Electrical Problems With Car

[Sheryl]

Sunny Nissan about 10 years old (manual transmission)

I have been having some type of problem with the electrical system fo the pastyear and a half during which time I have twice replaced the battery (probably unnecessarily), had inumerable jump starts/recharges of the battery, had some type of repair to the starter , replaced the aletrnator ("dai Charge") about 3 months ago, replaced the alternator belt (which did need it) about 2 weeks ago and 3 days ago, had what was diagnosed a "short" in the "dai charge" repaired.

Last night the car dies on me while driving - first problems with the sound on the CD then the lights dimmed and then the engine died -- on a deserted pitch dark back country road. Luckily for me the first person to stop was a kindly man who turned out to live near my village and not an axe murder/mad rapist, but certainly not a good situation to be in. We got the car going with a push start and I drove it home with no lights, it is now off at the same mechanics who failed to solve the problem in the past with said good samaritan running interference. From past experience they will again try to tell me I need a new battaery (current one only 2 months old),or do some very minor repair and it'll conk out again soon.

I notice that when the engine is running, there are no bublles in the battery water which I think there should be in it is charging.?

To my very limited understanding of things automotive it appears to me that:

- problem can't be the battery itself since charguing and even replacing the battery solves the problem only for a very short time. Also, the engine would not die after starting if it was a battery problem.

- for which last reason, also can't be the starter

- and since it also fails to start, unlikely to be due to the spark plugs (which I think have not been replaced in a long time and many km)

Which leads me to conclude that, despite having replaced it only a few months back, it must be something in the alternator.

Am I overlooking somehing here? And is there anything that might be shorting out or otherwise damaging the alternator? It is still under warrantee but unfortunealty I had it replaced in Bangkok and I don't live there so getting it back to the palce that replaced it would be hard.

I can't help but think there is something else at the root of all this that hasn't been identified...

Appreciate help !!

[taxexile]

whilst no expert on these things , i would start by having a competent mechanic , preferably a nissan agent , check the earthing of the battery and the alternator , the tension of the belts , and the condition of all the electrical connectors and cables between the starter , alternator and battery. a loose , friable or partially rusted contact could give intermittent problems.

p.s. check that the interior light and boot ( trunk) light are switching off when doors and boot lid are closed , something as simple as a light remaining on could be running your battery down overnight.

have a look here too.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/battery_runs_down.htm

http://www.aa1car.com/library/charging_checks.htm

Edited January 16, 2009 by taxexile

[Gary A]

If the battery is good and it goes dead while driving, it is quite obviously an alternator charging problem. After that problem is repaired, they need to check if there is any drain on the battery with the ignition turned off and everything else turned off.

[nonthaburial]

The obvious first check is to note whether the red charging light stays on with the engine running. If it does then you have a charging problem, but not necessarily the alternator

[kartman]

You need to find a auto electrician not a mechanic go to a local spares shop/taxi rank they should point you in the right direction.

[kennkate]

Hi I had the SAME problem with a Nissan in the UK It was 1400 cc 1996 Vintage

all was well with the car for about 4 years No Problems at all

Untill one day A Young Man decided to take the Radio. He smashed the pasengers side window and ripped out the Radio.

Got it replaced by Insurance. and Collected the car. The next morning battery Flat Put it on charge and was Ok for A few days.

Took it back to the Auto Electrician who fitted the radio Said you need a new Allternator

Ok if its gone will have to have a new one New Allternator fitted NO Change.

Battery still went flat after a few days

This time I was told it was the Battery OK New Battery No Change.

At that point I took it to The Main Nissan Dealership Who Said after two days That No problem was detectable, Maybee your Alarm is faulty. We can fit you A new Alarm. I said sorry but just disconect it and lets see. Again No change.

It was mostly OK if it was used every day, But it could let you down unexpectedly. But never whilst Driving it.

Just when you came to start it. next morning The Battery would be Flat.

Never did get to the bottom of the problem Sorry

I hope you get your problem resolved and have better Luck than me (PM me and let me Know) If they FIX it

Gave up in the End and Traded it in at the Nissan Garage.

Got A new Micra allways had good service from the Nissan cars before and since then so I stick with them

[mijan24]

If the battery is good and it goes dead while driving, it is quite obviously an alternator charging problem. After that problem is repaired, they need to check if there is any drain on the battery with the ignition turned off and everything else turned off.

Start the car disconnect the battery, this will tell you if the alternator is producing enough to keep the car running or not.

If engine dies ALTERNATOR or connections if engine continues running multi meter and check "A" output. Reconnect battery and check "A" input to "B".

[ballbreaker]

Simple test with voltmeter will tell if charging system is functioning properly.

