Financial Crisis

[midas]

Midas you are going on about the plunge protection team again it doesnt exist - it is a figment of your imagination. Governments do intervene in markets occasionally and nearly always get taken advantage of.

If the PPT doesn't exist...........what do you call this kind of " activity " that happened yesterday ?

Rumor Versus Fact: An Insider's Report On A Manipulated Market

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/rumor-ver...ipulated-market

Edited February 26, 2010 by midas

[midas]

This idea of civil unrest is such a romantic notion.

The fact is that the great unwashed sit in front of their TVs, eating their TV dinners and watching E Entertainment - a Channel devoted to the lives of the rich and famous (or simply the rich who they make famous). The groan as the fabulous person climbs into their G5 because it is so 1990s - what with the newer G550 having 7 windows instead of the G5's 6 (the new G650, yet to make its E Entertainment debut, has 8.)

well then here is a " romantic " video..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXr0A9MB83w...player_embedded

Abrak i still cant understand why you dismiss this as being possible for the USA ? Once you take stuff away from people (social programs), it will be like taking away food from a dog while its eating.

[churchill]

Greek Prime Minister calls for 'brutal changes' to fix economy, urges lawmakers to ‘think only about the survival of our country’

Greek PM says worst fears confirmed on economy

Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:13am ESTATHENS, Feb 26 (Reuters) - Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou told parliament on Friday, after a visit by EU economic inspectors, that the worst fears about Greece's economy had been confirmed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE61P0VF20100226

[Abrak]

well then here is a " romantic " video..........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXr0A9MB83w...player_embedded

Abrak i still cant understand why you dismiss this as being possible for the USA ? Once you take stuff away from people (social programs), it will be like taking away food from a dog while its eating.

1. I think you need to distinguish between those countries that can print their way out of their problems and those that cant. People do not react well to deflation. I do believe that the strength of austerity measures necessary for Greece to cure its own problems will not be accepted. Either they will get bailed out or go down the default/exit from the euro/inflation route. When some are whingeing about the cuts they need to make now, they clearly have absolutely no idea what is really necessary to resolve matters. They will probably continuing rioting after that.

2. But you look at the US and not only do they have so many options (including screwing everybody else) they dont actually care anyways. It really is hard to argue that a country that has been so badly screwed by the bankers etc. is likely to get out of their armchairs for anything that might follow now. When bail out bankers one year and allow them bonuses the next, when you lie about WMD to invade a country and re-elect the guy, you really have to ask what possible thing they could do to cause riots. Now I think it is possible - if say they announced that everybody's eldest child was to be shot - I do think there would be problems. But they have already been screwed and raped, so it is a bit silly to see how far you have to take things to get some reaction.

Anyways Greece and the USA are not the same, it is a pity Euroland didnt recognize the differences before they let them in.

Essentially in the US they took away food from the dog while it was eating, threw it in the bin, ate a tin of caviar in front of the dog and the dog reacted by falling asleep.

[midas]

you look at the US and not only do they have so many options (including screwing everybody else) they dont actually care anyways. It really is hard to argue that a country that has been so badly screwed by the bankers etc. is likely to get out of their armchairs for anything that might follow now. When bail out bankers one year and allow them bonuses the next, when you lie about WMD to invade a country and re-elect the guy, you really have to ask what possible thing they could do to cause riots. Now I think it is possible - if say they announced that everybody's eldest child was to be shot - I do think there would be problems. But they have already been screwed and raped, so it is a bit silly to see how far you have to take things to get some reaction.

Essentially in the US they took away food from the dog while it was eating, threw it in the bin, ate a tin of caviar in front of the dog and the dog reacted by falling asleep.

I completely disagree with you !

Who says they are all sitting in armchairs ?

I think you are overlooking the fact USA comprises more than " the great unwashed who sit in front of their TVs, eating their TV dinners and

watching E Entertainment "

This was from just last week ......and forget about education for these youths when bankrupt States are even closing down schools.

They will be angry and unemployed possibly for a decade if not longer.

BLACK YOUTH MOBS – A GROWING DANGER

Young black youths are presenting a greater danger to law-abiding Americans and property. There are increasing counts of violent mob riots across the country.

