Motorcycle Accident In Nakhonsawon

[kevin2008]

Last nite approx 11pm involved in RTA with motorcycle...motorbike rider 100 per cent in wrong..came out of side street and collided with drivers side of my car.....wife calls police, arrived in 5 minutes. Bike rider admitted to police he didnt stop at junction and also admitted no brakes on bike and no insurance. Police not interested...told us to sort amongst ourselves and drove away. Pillion passenger then phones her boss, who happens to be a 7/11 manageress...10 minutes later she arrives, looks at damage to my car (hired) and agrees to pay for same and offers me the loan of her new pickup while my car is in for repairs...of course i didnt take the offer of her pickup as the good lady was not responsible for the accident.... car now in for repairs, quote 3500baht....coming to Thailand now 6 years and first time involved in any kind of a RTA, so didnt know what expect when police arrived, but innocently expected them to adopt procedures as police at home....everyday here is an eye opener, just lucky this time TIT............WISH YOU WELL

[john b good]

Two years ago a staff member of mine hit and killed a pedestrian, a completely un-avoidable accident, however he was still charged with wrongful death (the man who died was a homeless man and no family to negotiate with).

The accident was 100% not his fault, the homeless man ran accross a dark major highway at 1.00am in the morning.

He received a three year suspended sentence with community work.

The fact that you are a farang is neither here nor there in the court's eyes. You will be treated as any other person will be treated.

Suggest you contact Forum Sponsors "Isaan Lawyers" or your own lawyer and have some representation during the negotiation phase.

The whole deal with my staff member cost me about 100k baht including sub-standard repairs which I later had to re-repair on my car. The police were suggesting, if we could find the guys family, the payoff would have been in the vicinty of 30,000B to 50,000B, no more.

"the fact that you are a farang is neither here nor there in the court's eyes. You will be treated as any other person will be treated"

If this were not so serious (for the OP'er) the above statement would be so untrue

[ray23]

Wow defiently one I will cross of my list.

I know nothing about contract law here, but in the states I would file a bad faith action against them. You need to speak with your attorney and see if he can seek punitive damages.

If the contract is in English you need to read it very carefully what it says in writing is what they have to do. If it doesn't say in writing the will not provide bail or they won't represent you in court action, you may be in trouble with that. What the idiot at the dealership said means nothing. That will just go to he said she said. It's the writing that counts.

If it's in Thai show the policy to you attorney. The only thing Thai's seem to key on is how much the coverage costs. Not what is covered, in general they don't understand insurance.

I'm sorry for your problems hang in there. Worse comes to worse excercise your passport.

But, work through this first, you will have a right to an appeal, if you lose.

Good luck I know these are troubling and expensive times fo you and you have all my sympathy. But, you have not lost yet.

[john b good]

Wow defiently one I will cross of my list.

I know nothing about contract law here, but in the states I would file a bad faith action against them. You need to speak with your attorney and see if he can seek punitive damages.

If the contract is in English you need to read it very carefully what it says in writing is what they have to do. If it doesn't say in writing the will not provide bail or they won't represent you in court action, you may be in trouble with that. What the idiot at the dealership said means nothing. That will just go to he said she said. It's the writing that counts.

If it's in Thai show the policy to you attorney. The only thing Thai's seem to key on is how much the coverage costs. Not what is covered, in general they don't understand insurance.

I'm sorry for your problems hang in there. Worse comes to worse excercise your passport.

But, work through this first, you will have a right to an appeal, if you lose.

Good luck I know these are troubling and expensive times fo you and you have all my sympathy. But, you have not lost yet.

Good advice...

[aznyron]

well I guess after reading this I will let my Thai wife do all the driving and the truck is in her name so is the insurance

so if they screw with me I give them the finger and let the chips fall I will not be subject to a shake down by any one & that includes the police

[ray23]

I apologize I don't mean to be insensitive I'm trying to learn.

How much bail did you have to post to get out of jail?

[rana391]

Hi Ray

120,000 Baht. I was lucky I did not trust the insurance and made sure I had plenty of Baht in my briefcase.

