Divorce And Land Valuations

[James53]

I asked this question on the Real Estate site. I got one answer about SET valuers which I am looking into but I thought that I might give it a wider airing here to get peoples opinions.

I am currenty divorcing my Thai wife in the UK. We have a business running a resort and we are arguing about what it is worth. At the land registry the value is what we paid for it 4 years ago but a year ago somebody made an unsolicited offer to buy it for far more than we paid for it. We have significantly improved the land, put in a road, generator, pumped water, bungalows and restaurant.

Now in the court here my wife is saying it is worth the lower land registry figure.

The court wants a valuation but how do you get a valuation in Thailand. I have phoned the real estate agents but they are only interested in Pattaya, Samui and Phuket.

I don't know who to approach to get this valuation. Well thanks to one answer on the Real Estate page I have some leads on a SET valuar.

Now further to that the soon to be ex's barrister comes up with what seems to be a surreal offer that if I pay the ex a fraction of the money that the land is worth she will just walk away and hand the business to me, well I put her share in another Thai person's name.

I can't think what the catch is. Mayber she has mortgaged it so how do I find this out? I was in the land registry in December ensuring that she couldn't get duplicate deeds and there was nothing there about a mortgage.

What is worring is that I learnt today that 3 bungalows caught fire. Now that smacks of intimidation so what is going on.

OK I now gather that since I have the deeds she can't raise a mortgage but they coud have still gone to a money lender. I just wonder how other people have got round the false valuation of land when they came to get divorced or did they just write it off.

[sassienie]

I asked this question on the Real Estate site. I got one answer about SET valuers which I am looking into but I thought that I might give it a wider airing here to get peoples opinions.

I am currenty divorcing my Thai wife in the UK. We have a business running a resort and we are arguing about what it is worth. At the land registry the value is what we paid for it 4 years ago but a year ago somebody made an unsolicited offer to buy it for far more than we paid for it. We have significantly improved the land, put in a road, generator, pumped water, bungalows and restaurant.

Now in the court here my wife is saying it is worth the lower land registry figure.

The court wants a valuation but how do you get a valuation in Thailand. I have phoned the real estate agents but they are only interested in Pattaya, Samui and Phuket.

I don't know who to approach to get this valuation. Well thanks to one answer on the Real Estate page I have some leads on a SET valuar.

Now further to that the soon to be ex's barrister comes up with what seems to be a surreal offer that if I pay the ex a fraction of the money that the land is worth she will just walk away and hand the business to me, well I put her share in another Thai person's name.

I can't think what the catch is. Mayber she has mortgaged it so how do I find this out? I was in the land registry in December ensuring that she couldn't get duplicate deeds and there was nothing there about a mortgage.

What is worring is that I learnt today that 3 bungalows caught fire. Now that smacks of intimidation so what is going on.

OK I now gather that since I have the deeds she can't raise a mortgage but they coud have still gone to a money lender. I just wonder how other people have got round the false valuation of land when they came to get divorced or did they just write it off.

I take it that you mean the resort is in Thailand and not the UK.

Firstly I would guess that the resort is in your wife’s name or that of another Thai.

Do you have power of attorney or a lease in your name?

If the real estate is solely in Thai names than anyone one the names (Owners) can take out a bank loan or some other type of loan using the real estate as collateral, without reference to you unless it is legally endorsed in the land registry office that you have power of attorney or a lease. Even that is no 100% guarantee here in Thailand that the official owner would not be able to obtain a loan on the real estate.

If a bank or loan company has given a loan pertaining to the real estate than the company will insist that their interests on the property be added onto the original land paper.

The only sure way for you to check this is to visit the actual land office where the real estate is registered and ask to see what information they have on the property. They may give you access to this data, if not, you will require a lawyer to make the enquiry for you.

The court will only officially recognise a valuation from the land office and not what someone is willing to pay for it. This may involve making an appointment for land department officers to re-measure the land and decide how much the buildings are worth. Than they create an official valuation report. This will cost you but not expensive. Only problem is that it may take months for the officers to visit the property, so an under counter payment may be in order so as to get them to move their asses.

If the real estate is partly in your name as a company than the other directors, singly or together can still borrow money from a bank using their share of the real estate as guarantee.

Please give some more details and I will answer.

[Kan Win]

I was in the land registry in December ensuring that she couldn't get duplicate deeds and there was nothing there about a mortgage.

I take it that you mean the resort is in Thailand and not the UK.

Firstly I would guess that the resort is in your wife’s name or that of another Thai.

The only sure way for you to check this is to visit the actual land office where the real estate is registered and ask to see what information they have on the property. They may give you access to this data, if not, you will require a lawyer to make the enquiry for you.

Please give some more details and I will answer.

Hi "sassienie" I think he did, see above.

I have 2 qus..

First, Where is your resort in Thailand? I am in Kanchanaburi by the way.

Second, is the Land/Resort, in a Registered Company Name? or that of Thai?