Cars also have a voltage regulator which sometimes is located in the alternator but can also be located external. I do not which type you have but since you have replaced battery and alternator in past you should ask where your voltage regulator is located. Might be worth checking if external.

[Sheryl]

The obvious first check is to note whether the red charging light stays on with the engine running. If it does then you have a charging problem, but not necessarily the alternator

Where is there a red charging light?? I don't think I have one....

[Sheryl]

Simple test with voltmeter will tell if charging system is functioning properly.

Cars also have a voltage regulator which sometimes is located in the alternator but can also be located external. I do not which type you have but since you have replaced battery and alternator in past you should ask where your voltage regulator is located. Might be worth checking if external.

How to do the voltometer test?

regulator does not seem to be external. But UI have a voltometer and if you can explain where to put the probles, will test

[taxexile]

voltmeter test

this will show you how to do it.

[tangoll]

About 6 years ago, I had a 1988 BMW 535i manual transmission car, and the engine would sometimes just die even when the car was running in 3rd gear, but since the car was moving, I was able to quickly shift in 2nd gear, and the the moving motion would be just enough to cause the engine to fire up again. Sometimes, the engine would be very hard to start, and after numerous checks, etc., I had replaced the starter motor, battery, probably alternator. Then on one of the BMW forums, someone suggested I check the starter relay and fuel relay, and I went and replace those, costing at most US$20 - $30 for both relays. From that day on, the problems disappeared. Since these are not too expensive items, if the Nissan has starter/fuel relays, you might consider replacing them. If the engine cuts out while travelling, it might not be getting any fuel.

Hope this helps, at least as much as your medical expertise helps in the Health threads.

[dotcom]

btw. Batteries come with warranties.

No way should you have to pay to replace a 2 month old battery.

Nissan garage is a very good suggestion.

What is weird is that the voltage was so low that the engine died but yet after a push you made it home with all the accessories turned off.

Charging problem for sure.

Essentially all a battery is used for is starting the car. Once the engine is running the alternator takes over. It should be making ABOVE 13 volts DC (which the above link does not say).

My car makes 13.8 volts & the reason for this is that it has to be greater than the 12 volt of the battery. The excess is what recharges the battery.

An alternator only makes whatever current is being drawn. (amperage).

So Sheryl you should have a red light on the dash board showing you that the alternator is not making ABOVE 13 volts. Some cars have a gauge. A good garage can troubleshoot this problem pretty fast.

Edited January 16, 2009 by dotcom

[Owain]

The obvious first check is to note whether the red charging light stays on with the engine running. If it does then you have a charging problem, but not necessarily the alternator

Where is there a red charging light?? I don't think I have one....

I think he is on about the red icon of a battery on your dash which goes off when you start the car.

[stingray]

If the battery is good and it goes dead while driving, it is quite obviously an alternator charging problem. After that problem is repaired, they need to check if there is any drain on the battery with the ignition turned off and everything else turned off.

Start the car disconnect the battery, this will tell you if the alternator is producing enough to keep the car running or not.

If engine dies ALTERNATOR or connections if engine continues running multi meter and check "A" output. Reconnect battery and check "A" input to "B".

This is exactly the way to destroy electronic items or even light bulbs.

[stingray]

The obvious first check is to note whether the red charging light stays on with the engine running. If it does then you have a charging problem, but not necessarily the alternator

Where is there a red charging light?? I don't think I have one....

Ok, lets go from the begining. I try with my poor english. First of all make sure your battery terminals are clean and thighted up. Check the negative cable on the earth connection to the body of the car. Make sure the engine is connected with a thick wiring (cable) to the chassis or body of the car AND the battery. Make sure all terminals are free of rust and sulfate and all screws or nuts are tighted up where the wirings are connected. Turn your ignition on. Battery- and oil light should show now. If no battery light shows on, than you got a problem with the light bolb, cirquit or alternator (small inner diode, there are 3 of them). Remeber you NEED a battery light, to activate the charge procedure of the alternator. If your battery light not work, your alternator will fail. Another thing Alternator can charge, but maybe not enought. Using a AMPERE Meter (not only a Volt Meter) can show you if your battery get charged correctly and how much ampere going in your battery. First you start your car, than loosen the negative battery pool (connector), clip the ampere meter serial between the pool and the groundig (negative earth) cable. Clip a Volt meter parallel on the Battery (plus and minus) Car should be in idle speed running. Turn on headlights, air con, wipers, everything what uses power during car running in idlespeed. Now you can see if the amperemeter go below zero in the negative direction or not. If so your car doesn't charge enought. Could be one of the big diode in the alternator, or a broken phase in the stator, etc. Not worth to play, just change it. If the charging is to high, let's say 18 volt, instead of max 14 Volt, your electronic regulator is not working and battery get destroyed. But this fault is unusual. Todays car all have electronic regulators in the alternator (no external since more than 15 years ago).

