I Will Return To Post Of Prime Minister: Thaksin

[hammered]

Techinically we are going to "celebrate" the sixth anniversary of Drug War soon, but "five years ago" phrase used by Giles shoould cover that period as well.

It's true that for the first few weeks there was extensive coverage in the media, but it is also a fact that the government put a tight lid on it when this coverage became threatening to the govt itself. Human Rights Watch and The Nation could criticise it all they want, it's not quite the same as the daily impact of bloody corpses on front pages of all Thai dailies and body count tickertape on Thai TV.

And by describing Thaksin's bloodiest year as "burgeoning democracy" Giles is not tricking anyone that he is not Thaksin's supporter. Five years ago he wasn't, granted, but now it walks and talks like a duck.

And the worst thing is that he wrote that article for Guardian, to "inform" the Brits about his country. They'd swallow this shit hook line and sinker.

"Burgeoning democracy under Thaksin" has no chance of flying in Thailand. Giles would be ridiculed by editors even if they allow this nonsense to be printed in the first place.

But for this patriot it's not the truth that matters, he has his own story to sell, and it can't start with "five years ago democracy was under serious threat in Thailand", so let's rewrite it. To hel_l with the truth and how readers would perceive Thailand.

To fit a marxist historical framework the analysis needs to be a developing capitalist class trying to take the reigns of power in a positive and progressive manner from a feudal/mercantalist class was resisted and struck back against by the forces of fuedal power. That is how Giles is trying to analyse it. However, that both sides included forces of reaction and forces or progression kind of messed the analysis up. That is why the left is so badly split in Thailand. Giles reresents one arm of it. The analysis also fails on a number of historical points in capitalist and pluralistic democratic development imho; not to mention the peasantry needs to be redefined as a working class to use the strict marxist historical analysis. A numbe rof problems but no doubt theroetical left wing academiocs will argue the point and I persoanally will leave them to it.

Five years ago it could be argued that even a developing democracy was not really happening although it would depend on how you defined democracy. If only as elections then it was. If it was meant to include the trappings usually associated with democracy - relative freedom of speech, human rights, checks and balances etc - then it could be seen as taking a step back. Certainly these ares had moved backwards since pre-millenium times and they remain backwards now.

all imho

There are other reasons for the split in the left. One of them is that many former leftists that returned from the jungle received grants for education, and underwent ideological transformations. I have read comments of Giles where he himself called this a somewhat "messed up" class war. I believe he is aware of the problems of applying Marxist theory too dogmatic to the present conditions.

5 Years ago there was relative freedom of speech in Thailand. There were serious infractions against Human Rights just happening the year before (drugwar killings). The checks and balances system function functioned not very well, but it was not completely dysfunctional. Yet there were more people oriented politics than under the previous governments. In some aspects Thaksin's Thailand had clear signs of regression into more authoritarian rule, but it also had elements of democracy more developed than previosuly.

I believe one should be careful with issueing hyperbolic blanket statements of either way.

Especially now, the authoritarian streek of the Thai government has remained also under the Democrat government, Human Rights violations have continued, and freedom of speech now is in many aspects not given. The foreign media is now attacked worse than it has been under Thaksin by PAD and some quarters of the Democrat government.

And, the military is now more involved in politics than it has been since '92.

I do not see that things have moved in any positive direction in terms of democratic development.

In terms of freedoms and human rights it has all been downhill since the millenium which began with such hope. Then again that is true of much of the so called western world too where a lot of basic rights have been reinterpreted and reduced but that is another matter. Iirc the military also had its biggest budget cuts and was placed under a civilian DM pre-millenium too. Thailand needs to get back to when it was seen internationally as a role model in asia and when the media was the freest in SEAsia. Cant see much point in trying to justify any of the recent authoritarian governments in terms of how they were relatively better or worse to each other. Thailand needs to get back to where it was before in terms of basic rights. In doing so the populist policies arent going to disppear (look at the current lot going mad on them) and the poor are going to have a bigger say. It is the other stuff - human rights, freedoms and checks and balances and fairness and willingness to allow others their right to think, do and vote how they want - that needs working on. That wont be easy in the current economic clime, and it wont be easy while street protest continues.

