Is There A Lot Of Racism Toward Children Of Mixed Ethnicities?

[dave9988]

The conversation Guesthouse overheard doesn't suprise me in the slightest. Top class Thai women don't need to marry farang - and, with the odd exception, don't!

This goes both ways though. If someone who used to be an employee, is now the one being served by the current employees, then that will breed resentment too. Essentially, this is a society which is more or less caste, and some Thais will be upset about people getting ahead of them in line.

[F1fanatic]

It depends on whether your wife is genuinely from the top echelons of Thai society. Thais are v sensitive to their position in society and would say nothing to somebody they considered to be 'above' them. SHE would 'lose face', not them.

She's not genuinely from the top echelons of Thai Society!. We spent 10 years together in Yorkshire , England. A place not known for its airs and graces and Kow Tow rituals. I once bumped into an old friend (A true English Gentleman about 70 years of age). I was with the wife , a couple of Kids and the wifes thai neice , mid teens. We went to a nice restaraunt and two 'higher class' middle aged Thai couples at the next table got the wrong end of the stick, thinking my old friend was with the neice so to speak. The Guys were fine but the ladies raised there voices so they could be heard with there derogatory remarks; the neice went red and sheepish and sank under the Table almost then my wife silenced them with a snarl and maybe a bit of sarcasm. I don't know exactly what she said but when I next looked around they had left.

The Wife Lost no Face ! I drank another Beer ;-)

Assuming this happened in Thailand, then the reason they left was 'cos they did not want to associate with people like your wife! Your niece personified normal Thai behaviour, and proves my point.

Anyway, I think we can summarise by saying that most Thai's won't look down on mixed race children, but high class Thai's will.

Edited January 29, 2009 by F1fanatic

[dave9988]

The local brand of racism is less overt than what passes as racism in many other countries. I have plenty of luk krung friends and they all face employment glass ceilings, with exception perhaps in the meat grinder entertainment industry (which let's not forget only has a few thousand job openings in an economy of tens of millions of jobs). My advice is to stack the odds as much as you can in their favor: education wise and if possible in terms of financial assets. Being a poor luk krung here can very well be a worse fate than being a poor 'full' Thai.

Most people in a salary type job in Thailand are probably not doing too great regardless judging by the fact that on this forum people brag about making 100k a year in an expat job. This is actually one of downfalls of raising children in Thailand, you can expect that they will not make very much money unless they can establish their own business living here.

As for glass ceilings, I have always gotten the impression that practically everyone in a good job here got the job through family relationship as opposed to their own merit, in which case, most luk kruengs won't have a leg to stand on. For example, sometimes I will watch a tv show, and the cameraman will have made so many mistakes that anyone with the absolute slightest amateur's knowledge of cinematogoraphy and production would not make. there are only handful of these series on tv right? they cant find qualified people? You might as well assume that his uncle, dad, step dad, grandma or whatever handed him the job and he learned it in two weeks.

[geometric]

In South Korea, there is a lot of racism toward children of mixed ethicities. 6 out of 10 elementary and middleschool kids say that they think mixed children aren't really Koreans. Mixed-marriage children are shunned, teased, bullied etc. Kids as young as 7 are being beaten up in the bathrooms by children of the same age.

That being said... I wanted to know if the situation is the same in Thailand.

I plan to have a child with my korean fiance, and I dont want to send our kid to public school here. I want to continue teaching ESL, but not here. Is Thailand a safe option for mixed race kids? Are they going to be shunned and teased there as well?

From my experience, like other countries there will be shunning, teasing, bullying etc in an elementary school. I think, in Thailand, there is a bit racist. Especially if you are from developed countries such as USA, European countries, Japan or even Korea, you would be more praised or deserved to be respect for than looked down on, but they will be underestimated people coming from northeast instead. In fact it has been like this for a long time.

[dave9988]

In South Korea, there is a lot of racism toward children of mixed ethicities. 6 out of 10 elementary and middleschool kids say that they think mixed children aren't really Koreans. Mixed-marriage children are shunned, teased, bullied etc. Kids as young as 7 are being beaten up in the bathrooms by children of the same age.

That being said... I wanted to know if the situation is the same in Thailand.

I plan to have a child with my korean fiance, and I dont want to send our kid to public school here. I want to continue teaching ESL, but not here. Is Thailand a safe option for mixed race kids? Are they going to be shunned and teased there as well?

