Fire At Santika Night Club

[bravingbangkok]

QUOTE (HorseDoctor @ 2009-01-01 22:02:41)

Some cultures revere life, others don't.

It's just the posturing of Tland as a safe place that gets me..Tourists are really clueless to the realities.

that sums it up in a nutshell.

Hopefully these poor souls have not died in vain and there will be a vast and immediate improvement in the safety. There is always hope and it is more likely to happen under this PM than any before.

[john b good]

Will the government change the law now to ensure all public areas have adequate fire exits etc?....no.

Money is more important than lives in Thailand.

In fact a week from now this will all be forgotton and it will be business as usual from Saturday.

As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, this kind of thing has happened in the States before, and I would guess many other countries. Doesn't stop idiots like you making your uneducated comments as usual though.

Yes!!, it may happen in the States and other countries but nowhere with greater frequency or severity than in the realm

[worldfun]

yes a soi cowboy fire not long after 2am this morning - was told it was long gun, but OK might be rawhide next door as mentioned. thick smoke out, but as reported no fatalities which is great - no major crowds I guess

[HorseDoctor]

I see a lot of posters criticizing Thailand, its authorities and the establishment owners themselves. Although it is obvious that many things can and should be changed with regard to safety aspects in Thailand, just where does personal accountability come into play here?

Stop asking for and/or counting on government officials and business owners to babysit you, ultimately each person has the most influence upon their own safety and making the prudent decisions about such are your responsibility. If you don't like the arrangement of a certain establishment's exits.....leave. If you walk into a situation that is overcrowded.....leave. Take responsibility for your own safety and stop counting on or demanding from other people that they assure safety for you.

I have left many overcrowded establishments, changed taxis and even avoided certain places at certain times because it was prudent to do so in the name of safety. None of those people deserved what happened to them and it is a tragedy in anyone's book. Instead of looking for who to blame and criticize, take a minute and realize it is up to yourself to avoid these situations and assure (as much as possible) your own safety.

Let us hope that all societies learn from the tragedy but seeing that this has happened before in many other countries, it is doubtful that we, as the human race, will be wise enough to learn from history.

Regards to all!

Martian

I disagree 100%. Good for whoever already saw this was a hazard and left but not for those who came with a large crowd and was forced to stay. Plus for you first point, how many of us farangs questioned something about Thailand and tried to do something about it and FAILED? There were many times I got into arguments when Thails filled their car with gas with the engine still on and lost every time. There were times I put on a seatbelt and they ejected it saying "mai pen rai". My individual concerns for safety failed.

And when you live somewhere, you have nothing to do with a neighbor causing a fire or gas leak but your property and life is still in danger.

You can't escape certain hazards.

edit: I am glad I won the arguments where some drunk person tried to give me a ride home when I was gonna walk. Took over 20 minutes of bickering but I did that.

To add to the above taste of reality I would just say that everything good has a bad side. Thailand is a heavy heavy heavy place to live but unfortunately it has its bad sides and safety is heavily overlooked.

For Johnathen Head and co to start a witch hunt and bring the truth to the surface is just silly and pathetic and quite frankly a waste of time, this also just adds to my theory that Johnathen Head hates Thailand and thus should not be reporting here. All he seems to do is bring it's faults to light and nothing else, ** no doubt as before end up in trouble with the authorities. Report how horrible it was and that the fire exits were sub standard but do not get political about it explaining to the British public that police and army officals take back handers ! how unprofessional to use a time of saddness and tragedy as a political and social ploy....are you at war with Thai society or something ?

So, you'd have Mr Head report just some facts but not all? How is it the place had an operating permit with substandard exits? C'mon, this society is a corrupt as they come and people die because of it regularly.

[bravingbangkok]

To add to the above taste of reality I would just say that everything good has a bad side. Thailand is a heavy heavy heavy place to live but unfortunately it has its bad sides and safety is heavily overlooked.

For Johnathen Head and co to start a witch hunt and bring the truth to the surface is just silly and pathetic and quite frankly a waste of time, this also just adds to my theory that Johnathen Head hates Thailand and thus should not be reporting here. All he seems to do is bring it's faults to light and nothing else, he truly is a prize penis and no doubt as before end up in trouble with the authorities. Report how horrible it was and that the fire exits were sub standard but do not get political about it explaining to the British public that police and army officals take back handers ! how unprofessional to use a time of saddness and tragedy as a political and social ploy....are you at war with Thai society or something ?

