New Government

[mrtoad]

Can't they just cancel his passports, normal and Official..............

Inform the country where he is staying, then home he must come.

But no one knows where he is now.

He has a few passports. I don't know if he has a few nationalities.

Is this confirmed?

If so, where would you expect him to be, and what other nationality could he possibly hold?

[Koo82]

I don't know, Mr Toad.

I only know that he is the most suitable man to be Thai Prime Minister.

[aromsia]

Okay, well come on now, Plus. Are you saying that the 'hallowed halls' don't jump to the master of the day? The master of TODAY? Or yesterday or whenever?

If this were true, surely he would not have been found guilty of anything, when his nominee-government was in power ?

As you sooo very well know, but like to avoid...The establishment calls the shots here - and the establishment and their military enforcers made it crystal clear to all arms of the government and executive branches in Spetember 2006 that Thaksin was persona non grata. The re-election of Thaksin's friends embarrassed the military, but that's about all. Everyone else still knew which way the wind was blowing - and of course it was safer to stay upwind of the gunpowder. The collapse of democracy by use of all arms of the bureaucracy, courts, military, etc was predicatable. Populism was to be put down at all costs. There is a clear pattern of this in recent Thai history.

There can't be anyone left in Thailand or the world who doesn't understand this by now - Thailand is not a democratic nation - period.

Edited January 4, 2009 by aromsia

[oceano]

Can't they just cancel his passports, normal and Official..............

Inform the country where he is staying, then home he must come.

But no one knows where he is now.

He has a few passports. I don't know if he has a few nationalities.

Singapore

[mrtoad]

Can't they just cancel his passports, normal and Official..............

Inform the country where he is staying, then home he must come.

But no one knows where he is now.

He has a few passports. I don't know if he has a few nationalities.

Singapore

Are you sure? I don't think the Singaporean governemnt would be too keen on having him there at present.

[Old Man River]

Okay, well come on now, Plus. Are you saying that the 'hallowed halls' don't jump to the master of the day? The master of TODAY? Or yesterday or whenever?

If this were true, surely he would not have been found guilty of anything, when his nominee-government was in power ?

The re-election of Thaksin's friends embarrassed the military, but that's about all.

There can't be anyone left in Thailand or the world who doesn't understand this by now - Thailand is not a democratic nation - period.

Interesting comments in that you mention the re-election of Thaksin's friends (PPP) and then say Thailand is not a democracy.

Well, were "Thaksin's friends" re-elected as you say or not?

[Ricardo]

Okay, well come on now, Plus. Are you saying that the 'hallowed halls' don't jump to the master of the day? The master of TODAY? Or yesterday or whenever?

If this were true, surely he would not have been found guilty of anything, when his nominee-government was in power ?

As you sooo very well know, but like to avoid...The establishment calls the shots here - and the establishment and their military enforcers made it crystal clear to all arms of the government and executive branches in Spetember 2006 that Thaksin was persona non grata. The re-election of Thaksin's friends embarrassed the military, but that's about all. Everyone else still knew which way the wind was blowing - and of course it was safer to stay upwind of the gunpowder. The collapse of democracy by use of all arms of the bureaucracy, courts, military, etc was predicatable. Populism was to be put down at all costs. There is a clear pattern of this in recent Thai history.

There can't be anyone left in Thailand or the world who doesn't understand this by now - Thailand is not a democratic nation - period.

So the 'hallowed halls' jump to the master of the day, as for example when the courts let Thaksin off his mis-declaration of assets in 2001 because he had been legitimised by getting elected, except when they don't, under Thaksin's 2008 nominee-governments and nominee-PMs, by finding him guilty of something ?

Clear as mud !

And Thaksin & TRT were surely still part of the elite establishment, despite their having used populism to get into power initially, they still followed the familiar style of nepotism, cronyism and corruption. This U-turn, to where he now believes in & defends democracy, has only come since he was deposed from power.

As Pasuk Pongpaichit & Chris Baker succinctly put it, in their article in 'Economic & Political Weekly', "Thaksin is an unlikely and unfortunate figure to become the heroic defender of democracy since he does not believe in it, he has manipulated it to make billions, and he overrode liberal democratic principles during his time in power".