From my experience, like other countries there will be shunning, teasing, bullying etc in an elementary school. I think, in Thailand, there is a bit racist. Especially if you are from developed countries such as USA, European countries, Japan or even Korea, you would be more praised or deserved to be respect for than looked down on, but they will be underestimated people coming from northeast instead. In fact it has been like this for a long time.

one also cannot ignore that there is usually a bit of truth to most stereotypes.

[jubby]

It depends on whether your wife is genuinely from the top echelons of Thai society. Thais are v sensitive to their position in society and would say nothing to somebody they considered to be 'above' them. SHE would 'lose face', not them.

She's not genuinely from the top echelons of Thai Society!. We spent 10 years together in Yorkshire , England. A place not known for its airs and graces and Kow Tow rituals. I once bumped into an old friend (A true English Gentleman about 70 years of age). I was with the wife , a couple of Kids and the wifes thai neice , mid teens. We went to a nice restaraunt and two 'higher class' middle aged Thai couples at the next table got the wrong end of the stick, thinking my old friend was with the neice so to speak. The Guys were fine but the ladies raised there voices so they could be heard with there derogatory remarks; the neice went red and sheepish and sank under the Table almost then my wife silenced them with a snarl and maybe a bit of sarcasm. I don't know exactly what she said but when I next looked around they had left.

The Wife Lost no Face ! I drank another Beer ;-)

Assuming this happened in Thailand, then the reason they left was 'cos they did not want to associate with people like your wife! Your niece personified normal Thai behaviour, and proves my point.

Anyway, I think we can summarise by saying that most Thai's won't look down on mixed race children, but high class Thai's will.

Ok, I'll let you have this one its no skin off my nose. But as we were not actually associating with them at all, and they were rude, I'd like to think they left because they were embarassed and Lost face themselves and maybe will think twice next time but that's in my world maybe.

I tend to generalise also but we've mentioned perhaps a handful of High class Thai's have a problem with it, I'll give the rest a break ;-)

[IMA_FARANG]

I read through the topic....and I have to say yes there is some racist attitudes, but as one commentator said ...that will be more from the upper class Thais than from the lower class. Although they are not my children I know of a family with a mixture of Thai/Indian/Burmese/British ancestry...and they look "darker" tham the average Thai. When they were in school there wasn't as much of a problem with their fellow students as it was from the government officials...because they weren't "full Thai" (father not Thai) they had problems getting I.D. cards then...but the law has no changed now (since Mom is Thai, now they can get I.D. cards with no problem).

I guess you find racisim in every country for mixed blood/mixed race children. But for Thailand it isn't as bad as other countries (Vietnam had a big problem with mixed Vietnamese/Caucasian children for a while, but I think it is becoming less of a problem now). Thailand does have a "snob" attitide from the well off upper class to the mixed asian race Thai children, but the lower class is often more involved with trying to make a living than to worry about what the racial makeup of the other person is, especially if that person speaks Thai like a native. Now for those that can't speak Thai well...that's a different story.

Edited January 29, 2009 by IMA_FARANG

[jubby]

A good summary indeed IMA FARANG.

IMA out of here ;-)

[dave9988]

The local brand of racism is less overt than what passes as racism in many other countries. I have plenty of luk krung friends and they all face employment glass ceilings, with exception perhaps in the meat grinder entertainment industry (which let's not forget only has a few thousand job openings in an economy of tens of millions of jobs). My advice is to stack the odds as much as you can in their favor: education wise and if possible in terms of financial assets. Being a poor luk krung here can very well be a worse fate than being a poor 'full' Thai.

Most people in a salary type job in Thailand are probably not doing too great regardless judging by the fact that on this forum people brag about making 100k a year in an expat job. This is actually one of downfalls of raising children in Thailand, you can expect that they will not make very much money unless they can establish their own business living here.

As for glass ceilings, I have always gotten the impression that practically everyone in a good job here got the job through family relationship as opposed to their own merit, in which case, most luk kruengs won't have a leg to stand on. For example, sometimes I will watch a tv show, and the cameraman will have made so many mistakes that anyone with the absolute slightest amateur's knowledge of cinematogoraphy and production would not make. there are only handful of these series on tv right? they cant find qualified people? You might as well assume that his uncle, dad, step dad, grandma or whatever handed him the job and he learned it in two weeks.

edit: i meant "brag about making 100k a month" not a year.