Yesterday in Philadelphia , a mob of 150 made up mostly of black youths ransacked a shopping mall causing $700 damage to one store. After they were chased out of the store, they took to the streets throwing snowballs at passersby and vehicles. They knocked down pedestrians and even violently attacked each other. 15 were arrested and charged with disorderly conduct and rioting. Last May, another mob of black youths (who else?) rioted on South Street in Philadelphia looting a gas station, carjacking an unfortunate driver and injuring several pedestrians

Recently, in Cleveland Heights, Ohio, a black mob of 100 youths also created a violent situation in a shopping center that required police to be called in from 3 different townships. Six black teenage girls were arrested. Seems they mobbed the local Wal-Mart and started riding bicycles throughout the store. When police were called, they started fighting and three girls and a police officer were injured. How would you like for your family to be caught up in that?

[Chaimai]

midas - call Steven Spielberg. You seem intent on making a drama or spoof-movie out of this.

I am not sure that it is reasonable to link this to the Financial Crisis thread - I imagine that most of these situations are due to socio-economic issues (admittedly not helped by the GFC).

Obviously, as reported on TV the Uk is going down the pan, along with Sterling, but as I look out the window I don't see a gathering of seething masses

[Abrak]

Essentially in the US they took away food from the dog while it was eating, threw it in the bin, ate a tin of caviar in front of the dog and the dog reacted by falling asleep. Revision. Well dog (black apparently) decided to go piss in the swimming pool.

BLACK YOUTH MOBS – A GROWING DANGER

Young black youths are presenting a greater danger to law-abiding Americans and property. There are increasing counts of violent mob riots across the country.

Yesterday in Philadelphia , a mob of 150 made up mostly of black youths ransacked a shopping mall causing $700 damage to one store. After they were chased out of the store, they took to the streets throwing snowballs at passersby and vehicles. They knocked down pedestrians and even violently attacked each other. 15 were arrested and charged with disorderly conduct and rioting. Last May, another mob of black youths (who else?) rioted on South Street in Philadelphia looting a gas station, carjacking an unfortunate driver and injuring several pedestrians

Recently, in Cleveland Heights, Ohio, a black mob of 100 youths also created a violent situation in a shopping center that required police to be called in from 3 different townships. Six black teenage girls were arrested. Seems they mobbed the local Wal-Mart and started riding bicycles throughout the store. When police were called, they started fighting and three girls and a police officer were injured. How would you like for your family to be caught up in that?

To be honest it doesnt sound anything more than an average night out for Britney Spears.

[flying]

Just a bunch of noise so far but..........

Citibank a week or so ago made a statement about checking accounts needing 7 days notice to withdraw cash.

When Citibank moved to unlimited FDIC coverage in 2009, we had to reclassify many checking accounts to allow for immediate withdrawals in order to ensure all customers qualified for the additional coverage. When we moved back to standard FDIC coverage with most major banks in 2010, Citibank decided to reclassify those accounts back to make them eligible again for promotional incentives. To do so, Federal Reserve Reg D requires these accounts, called NOW accounts, to reserve the right to require a 7-day notice of withdrawal. We recently communicated this technical requirement to our customers. However, we have never exercised this right and have no plans to do so in the future,” reads a statement released by the bank.

There is more noise here now about these NOW accounts. Many seem to think this is a anti bank run protection being put in place now. With other banks following shortly.

As I said just noise so far but will be interesting to watch.

Some credit unions here already have instigated a 1000 USD limit unless you call ahead.

[LaoPo]

Greek Prime Minister calls for 'brutal changes' to fix economy, urges lawmakers to ‘think only about the survival of our country’

Greek PM says worst fears confirmed on economy

Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:13am ESTATHENS, Feb 26 (Reuters) - Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou told parliament on Friday, after a visit by EU economic inspectors, that the worst fears about Greece's economy had been confirmed.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE61P0VF20100226

Did he have any other option than to confirm Greece is on Intensive Care already a long time ? When was the last time he was in (financial) hospital ?

I fear with great fears that the EU will, finally, draw the wallet and help Greece......in the end, and not let them go down the drain or throw those gangsters out of the EU.

THAT would be a dangerous precedent for all the other patients on IC....Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Iceland, Italy....

What a World

LaoPo

Edited February 27, 2010 by LaoPo

[lannarebirth]

Ben's probably lying for the Bond market's consumption, but what if he's not?

With uncharacteristic bluntness, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke warned Congress on Wednesday that the United States could soon face a debt crisis like the one in Greece, and declared that the central bank will not help legislators by printing money to pay for the ballooning federal debt

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/f...ing-on-us-debt/

[churchill]

France, Germany to help Greece raise money

Germany and France have agreed to help Greece sell bonds in return for stronger efforts by Athens to slash its budget deficit, Greek newspaper Ta Nea reported on Saturday, citing unnamed sources.