So, you'd have Mr Head report just some facts but not all? How is it the place had an operating permit with substandard exits? C'mon, this society is a corrupt as they come and people die because of it regularly.

In no way am I disputing that and completely agree with you.

I just do not like Mr Heads style of reporting. No need to make a comment with reference to back handers within the army and police forces. You just cannot say those types of things without backing them up immediately with evidense. Do you not agree ?

[HorseDoctor]

Will the government change the law now to ensure all public areas have adequate fire exits etc?....no.

Money is more important than lives in Thailand.

In fact a week from now this will all be forgotton and it will be business as usual from Saturday.

As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, this kind of thing has happened in the States before, and I would guess many other countries. Doesn't stop idiots like you making your uneducated comments as usual though.

Yes!!, it may happen in the States and other countries but nowhere with greater frequency or severity than in the realm

And as also pointed out, in countries that are not innundated with corruption , laws get changed in response to tragedies . People get indicted.

Did anyone ever go to jail over the hotel fire in Jomtien 3 years ago where fire exits doors were locked ?

[indothai]

I just don't get it... fireworks, sparklers, INDOORS ?!! I really don't get it... did they hire a 2 year old to handle the party?

[Thai at Heart]

This is indeed a very tragic event.

Unfortunately Jonathan Head hasn't had many subjects of a positive matter on which to report in the last few months. I don't see any issue with reporting about back handers. We who live here know this is how buildings get signed off in the first place. This is what stops spot checks by police, it is what encourages cutting corners in the name of profit and this is what contribute to allowing this kind of thing to happen. Backhanders exist everywhere in the world, but the scale here is larger and can have had a direct effect in this situation.

If his reporting even to the smallest degree awakens any change, good.

I feel so sorry for the people who have lost their lives in this, and maybe nothing could have been done. As many have asked here, will it bring about change? Please. The laws are all on the books, please enforce them to help prevent a tragedy like this occurring again.

[bravingbangkok]

Will the government change the law now to ensure all public areas have adequate fire exits etc?....no.

Money is more important than lives in Thailand.

In fact a week from now this will all be forgotton and it will be business as usual from Saturday.

As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, this kind of thing has happened in the States before, and I would guess many other countries. Doesn't stop idiots like you making your uneducated comments as usual though.

Yes!!, it may happen in the States and other countries but nowhere with greater frequency or severity than in the realm

And as also pointed out, in countries that are not innundated with corruption , laws get changed in response to tragedies . People get indicted.

Did anyone ever go to jail over the hotel fire in Jomtien 3 years ago where fire exits doors were locked ?

What was the fire in the club in New Jersey or something where the doors were locked as well....f'ing disgrace !

[HorseDoctor]

I think journalistic commentary is appropriate without providing immediate evidence. It's news, not a courtroom.

Let the TAT sue BBC for libel and then we can all have a look at the evidence- in all the preventable tragedies.

[STEELINOX]

I just don't get it... fireworks, sparklers, INDOORS ?!! I really don't get it... did they hire a 2 year old to handle the party?

Its quite the scene; the people were given sparklers to use inside the club !

The management culda given them all sticks of dynamite and they wuldn'ta noticed the difference !

Too sad...

[bravingbangkok]

I think journalistic commentary is appropriate without providing immediate evidence. It's news, not a courtroom.

Let the TAT sue BBC for libel and then we can all have a look at the evidence- in all the preventable tragedies.

Maybe you are right but I just feel that the statement he made was not well timed and could have waited until we knwo the real facts about fire exits etc etc

No doubting that awareness of the lax saftey regualtions is a good thing.

[taxexile]

Let the TAT sue BBC for libel

there wouldnt be any sueing , journalists who are too critical of thailand in the international media might not get their work permits or visas renewed ........ investigative journalism hardly exists here , and those that investigate too deeply sometimes disappear.

[Old Man River]

Apparently, this building's not meeting code has been an ongoing issue for 4 years:

Santika Pub open on Administrative Court's injunction: deputy police chief

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...ty-police-chief

[sriracha john]

Police: One week to reveal cause of fire at Santika Pub

Police are not yet able to prosecute the fire-ravaged Sanika Pub’s owners in the premise early morning of Thursday (January 1, 2009), while the evidence investigation team revealed that it may take up to a week to conclude what the actual cause of the fire was.

The evidence investigation team’s officials visited the fire incident scene at Satika Pub, Thonglo soi 9, on Thursday to collect evidence for their further investigation.Thus far they could not yet conclude the actual cause of the fire, but suspect that it could have been caused by either the fireworks used during the count down or arson.