[justanothercybertosser]

In terms of freedoms and human rights it has all been downhill since the millenium which began with such hope. Then again that is true of much of the so called western world too where a lot of basic rights have been reinterpreted and reduced but that is another matter. Iirc the military also had its biggest budget cuts and was placed under a civilian DM pre-millenium too. Thailand needs to get back to when it was seen internationally as a role model in asia and when the media was the freest in SEAsia. Cant see much point in trying to justify any of the recent authoritarian governments in terms of how they were relatively better or worse to each other. Thailand needs to get back to where it was before in terms of basic rights. In doing so the populist policies arent going to disppear (look at the current lot going mad on them) and the poor are going to have a bigger say. It is the other stuff - human rights, freedoms and checks and balances and fairness and willingness to allow others their right to think, do and vote how they want - that needs working on. That wont be easy in the current economic clime, and it wont be easy while street protest continues.

That i agree with.

Yet i do not see this happening with the present government either.

We should see how the Red Shirts continue to develop, if they can manage to transform beyond Thaksin. But we have to accept that there are many people who do still admire Thaksin as the Prime Minister that has helped them more than any other. It is their right to have that opinion.

[rixalex]

always blaming the boogie man when someone doesnt agree with your views.

ohhh must be colpyat. must be a troll. must be a banned nic

nothing but a bunch of baseless and wild accusations.

For the record then mc2, can you categorically state that you have never posted in this forum under a different name? Same question to The Tosser.

[mc2]

you know as well as I do that this thread is not the place for questions like that.

lets stop with the wild accusations and keep on topic.

[sriracha john]

Techinically we are going to "celebrate" the sixth anniversary of Drug War soon, but "five years ago" phrase used by Giles shoould cover that period as well.

So, in order to let facts suit your argument, 5 years ago is now "technically" 6 years.

The National Human Rights commission (i did not mention Human Rights watch - one is an NGO and the other a at that time still independent commission) did make a damning report criticizing the drug war killings. In this aspect, and not just technically, the system is Thailand under Thaksin did function to some extend. And in a developing democracy it is not expected that systems function perfectly.

Also, i would suggest reading the relevant UN report - and that states that the killings were regrettable, but the drug war altogether has led to a massive reduction of the drug trade.

That argument may have no chance of flying with you. The facts in Thailand though speak for this argument. Thaksin was never more popular than during the drug war. No government after, including the rabidly anti Thaksin governments, have made any serious effort to investigate the killings other than forming toothless committess.

What you conveniently ignore though is that Thailand had a drug problem that was completely out of control.

more Colpyat-isms... but at least he's more up front about it now.

always blaming the boogie man when someone doesnt agree with your views.

ohhh must be colpyat. must be a troll. must be a banned nic

nothing but a bunch of baseless and wild accusations.

At least 27 documented banned nicks for one individual is not a "boogie man"... it's a very real and disruptive problem for the forum.

btw, it's easy to develop an aptitude for detection. My history of proven accusations speaks for itself.

as panda found out

dr_Pat_Pong has just posted a reply to a topic that you have subscribed to titled "Penang Hotel".

----------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE (panda66 @ 2007-05-01 13:53:29)

Mr.sriracha john,

please explain to me, why do u think I am the same person?

How can you know that?

-----------------------------

He is a troll picker...that is how

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited February 21, 2009 by sriracha john

[hammered]

In terms of freedoms and human rights it has all been downhill since the millenium which began with such hope. Then again that is true of much of the so called western world too where a lot of basic rights have been reinterpreted and reduced but that is another matter. Iirc the military also had its biggest budget cuts and was placed under a civilian DM pre-millenium too. Thailand needs to get back to when it was seen internationally as a role model in asia and when the media was the freest in SEAsia. Cant see much point in trying to justify any of the recent authoritarian governments in terms of how they were relatively better or worse to each other. Thailand needs to get back to where it was before in terms of basic rights. In doing so the populist policies arent going to disppear (look at the current lot going mad on them) and the poor are going to have a bigger say. It is the other stuff - human rights, freedoms and checks and balances and fairness and willingness to allow others their right to think, do and vote how they want - that needs working on. That wont be easy in the current economic clime, and it wont be easy while street protest continues.

That i agree with.

Yet i do not see this happening with the present government either.

