the part of the building owners. Easy way to make some extra cash from the insurance payout. With the official spokesperson for the police already writing it off before the investigation even started it is highly reminiscent of the standard template that is applied to these type of events in Thailand. The whole situation is completely typical.

According to the police in an article a ways back, their insurance policy expired months ago. That still doesn't rule anything in or out, but this is the official word from the police so far.

I assumed they were talking about the club owners not the building owners. Either way how is it possible a functioning nightclub/restaurant with capacity for 800+ can have no insurance policy? Sounds like a very messy state of affairs even in Thailand.

Yes, I agree, but who knows. I think there have been so many damaging details coming out of this mess - with the lack of insurance just one - that would have condemned the owners elsewhere on each single count, nevermind the whole lot. But, TIT, and so far we've heard that charges will be pursued for underage patrons.

[BkkAnimalover]

The men in the picture is still missed He is Mr. Yeo Bee Soon (He sometimes also goes by the name of Leslie) a Singaporean Man 40 years old ,his family can't contact Him , they send me the attached picture. Probably when the fire start He was near His Singaporean friend Mr.Teo Szie Siong that has been confirmed death . I already check all the posted telephone numbers and I also mail his picture . I always get prompt and professional answers but sadly all negative. This man seems to be disappeared . I know that there are 8-9 males death body nameless and one of that body could be Him , there are also 15 nameless injured "nameless" Injured persons at the hospital but as I mention above they told me that nobody match his picture and his description. Even a small detail could be an help so if anyone notice Him PLS. contact me .

[geriatrickid]

What's the Chinese Embassy getting involved for. There haven't even been any reports of Chinese nationals being at the club. Very odd.

I too was curious as to the sudden outpouring of generosity. The Chinese government only acts in this manner when it is to the benefit of its agenda.

The money is for the purchase of Chinese medicine, which may be a way of getting rid of products at their shelf life end and getting some good PR out of it. I apologize if this seems too cynical but this is what happens with medicines with expiry dates. It gets donated or sold at salvage prices.

As for the Chinese expertise? I am curious about that, since China doesn't have the greatest reputation for burn units. I won't even go into the allegations of unethical donor skin graft harvests, but there are enough published reports about organ removals from "condemned" prisoners. In this case, I think the Thais are just as capable of handling this without benefit of Chinese "expertise". Without belittling the nature of injuries or their severity, the Thai hospital system does have the capacity to handle the patients. There are military facilities that can accomodate if needed. Sadly, the countries that lead the world in burn treatments are those nations where the population has a significant exposure, which means war casualties. Currently the leading centers of excellence are in the USA, Israel and the UK, not China. Something just way too odd about the Chinese offer. Very out of the ordinary.