Moreover, the Office of Police Forensic Science has set up an identity verification unit at the accident scene and has been sending the remains back to Thonglo police station.

So far families and relatives of the believed fire victims have continuously been at the station in order to retrieve the bodies. However, some victims suffered serious burns and their bodies could not yet be identified, hence, they are awaiting for identification from their families and relatives.

Meanwhile, a staff of Thaivivat Insurance Public Company Ltd has confirmed that Mr. Wisook Sejsawat, the owner of the Santika Pub, has purchased insurance policy from the company.

Furthermore, Pol Gen Jongrak Jutanon, Royal Thai Police Deputy Commissioner, asserted that thus far police could not yet prosecute the owners of the pub since some of them and staff were also injured from the fire, and so were some witnesses. Hence, the prosecution has to be done in accord to the legal procedures, and the charge will be made to whoever directly caused the fire.

Pol. Gen. Jongrak also stated that such fire resulted in a large number of deaths and injured casualties because the exit was relatively small in proportion of more than 1,000 customers. Due to the panic, everyone must have been rushing to the exit and must have caused suffocation to some unfortunate victims.

- ThaiNews / 2009-01-02

Edited January 2, 2009 by sbk
no bolding of type, no editing whatsoever please-sbk

[HorseDoctor]

Aromsia, start a post about the 'fires' etc in Rhode Island............. this thread is about the sad deaths of young people in the fire in a Bangkok nightclub that claimed those young lives.

Please note, not about the US, but sadness in Thailand that is felt all over the Country............... express yourself somewhere else....

No, this thread is not about " young lives lost."

is about the fire and any discussion pertianing to fires elsewhere, and results of laws changed, people indicted is relevant.

Yes it's sad but all we can do about it is discuss it in an effort change the ways things are. If this bothers you , perhaps you are the one in the wrong thread .

[Thai at Heart]

Maybe you are right but I just feel that the statement he made was not well timed and could have waited until we knwo the real facts about fire exits etc etc

No doubting that awareness of the lax saftey regualtions is a good thing.

Unfortunately the single biggest problem in safety in Thailand is the lack of enforcement and the ability to buy off the enforcement.. From the keeper of the stamp in the building office, to the safety inspector to the police who do spot check, to investigation after the tragedy the back hander IS the problem.

The laws are all on the books, but with no supervision and enforcement all the laws in the world are useless if the process can be commandeered by money. Factories and hotels are supposed to have emergency lights, adequate fire extinguishers, adequate exits, lit exit signs, trained in house staff, evacuation plans etc I wonder if nightclubs are the same.

[bravingbangkok]

They must be the same for night clubs. All clubs should have those ceiling sprinklers that are heat sensative, I mean if it is law now that all Malls and apartments should have them then why not night clubs ?

[HorseDoctor]

Let the TAT sue BBC for libel

there wouldnt be any sueing , journalists who are too critical of thailand in the international media might not get their work permits or visas renewed ........ investigative journalism hardly exists here , and those that investigate too deeply sometimes disappear.

.." And this is Jonathan Head for the BBC reporting on Bangkok, from Burma.."

[sriracha john]

Pub inferno leaves 61 dead

Police are looking for clues into what started the fire at the Santika pub in the first seconds of the New Year, leaving 61 dead and at least 243 injured. The blaze broke out in the early hours of yesterday while some 1,000 revellers were celebrating New Year's Eve and bidding farewell to the pub, which was to be closed after the "Goodbye Santika" party. The pub's lease was due to expire. Crime scene investigators and forensic officers were still collecting evidence and trying to identify bodies yesterday. Police could not reach the pub's owner. Only staff and cashiers were available for questioning. Deputy national police chief Jongrak Juthanont said the investigation would focus on whether the fire was caused by carelessness or accident. But Somchai Frendi, a 28-year-old survivor, told investigators the pub had prepared some special-effect fireworks on the stage for the countdown to the New Year. After the countdown, fireworks reading "Happy New Year" ignited the soundproof ceiling on the second floor and the fire spread to other areas inside the two-storey building , he said. A source at the Metropolitan Police Bureau said the exit door was very narrow, and added there was a backdoor exit, but it was exclusively used by employees. The source said Santika was illegally opened because it was registered as a night-time food shop, which required it to close at midnight . It could not register as an entertainment venue in 2003 after City Hall enforced zoning in Bangkok, the source said.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/1356...-leaves-61-dead

Edited January 2, 2009 by sbk

[Old Man River]

Unfortunately the single biggest problem in safety in Thailand is the lack of enforcement and the ability to buy off the enforcement.