We should see how the Red Shirts continue to develop, if they can manage to transform beyond Thaksin. But we have to accept that there are many people who do still admire Thaksin as the Prime Minister that has helped them more than any other. It is their right to have that opinion.

I doubt the current government will achieve it. Actually right at this point in time I doubt any goevrnment could. I cant see any problem with people liking Thaksin. No doubt over time some will like him less and some more and others will change their opinions.

In all likelihood the best way to get back the lost freedoms etc is for genuine national reconcilliation/politcal reform with those on all sides willing to compromise, and nobody trying to dictate. At the moment though it seems that there is too much emotion and too much going for a win for this to happen, and too many worried at losing something. There are also quite a number of sides and interest groups, and as with everything money, hidden agendas and all kinds of macchiavelian manouvers are order of the day in Thailand.

[hammered]

For the record, never had another nick myself and dont want one. Mind you I come on here for some good debate (sure sometimes it happens!) and I 'll admit it a chance to also throw around a few wind ups and sarcastic comments (we are all human). Cant say it bothers me too much who is who on here. It would be nice if people who had changed their nicks let on as we have all lost a few friends on here over time. Maybe that cant be done for rule reasons though. But at the end of the day it is more about what is said than who says it that interests me.

To a bit of a younghusbnad (havent seen him in a while) there are people whose opinions I respect more than others but...... And they dont all necessarily share my opinions although some do. Live and let live I guess.

[rixalex]

For the record then mc2, can you categorically state that you have never posted in this forum under a different name? Same question to The Tosser.

you know as well as I do that this thread is not the place for questions like that.

It might not be the right place, but you've already made comments on the subject of multiple nics and banned members reincarnated, so how difficult would it have been to just answer "yes" to the question? It would seem very.

[hammered]

For the record then mc2, can you categorically state that you have never posted in this forum under a different name? Same question to The Tosser.

you know as well as I do that this thread is not the place for questions like that.

It might not be the right place, but you've already made comments on the subject of multiple nics and banned members reincarnated, so how difficult would it have been to just answer "yes" to the question? It would seem very.

MC2 and I rarely agree on much at all but I wouldnt want to see him pushed off of this forum because he broke some rule about nicknames. I miss some of the banned but realise that is not an issue that should be discussed so will leave it at that

[justanothercybertosser]

I doubt the current government will achieve it. Actually right at this point in time I doubt any goevrnment could. I cant see any problem with people liking Thaksin. No doubt over time some will like him less and some more and others will change their opinions.

In all likelihood the best way to get back the lost freedoms etc is for genuine national reconcilliation/politcal reform with those on all sides willing to compromise, and nobody trying to dictate. At the moment though it seems that there is too much emotion and too much going for a win for this to happen, and too many worried at losing something. There are also quite a number of sides and interest groups, and as with everything money, hidden agendas and all kinds of macchiavelian manouvers are order of the day in Thailand.

The current Government would have had it in its hands, if it would not have been completely infiltrated by PAD and its supporters. There was a brief window of opportunity, but that has been completely lost by appointing Kasit as FM. from then on it was only hypocrisy.

The soap opera continues.

[mc2]

For the record, I have been banned once before.

[mc2]

but not on this forum

[jdinasia]

always blaming the boogie man when someone doesnt agree with your views.

ohhh must be colpyat. must be a troll. must be a banned nic

nothing but a bunch of baseless and wild accusations.

For the record then mc2, can you categorically state that you have never posted in this forum under a different name? Same question to The Tosser.

lol

both have been banned more than once.

[sriracha john]

For the record, I have been banned once before.

Confession is good for the soul...

Now, it's Colpyat/Tosser's turn.

[mc2]

For the record, I have been banned once before.

Confession is good for the soul...

Now, it's Colpyat/Tosser's turn.

gotcha

[justanothercybertosser]

MC2 and I rarely agree on much at all but I wouldnt want to see him pushed off of this forum because he broke some rule about nicknames. I miss some of the banned but realise that is not an issue that should be discussed so will leave it at that

You have to understand though that for some people this forum appears to be their only lifeline, judging from the years they spend here almost non-stop. Anyone that disagrees with their views in a cyber world they may spend more time with than in the real world has to be hunted down and expelled, no matter what, and even if it is through witch hunts, attempts of mobbing and creation of bogey men.