C

[ray23]

Because you psote this I did my review policy scared the heck out of me. I'm very gratful to you fo posting the topic

First let me expain I was a licensed Agent for two years nd I did claims investigations for four years.

The first thing that hit me the Chevy Colorado I own was insured as a Optra, a small compact car. I know what happened we complained about the cost on the renewal answer change the kind of vehicle and reduce the cost for comprehensive coverage.

Do you think the agent will say it was them that made mistake or we told them it was an Opera. I think we all know the answer to that one.

250K for death max

50K for disablying some one

50 Medical

200k for bail

10,000,000 for assets. That one throws me, Umbrealla liability I have no idea, but I'm sure going to find out

The other covreage might be OK for a Thai. But, I'm not a Thai.

I used the long haired translator, who a soon as I asked a question giot defensive. Man I hate doing this.

I'm trying to learn to read Thai but how long would it take to learn to read a contract in Thai. Probably a lot more time then I got left in this world.

I'm paying for a translator next time, this defensive attitude is just not worth it. Or I should say she will out of her budget

[offset]

Already covered in Insurance section

[Saiyan]

To the rana391. Firstly I am sorry to hear of your dilemma and I really hope you get out of this with minimal damage.

I am very concerned that they are filing for “reckless driving”.

I don’t know how the law works in Thailand and I don’t know if it applies here either but I have been in discussions in another country where when the police suspected that a driver was guilty and they would automatically charge him with reckless driving. They said if the driver was found guilty on this charge that it was guaranteed that he would be found guilty on all other charges brought against him after that. It might be worth your while to see if this is the case in Thailand and if it is you would have to defend that to the limit. Perhaps even reevaluate you current lawyer.

[ray23]

I have no idea how that is defined here and thats what is imporant not what I know from past experiences. Probably a lot more comlicated then we realize. Easy for a cop to lable an act as reckless ( same everywhere) But I'm sure certin criteria woudl eb have to be met in court. If it is based simply upon ones view IE the judge, might be very agreed to define. I see wreckless acts in driving every day here. But that is my view which mean nothing.

There was a motoryclist young kid killed at the red light intersection near our home yesterday. When I have a green light at an intersection I wait for whoever is going to run the light before I proceed. Yet I see people pushing against the light all the time. I dontl wait becsaue of wrecklesss driving. But how long the yellow phase is the lights here. Roughly two seconds. The speed ljimiy in that area, 90- Klms per hour. You are not going to have enough time to physically react to to begin the braking process much less stop he vehicle in that time frame at that spped. But, you rin that and hit someone I'm sure yuo will be cio considerd at fault.

Is that arguable in court I would think so if presented correctly, there a loads of places to find the actual stopping times required for speeds. My guess is that would be judgement call on the courts behalf. It is important to prepare a case properly. I may have won my case. But I have years of experience in preparing a case in court. In all honesty my attorney was worthless in that aspect and I prepared my own two diferent times. Evidence that can be seen and evaluted is always better then testimony alone.

If I were the Op in this case I would not rely on police reports. I have writen thousand of Police Reports and I guarantee you I made mistakes. I would want an independent investigation conducted with an eye to my defence. There is to much on the line here to take a Mai Bpen Rai approach. Unless you have the investigating esperience I woudl be looking at the Private Investigation firms avialable adn gte a independent investigation completed. Look for one that does more the spy on girlfriends and has experince in personal injury cases. It can make a lot of difference in a case.

I'm sorry I don't mean to be a pain but I'm still confused as to haht asset coverage is in a Auto Policy. I did a search in the insurance thread and found what it means in a home owners policy. Fully understand that. But how does it apply to a auto policy?

My apologies but if you don't ask you don't learn

[loong]

I hope that things turn out well for you.

I'm a bit confused here, I thought that the Thai legal system was mostly borrowed from the west.

Do they actually combine criminal and civil cases here?

Causing death by reckless driving is a criminal charge and I thought that the Judge would rule guilty or not and impose a fine or imprisonment, but not compensation. Then the family would bring a civil action for compensation. But here the judge decides on punishment and compensation for the family?