I made a similar comment several pages back. People new to Thailand always jump to the conclusion when a tragedy occurs (and they occur far too often here) that the codes are antiquated. The codes are fine. Enforcement is a joke.

Case in point on this building is the Nation's Breaking News article that this building failed inspection and the police didn't want it to open in 2004. However, the owners got an injunction from the Administrative Court who allowed it to open pending conclusion of the case, which apparently has yet to concluded.

[HorseDoctor]

I"m reminded of when I first landed in Thailand and was outfitting my home, I looked all over for a smoke detector- had to drive to the Home Pro clear across the island to find one.

An earlierl comment about having to be responsible for your own safety hit it on the head. Very very True.

I just wish there wasn't such a cover up on Tland's true nature.

[samgrowth]

In the Titanic, or fire in many in public buildings (hotels, etc) in the past, obstruction have been placed to block emergency exit route, because this routes has been frequently been abuse. I hope it is not the case here.

[Thai at Heart]

Unfortunately the single biggest problem in safety in Thailand is the lack of enforcement and the ability to buy off the enforcement.

I made a similar comment several pages back. People new to Thailand always jump to the conclusion when a tragedy occurs (and they occur far too often here) that the codes are antiquated. The codes are fine. Enforcement is a joke.

Case in point on this building is the Nation's Breaking News article that this building failed inspection and the police didn't want it to open in 2004. However, the owners got an injunction from the Administrative Court who allowed it to open pending conclusion of the case, which apparently has yet to concluded.

4 years to sort this out is an inordinately long time. How did it get built in the first place?

Deputy Police Commissioner-General Pol Gen Jongrak Juthanon said the Metropolitan Police was opposed to the operation of Santika Pub but the pub was allowed to operate by an injunction of the Administrative Court.

Jongrak said.

He said the Metropolitan Police did not allow the pub to be open in 2004 on grounds that the place did not conform to standard but the injunction allowed the pub to operate pending a ruling in the case.

The Nation

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...ty-police-chief

[sriracha john]

Channel 9 saying 20 (or 24) of the unidentified bodies are female, and 8 male.

A possible sad explanation for the disparity might be...

"Everybody was pushing against each other trying to get out to the front door as quickly as possible. I saw people, particularly young girls, being pushed away and crushed underneath as others were stomping on them trying to get out," said Sompong Tritaweelap, who lives in an apartment behind the nightclub.

Victims died from burns, smoke inhalation and injuries during the stampede.

-Associated Press / 2009-01-02

In a panic, unfortunately those that tend to be physically smaller or weaker might have paid for that with their lives...

[kat]

Will the government change the law now to ensure all public areas have adequate fire exits etc?....no.

Money is more important than lives in Thailand.

In fact a week from now this will all be forgotton and it will be business as usual from Saturday.

As pointed out elsewhere in the thread, this kind of thing has happened in the States before, and I would guess many other countries. Doesn't stop idiots like you making your uneducated comments as usual though.

Yes!!, it may happen in the States and other countries but nowhere with greater frequency or severity than in the realm

And as also pointed out, in countries that are not innundated with corruption , laws get changed in response to tragedies . People get indicted.

Did anyone ever go to jail over the hotel fire in Jomtien 3 years ago where fire exits doors were locked ?

What was the fire in the club in New Jersey or something where the doors were locked as well....f'ing disgrace !

And what fire would that be, the Newark fire of 1910? I am including a link with an exhaustive list of fires around the world and subsequent code changes and criminal charges where appropriate. It should also be noted that the 1993 Bangkok doll factory fire was listed as the deadliest in the world (183 killed, 500 injured).

http://www.firehouse.com/magazine/american/disasters.html

Let the TAT sue BBC for libel

there wouldnt be any sueing , journalists who are too critical of thailand in the international media might not get their work permits or visas renewed ........ investigative journalism hardly exists here , and those that investigate too deeply sometimes disappear.

Yes, and even sometimes pondering a question on this website can invoke the wrath of would-be censors in the same vein.

Police: One week to reveal cause of fire at Santika Pub

Police are not yet able to prosecute the fire-ravaged Sanika Pub’s owners in the premise early morning of Thursday (January 1, 2009), while the evidence investigation team revealed that it may take up to a week to conclude what the actual cause of the fire was.