[F1fanatic]

So as long as you're happy with your child marrying a low class Thai or a farang, you'll be fine.

[noahvail]

Meh...my step-daughter is full Thai, I'm farange 20-something years older than her mother. But when I go to the parent-child events at her school, I'm always mobbed by kids wanting to practice english, and my girl loves it. And I'm starting to get comments from the newbie parents of how much she bears a resemblance to me! She's not a cash machine to these kids (I won't let that happen), just another kid with the difference that her Dad's an english-speaking farange. And life's good for the three of us

[Heng]

The local brand of racism is less overt than what passes as racism in many other countries. I have plenty of luk krung friends and they all face employment glass ceilings, with exception perhaps in the meat grinder entertainment industry (which let's not forget only has a few thousand job openings in an economy of tens of millions of jobs). My advice is to stack the odds as much as you can in their favor: education wise and if possible in terms of financial assets. Being a poor luk krung here can very well be a worse fate than being a poor 'full' Thai.

Most people in a salary type job in Thailand are probably not doing too great regardless judging by the fact that on this forum people brag about making 100k a year in an expat job. This is actually one of downfalls of raising children in Thailand, you can expect that they will not make very much money unless they can establish their own business living here.

As for glass ceilings, I have always gotten the impression that practically everyone in a good job here got the job through family relationship as opposed to their own merit, in which case, most luk kruengs won't have a leg to stand on. For example, sometimes I will watch a tv show, and the cameraman will have made so many mistakes that anyone with the absolute slightest amateur's knowledge of cinematogoraphy and production would not make. there are only handful of these series on tv right? they cant find qualified people? You might as well assume that his uncle, dad, step dad, grandma or whatever handed him the job and he learned it in two weeks.

As for relative salaries, it depends on how you look at it. It's also a lot easier (IMO) to get to life on "Easy Street" here in Bangkok than it is in Manhatten. 100k Baht a month might barely pay the rent whereas here, folks can easily pay off a modest home in a few years.

And it's not just for workers... for business owners and those building their net worth, just about anyone would agree that it's better to own all of the purple and light blue properties than treading water trying to get to Boardwalk. Whereas the old millionaire standard is the norm in the US... which is probably more like 1.8-1.9 million (60+ million Baht) in assets now and NOT including your main home unless you are a wishful thinker.... here you've probably already 'made it' at the (again IMO) 15-20 million Baht in assets (again, not including your main home) mark.

I'm of the opinion that there's still plenty of room for those getting by on their own merit, despite the nepotism norm. The pie is simple too big to consume. I drink all the rum, eat all the bread... and even then there's still plenty of crust left.

[F1fanatic]

So as long as you're happy with your child marrying a low class Thai or a farang, you'll be fine.

What a numpty comment

But, unfortunately, accurate.

[Miserere]

Thai 'celebrities' often don't look Thai, especially the Soap stars/ singers/ movie stars etc....they seem to favour the caucasian image of lighter skin, pointy nose, taller etc....I get the impression being part (white) farang carries in the favour of a mixed race Thai child, as people seem to yearn for this media 'ideal'.

What of negros though?...I havnt seen many black people in Thailand, what are Thai opinion of Negros?

[F1fanatic]

So as long as you're happy with your child marrying a low class Thai or a farang, you'll be fine.

What a numpty comment

But, unfortunately, accurate.

In your head maybe.

Read previous posts, I merely summarised them.

[BygonKeaw]

You'll find racism anywhere . A lot depends on how sensitive you are also. I had a good friend back in the UK who was from afro-carribean desent but was more English than me in my opinion. He also had a wife of Anglo-Saxon desent. He would get very touchy and wouldn't let his guard down and has on several occasions accused me of being racist. Which I believe I'm certainly not. I do have a few issues with some ideologies but thats not a race thing in my book. I would always play my trump card by stating I was in a mixed race relationship Just like him. There's obviously more than a bit of racism towards Farangs here but I don't see a lot of it because I'm not too sensitive about the Issue, not very PC myself and I like diversity in everything including race.

I am however very sensitive when it comes to my children and I can honestly tell you I've seen nothing here to be alarmed about.