Rather sad how serious some people take these discussions.

[sriracha john]

MC2 and I rarely agree on much at all but I wouldnt want to see him pushed off of this forum because he broke some rule about nicknames. I miss some of the banned but realise that is not an issue that should be discussed so will leave it at that

You have to understand though that for some people this forum appears to be their only lifeline, judging from the years they spend here almost non-stop. Anyone that disagrees with their views in a cyber world they may spend more time with than in the real world has to be hunted down and expelled, no matter what, and even if it is through witch hunts, attempts of mobbing and creation of bogey men.

Rather sad how serious some people take these discussions.

Thank you for your confession, Colpyat... you'll feel better later

[justanothercybertosser]

And by the way, can we stop clogging this rather interesting discussion with such boring and infantile mudslinging that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic?

Why don't you people complain to the moderators, and let them ban posters, or not.

[sriracha john]

And by the way, can we stop clogging this rather interesting discussion with such boring and infantile mudslinging that has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic?

Why don't you people complain to the moderators, and let them ban posters, or not.

It's mainly just a carbon-copy of discussions repeated from well over a year ago before your first banning and repeated every time you return ... practically verbatim in many posts.

Edited February 21, 2009 by sriracha john

[hammered]

I doubt the current government will achieve it. Actually right at this point in time I doubt any goevrnment could. I cant see any problem with people liking Thaksin. No doubt over time some will like him less and some more and others will change their opinions.

In all likelihood the best way to get back the lost freedoms etc is for genuine national reconcilliation/politcal reform with those on all sides willing to compromise, and nobody trying to dictate. At the moment though it seems that there is too much emotion and too much going for a win for this to happen, and too many worried at losing something. There are also quite a number of sides and interest groups, and as with everything money, hidden agendas and all kinds of macchiavelian manouvers are order of the day in Thailand.

The current Government would have had it in its hands, if it would not have been completely infiltrated by PAD and its supporters. There was a brief window of opportunity, but that has been completely lost by appointing Kasit as FM. from then on it was only hypocrisy.

The soap opera continues.

I personally thought appointing Kasit as FM was daft. Not sure how it really affects most people though. I pretty much get the impression that the current lot are being given a chance by many of those who voted for PPP, or it could just be people are tired of politcs and scared over the economy. The bigger problems are going to come from econmoic problems than poltical ones imho.

By the way apparently Thaksin is going to be appointed chief adviser to PTP and used on election material next time around. I would guess that implies a longer game by PTP hoping that the Dems and Newin will be linked to the bad economy when the next election comes along if indeed one does.

[justanothercybertosser]

I personally thought appointing Kasit as FM was daft. Not sure how it really affects most people though. I pretty much get the impression that the current lot are being given a chance by many of those who voted for PPP, or it could just be people are tired of politcs and scared over the economy. The bigger problems are going to come from econmoic problems than poltical ones imho.

By the way apparently Thaksin is going to be appointed chief adviser to PTP and used on election material next time around. I would guess that implies a longer game by PTP hoping that the Dems and Newin will be linked to the bad economy when the next election comes along if indeed one does.

I am not sure about it being daft. Abhisit is far from daft - he is an intelligent power broker. I believe though that many people are still giving him the benefit of doubt that he might not be deeply involved with PAD. I think that there is more and more evidence coming in the open that he indeed is more than just sympathetic to PAD and its backers. Being in government gives enormous leverage in terms of international lobbying, and that is what Kasit has been doing, that is what the democrats have always excelled in.

It is not difficult to see that dems and newin will be linked to the bad economy. Not all is the fault of the dems, but the Suvarnabhumi occupation did cost the country billions.

[rixalex]

For the record then mc2, can you categorically state that you have never posted in this forum under a different name? Same question to The Tosser.

you know as well as I do that this thread is not the place for questions like that.

It might not be the right place, but you've already made comments on the subject of multiple nics and banned members reincarnated, so how difficult would it have been to just answer "yes" to the question? It would seem very.

MC2 and I rarely agree on much at all but I wouldnt want to see him pushed off of this forum because he broke some rule about nicknames. I miss some of the banned but realise that is not an issue that should be discussed so will leave it at that

For the record, i have no desire to see anyone who is complying to forum rules pushed off.

