Herbicides Or Pesticides

[Lickey]

As from now herbicides are banned on the farm, why? because the thai labour overdo it as usual, to them its a weedkiller, not a plant killler, its also a ground killer,

eg, 7 months ago, 200 papaya plants were put in, today they are tennis ball or banana size, they should be twice or more that size, more were planted 2 months later, 5 months on, they hardly reach my knee, the salad beds were sprayed mid october, Makua/red tomato falang potato planted mid november, 2 out of 20 potatos have come up [sorry SAP, i did try} The tomato plants i put at 6in high are still 6in high and some have died, in comparsion, mid-october i planted 120 makua [green tomato] plants, the ground was un-treated, only bat shit as a fertiliser, 15 kilos every 5 days no problem with irrigation of course.if they need weeding, i have a hoe.

And the Tamarind trees, i was looking at the trees and asked mrs why this one hadnt been picked, it was full with ripe pods, she said red ants, nobody want!! i saw the big nests, cut a 25ft bamboo and thrashed the nests out of the tree, next day ants were re-building again so they got another thrashing, today the ants were gone and the fruit picked, the Kanoon tree fruits were also covered in red ants, 4 football sized nests in 1 tree, of course the ants are after any kind of sugar they can get,

Insecticides, the banana plantation seems to hve aphids now, i had hoped natural predeators would clean them up, but thet are late in doing so, my garlic oinion ginger mix has run out, so insecticide is the quick option.

I did ask for an organic farming forum to run alongside the farming forum but it has been ignored,

Cheers, Lickey..

[GungaDin]

Hi Lickey,

you've quoted some good examples, good luck in the next 6 months.

How much do you pay for bat shit?

I bought my banana pups yesdy, like you said, 10 baht a pup & 3ft high.

Will try o protect them with neem oil and feed them worm castings if ever David gets back to me.

Sorry to read of your losses.

[Smithson]

As from now herbicides are banned on the farm, why? because the thai labour overdo it as usual,

From my experience Thai's need strict clear rules, asking them to make a reasonable judgment doesn't really work.

I did ask for an organic farming forum to run alongside the farming forum but it has been ignored,

An organic farming forum/sub forum would be great. There is currently a plants and pets forum, which is 90% about pets, while the farming forum seems to be more focused on commercial farming. Maybe an organic gardening/farming forum could be set up?

I have a feeling that if there was both an organic and inorganic farming forum there would be more interest in the former. Information coming from the 'West' isn't always suited to Thailand. There is a lot happening here, but it's all in Thai, so it would be good to have somewhere to share info.

[Lickey]

Hi Gunga,

Todays price of bat shit is 300bht for 30kilo bag, I use 1/2 cup on each makua plant weekly,

I did read [but cant find it now] to dip the pups in 30c water for a few mins before planting, it has something to do with killing possible bugs..

Smithson, I do look at that forum sometimes, but like you say, its mainly pets, it seems we dont have a mod now so i put a post on the forum

support, no answers after 2 weeks or so, I see Soundman posts here sometimes, perhaps he could help?

Cheers, Lickey..

[drtreelove]

A lot of herbacide use can be avoided with proper spacing of plants and the use of mulch.

A month ago I mulched around my young fruit trees with a 6-8 inch layer of rice straw, including all the open soil space between the trees. I water the entire area, not just under the trees. There are a few weeds and grasses poking up through the mulch, but not much. Besides weed control, the mulch will allow water conservation during the impending hot season and allow extended root growth to beyond the driplines of the young plants. With mulch, the soil stays cool and moist and the earthworms thrive. When the rainy season starts, I'll pull any remaining mulch for the compost pile and seed with green manure.

When I moved into an existing farm with mature longan and mango orchards, there were no weeds in the areas of the orchards where the tree foliar canopies had grown together and completely shaded the soil. The only areas that there were weeds growing were the exposed soil areas where a few individual trees had died, and areas along the perimeter where morning and afternoon sun could get on the soil beneath the trees.

When I worked at a biodynamic/french intensive garden project in California many years ago, I learned that one of the best methods of weed control in a vegetable garden is to create rich enough soil fertility conditions to support mixed plantings spaced very close together. The variable heights of the plants and close spacing creates shaded soil that results in good weed control. Poor soil fertility does not support this kind of intensive planting. Open row planting in some cases is an invitation to weeds.

A book on organic gardening that I read many years ago made a statement that I never forgot: There are three ways to deal with weeds; one is to poison them, one is to pull them, the other is to change your attitude toward them. Some "weeds" can be beautiful and useful plants.

As for an organic gardening forum, why not just start it here as a thread. Has there been a thread on this forum in the past? I'm new. Don

[sunsamourai]

+1 for a gardening + organic forum as opposed to commercial scale farming / tree farming

@ all, I always follow your threads with great interest, even though I am not a profuse contributor...

@ Drtreelove : what do you call green manure for rainy season ?

++ ^^

[GungaDin]

Hi Gunga,

Todays price of bat shit is 300bht for 30kilo bag, I use 1/2 cup on each makua plant weekly,

I did read [but cant find it now] to dip the pups in 30c water for a few mins before planting, it has something to do with killing possible bugs..

Cheers, Lickey..

Thanks.

Same price as worm castings !

30C eh? I'll give it a go.

cheers.

[Smithson]

As for an organic gardening forum, why not just start it here as a thread. Has there been a thread on this forum in the past? \

Don, organic farming is probably more difficult than chemical, so I think there's too many topics to cover in one thread. There have been many threads and they usually have plenty of interest.

I think there is a lot happening in Thailand, but with the info written in Thai it's not as accessible to us farang.

[drtreelove]

"what do you call green manure for rainy season ?"

Green manure is the growing of a cover crop that will later be plowed in or at least cut and left on the surface, for the purpose of adding organic matter to the soil.