[citizen33]

As Pasuk Pongpaichit & Chris Baker succinctly put it, in their article in 'Economic & Political Weekly', "Thaksin is an unlikely and unfortunate figure to become the heroic defender of democracy since he does not believe in it, he has manipulated it to make billions, and he overrode liberal democratic principles during his time in power".

The substantive point is true, but the fate of the 'unlikely' figure and his allies may still illustrate the undermining of democracy. If you can find a serious commentator in a Western university who believes that Thailand is currently operating under democratic principles, I would be most surprised.

[aromsia]

So the 'hallowed halls' jump to the master of the day, ... ?

You think they don't? You're smarter than that - you must be.

By the way, I agree with you that Thaksin manipulated all institutions for his own gain. I'm just saying to you and all the other Thaksin-haters out there - that this isn't about Thaksin - this is about the right-wing putting a bullet in the head of populism because it threatens them. If you can't see that, then this is just a waste of my time I guess.

[Thai at Heart]

Okay, well come on now, Plus. Are you saying that the 'hallowed halls' don't jump to the master of the day? The master of TODAY? Or yesterday or whenever?

If this were true, surely he would not have been found guilty of anything, when his nominee-government was in power ?

As you sooo very well know, but like to avoid...The establishment calls the shots here - and the establishment and their military enforcers made it crystal clear to all arms of the government and executive branches in Spetember 2006 that Thaksin was persona non grata. The re-election of Thaksin's friends embarrassed the military, but that's about all. Everyone else still knew which way the wind was blowing - and of course it was safer to stay upwind of the gunpowder. The collapse of democracy by use of all arms of the bureaucracy, courts, military, etc was predicatable. Populism was to be put down at all costs. There is a clear pattern of this in recent Thai history.

There can't be anyone left in Thailand or the world who doesn't understand this by now - Thailand is not a democratic nation - period.

So the 'hallowed halls' jump to the master of the day, as for example when the courts let Thaksin off his mis-declaration of assets in 2001 because he had been legitimised by getting elected, except when they don't, under Thaksin's 2008 nominee-governments and nominee-PMs, by finding him guilty of something ?

Clear as mud !

And Thaksin & TRT were surely still part of the elite establishment, despite their having used populism to get into power initially, they still followed the familiar style of nepotism, cronyism and corruption. This U-turn, to where he now believes in & defends democracy, has only come since he was deposed from power.

As Pasuk Pongpaichit & Chris Baker succinctly put it, in their article in 'Economic & Political Weekly', "Thaksin is an unlikely and unfortunate figure to become the heroic defender of democracy since he does not believe in it, he has manipulated it to make billions, and he overrode liberal democratic principles during his time in power".

A policeman with a phone company who was born in Chiangmai who had to wait to get a scholarship to go overseas to school most definitely does not fit the bill as part of the establishment. He is the purest example of new money in the eyes of those in the establishment.

[TAWP]

So the 'hallowed halls' jump to the master of the day, ... ?

You think they don't? You're smarter than that - you must be.

By the way, I agree with you that Thaksin manipulated all institutions for his own gain. I'm just saying to you and all the other Thaksin-haters out there - that this isn't about Thaksin - this is about the right-wing putting a bullet in the head of populism because it threatens them. If you can't see that, then this is just a waste of my time I guess.

I'm always so suprised when a new users, in high speed one might add, pushes out lines as previously stated be a recent banned user...

[aromsia]

As Pasuk Pongpaichit & Chris Baker succinctly put it, in their article in 'Economic & Political Weekly', "Thaksin is an unlikely and unfortunate figure to become the heroic defender of democracy since he does not believe in it, he has manipulated it to make billions, and he overrode liberal democratic principles during his time in power".

The substantive point is true, but the fate of the 'unlikely' figure and his allies may still illustrate the undermining of democracy. If you can find a serious commentator in a Western university who believes that Thailand is currently operating under democratic principles, I would be most surprised.

I agree with citizen33 comments. And Ricardo, suspend your disbelief, and don't pull little snippets of Pasuk & Bakers' comments out of context. In their seminal book about the politics of business in thailand, they came as close as they could - without breaching thai law - about how Thakin was out to break down the old corrupt bureaucracy families - but in the end he didn't because he found them useful and becuase they rebelled.