If my wife was to hear a conversation like Guesthouse described in the restaurant , she would definately let me know , thats after she had ripped them apart verbally and the dust had settled.

Korea sounds like a nightmare though if what you say is true , a bit like the states or UK a few generations back.

I'm optimistic race will become less and less of an Issue in future generations.

Now whats the topic about again ? ;-)

It depends on whether your wife is genuinely from the top echelons of Thai society. Thais are v sensitive to their position in society and would say nothing to somebody they considered to be 'above' them. SHE would 'lose face', not them.

The conversation Guesthouse overheard doesn't suprise me in the slightest. Top class Thai women don't need to marry farang - and, with the odd exception, don't!

Yet another dig at western men marrying thai women. why do people keep going on about HISO/top class????? There just a minority like BGs.

The topic is about mixed race children not about you trying to vent your frustrations about your problems f1fanatic.

[citizen33]

As far as I know my mixed-race son has not experienced any real discrimination in Thailand, and I have an open mind on this topic (though I suspect that earlier posters are right about subtle cues and glass ceilings). However the thing I find a bit disturbing is the term 'luuk krueng'. In the West when we want to know what people are doing with language, we often look at the construction of the descriptive labels used. At face value. calling somebody a half-child rather than a child would seem to indicate a less-highly valued social status. It seems comparable to Mr Obama's recent joking self-description as a 'mutt'. Can anybody suggest a derivation or understanding of this phrase that would enable us to interpret it in more positive light?

P.S. An earlier poster says:

'Top class Thai women don't need to marry farang - and, with the odd exception, don't!'

It has always struck me that many women in this position actually have a good reason for doing just that. In Thai culture a woman takes her status from her husband. A Thai man can choose to marry a woman who is his social inferior without losing status to any great extent, while the same is not the case for the woman. Many Thai men will choose attractive partners of lower rank, which then leaves a shortage of eligible men for higher-ranking women. There are a surprising number of pleasant (but usually not beautiful) women professionals who remain unmarried. Providing the farang is a man of reasonable social standing and does not expect things to move with unseemly haste, he may be viewed as a viable alternative. The fact that he cannot be fitted exactly into the Thai status hierarchy but has a good job etc, may actually be seen as an advantage. At least that is my theory and I'm sticking to it!

Edited January 29, 2009 by citizen33

[F1fanatic]

You'll find racism anywhere . A lot depends on how sensitive you are also. I had a good friend back in the UK who was from afro-carribean desent but was more English than me in my opinion. He also had a wife of Anglo-Saxon desent. He would get very touchy and wouldn't let his guard down and has on several occasions accused me of being racist. Which I believe I'm certainly not. I do have a few issues with some ideologies but thats not a race thing in my book. I would always play my trump card by stating I was in a mixed race relationship Just like him. There's obviously more than a bit of racism towards Farangs here but I don't see a lot of it because I'm not too sensitive about the Issue, not very PC myself and I like diversity in everything including race.

I am however very sensitive when it comes to my children and I can honestly tell you I've seen nothing here to be alarmed about.

If my wife was to hear a conversation like Guesthouse described in the restaurant , she would definately let me know , thats after she had ripped them apart verbally and the dust had settled.

Korea sounds like a nightmare though if what you say is true , a bit like the states or UK a few generations back.

I'm optimistic race will become less and less of an Issue in future generations.

Now whats the topic about again ? ;-)

It depends on whether your wife is genuinely from the top echelons of Thai society. Thais are v sensitive to their position in society and would say nothing to somebody they considered to be 'above' them. SHE would 'lose face', not them.

The conversation Guesthouse overheard doesn't suprise me in the slightest. Top class Thai women don't need to marry farang - and, with the odd exception, don't!

Yet another dig at western men marrying thai women. why do people keep going on about HISO/top class????? There just a minority like BGs.

The topic is about mixed race children not about you trying to vent your frustrations about your problems f1fanatic.

I originally replied to the topic and then responded to replies. I hate to state the obvious, but you're the one venting your frustrations about a viewpoint you can't refute and therefore are reduced to resorting to personal abuse.