The Greek finance ministry declined to comment on the report, which came after growing signs that diplomatic efforts were underway to resolve Greece's debt crisis.

Germany's state-owned development bank KfW will buy Greek government bonds or provide guarantees for other banks to buy them, said Ta Nea, a major newspaper, quoting unnamed banking sources and officials close to Germany's finance minister.

France's state-owned bank Caisse des Depots will also be involved in the aid, Ta Nea reported, adding that French President Nicolas Sarkozy had discussed this by telephone with Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou.

In return, the Greek government has agreed to introduce additional austerity measures worth some 4 billion euros ($5.4 billion) to reach its target of cutting the budget deficit by 4 percentage points this year, the newspaper said.

Sources in Germany's ruling coalition told Reuters earlier this month that the coalition was considering having KfW buy Greek bonds as a way to resolve Greece's debt crisis, which has caused turmoil in European debt markets and undermined confidence in the euro currency.

European Union inspectors visited Athens this week to discuss the crisis. EU Economic Affairs Commissioner Olli Rehn plans to visit Athens next week, and Ta Nea said Rehn would announce the aid plan for Greece during his visit.

Papandreou said Friday that he would visit Berlin for talks with German Chancellor Angela Merkel on March 5, while Deutsche Bank Chief Executive Josef Ackermann met Papandreou in Athens Friday.

Media reports in Germany and France have suggested governments in the 16-country euro zone might offer aid worth 20 to 25 billion euros to Greece, but officials have declined to comment on the size of any aid plan.

Greece, which is preparing to tap the euro debt market with its second bond issue this year, has said its funding needs are met until mid-March, and it will need to refinance about 20 billion euros of debt maturing in April and May. The debt market has been worrying that Greece may not be able to borrow at affordable rates.

http://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/france-ge..._medium=twitter

[LaoPo]

Ben's probably lying for the Bond market's consumption, but what if he's not?

With uncharacteristic bluntness, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke warned Congress on Wednesday that the United States could soon face a debt crisis like the one in Greece, and declared that the central bank will not help legislators by printing money to pay for the ballooning federal debt

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/f...ing-on-us-debt/

as if the printing machines aren't red hot yet

LaoPo

[lannarebirth]

Ben's probably lying for the Bond market's consumption, but what if he's not?

With uncharacteristic bluntness, Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke warned Congress on Wednesday that the United States could soon face a debt crisis like the one in Greece, and declared that the central bank will not help legislators by printing money to pay for the ballooning federal debt

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/f...ing-on-us-debt/

as if the printing machines aren't red hot yet

LaoPo

The problem is Lao Po, you just can't print enough. Ben may be the worlds foremost authority on the Great Depression but even he has no idea of the value of every derivative product out there. You can't just can't fill that hole no matter how much you print. Prechter's right about that at least, IMO.

[AlexLah]

So what do the people that denied the importance and impact of derivative contracts think now?

Clearly AIG (Almost) blew up because of these.

Many Billions of Dollars payed out to counter parties.

Don't you think there is something wrong with this system?

[midas]

midas - call Steven Spielberg. You seem intent on making a drama or spoof-movie out of this.

I am not sure that it is reasonable to link this to the Financial Crisis thread - I imagine that most of these situations are due to socio-economic issues (admittedly not helped by the GFC).

Obviously, as reported on TV the Uk is going down the pan, along with Sterling, but as I look out the window I don't see a gathering of seething masses

" The Economist " magazine does

http://www.economist.com/daily/chartgaller...ory_id=15098974

[lannarebirth]

So what do the people that denied the importance and impact of derivative contracts think now?

Clearly AIG (Almost) blew up because of these.

Many Billions of Dollars payed out to counter parties.

Don't you think there is something wrong with this system?

Well Alex, there are derivatives and then there are DERIVATIVES. No one knows how many there are out there but I'm going to say anyway, that the vast majority have solvent counteparties, trade transparently and are marked to market instantaneously. I know the ones I trade in are. It's the CDS's that are the issue. Purposely obfuscated market, big spreads, probably alot of poorly capitalized counterparties, but what's worse is, there is no cap to the market. Of course there's something wrong with the system. I don't think anyone is defending it.