The evidence investigation team’s officials visited the fire incident scene at Satika Pub, Thonglo soi 9, on Thursday to collect evidence for their further investigation. Thus far they could not yet conclude the actual cause of the fire, but suspect that it could have been caused by either the fireworks used during the count down or arson.

Moreover, the Office of Police Forensic Science has set up an identity verification unit at the accident scene and has been sending the remains back to Thonglo police station.

So far families and relatives of the believed fire victims have continuously been at the station in order to retrieve the bodies. However, some victims suffered serious burns and their bodies could not yet be identified, hence, they are awaiting for identification from their families and relatives.

Meanwhile, a staff of Thaivivat Insurance Public Company Ltd has confirmed that Mr. Wisook Sejsawat, the owner of the Santika Pub, has purchased insurance policy from the company.

Furthermore, Pol Gen Jongrak Jutanon, Royal Thai Police Deputy Commissioner, asserted that thus far police could not yet prosecute the owners of the pub since some of them and staff were also injured from the fire, and so were some witnesses. Hence, the prosecution has to be done in accord to the legal procedures, and the charge will be made to whoever directly caused the fire.

Pol. Gen. Jongrak also stated that such fire resulted in a large number of deaths and injured casualties because the exit was relatively small in proportion of more than 1,000 customers. Due to the panic, everyone must have been rushing to the exit and must have caused suffocation to some unfortunate victims.

- ThaiNews / 2009-01-02

Thanks for that article, John. Let's hope the investigation is fair and transparent, hope being the operative word.

Enforcement has always been a problem in Thailand, because judgments are not decided by the Rule of Law. I also personally believe that pyrotechnics should be outlawed for use on club stage shows, and the venues that do use them have a special permit depicting a high level of expertise. But of course, with lax enforcements any standard can be avoided and exploited. It always comes down to enforcements, and the FEAR of consequences and Rule of Law. Without either, there isn't much chance of taking safety or security very seriously.

edit/added:

"After the countdown, fireworks reading "Happy New Year" ignited the soundproof ceiling on the second floor and the fire spread to other areas inside the two-storey building, he said. A source at the Metropolitan Police Bureau said the exit door was very narrow, and added there was a backdoor exit, but it was exclusively used by employees. The source said Santika was illegally opened because it was registered as a night-time food shop, which required it to close at midnight. It could not register as an entertainment venue in 2003 after City Hall enforced zoning in Bangkok, the source said."

Edited January 2, 2009 by kat

[Old Man River]

Following The Nation's report, the BP has now reported that the building didn't meet zoning requirements and was subsequently registered as a food shop which couldn't operate after midnight.

Hence, besides who is at fault for this tragedy, there will also be many legal issues as to whether the building met building codes (it doesn't sound like it did), why it was allowed to operate after midnight when registered as a night time food shop and what the Administrative Court's injunction covered and why was this njunction in force for so long.

[samgrowth]

Deputy Police Commissioner-General Pol Gen Jongrak Juthanon said the Metropolitan Police was opposed to the operation of Santika Pub but the pub was allowed to operate by an injunction of the Administrative Court.

Jongrak said.

He said the Metropolitan Police did not allow the pub to be open in 2004 on grounds that the place did not conform to standard but the injunction allowed the pub to operate pending a ruling in the case.

The Nation

Unfortunate but true. There are so many loops holes in Thai law. However the judges will give verdict to those that favours them. We have seen these so many time already. No wonder why some Farang in ThaiVisa are saying that the Thai courts are run by Kangaroos.

The Airports seize is another good example. How many months now since the initial capure of Phuket airports (followed by Krabi, HatYai, Swampy, and Don Muang). At every occasions AOT file a complaint, the courts rule that is it OK to close them. Not to mention the PM office.

[HorseDoctor]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/01/02...al_30092299.php

"Earlier yesterday, Police Commissioner General Phatcharawat Wongsuwan ruled out the possibility of it being arson, because, he said, nobody would

Edited January 2, 2009 by sbk
no commentary in news reports please--sbk

[gentman]

During big events like concerts or sports or even rushing home for festivals using public transporatations, the rules will be brokened. Overpacked and overloading expecially are very true in Asian countries. I am not a safety expert but i usually think of it when ever i am in such a situation. Where is the escape route!! What if? What am i going to do if? Its always sad to see these things happened. I hope those experts learned and make these places safer and the authorities enforce the regulations strictly. very sad.