Unless I misread the post, there doesn't seem to be any real description of the accident. Just that the driver was overtaking a truck and in the wrong lane, no helmet.

Did the motorcyclist have a driving licence? Was the bike taxed, was the rider underage? Was the motorcycle roadworthy? Any info that the rider was breaking the law may help your case.

Did the rider die from head injuries? If so, can you get an opinion from the doctor/pathologist that a helmet could have saved his life? Maybe any proof that the rider contributed to his own death will help you.

[harrry]

Beware all Thai lawyers.

They do not have the same ethics as their western counterparts and are always looking for ways to make money - especially when farangs are involved.

They could easily collude with the family to make you lose the case and share in the pay out.

Find someone you can 100 % trust. Not easy but it will be worth it in the end.

Good luck.

Please remove the words "Thai" and " do not have the same ethics as their western counterparts" to make this post accurate.

[BiteMe]

Hey mate, sorry to hear about your problem. Not sure if it's too late for my solution to help you or not or even if it work.

Back in my country, the victim(yourself) sue back the person(family) for causing mental breakdown due to this accident, lack of concentration in work, sleep, family...etc. This way you might end up paying lesser due to the problem u receive.

Apologize if this is a stupid solution but it does work in my country(settle out of court).

[IraqRon]

Sounds to me that you tried to be fair with these folks and they wanted nothing of it. When people refuse to play fair, so to speak, then it is time to take the gloves off. Make them an offer they can't refuse. As is often said on TV, life is cheap in Thailand. Find someone in the "biz" pay them to make the family an offer and go from there. Its your life, not an academic discussion of justice, that is in the balance here. Just an idea, take it or leave it.

[anothertorres]

long story shot (my apologies to OP as I have no advice or relevance)...

i got hit on my motobike on Soi Siam Rd. here in Banglamung at the railroad crossing. i was minding my own business, had a friend pillion on the back and was cruising about 20k/ms, thai lady is stationary up until the moment i am about to come across (perpendicular) and guns the gas and slams into me.

she immediately got out and gave me the "what you do??" as if it was my fault. it was 3pm, tons of eyeballs but no witnesses. anyway, police comes, she tells them i was swerving around and whatnot, which wouldn't explain the accident even if it were true. i explain my story and anyone with a brain could see what happened. and to shorten this story even more, i called a responsible thai friend, let him talk to the police and to the driver. next thing i know, she is speaking good english and i agreed to pay for my own damage and she pays for her SUV damage (yeah, the damage from the impact of the left side of my body to her truck's front bumper/grill!).

have a friend ready at all times. and as far as the police were concerned, i laughed when he explained to me what *her story* was. he kinda gave a laugh after i started laughing and we both agreed that there wasn't any way in the world that i could be at fault. she tried my falangness and lost.

i picked up the bike (and my poor friend who got tossed 5 feet into the air) and drove home. never fixed the bike. i figure the third time this bike hits the ground, i'll take it to the shop. until then, battle scars...

[anothertorres]

i forgot to mention, her husband (undoubtedly a farang) had *just* bought her that truck the day before. she also admitted to me that she was 'afraid to drive'!

[desertrat]

"What if some twit jumps from a condo & lands on your car passing by? Same logic?"

A guy did a jump and landed on a taxi, the driver "Fled the Scene", when in Rome......

I could never put up with the distress due to not knowing really what's going on on, the law, the bib, insurance et al. the possible outcomes, the probable outcomes.

I would definitely do a runner..perhaps we should all prepare escape kits.

[desertrat]

"Police not interested" and "was offered loan vehicle by Thai party."

Who are you? The American Ambassador ?

[kevin2008]

.....lucky this time, next time...

[Dakhar]

"The fact that you are a farang is neither here nor there in the court's eyes. You will be treated as any other person will be treated."

Soundman, I know you want to think you know alot about Thailand, and maybe you usually do, but in this case you are horribly wrong and giving out terrible advice. There are entire websites set up to document and report ridiculous rulings by Thai judges that favor Thai vs Farang in cases where the judge states "I am ruling in favor of the defendant as he is Thai and you are foreigner and this is Thailand" YES THAT IS ALMOST A DIRECT QUOTE. They see nothing wrong with this.... its a travesty of justice, I would gladly find the links for you but THEY ARE BLOCKED IN THAILAND.