Now ask yourself this - what kind of trade union movement aligns itself with an ultra-right-wing movement like the PAD? Very, very weird...yet so 'thai'.

[aromsia]

So the 'hallowed halls' jump to the master of the day, ... ?

You think they don't? You're smarter than that - you must be.

By the way, I agree with you that Thaksin manipulated all institutions for his own gain. I'm just saying to you and all the other Thaksin-haters out there - that this isn't about Thaksin - this is about the right-wing putting a bullet in the head of populism because it threatens them. If you can't see that, then this is just a waste of my time I guess.

I'm always so suprised when a new users, in high speed one might add, pushes out lines as previously stated be a recent banned user...

Who would that be Ayn?

[TAWP]

As Pasuk Pongpaichit & Chris Baker succinctly put it, in their article in 'Economic & Political Weekly', "Thaksin is an unlikely and unfortunate figure to become the heroic defender of democracy since he does not believe in it, he has manipulated it to make billions, and he overrode liberal democratic principles during his time in power".

The substantive point is true, but the fate of the 'unlikely' figure and his allies may still illustrate the undermining of democracy. If you can find a serious commentator in a Western university who believes that Thailand is currently operating under democratic principles, I would be most surprised.

I agree with citizen33 comments. And Ricardo, suspend your disbelief, and don't pull little snippets of Pasuk & Bakers' comments out of context. In their seminal book about the politics of business in thailand, they came as close as they could - without breaching thai law - about how Thakin was out to break down the old corrupt bureaucracy families - but in the end he didn't because he found them useful and becuase they rebelled.

Now ask yourself this - what kind of trade union movement aligns itself with an ultra-right-wing movement like the PAD? Very, very weird...yet so 'thai'.

Oh,a re-run again, yay.

Tell us more!

[samgrowth]

Okay, well come on now, Plus. Are you saying that the 'hallowed halls' don't jump to the master of the day? The master of TODAY? Or yesterday or whenever?

If this were true, surely he would not have been found guilty of anything, when his nominee-government was in power ?

The decision to leave, via China & the Olympics, was made after Thaksin had discovered that he wasn't as imune or untouchable, as he had thought he was.

Question is, why did the court allow him to leave after they (the court) hand him a 2 yr jail sentence.

Maybe it is just me; but this does not sound right.

[LaoPo]

He is the purest example of new money in the eyes of those in the establishment.

That's incorrect.

His family (great-grand Father, Seng Sae Khu) was already very wealthy in the 19th and early 20th century.

Maybe in the eyes of some in the Bangkok establishment he was ''new'' money if they were descendants from earlier dynasties....but that same establishment loved to be in the Thaksin circles when he was PM...surfing the waves.....?

Apart from that, the so called establishment is for a far major part Thai-Chinese as well (like the Shinawatra family), mainly from Guangdong province in China.

When I first did business with the Shinawatra family more than 30 years ago (there were 2 textile/fashion branches in the Shinawatra conglomerate: 1 in silk and 1 in cotton; I did business with the cotton branch) the Shinawatra name had enormous influence and power in Bangkok and I was surprised how much influence* they had at that time since I had no idea in the beginning who they were and to be fair, when I stopped doing business with them I still didn't realize how influential they were.

The Shinawatra Lady owner of the factory was married to a Frenchman and they had a couple of small children at that time. The factories (both of them, silk and cotton) were based on Soi 23 or around, Sukhumvit whilst they had a very large new enormous factory outside Bangkok, way past the old airport, Don Muang.

That was long before most Thaksin bashers on this forum ever heard of the name Shinawatra...

Thaksin is/was not ''new'' money.

* I remember being ''hold'' for a few hours at the airport by Customs Police and was interrogated; showing/mentioning/proving I was doing business with Shinawatra company changed their behaviour immediately.

LaoPo

[aromsia]

Okay, well come on now, Plus. Are you saying that the 'hallowed halls' don't jump to the master of the day? The master of TODAY? Or yesterday or whenever?

If this were true, surely he would not have been found guilty of anything, when his nominee-government was in power ?

The decision to leave, via China & the Olympics, was made after Thaksin had discovered that he wasn't as imune or untouchable, as he had thought he was.

Question is, why did the court allow him to leave after they (the court) hand him a 2 yr jail sentence.

Maybe it is just me; but this does not sound right.