The best choice of a cover/green manure crop is usually a legume, a bean, that supplies a good quantity of it's own nitrogen (so it doesn't take it from the soil) through the unique capability that legumes have, of nitrogen fixation from atmospheric nitrogen through root nodules that contain specialized nitrogen fixing bacteria. (Innoculation of the bacteria the first time brings the best results). The cover crop can be an non-commercial crop that is never intended for commercial harvest, only for on-site incorporation into the soil of green organic matter. Black beans, jack beans and other legumes are grown for this purpose. The plants are cut or plowed in before they go to seed, to get the most green material back into the soil.

In a more sophisticated crop rotation, with proper soil, climate, water availability and availability to market the crop, something like peanuts/groundnuts can be grown as your green manure crop. The peanuts are used or sold and the crop residue is left in the field and plowed into the soil, as the green manure source. So your green manure season adds to your profitability. This is not always practical, but is possible with good management.

Non-legumes can be used as green manure, but you must take into account the large use of available nitrogen that it will require to decompose and take away from availablility for the next crop rotation. Non-legumes usually require additional fertilization, animal or chemical. As soil organic matter content builds up and provides good soil fertility and nitrogen availablility, this is less of a problem and all crop residues can be used as green manure.

It is now recognized that in orchards, contrary to long standing common practices, the green manure should cut and left lay as a mulch and not be tilled in. The disturbance of the soil surface destroys a large percentage of the fine absorbing roots from the trees and limits uptake of water and nutrients. The mulch encourages absorbing root growth and protects the soil from drying out and protects the beneficial soil organisms and natural processes.

[Smithson]

^ Good info again, the bit about the orchards is interesting. I've noticed Thais will clear all the grass/weeds from around fruit trees digging up a couple of cm of topsoil in the process. Using the legumes as mulch would be much better way of controlling weeds and retaining moisture.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Smithson

[IsaanAussie]

^ Good info again, the bit about the orchards is interesting. I've noticed Thais will clear all the grass/weeds from around fruit trees digging up a couple of cm of topsoil in the process. Using the legumes as mulch would be much better way of controlling weeds and retaining moisture.

Smithson,

Try mungbeans, after the crop is harvested do what you will with the stover.

Isaanaussie

[Lickey]

Drtreelove,

Your thoughts on my problem please, we do use rice straw in the makua as a mulch and the cut banana leaves are left on the ground around the plant to help preserve moisture.

At the end of next month when the weather hots up, out come the ants and there friends, mealy bugs and aphids, and they really thrive in mulch, other than exspensive chemicals,a garlic oinion mix and thashing them out ouf the trees,what else could i try?

Thanks, Lickey..

[drtreelove]

Drtreelove,

Your thoughts on my problem please, we do use rice straw in the makua as a mulch and the cut banana leaves are left on the ground around the plant to help preserve moisture.

At the end of next month when the weather hots up, out come the ants and there friends, mealy bugs and aphids, and they really thrive in mulch, other than exspensive chemicals,a garlic oinion mix and thashing them out ouf the trees,what else could i try?

Thanks, Lickey..

I know what you mean, I have experienced the same problem with the mulch providing habitat for ants and other critters. I exercise some tolerance, because I know that the insect activity can be beneficial in breaking down the mulch and incorporating it into soil. Each issue that you mention can be delt with as a separate challenge when it becomes intolerable.

The big biting red ants that nest in the trees are horrible to have to deal with, but I don't think they are related much to the mulch. But I found Thai neighbors that love to harvest the nests to eat the larvae. I just ask and they go to work climbing the trees with a rollled up newspaper on fire to burn the ants out of their way as they climb and knock out the nest onto the ground. Other than that, the long mai-pai pole (mine has a saw blade attached) is effective to knock out the nest. Spray cannot get into the glued together leaf nest until it's on the ground and pulled apart. A trunk drench with permethrin (Chaindrite Stedfast 4) will limit the ants access to the tree and frustrate them, and if repeated weekly will offer some control.

The aphids and mealy bugs, I don't believe are directly related to the mulch, but the small black ants that farm the aphids and other ants that nest in the ground (including the nasty little red ankle-biters) will surely thrive with the mulch as cover. Control the aphids and mealy bugs as a separate issue, with whatever pest control measure that you find effective and affordable. Permethrin is a sure knock down, but also kills beneficials. Neem is a botanical that doesn't have much or the negative side except the cost. The ants cannot farm pests that aren't there.

To directly get to the ants, pull away the mulch and follow their trail to the hole in the ground. Spot spray/drench the hole with Chaindrite crack and crevice aerosol, or better yet avoid aerosols and mix your own, or use the chalk of death as featured in another thread on termites. This isn't the organic gardening thread is it? You see I'm not a purist. don

[Lickey]

Thanks Don for an informative reply, our 40 rai garden is infested with ants, i know they help in some ways and they started farming long before man did, I dont want to kill them off completly, just have a bit of control over them,

I have used the fire method on the lower nests, dead rolled up banana leaves work well, im thinking about getting Mr Poo [labour] to climb or ladder up the trees and spray with diesel, then use a burning bamboo to ignite the nest, fire is pretty final!!

As for the ground ants, I will be in a situation where in 6 weeks time, i cant stand still or sit down for 3 mins without ants crawling up my legs, to find individual nests on 40 rai would be very hard work, It could be done by placing sweet fruit in varios places on the farm, and following the trail, but again, its an atractant, [no pun intended] what i need is a deterant and you have mentioned a few,

Like you, im not a totally organic farmer, needs most sometimes, but no more herbicide, thats definite!! insecticides and fertilizers [if needed] will be at a minimum, look after your ground naturally, and it will look after you,

Cheers, Lickey..