I have personally observed 3 court cases in Thailand where a farang has been involved. In each of those cases the court worked to the letter of the law and there was absolutley no bias for or against the farang.

How many court cases have you personally observed that you may care to enlighten us with personal observations of bias agianst the farang?

Here is a quote from one of them.

Judges

Thai family court is presided over by 5 judges at any one time. They are conservative, dignified and generally mature in age but I did occasionally see a few younger judges. Judges all consider themselves to be eminent and all expect a great degree of respect. The judge in the middle of the bench is always the senior judge and commands the most respect. Any judge can interrupt proceedings to ask a question or pass a comment. One should only speak to judges when spoken to. All courtroom discussion takes place in the Thai language. A Westerner is expected to bring their own official interpreter who is approved by the court. I rarely noticed the judges smile or laugh – not much different to the West I suppose!

Precedence

Western courts always try very hard to follow precedence and maintain consistency between various cases. People attending Western courts have a reasonable idea what to expect in the way of a judgment or at the very least the range of possible outcomes.

The judges in Thai court are not constrained by the need to follow any kind of legal precedence that may have been set from earlier judgments in similar cases. It is often difficult to predict what kind of outcome to expect from a Thai court. Thai judges can often place a great deal of weight on emotion testimony or evidence and they can make a decision based on a positive or negative feeling they get from somebody giving evidence or presenting a case.

Thai judges can go out on a limb with a judgment and nobody is ever going to dare question it.

Disadvantage for Farang

There is NO disadvantage WHATSOEVER being a farang in a Thai court when you are arguing against a Thai person. I personally found some of the judges were fascinated with me and looked at me in a quizzical manner whilst other judges were completely disinterested in me and paid little attention. Above all, the judges applied the law as they saw it and provided I presented myself in a respectable manner, there was no issue with me being farang. There was no nationalistic pride that crept in to prevent me the farang from having a fair hearing.

My daughter holds dual Thai/Australian citizenship. The Thai court was aware that if I was successful in gaining primary custody of my daughter that I would take her out of Thailand and back to Australia. This did not present a problem for them and it did not go against me at any time in my dealings with the Thai court.

Where I believe most farangs are at a disadvantage is that they are not properly prepared by their Thai lawyers and are not well presented and don't know how to be respectful to the judges. In my case I was extensively prepared by my lawyers, instructed how to dress, instructed EXACTLY what to say (no more, no less) and presented to the judges in a very precise manner.

Choosing the right lawyer is also crucial to the farang getting a fair hearing (see next item).

Choosing the right lawyer

At the suggestion of a very knowledgeable person, I chose one of the most expensive legal firms in Bangkok to represent me. Tilleke & Gibbins is an international legal company with head office in the US. They charge in US dollars and they charge at US rates – very expensive but I had a very capable team of hot-shot lawyers represent me and I was very impressed with their competency and performance. Some of the lawyers were Thai and some were American, all of them spoke perfect English and had training both in the US and Thailand. The lawyer heading my case specifically dealt with Thai family law.

Before I enlisted the services of Tilleke & Gibbens I spoke with many different Thai lawyers, all claiming to have knowledge of Thai family law and all of them clearly not having a clue what the hel_l they were doing. But they were quite happy to take my money. I also got the impression that whilst the Thai judges are impartial to a farang taking a Thai to court over custody, the Thai lawyer representing the farang in court often does not fight very hard for the Westerner because they feel it is unpatriotic of them. Thais must all stick together. I certainly got this impression early on from one of the lawyers representing me from Tilleke & Gibbins so I had him thrown off the team. I think he lost some face from that around his office but I was there to win, not to protect some useless lawyer's pride.

I also suspect that farangs can rub their lawyers up the wrong way thru not observing Thai customs and trying to do things the farang way. This can cause the lawyers to become discouraged from doing their best to represent the farang.

No matter what country you are in, ultimately family law is a long, hard and protracted battle and if your lawyers are not determined to fight as hard as they can for the long haul then you've got the wrong lawyers.