Why oh why?

Why didn't the "coup" leaders freeze Thaksin's assets as a matter of priority? Are you aware that took several weeks? If you are a general pooyai with absolute authority - no consitution, civil rights thrown out - wouldn't you seize his assets IMMEDIATELY? Meantime he bought an English football club. Remember, one of the reasons for the coup was that Thaksin was 'corrupt' and allegedly looting the country. Pretty good reason to take action, no? And hey - I'm no Michael Moore..

Why oh why..

Why didn't the court seize both of Thaksin's passports (Official and National)?

Why didn't they ban the Democrats on similar vote-rigging charges?

Why was Chalerm's son found not guilty of killing a policeman, even with eye witness testimony?

Why hasn't the son of a hi-so thai-chinese businessman gone to prison for deliberately running down and killing/injuring passengers at a bus stop becuase he had a dispute with a bus driver?

Why has it taken three days for the police to 'locate' the main suspect (Thai bar owner) in the New Year tragedy?

Why is Democratic Governor Apirak out on bail despite charges of corruption over the purchase of emergency vehicles when others get immediate long-sentences for minor crimes?

Why did they (courts) 'negotiate' with the PAD leaders to reduce the charges of insurrection, allow them to walk free, and then defy their own court order that they not take to the stage again?

Why are none of the PAD leaders in jail awaiting trial?

Why are none of the PAD leaders even facing a trial date?

I could go on - but is there any point?

[LaoPo]

Three (wise) monkeys:

Hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil

..the word "WISE" is dubious...

LaoPo

[aromsia]

Three (wise) monkeys:

Hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil

..the word "WISE" is dubious...

LaoPo

Yes, well one of the things I don't understand is that - even though I am NOT Buddhist, I seem to understand and try to live by some of the Lord Buddha's reasonings and offers of instructions very more so than so many Thai Hi-So's.

Strange, isn't it?

[Thai at Heart]

He is the purest example of new money in the eyes of those in the establishment.

That's incorrect.

His family (great-grand Father, Seng Sae Khu) was already very wealthy in the 19th and early 20th century.

Maybe in the eyes of some in the Bangkok establishment he was ''new'' money if they were descendants from earlier dynasties....but that same establishment loved to be in the Thaksin circles when he was PM...surfing the waves.....?

Apart from that, the so called establishment is for a far major part Thai-Chinese as well (like the Shinawatra family), mainly from Guangdong province in China.

When I first did business with the Shinawatra family more than 30 years ago (there were 2 textile/fashion branches in the Shinawatra conglomerate: 1 in silk and 1 in cotton; I did business with the cotton branch) the Shinawatra name had enormous influence and power in Bangkok and I was surprised how much influence* they had at that time since I had no idea in the beginning who they were and to be fair, when I stopped doing business with them I still didn't realize how influential they were.

The Shinawatra Lady owner of the factory was married to a Frenchman and they had a couple of small children at that time. The factories (both of them, silk and cotton) were based on Soi 23 or around, Sukhumvit whilst they had a very large new enormous factory outside Bangkok, way past the old airport, Don Muang.

That was long before most Thaksin bashers on this forum ever heard of the name Shinawatra...

Thaksin is/was not ''new'' money.

* I remember being ''hold'' for a few hours at the airport by Customs Police and was interrogated; showing/mentioning/proving I was doing business with Shinawatra company changed their behaviour immediately.

LaoPo

I understand what you mean. I have done business with other large name families also. They can make things move if they need to, but their pull in Chiangmai is astronomical I know. I am referring to Thaksin personally more than his family. You are right, the idea of him being a normal poor man come good is a long way from the truth and his family has had money for a long time.

I am referring more to the astounding wealth that he accumulated in his time. I have heard too many people talk about him being seen as nouvean riche and a bit of a geographical outsider from the standpoint that his family completely part of the Bangkok inner circle of people and rarely seeking approval from all the right people to get where he needed to go business wise. He climbed the ladder by playing the game and gaining favours from a lot of important people. The really big family business sector has it's pee's and nongs just like Thai society.

One only needs to look at hi-so magazines with people leaning on their champagne glasses and look at the names that crop up repeatedly as to who are the real insiders in the country. His problem may have been that some of these families are considered to have in some way "built the country" as opposed to simply set up a phone network.