[Abrak]

Greece, which is preparing to tap the euro debt market with its second bond issue this year, has said its funding needs are met until mid-March, and it will need to refinance about 20 billion euros of debt maturing in April and May. The debt market has been worrying that Greece may not be able to borrow at affordable rates.

Greece is lying once again and this how people take advantage of them.

They need Euro 20bn in March and pretending otherwise (and assuming the people that are placing bets against the system are stupid) just makes their and more importantly, everybody elses, position worse.

[Abrak]

So what do the people that denied the importance and impact of derivative contracts think now?

Clearly AIG (Almost) blew up because of these.

Actually I think that AIG was 'bailed out' because noone knew the extent of the damage that derivatives could create but had worked out it could end very badly. It is for that reason I think that it was the right move to bail them out.

I also believe that Marx effectively predicted or warned both of the creative value that would result in their existence and ultimately the destructive disaster that would be their end result even before they were born.

[12DrinkMore]

Well blow me down with a feather, what is happening?

On one side of the Atlantic we have

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business...in-1912448.html

A mountain of bad debts forced Lloyds Banking Group to announce annual losses of £6.3bn yesterday – but the part-nationalised bank refused to reveal details of its net lending or bonuses for bankers

Another HUGE loss and STILL these bastards are expecting bonuses. Have they not yet got the picture?

And more government debt to be monetised, screwing everybody, one way or another.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/fe...easing-eurozone

Mervyn King, the governor of the Bank of England, warned today that the weakness of the eurozone is jeopardising the UK's recovery, and the emergency £200bn quantitative easing programme might have to be re-started if the economy deteriorates in the coming months.

Yeah, good one Merv, after the 30% devaluation of sterling the prat is blaming the Eurozone for the UK troubles?!!!

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=199

The UK’s deficit on trade in goods and services was £3.3 billion in December, compared with a deficit of £2.9 billion in November (unchanged from the originally published figure).

The surplus on trade in services was £4.0 billion in December, compared with £3.9 billion in November.

The deficit on trade in goods was £7.3 billion in December, compared with a deficit of £6.8 billion in November (unchanged from the originally published figure). Exports rose by £0.9 billion and imports rose by £1.4 billion.

The deficit with EU countries was £3.7 billion in December, unchanged compared with November. Exports rose by £0.4 billion and imports rose by £0.5 billion. There was a rise in imports of cars.

The deficit with non-EU countries widened to £3.6 billion in December, compared with a deficit of £3.1 billion in November. Exports rose by £0.5 billion and imports rose by £0.9 billion. There was a rise in both exports and imports of oil. There was also a rise in imports of aircraft.

Excluding oil and erratic items, the volume of exports rose by

1.0 per cent and the volume of imports rose by 4.5 per cent, compared with November.

Export prices rose by 0.1 per cent and import prices rose by

0.3 per cent, compared with November.

Things just ain't getter better for the UK, even with the massive devaluation. And I was lead to believe that the savage drop in UK derived income and assets was to help the homeland. Sadly deluded there, I have to admit.

BUT what do I read here

The US economy expanded by 5.9 per cent in the fourth quarter of 2009, the fastest increase in six years, it emerged yesterday as the Commerce Department revised up its earlier estimate of 5.7 per cent.

The Q4 figure compares with 2.2 per cent growth in GDP in the third quarter of 2009, lifting the world's biggest economy from recession after four quarters of contraction. However, separate reports showed that existing home sales fell sharply in January and consumer confidence slipped this month.

Worlds fail me, 5.9% expansion in the last quarter 2009? Now that is something I could buy into....

And to deviate slightly from the financial crisis we have another crisis looming up for the UK

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columni...a-blackout.html

"Five years ago, Britain became a net importer of fossil fuels. The depletion of North Sea oil and gas means that we are depending increasingly on foreign supplies. In 2000, we imported just one per cent of our natural gas supplies; now it's nearly half, and the National Grid expects it will reach 70 per cent by 2018. On Tuesday, Oil & Gas UK, which represents the industry, issued a warning that without more investment in the North Sea, its contribution towards our energy needs will continue to dwindle.

At the same time, generating capacity is set to drop off sharply, as ageing coal, gas and nuclear power stations are taken out of service. As so often, Europe is playing its part, in the shape of the EU Large Combustion Plant directive, which says that they should be cleaned up at vast cost or closed. The Government admits that by 2020 the lost capacity will be vast – 22.5 gigawatts, or almost a third of our total requirements. The graphs show that if no action is taken, our energy supply will go downhill faster than Amy Williams at Vancouver."