[dave9988]

What of negros though?...I havnt seen many black people in Thailand, what are Thai opinion of Negros?

haha

[Loaded]

The local brand of racism is less overt than what passes as racism in many other countries. I have plenty of luk krung friends and they all face employment glass ceilings, with exception perhaps in the meat grinder entertainment industry (which let's not forget only has a few thousand job openings in an economy of tens of millions of jobs). My advice is to stack the odds as much as you can in their favor: education wise and if possible in terms of financial assets. Being a poor luk krung here can very well be a worse fate than being a poor 'full' Thai.

I think that's true for all Thais. A foreign multinational doesn't give Thais responsibility beyond making tea and looking nice. The only truly rich Thais are politicians, mafia chao pors and army or police generals. Even CP sorted out an environmentalist fisherman who was protesting CP shrimp farms that would kill off his living by sending men dressed in black to shoot him dead. Fortunately, few luk kruengs are accepted into these circles and I would guess that's because they possess morals and ethics. A full-blood Thai often only looks out for himself and his family and not the company or country

Edited January 30, 2009 by Loaded

[jubby]

What of negros though?...I havnt seen many black people in Thailand, what are Thai opinion of Negros?

haha

Can't go there as you well know This little predudice is alive an Kicking without a shadow of a doubt.

and for F1formula whats this class status thing with you. Do you have delisions of grandeur I suspect most of us don't give a rats .... about Class. The so called Highclasses need to take a dump like the rest of us.

I certainly hope 'class' doesn't feature too high in the proceedings when my children seek a mate.

Top class Thai women don't need to marry farang - and, with the odd exception, don't!

The inverse applies also. Got to be too much like hard work

[jubby]

Delusions even

[Heng]

The local brand of racism is less overt than what passes as racism in many other countries. I have plenty of luk krung friends and they all face employment glass ceilings, with exception perhaps in the meat grinder entertainment industry (which let's not forget only has a few thousand job openings in an economy of tens of millions of jobs). My advice is to stack the odds as much as you can in their favor: education wise and if possible in terms of financial assets. Being a poor luk krung here can very well be a worse fate than being a poor 'full' Thai.

I think that's true for all Thais. A foreign multinational doesn't give Thais responsibility beyond making tea and looking nice. The only truly rich Thais are politicians, mafia chao pors and army or police generals. Even CP sorted out an environmentalist fisherman who was protesting CP shrimp farms that would kill off his living by sending men dressed in black to shoot him dead. Fortunately, few luk kruengs are accepted into these circles and I would guess that's because they possess morals and ethics. A full-blood Thai often only looks out for himself and his family and not the company or country

Sounds like you're not quite familiar with the Thai economy, or perhaps you have a very niche definition of "rich." The bulk of employers (employing more than half of the job force) and wealth holders are owners of SME's... and they aren't just a few thousand folks... more like several hundred thousand and by extention of family likely 5-10 million Thais. And yes, there are glass ceilings, but not to the extent which luk krungs face. It's a fine line though between ability and connections. Are there fewer black quarterbacks/coaches/captains of industry etc. because of racism or because of mental ability? It's not one or the other, but it's probably political correctness that makes people say in public that it's more of the former. Now I'm not saying intelligence of business acumen by genetics or anything like that... but simply put, more luk krungs (like Thais from lower socio-economic levels) simply have less exposure to business while growing up. Whe you couple that with glass ceilings, it's a tough playing field for them to make a living on.

As for morals and values: that's like saying people who don't become members of Skull and Bones choose not to because they have better morals and ethics. I'm all for staying positive in less than favorable situations, but that's a total rationalization. "We're not members of the club... so we don't want to be members anyway.... and and... we're better than them."

Edited January 30, 2009 by Heng

[Tyree D.]

Most of us are talking about mixed-Thais while the OP wants to know about a white Korean. In my Korea vs. Thailand thread we talked about how Koreans are worshipped in Thailand (even 10,000 people saw Wonder Girls at Siam Square!) and we know how they feel about the Caucasian male. Put it together your child will be LOVED!!!

anything else would be off topic

[dave9988]

The local brand of racism is less overt than what passes as racism in many other countries. I have plenty of luk krung friends and they all face employment glass ceilings, with exception perhaps in the meat grinder entertainment industry (which let's not forget only has a few thousand job openings in an economy of tens of millions of jobs). My advice is to stack the odds as much as you can in their favor: education wise and if possible in terms of financial assets. Being a poor luk krung here can very well be a worse fate than being a poor 'full' Thai.