As a question, was Thaksin's father ever recognised with any honours?

[Plus]

Why oh why?

Why didn't the "coup" leaders freeze Thaksin's assets as a matter of priority? Are you aware that took several weeks? If you are a general pooyai with absolute authority - no consitution, civil rights thrown out - wouldn't you seize his assets IMMEDIATELY? Meantime he bought an English football club. Remember, one of the reasons for the coup was that Thaksin was 'corrupt' and allegedly looting the country. Pretty good reason to take action, no? And hey - I'm no Michael Moore..

They didn't have legal grounds to freeze/confiscate his assets immediately. Suchinda tried that with Choonhavan in 1991 and it din't work.

Why didn't the court seize both of Thaksin's passports (Official and National)?

Because there were no legal grounds to do so, not until his conviction.

Why didn't they ban the Democrats on similar vote-rigging charges?

Because there were NO similial vote-rigging charges against Democrats.

Why was Chalerm's son found not guilty of killing a policeman, even with eye witness testimony?

It was a lower court in Thaksin's era, though not much has changed there since then either.

Why hasn't the son of a hi-so thai-chinese businessman gone to prison for deliberately running down and killing/injuring passengers at a bus stop becuase he had a dispute with a bus driver?

It's the job of the police and the prosecution to bring the case to the courts first.

Why is Democratic Governor Apirak out on bail despite charges of corruption over the purchase of emergency vehicles when others get immediate long-sentences for minor crimes?

<deleted>? Apirak is the last one on the list of indicted that inlcudes people like Samak and former minister Bhokin and so far none of the accused had been detained let alone got immediate long sentence.

Why are none of the PAD leaders in jail awaiting trial?

Why are none of the PAD leaders even facing a trial date?

On what charges? Blocking the road to the airport? Squatting in departure lounge area?

[/b]I could go on - but is there any point?

Not really, you don't make any sense already. Half of your points simply prove independence of the judiciary though that was obviously not your goal.

I mean on one hand you say they are military puppets, on the other hand you lament that they didn't confiscate Thaksin's assets or passports.

Your "logic" is lost on me.

[younghusband]

Why are none of the PAD leaders in jail awaiting trial?

Why are none of the PAD leaders even facing a trial date?

On what charges? Blocking the road to the airport? Squatting in departure lounge area?

I don't think the PAD leaders should necessarily be in jail but charges should certainly be brought against them for the airports seizure.

Your query on what charges is just childish.Take a reality check and consider what the PAD leadership would face in Tokyo,Beijing, London, Paris, Moscow if they pulled such a stunt in the capitals of those countries.

On the same tack do you think foreign leaders will take Kasit seriously?

[Ricardo]

As you sooo very well know, but like to avoid...

You think they don't? You're smarter than that - you must be.

And Ricardo, suspend your disbelief, and don't pull little snippets of Pasuk & Bakers' comments out of context.

Aromsia, you can continue to flame me, or spin as much as you want, but it still won't change the point I was making.

Sometimes the courts might well be influenced, as you were claiming and I would sometimes agree, by the PM of the day, but other times they clearly are not.

This might be seen as a change-for-the-better, a small step in the right direction, along the long road to a more-free & more-democratic society. I hope so.

Edited January 5, 2009 by Ricardo

[Wiresok]

Thaksin banged up in jail......military silent coup..... civil war.

Thaksin out of the country.....military silent coup......international condemnation.

Which route would you go?

[Ricardo]

A policeman with a phone company who was born in Chiangmai who had to wait to get a scholarship to go overseas to school most definitely does not fit the bill as part of the establishment. He is the purest example of new money in the eyes of those in the establishment.

If I might quote from Phongpaichit & Baker again, this time from their book "Thaksin : The Business of Politics in Thailand" :

"In fact, by the time of his birth, the Shinawatra were one of the most prominent families in Thailand's second city, Chiang Mai. They were big in both business and politics. Thaksin returned from his overseas education to be immediately appointed private secretary to a Cabinet Minister. Thaksin grew up in an environment of wealth, power and privilege."

and, from further down the same page, "Thaksin constructed his life story as a tamnan (legend) for political purposes. The early part of his autobiography (Thaksin 1999) positions Thaksin as a man of the people, starting from rural origins, and rising by a struggle patterned on the stories of first-generation Chinese migrants. The reality is actually a more interesting tale stretching over four generations."