Make sure that not some smart ass macanic changed your battery fluid in the past. Locals use to do this sometimes to try to "fix" the battery, even the fault was somwhere else, not on the battery. If this was done, the battery is destroyed, because the mixture of the destillated water and acid isn't correct anymore.

Make sure your battery not get drained out over night by some electric components. Make sure all power equippement are off and the doors and the trunk of the car are closed correctly. Clip a 12 Volt checklight serial between the battery terminal (plus or minus, doesn't matter) Light should NOT glimming. If it's glimming, just remove each fuse, one by one, and look when your checklight will be off. So you find out the faulty cirquit and component.

[jcon]

Good advice stingray, but I have to say this isn't a Range Rover we're talking about with all kinds of electrical 'leakages,' this is a 10 yr old Sunny.

Sheryl, you mentioned you 'replaced' the alternator. Did you 'replace' it, or was it 'rebuilit?' If some Somchai rebuilt your alternator it could have been a rubbish job.

My vote is alternator problem. Mechanic should be able to simply check and see if it's charging properly. The battery has effectively nothing to do with the running of the electrics of the car when the car has been started and in motion. So the battery failure is a symptom of something else (as in a faulty alternator - not charging the battery) not the cause. Any competent mechanic should know this, and if your mechanic keeps recommending you to change batteries, he is a moron, and should not be trusted. Before your car stalls, do you get funky lights on your dash coming up, etc.?

That said, like stingray said, make sure everything is grounded - but it's just my guess that they 'rebuilt' your alternator, and it is failing again. If you turn on your car, blow the air on full, turn on all lights, crank the stereo, etc. etc. and hit the brakes and the car stalls... alternator is not up to the task. When the car is running, what sucks the juice the most on simple cars like that are the radiator fans, the air con, braking system.... by taking a look at the fuses (which ones are the higher numbered ones, you'll know which components are the energy-suckers).

My diagnosis without seeing the car: Alternator.

[Lickey]

Very good Stingray, the only thing i can think to add is give the engine a few revs,let it die down then test with all things on, in fact if you have a keen ear and a quiet place, on idle, put the headlights on and if the alternator is ok, the engine note will chage slightly, the more things you turn on the more the note will change if the alternator is ok.

OP, how you described that the electrics just died when driving night time and that it started with a push suggests that the the alternator/wiring/connections are at fault, Good batteries will regenerate themselves after a rest.

The red dash light is also important, if this doesnt come on and the bulb is ok, there is a problem in the brush box diode in the alternator.

Find a good auto electrian, not some village Bodgeit & Scarper outfit,

[mijan24]

If the battery is good and it goes dead while driving, it is quite obviously an alternator charging problem. After that problem is repaired, they need to check if there is any drain on the battery with the ignition turned off and everything else turned off.

Start the car disconnect the battery, this will tell you if the alternator is producing enough to keep the car running or not.

If engine dies ALTERNATOR or connections if engine continues running multi meter and check "A" output. Reconnect battery and check "A" input to "B".

This is exactly the way to destroy electronic items or even light bulbs. Sorry to disagree Stingray but it is a 10 year old Sunny not a fancy all singinging Electronic buzz Box.

[Sheryl]

voltmeter test

this will show you how to do it.

Extremely helpful, thanks!!!

[Sheryl]

Thanks to all for the helpful advice.

Battery is OK.

ALternator itself. also OK

But apparently the alternator belt and pulley had a problem. I had just recently replaced the belt and it seemed to be turning around OK to me but the helpful neighbor who spent half a day overseeing the "mai geng" mechanics reported back to me that the belt wasn't fitting snuggly in the pulley or something to that effect. They replaced belt and pulley and so far, knock on wood, it seems to be OK. Time will tell though and based on past experience I don't put much credence in the diagnoses that come from local mechanics. Idiots one and all. (understatement).

Neighbor also said that the bolts holding whole engine in place were worn and needed to be replaced and that bouncing from this may have contributed to the problem. Or something like that (he talks a mile a minute and my Thai doesn't extend to things mecahnical). So I had these replaced.

Stay tuned....(it'll be a while as I'm going to Cambodia for 2 weeks)

[BSJ]

Taxexile's first post gave the most likely culprits!

Your local mechanic may not be the best source of remedy either!

A loose belt will cause problems for sure.

Good you got a new engine mount. It won't damage the alternator directly but it can lead to other things being damaged.

With batteries a 7 plate is bottom of the pile, cheap

A 9 plate is better but will cost more.

An eleven plate is best but are usually the dearest.

For your convenience get an 11plate AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) battery next time. Cos no lassie should be stuck on the road in the middle of the night!