All one can hope for is that global warming will finally appear and the UK population will no longer need to fend off the snow and ice forming inside the bathrooms. It certainly is warm in Thailand today....

Edited February 27, 2010 by 12DrinkMore

[12DrinkMore]

If you haven't seen this, then now is a good time

[midas]

Could this re-ignite consumer spending ? I mean if they are not paying for the mortgage

and they are not paying any rent, what are people doing with all that extra disposable income ?

Living Rent Free: Homeowners become Squatters

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2010/02/...culated+Risk%29

[churchill]

Could this re-ignite consumer spending ? I mean if they are not paying for the mortgage

and they are not paying any rent, what are people doing with all that extra disposable income ?

Living Rent Free: Homeowners become Squatters

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2010/02/...culated+Risk%29

That is an interesting thought - I could see the same happening in the UK if interest rates rise / what could anyone do ? throw thousands onto the streets - Big hit for the banks though /

[MJP]

Banks factoring in a doubling of mortgages rates

Could this re-ignite consumer spending ? I mean if they are not paying for the mortgage

and they are not paying any rent, what are people doing with all that extra disposable income ?

Living Rent Free: Homeowners become Squatters

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2010/02/...culated+Risk%29

That is an interesting thought - I could see the same happening in the UK if interest rates rise / what could anyone do ? throw thousands onto the streets - Big hit for the banks though /

[midas]

Banks factoring in a doubling of mortgages rates

Could this re-ignite consumer spending ? I mean if they are not paying for the mortgage

and they are not paying any rent, what are people doing with all that extra disposable income ?

Living Rent Free: Homeowners become Squatters

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2010/02/...culated+Risk%29

That is an interesting thought - I could see the same happening in the UK if interest rates rise / what could anyone do ? throw thousands onto the streets - Big hit for the banks though /

But couldn't the banks in theory ( with the help of a few " sympathetic " valuers ) extend and pretend for a long time

and not take the hit ?

[MJP]

You cannot buck the market . . . Margaret Thatcher.

Banks factoring in a doubling of mortgages rates

Could this re-ignite consumer spending ? I mean if they are not paying for the mortgage

and they are not paying any rent, what are people doing with all that extra disposable income ?

Living Rent Free: Homeowners become Squatters

http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2010/02/...culated+Risk%29

That is an interesting thought - I could see the same happening in the UK if interest rates rise / what could anyone do ? throw thousands onto the streets - Big hit for the banks though /

But couldn't the banks in theory ( with the help of a few " sympathetic " valuers ) extend and pretend for a long time

and not take the hit ?

[midas]

You cannot buck the market . . . Margaret Thatcher.

MJP Aha ! Of course but being the Devils Advocate for a moment …….surely doesn’t being unable to “ buck “ the

market depend on the time frame during which there is a need to actually test the market ?

i.e. If the banks put these “ assets “ into a kind of “ hibernation “ and carry them on their books for a few years

based on valuations assuming " favourable " future conditions, they can hope the eagerly anticipated inflation

will catch up eventually and therefore demand will return at prices closer to the previous levels ?

Of coursre only the banks in collusion with a desperate Government could get away with something like this.

[MJP]

You cannot buck the market . . . Margaret Thatcher.

MJP Aha ! Of course but being the Devils Advocate for a moment …….surely doesn't being unable to " buck " the

market depend on the time frame during which there is a need to actually test the market ?

i.e. If the banks put these " assets " into a kind of " hibernation " and carry them on their books for a few years

based on valuations assuming " favourable " future conditions, they can hope the eagerly anticipated inflation

will catch up eventually and therefore demand will return at prices closer to the previous levels ?

Of coursre only the banks in collusion with a desperate Government could get away with something like this.

[beginner]

That is a very pretty graph but what does it mean?

What is the denomination? How was it calculated and by whom? What is the source?

Does it have any validity?

[MJP]

Got it off Mike Hampton, trying to get the source etc at the mo.

Will be interesting. He's saying the UK is COMPLETELY BUST.

Looks like Brown to win or a hung GE. The light at the end of the tunnel will be disconnected soon, as they can't pay the French electric bill.

That is a very pretty graph but what does it mean?

What is the denomination? How was it calculated and by whom? What is the source?

Does it have any validity?

[MJP]

Right got it

UK's F£$K3D!

That is a very pretty graph but what does it mean?

What is the denomination? How was it calculated and by whom? What is the source?

Does it have any validity?