Thread.

What court cases have I seen..... none, I just watched as an airport was taken over, watched as bodies were found floating in a klong, and a body found in a crate at the aiport.... I watched as the police passed our water bottles to thoset that had taken over the air port...

There is no justice in Thialand... I only opened my eyes to figure that one out

[jayjayjayjay]

Any updates available from the OP, hope he didn't end up in the clink again!

[loong]

Rana,

are you still there?

Are there any updates?

Are you in Jail?

Please let us know what has happened.

[quangodosh]

Normally, a biker is very aware how he would fare in an accident with a car.

NOT Thai bikers. They have a death wish and no commonsense.

Do you live in Thailand?

I honestly had a thai on a bicycle AIM at me when i was riding my motorcycle,my friends witnessed this and when i asked them " what the hel_l was that all about " they replied, he was trying to hit you so he would get money,i said, what about if i had killed him, their reply, his family would be paid out, he couldnt lose !

I had a similar experience. I was stopped at traffic lights on my Harley. A middle aged Thai woman, on a Click, deliberately broadsided me at about 5 miles an hour and fell over beside me, looking up at me accusingly. I didn't react, didn't look down and behaved as though nothing had happened. After about 15 seconds, when it became clear I wouldn't respond and thus implicate myself, she got up and drove off. Go figure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Maizefarmer]

Unfortunately I was involved in a fatal motorbike accident in Nakhonsawan.

The Motorcyclist was not wearing a helmet and struck his head on the road and died a few hours later. Initially the police laid no charges and left it to the insurance company and I to negotiate with the family. I have first class insurance, they initially offered 200k baht which was rejected out of hand. They demanded 300k from the insurance and 14,500.000 from me. The insurance company refused and the family then insisted I was charged. I have now been charged with reckless driving causing death and the family is pursuing me with great vigor through the courts for 14,500,000 baht. The fact he was not wearing a helmet and being in the wrong lane etc. does not seem to be important to either the family or the police.

My insurance company is not being overly helpful, even though my insurance includes a bail bond of 200k I ended up posting my own bail as it seemed the insurance company was not too enthusiastic about paying and delayed the process while I spent some time with some interesting characters in the cells!

One of the major concerns I have is the family is bring a lawyer up from Bangkok to assist the prosecutor at the first hearing. Neither my lawyer or myself can understand that. I have not entered a plea at this stage.

If anyone can help me understand the process it would be greatly appreciated.

C

C

I haven't read all the replies - but heres my take on this (against the background of 20years experiance living in this country).

The fact that you are an ex-pat will ultimately mean nothing - you will be treated just as a Thai gets treated in cases like this - and yes, many Thais are charged intialy with wreakless driving, get arrested and then bailed - its a mechanism the cops often use not to be difficult, but to ensure all the I's are dotted and T's crossed (any death of a person is no minor matter).

The fact that the guy wasn't wearing a helmett at the time is secondary - it's how the accident happened, and in your intial posting you haven't described the circumstances.. What ever they are, so long as its a clear cut case (i.e. he came across a stop street without stopping, was on the wrong side of the road, was riding at night with no lights working ect etc .... ) then all should ultimately be okay.

But whatever the case - you need to get a lawyer (and if you can't afford one you are entitled to a public defendent).... and while about it, let your embassy know whats happened (I know they are usualy bloody useless when it comes to doing anything practical to help their citizens - all of them , not just the Brit's - but let them know and ask them if they have any advice (besides contact details for "approved" lawyers)

Another point: you comment that the family is pursing you with vigor through the courts: just who is it who has laid the charge - is it the deceaseds family (a private prosecution), or is it the police? - who's named as the plaintiff on the the charge papers? If its private, it will drag on and on for years - and ultimately come to nothing.

What paperwork do you have? - you may care to scan it in and send to me if you havent as yet got the low down regards exactly what has been said (blank out id details if you wish).