I agree with them, it is indeed a fascinating story which I would recommend reading, somewhat adjusted in later re-telling by himself, but starting with his great-grandfather who as a Chinese migrant a hundred years earlier became a 'tax farmer' for the Siamese government. Which makes him pretty much establishment.

[younghusband]

I agree with them, it is indeed a fascinating story which I would recommend reading, somewhat adjusted in later re-telling by himself, but starting with his great-grandfather who as a Chinese migrant a hundred years earlier became a 'tax farmer' for the Siamese government. Which makes him pretty much establishment.

You underestimate the extent to which Thaksin was an outsider to the Bangkok elite.Certainly he was from an established Chiengmai family but he was never "establishment", too vulgar, coarse and ambitious.British counterpart - though it doesn't quite work- might be Michael Heseltine, the sort of man a Tory grandee sniffily remarked who "brought his own furniture"

[sriracha john]

Thaksin banged up in jail......military silent coup..... civil war.

Thaksin out of the country.....military silent coup......international condemnation.

Which route would you go?

Prisoners would have to be very desperate to gang bang Thaksin in prison... but then again, there are a number of desperate people in prisons.

Still, if he is sent to prison, it would go a long way to set a new standard (unprecedented prosecution and conviction were tremendously productive first steps) for politicians holding the premier position.

The trickle-down effect could a long way to begin to deal with the ingrained corruption across the board as well as create increased confidence and praise from the international community.

[younghusband]

Thaksin banged up in jail......military silent coup..... civil war.

Thaksin out of the country.....military silent coup......international condemnation.

Which route would you go?

Prisoners would have to be very desperate to gang bang Thaksin in prison... but then again, there are a number of desperate people in prisons.

Still, if he is sent to prison, it would go a long way to set a new standard (unprecedented prosecution and conviction were tremendously productive first steps) for politicians holding the premier position.

The trickle-down effect could a long way to begin to deal with the ingrained corruption across the board as well as create increased confidence and praise from the international community.

Classy post.

Thaksin is in exile and the charges against him were frankly trifling (the major human rights charges weren't made).For the much more serious terrorist charges against the PAD leadership, there's no reason why immediate action - trial and jail sentences-shouldn't be brought as it would in any normal country.Oh wait isn't the Foreign Minister an accomplice?

[Ricardo]

I agree with them, it is indeed a fascinating story which I would recommend reading, somewhat adjusted in later re-telling by himself, but starting with his great-grandfather who as a Chinese migrant a hundred years earlier became a 'tax farmer' for the Siamese government. Which makes him pretty much establishment.

You underestimate the extent to which Thaksin was an outsider to the Bangkok elite.Certainly he was from an established Chiengmai family but he was never "establishment", too vulgar, coarse and ambitious.British counterpart - though it doesn't quite work- might be Michael Heseltine, the sort of man a Tory grandee sniffily remarked who "brought his own furniture"

Good point. So you'd say that the establishment is, by definition, solely Bangkok ?

[sriracha john]

Thaksin banged up in jail......military silent coup..... civil war.

Thaksin out of the country.....military silent coup......international condemnation.

Which route would you go?

Prisoners would have to be very desperate to gang bang Thaksin in prison... but then again, there are a number of desperate people in prisons.

Still, if he is sent to prison, it would go a long way to set a new standard (unprecedented prosecution and conviction were tremendously productive first steps) for politicians holding the premier position.

The trickle-down effect could a long way to begin to deal with the ingrained corruption across the board as well as create increased confidence and praise from the international community.

Classy post.

Thaksin is in exile and the charges against him were frankly trifling (the major human rights charges weren't made).For the much more serious terrorist charges against the PAD leadership, there's no reason why immediate action - trial and jail sentences-shouldn't be brought as it would in any normal country.Oh wait isn't the Foreign Minister an accomplice?

I wouldn't characterize the potential for decades in prison if he's convicted in the half dozen or so cases against him as "trifling." I'm sure he doesn't think so if he's looking at a release date of 2030.

What specifically are the "terrorist" charges against PAD leaders? And why on Earth would they take precedence when some of Thaksin's charges predates any alleged offense on their part by years and years?