I think that's true for all Thais. A foreign multinational doesn't give Thais responsibility beyond making tea and looking nice. The only truly rich Thais are politicians, mafia chao pors and army or police generals. Even CP sorted out an environmentalist fisherman who was protesting CP shrimp farms that would kill off his living by sending men dressed in black to shoot him dead. Fortunately, few luk kruengs are accepted into these circles and I would guess that's because they possess morals and ethics. A full-blood Thai often only looks out for himself and his family and not the company or country

have you seen God Father III? When he cleans up the family and it goes legit with its hundreds of millions of dollars? That is what I think most of the Western elites ended up doing. They scraped their way to the top, often through corruption and blood shed and hard work too, and then once there, they declared themselves the moralist. now, the entire northeast of the usa is run by ultra wealthy old money democrats who are concerned very much with the rights of minorities and the everyday man. I think teh Thai elites are still in the god father I - II stage.

[Sir Burr]

So as long as you're happy with your child marrying a low class Thai or a farang, you'll be fine.

What a numpty comment

But, unfortunately, accurate.

In your head maybe.

Read previous posts, I merely summarised them.

I really don't need to read any other posts to know where you (think) you are coming from F1 Fanatic.

Snobland?

[Heng]

The local brand of racism is less overt than what passes as racism in many other countries. I have plenty of luk krung friends and they all face employment glass ceilings, with exception perhaps in the meat grinder entertainment industry (which let's not forget only has a few thousand job openings in an economy of tens of millions of jobs). My advice is to stack the odds as much as you can in their favor: education wise and if possible in terms of financial assets. Being a poor luk krung here can very well be a worse fate than being a poor 'full' Thai.

I think that's true for all Thais. A foreign multinational doesn't give Thais responsibility beyond making tea and looking nice. The only truly rich Thais are politicians, mafia chao pors and army or police generals. Even CP sorted out an environmentalist fisherman who was protesting CP shrimp farms that would kill off his living by sending men dressed in black to shoot him dead. Fortunately, few luk kruengs are accepted into these circles and I would guess that's because they possess morals and ethics. A full-blood Thai often only looks out for himself and his family and not the company or country

have you seen God Father III? When he cleans up the family and it goes legit with its hundreds of millions of dollars? That is what I think most of the Western elites ended up doing. They scraped their way to the top, often through corruption and blood shed and hard work too, and then once there, they declared themselves the moralist. now, the entire northeast of the usa is run by ultra wealthy old money democrats who are concerned very much with the rights of minorities and the everyday man. I think teh Thai elites are still in the god father I - II stage.

I think the keyword omitted here is "pretend" to be concerned. The concern or well publicized acts of altruism buy political capital. It also, if framed correctly, can nicely shade over past misdeeds. It's no different than a local godfather who murders someone and then goes out and builds a highly visible shrine in a temple for the victim.

That 'pretend to be concerned' stage exists here as well but IMO is kept in check with real family interests that are more important.

[Groongthep]

I think the keyword omitted here is "pretend" to be concerned. The concern or well publicized acts of altruism buy political capital. It also, if framed correctly, can nicely shade over past misdeeds. It's no different than a local godfather who murders someone and then goes out and builds a highly visible shrine in a temple for the victim.

That 'pretend to be concerned' stage exists here as well but IMO is kept in check with real family interests that are more important.

Heng has hit the nail right on the head here. An excellent example is this guy Nattakorn Devakul who is often seen on the few English language news programs on Thai television. In one sentence he denigrates just about everything foreign (in spite of his western education) and talks of helping the less fortunate and in the next sentence fiercely defends the perks and special status of the ultra elite because it is the Thai way. Most notably in a recent NBT interview he sharply criticized the proposed inheritance tax. The tax would, of course, effect him and the other old elite families more than the middle and lower classes. A pretender and a hypocrite of the highest order IMHO.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Groongthep

[MSingh]

In a Land where Mixed Gender is tolerated as much as it is, i very much doubt & haven't really seen evidence of prejudice against Mixed Races, especially Children...

[Loaded]

I think a luk krueng with a Thai and British/US/Australian passport and a degree from a British/US/Australian university is more employable to a foreign company than a full-blood Thai who graduated from Payap Uni majoring in how to make 100 hello kitty postures in photographs.