Thank god you had a license and insurance (all sorts of prob;s if you have a fatal RTA with no license and/or insurance) - but dont hesitate to take your insurance company to task - it would be nice to know who they are, so other ex-pats who find themselves in this position know which insurance co's they know they cannot rely on (you live in Thailanbd and it is a Thai co?)

Your biggest problem in cases like this - they can sometimes drag on for years.

[Nigelmartin]

Unfortunately I was involved in a fatal motorbike accident in Nakhonsawan.

The Motorcyclist was not wearing a helmet and struck his head on the road and died a few hours later. Initially the police laid no charges and left it to the insurance company and I to negotiate with the family. I have first class insurance, they initially offered 200k baht which was rejected out of hand. They demanded 300k from the insurance and 14,500.000 from me. The insurance company refused and the family then insisted I was charged. I have now been charged with reckless driving causing death and the family is pursuing me with great vigor through the courts for 14,500,000 baht. The fact he was not wearing a helmet and being in the wrong lane etc. does not seem to be important to either the family or the police.

My insurance company is not being overly helpful, even though my insurance includes a bail bond of 200k I ended up posting my own bail as it seemed the insurance company was not too enthusiastic about paying and delayed the process while I spent some time with some interesting characters in the cells!

One of the major concerns I have is the family is bring a lawyer up from Bangkok to assist the prosecutor at the first hearing. Neither my lawyer or myself can understand that. I have not entered a plea at this stage.

If anyone can help me understand the process it would be greatly appreciated.

C

You can pm me as I went through the same situation 2 years ago so I can give you some advise on the process and what is likely to happen.

[Maizefarmer]

Unfortunately I was involved in a fatal motorbike accident in Nakhonsawan.

The Motorcyclist was not wearing a helmet and struck his head on the road and died a few hours later. Initially the police laid no charges and left it to the insurance company and I to negotiate with the family. I have first class insurance, they initially offered 200k baht which was rejected out of hand. They demanded 300k from the insurance and 14,500.000 from me. The insurance company refused and the family then insisted I was charged. I have now been charged with reckless driving causing death and the family is pursuing me with great vigor through the courts for 14,500,000 baht. The fact he was not wearing a helmet and being in the wrong lane etc. does not seem to be important to either the family or the police.

My insurance company is not being overly helpful, even though my insurance includes a bail bond of 200k I ended up posting my own bail as it seemed the insurance company was not too enthusiastic about paying and delayed the process while I spent some time with some interesting characters in the cells!

One of the major concerns I have is the family is bring a lawyer up from Bangkok to assist the prosecutor at the first hearing. Neither my lawyer or myself can understand that. I have not entered a plea at this stage.

If anyone can help me understand the process it would be greatly appreciated.

C

You can pm me as I went through the same situation 2 years ago so I can give you some advise on the process and what is likely to happen.

What ultimately happened? - charged & prosecuted? went to court? guilty not guilty? penatly (if any)? ... and the insurance co - did they pay out anything to anyone and if so , how much?

[jimbeam1]

and we wonder why so many flee the scene of an accident.

I don't like to say this, but that is exactly what i was thinking. Scarrie

[johnefallis]

Keep us posted. Myself and others are angered by shakedowns like this and are tired of it. So tired in fact that if necessary, it may be time for a protest and demonstrations of our own. I have a few other choice things to say, but I will refrain.

[Pierrot]

Keep us posted. Myself and others are angered by shakedowns like this and are tired of it. So tired in fact that if necessary, it may be time for a protest and demonstrations of our own. I have a few other choice things to say, but I will refrain.

No need. Actually what does usually happen ?

First don't flee the scene, the police doesn't like it and you will be in big trouble. Call your insurance and let them handle the matter.

Then it's the family of the "victim" that goes after you, not the police. Don't go after the wrong target. Let them go, they see it as the chance of their life to get big. It will take a couple of years to understand they are wrong. I know it's annoying but it will make great stories to tell your mates around a beer.

Now, always remember, you're not Tony Soprano, violence is not the solution and you're not ready to face the consequences if things turn really nasty. The police is not against you, actually most of the time they don't give a sh_t. You have poor, uneducated people who see the incident at the chance of their life to hit big. Trust the system and more often than not, they will be proved wrong