Just be nice to get straight answers to straight questions.

(As for missing banned members Hammered - i think you need not as most of them are still amongst us in one guise or another)

[sriracha john]

For the record then mc2, can you categorically state that you have never posted in this forum under a different name? Same question to The Tosser.

you know as well as I do that this thread is not the place for questions like that.

It might not be the right place, but you've already made comments on the subject of multiple nics and banned members reincarnated, so how difficult would it have been to just answer "yes" to the question? It would seem very.

MC2 and I rarely agree on much at all but I wouldnt want to see him pushed off of this forum because he broke some rule about nicknames. I miss some of the banned but realise that is not an issue that should be discussed so will leave it at that

For the record, i have no desire to see anyone who is complying to forum rules pushed off.

Just be nice to get straight answers to straight questions.

(As for missing banned members Hammered - i think you need not as most of them are still amongst us in one guise or another)

and that's part of the problem and the disruptive nature they create.... they don't give straight answers... nor are they sincere.

There's very good reasons for not allowing their return, no matter how many times they try, for those who have proven repeatedly not to be willing to comply with rules.

They are very much like their role model Thaksin in that regard.

Edited February 21, 2009 by sriracha john

[hammered]

I personally thought appointing Kasit as FM was daft. Not sure how it really affects most people though. I pretty much get the impression that the current lot are being given a chance by many of those who voted for PPP, or it could just be people are tired of politcs and scared over the economy. The bigger problems are going to come from econmoic problems than poltical ones imho.

By the way apparently Thaksin is going to be appointed chief adviser to PTP and used on election material next time around. I would guess that implies a longer game by PTP hoping that the Dems and Newin will be linked to the bad economy when the next election comes along if indeed one does.

I am not sure about it being daft. Abhisit is far from daft - he is an intelligent power broker. I believe though that many people are still giving him the benefit of doubt that he might not be deeply involved with PAD. I think that there is more and more evidence coming in the open that he indeed is more than just sympathetic to PAD and its backers. Being in government gives enormous leverage in terms of international lobbying, and that is what Kasit has been doing, that is what the democrats have always excelled in.

It is not difficult to see that dems and newin will be linked to the bad economy. Not all is the fault of the dems, but the Suvarnabhumi occupation did cost the country billions.

I am not sure it is benefit of doubt over PAD involvement that people are giving him as much as the usual chance any new leader gets coupled with a boredom of political upheavel and some fear.

My feeling is that if this government fails it is more likely we will see a move by the bureacracy to do new politcs than any election in which PTP will come back. I do assume PTP holding together there as well which is not certain especially if more evidentially sound cases against Thaksin start making it into court. If PTP do spilt up no doubt enough will end up in bureacracy friendly parties to ensure the bureacracy will trust an election. I think that is the aim really. However, all plans.....

I doubt anything is certain especailly with the world economic recession looking worse all the time.

[ubonjoe]

Rather than go back and clean out all the posts with the word "tosser" in it I am leaving them.

The next use of the word will get a formal warning.

The use of this word will be considered flamming.

See this definition of 'tosser" http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tosser

[justanothercybertosser]

However, all plans.....

That is right now my bet for the future. There are far too many for Thailand completely new developments presently coming up that i would not dare to make any guess on what may happen. I only believe that we will see soon upheavals again, the only question is how large.

[Koo82]

I never care if yellow posters here have been banned and returned. The more the merrier. Seems that yellow posters care so much if red posters have been banned.

[sriracha john]

Goodness will return, Ex-PM tells MPs

Fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra told the opposition Puea Thai party MPs to protect the democratic system and look after the people in the country, according to Puea Thai MP Suchart Lainam-ngern.

A group of Puea Thai MPs met the deposed prime minister in Hong Kong on Sunday morning.

Mr Suchart said the self-exiled premier told his followers to uphold the democratic system because he believed goodness will return to the country.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/13...ex-pm-tells-mps

[sriracha john]

Puea Thai Party MP Suchart Lainam-ngern

[Sandstone Art]

Puea Thai Party MP Suchart Lainam-ngern

'Goodness' ??

Thaksin should set by example to uphold the democratic system by admitting his wrong doings and do his jail sentence!