[Naam]

Start the car disconnect the battery, this will

burn an alternator in no time if it's 3-phase!

[Pomthai]

Running an engine then disconnecting the battery is very bad practice for several reasons.

1. The field coils in the alternator are can be damaged. (these induce the initial current to start it generating electricity)

2. The voltage regulator can be damaged. (needs a load read "battery" in order to do its job)

3. Rectifier can be damaged. (alternators make AC voltage the diodes within the rectifier convert from AC to DC)

The above three items may or may not do damage but certainly have potential - finally if there is any life left in the alternator and it has be charging or even more so if overcharging; the battery is likely to be gassing to some degree, the sudden load change of reconnecting or disconnecting is highly likely to cause a spark which can make your battery explode. Think possible fire plus acid in face. Be very careful.

[Lancashirelad]

Most of my thoughts have been covered by other posters. e.g. using an auto electrician in preference to a mechanic. It's a specialist subject just as in the medical field Sheryl. You wouldn't expect a GP to perform heart bypass surgery.

Stingray's post, considering English is not his first language & that this is a technical matter, is excellent & factual.

Most people in most countries unneccesarily replace the battery at 1st sign of any electrical problem.

From the symptoms you describe it is either a faulty alternator, a bad earth connection (possibly intermittent), or an ECU (Electronic Control Unit) fault.

I'd get the earth connections thoroughly checked first as there is no appreciable cost.

An auto electrician can also easily check if the alternator is producing the correct (or any) output. (about 14 volts IIRC)

I also wonder why the worn belt was not replaced when the new alternator was fitted as it should have been noticed it was worn at that time. (On reading your update, unless ofcourse it was a pulley problem that caused the belt to wear). Had you heard it screeching when you revved up?

The plugs certainly aren't your problem, as proved by the fact that it will run. However, if they've been in for years, certainly wouldn't do any harm to replace them whilst you're at it. A relatively inexpensive item.

Red warning light: when you switch on your ignition, you should have at least 2 warning lights illuminated. 1. A red one with a battery icon on it. 2. A yellow/amber one with a an oil can icon. and possibly 3. Red again, hand brake warning light (which also comes on if your brake fluid is low). Newer cars have many more: air bag, ABS, etc.

Th reason they come on when you switch the ignition on is 2 fold, 1. as a bulb test so you know the warning lights actually work. 2. So you know the ignition is on.

Once the engine is started the oil pressure & battery lights should go out. If they don't, or they come on whilst driving, this is indicative of a problem. Your driving instructor should have told you this.

Not really relevant to your problem, but in support of other posters:

I've never come accross a vehicle fitted with an alternator that also has a separate regulator.

Back in the days of generators, they needed a separate control box.

With a generator you could indeed disconnect the battery with engine running without causing harm. Indeed i've known of good batteries being removed & the car then being driven into the scrap yard ;-)

Hope you enjoyed Cambodia.

Jonathan. (ex garage proprietor and driving instructor)

[mijan24]

Start the car disconnect the battery, this will

burn an alternator in no time if it's 3-phase!

Naam good point if it was power source for a house or garage.

[stingray]

Start the car disconnect the battery, this will

burn an alternator in no time if it's 3-phase!

Naam good point if it was power source for a house or garage.

Alternators are all in 3 phase in "AC". But with the diodes it's change to "DC"

[Mighty Mouse]

I also had a Ford that regularly died whilst driving. My mechanic diagnosed the problem as being a faulty fuel pump. The pump was replaced, same problem occurred.

To cut a long investigative story short, it turned out to be a dirty connector terminal for the fuel pump lead. A clean up with a file and the problem was fixed.

Others in this thread have advised cleaning the terminals in the electrical system. I advise closely cleaning the electrical lead to the fuel pump.

If it is the fuel pump, it may only require the filter being cleaned.

[Naam]

Start the car disconnect the battery, this will

burn an alternator in no time if it's 3-phase!

Naam good point if it was power source for a house or garage.

Alternators are all in 3 phase in "AC". But with the diodes it's change to "DC"

3-phase car alternators are quite common since the 1970s because of their higher efficiency at low revs. the only car i know which might be still equipped with a single phase alternator is the indian "Ambassador". but this info is already several years old.

[arthurwait]

If the battery is good and it goes dead while driving, it is quite obviously an alternator charging problem. After that problem is repaired, they need to check if there is any drain on the battery with the ignition turned off and everything else turned off.

Start the car disconnect the battery, this will tell you if the alternator is producing enough to keep the car running or not.

If engine dies ALTERNATOR or connections if engine continues running multi meter and check "A" output. Reconnect battery and check "A" input to "B".

Don't do this , one way to kill the car and give yourself a nasty shock.