Yours truly,

Kan Win

[James53]

I was in the land registry in December ensuring that she couldn't get duplicate deeds and there was nothing there about a mortgage.

I take it that you mean the resort is in Thailand and not the UK.

Firstly I would guess that the resort is in your wife's name or that of another Thai.

The only sure way for you to check this is to visit the actual land office where the real estate is registered and ask to see what information they have on the property. They may give you access to this data, if not, you will require a lawyer to make the enquiry for you.

Please give some more details and I will answer.

Hi "sassienie" I think he did, see above.

I have 2 qus..

First, Where is your resort in Thailand? I am in Kanchanaburi by the way.

Second, is the Land/Resort, in a Registered Company Name? or that of Thai?

Yours truly,

Kan Win

ok, I don't want to be too specific as I don't know who lurkes here. Let's just say, south, not the gulf side and one letter different to a place near Ko Samet. People always mix the places up.

The land is owned by a Thai company, I have 49%, wife 40, brother in law 5 or 6 then a handful with 1%.

There is a registered company name. All pukka and above board. Except the <deleted> brother in law says he lost one of the seals in the fire.

The big problem is if the court in the UK believe the lower figure then I get screwed over the UK assets whereas if I can get a realistic market valuation then they will see that the ex's effective 51% is a very good deal.

[sassienie]

I will explain what is involved here, but it’s rather a complicated process.

Firstly the UK legal system has no jurisdiction over any property owned by you & your wife in Thailand and cannot make a ruling as to whom gets what share. This must be done through the Thai courts decided by a Thai judge.

In order to prove that you have investments in Thailand to the UK court, you must produce receipts of how much money you have ploughed into the Thai real estate. Either builder’s receipts or bank statements showing amounts of money transferred over to Thailand can do this. The Thai foreign affairs office must certify these, than translated into English by a bona fide lawyer in Thailand, than certified again by the British embassy in Bangkok. But the UK court may not take into consideration your investments in Thailand until this matter as been dealt with by the Thai civil court in order to establish to the UK court how much of the Thai real estate your wife has gained from you. Again in both Thai and UK courts you will need to produce receipts, show tax has been paid and all has been operated legally. To get this matter finalised in the Thai court may take up to 2 years. In Thai law husband and wife are normally awarded 50/50.

I do not know if there are children involved here, but please keep in mind that the UK divorce court system in 99.99% of cases mostly always rules in favour of the woman. So prior to you attending court in the UK, try and obtain any evidence against your wife in your favour, such as, adultery, visited Internet dating sites, in anyway that you can dig up the dirt on her will be to your benefit.

It may be worth considering doing some sort of a deal with your wife, giving her all the property in Thailand in exchange for leaving you alone in the UK. This is something only you can decide if there is a lot to lose in the UK.

Edited January 22, 2009 by sassienie

[James53]

I will explain what is involved here, but it's rather a complicated process.

Firstly the UK legal system has no jurisdiction over any property owned by you & your wife in Thailand and cannot make a ruling as to whom gets what share. This must be done through the Thai courts decided by a Thai judge.

In order to prove that you have investments in Thailand to the UK court, you must produce receipts of how much money you have ploughed into the Thai real estate. Either builder's receipts or bank statements showing amounts of money transferred over to Thailand can do this. The Thai foreign affairs office must certify these, than translated into English by a bona fide lawyer in Thailand, than certified again by the British embassy in Bangkok. But the UK court may not take into consideration your investments in Thailand until this matter as been dealt with by the Thai civil court in order to establish to the UK court how much of the Thai real estate your wife has gained from you. Again in both Thai and UK courts you will need to produce receipts, show tax has been paid and all has been operated legally. To get this matter finalised in the Thai court may take up to 2 years. In Thai law husband and wife are normally awarded 50/50.

I do not know if there are children involved here, but please keep in mind that the UK divorce court system in 99.99% of cases mostly always rules in favour of the woman. So prior to you attending court in the UK, try and obtain any evidence against your wife in your favour, such as, adultery, visited Internet dating sites, in anyway that you can dig up the dirt on her will be to your benefit.

It may be worth considering doing some sort of a deal with your wife, giving her all the property in Thailand in exchange for leaving you alone in the UK. This is something only you can decide if there is a lot to lose in the UK.

[James53]

Tell me about the UK courts favouring the woman in divorce. My wife walked out and left me with 2 kids AND I am still fighting to get 50%. She was working cash in hand and claiming unemployment benefit and getting her rent paid, she turns up in court, lies to the judge and I am made to look the guilty party.

The UK courts are totally biased against men, even when they care for the children.

I don't think a deal is possible giving her the Thai business, there is vitually no equity in the home in the UK as it is mortgaged to buy the Thai business. However quite the contrary she seems to want to sell her share to me for a fraction of its worth as she is desperate for cash. All the court options means she wont get any cash for years.

I will have of course give her shares to a Thai, but I have soembody in mind.

[sassienie]

Tell me about the UK courts favouring the woman in divorce. My wife walked out and left me with 2 kids AND I am still fighting to get 50%. She was working cash in hand and claiming unemployment benefit and getting her rent paid, she turns up in court, lies to the judge and I am made to look the guilty party.

The UK courts are totally biased against men, even when they care for the children.

I don't think a deal is possible giving her the Thai business, there is vitually no equity in the home in the UK as it is mortgaged to buy the Thai business. However quite the contrary she seems to want to sell her share to me for a fraction of its worth as she is desperate for cash. All the court options means she wont get any cash for years.

I will have of course give her shares to a Thai, but I have soembody in mind.

Under Thai law, if there is a dispute between husband and wife over property, than this cannot be done without the permission of a judge, plus the same applies if you put the property into another name. Still requires the consent of the judge.

The same laws apply to your wife.

If you buy any share of the real estate from your wife, she can still take you to court for 50% of it`s total value.

Also in some cases there are laws that say a Farang cannot own the land but only the buildings.

Plus if you have a company and you only own 49% share, than you litually own only 49%.

This is how she is trying to trick you. Beware.

Edited January 23, 2009 by sassienie

[sassienie]

The only way for you to proceed with your Thailand real estate is to hire a lawyer and take the matter to the Thai civil court.

Court fees are: 2.5% of the real estate value as advised by the land office.

If this does not go to court, than the property becomes stagnant. Your wife and you could endure severe penalties if either of you damage, sell, or change the names on the deeds without first going through the civil court.

If the property becomes rented, than any profits made must be shared between all the company directors.

[sassienie]

One option is to dissolve your company, that will get rid of the directors that I guess are mostly there as names only.

If you have the funds, get a Thai lawyer and take it to the civil court. If not, let the real estate stagnate.

If your wife has left you and the children in the UK and you gain custody, than you will be permitted to stay in the house.

Same applies to your wife, it`s whoever obtains custody of the children gets to remain in the home.

[sassienie]

Back in England I was a legal executive. Also studied Thai law for 20 years. My daughter is a police woman at Immigration in Chiang Mai.

I have been through the same as you back in 1981. Only my wife was English, not Thai. Now married to a Thai lady for 21 years.

I sincerely feel heartache for you and know how you are suffering.

The reality is that you must now fight to keep what you have.

Don`t be afraid to pull a few strings and do some tricks, but try not to do anything rash and stay cool, otherwise you could blow things for yourself.

I still loved my first wife and was shocked to see how stone cold she was especially with my 2 children involved. it hurt at the time but a few years later came to realise that she really done me a favour.

After the divorce I was a better person with more experience, built myself up again after a few years, happy and thrown the past away into the dustbin of hard times.

It will be the same for you, trust me and wishing you good luck and a successful future.

Edited January 23, 2009 by sassienie

[James53]

Tell me about the UK courts favouring the woman in divorce. My wife walked out and left me with 2 kids AND I am still fighting to get 50%. She was working cash in hand and claiming unemployment benefit and getting her rent paid, she turns up in court, lies to the judge and I am made to look the guilty party.

The UK courts are totally biased against men, even when they care for the children.

I don't think a deal is possible giving her the Thai business, there is vitually no equity in the home in the UK as it is mortgaged to buy the Thai business. However quite the contrary she seems to want to sell her share to me for a fraction of its worth as she is desperate for cash. All the court options means she wont get any cash for years.

I will have of course give her shares to a Thai, but I have soembody in mind.

Under Thai law, if there is a dispute between husband and wife over property, than this cannot be done without the permission of a judge, plus the same applies if you put the property into another name. Still requires the consent of the judge.

The same laws apply to your wife.

If you buy any share of the real estate from your wife, she can still take you to court for 50% of it`s total value.

Also in some cases there are laws that say a Farang cannot own the land but only the buildings.

Plus if you have a company and you only own 49% share, than you litually own only 49%.

This is how she is trying to trick you. Beware.

Can I clarify something, if she sells me her shares (and the monority ones) and they are put in the names of Thais sympathetic to me can she still go to court over 50%.

[SIMON4G]

very interesting ..mostly because i was planning and investement in thaiand ...in small resort ...i will follow this discusion of course ..and by the way if you decide to sell let me know and tell me how big it is because i cannot buy hudge thing.......money limit......and also i want to know how you get out of this......

by the way me i am from canada.....

[James53]

very interesting ..mostly because i was planning and investement in thaiand ...in small resort ...i will follow this discusion of course ..and by the way if you decide to sell let me know and tell me how big it is because i cannot buy hudge thing.......money limit......and also i want to know how you get out of this......

by the way me i am from canada.....

When you say small resort you mean by the sea. The place I have is 13 rai registered plus a slighter larger unregistered plot/ To be honest I can't remember how big. I was told by a real estate agent that expect to pay a minimum million baht a rai for land next to a beach. ie the worst bit of land next to the worst beach is a million rai. In Phuket who know what you would pay, a million dollars a rai?

A year ago we received an unsolicited offer of 30 million baht so I guess the million baht a rai is not far off. That was of course before the world economy wen belly up.