Buy America

[ray23]

We see this all over the news today.

On BBC this morning I saw compelling poitions both ways. One from the United Steel Workers, a industry that has been reduced by 60% over the last few decades. One could argue that it is because they cost is simply to high. But, as the Presiden of the Union said, you are taking my tax dollars, to bail the economy out. Why should I not recieve the benefit as well. point well taken.

The other reality it simply costs more for the American worker to live then say his counter part in India.

So where is the balance?

On the other hand you have Caterpillar an American compnay, saying we derive lots of our business from exports, we do not want to see a restriction to trade. Valid point as well.

When we entered the first World War and the second our industry was not there to meet the needs. It can be dangerous to lose your skilled workers in fields like those needed. In times of emergency.

Are we seeing protectionism for the blue collar worker in the UK yes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7868777.stm

The world is in trouble the natural reaction is to save your own. But we are also seeing that in the great Depression this was a major factor is making things worse

Does Thailand do the same yes otherwise I would not have to pay a 200% tax on bringing a big bike into the country. We have seen in the past a National Policy to charge foreigners more to visit parks exhibits then Thais. Is that really free trade I think not.

America may in fact be violating Free Trade Agreements it has established with the world. Far to complex for me to understand I won't even try.

I think this is going to be difficult issue in the near future.

I would like to see others thoughts. Obvioulsy I'm American so this not an American bashing thread.

[Soutpeel]

And what has this got to do with Thailand....

America has historically violated many free trade agreements and imposes many protectionist type systems to prevent the propagation of the economic system they profess is one of the corner stones of their so-called democratic country...Capitalism....

While working in the US, a senior manager at an engineering company said to me that ISO 9001 was a worldwide conspiracy against the US to prevent US exports to Europe....at which point they had to pick me up off the floor because I was laughing so much...

[churchill]

I see nothing wrong with encouraging Americans to buy American , In the UK for many years they had a buy British campaign with stickers on items produced in the UK .

I don't agree with trade tarifs and subsidies and think that there should be a level playing field for all .

[ray23]

Buy America is just a lable to get the topic started, what does have to do with Thailand three years ago Thailand would look other way for those foriegn labors coming in here. To get the cheap labor today the stick on boats in the Ocean, Things have changed.

Protectionism is what it has to do with Thailand and every country in the world. What will the effects of that be.?

Last time it made for a or at least contributed to Great Depression.

Just out of curiosty, do you really believe that what happens in the rest of the world does not effect Thailand?

[LennyW]

And what has this got to do with Thailand....

America has historically violated many free trade agreements and imposes many protectionist type systems to prevent the propagation of the economic system they profess is one of the corner stones of their so-called democratic country...Capitalism....

While working in the US, a senior manager at an engineering company said to me that ISO 9001 was a worldwide conspiracy against the US to prevent US exports to Europe....at which point they had to pick me up off the floor because I was laughing so much...

Thats a belter!!!!

[OriginalPoster]

While working in the US, a senior manager at an engineering company said to me that ISO 9001 was a worldwide conspiracy against the US to prevent US exports to Europe....at which point they had to pick me up off the floor because I was laughing so much...

Since you are an expert on this, can you explain what is the advantage of ISO certification to the consumer?

[henryalleman]

Today Obama announced that he will not implement protective measures, because he is afraid to start a trade war who will certainly hurt the US much more than the profit of protective measures to protect the US industry.

[JimsKnight]

ISO is an EU meddling way of getting rid of your own brands of quality assurance/standards for things and replacing it with theirs.

It's like - Let's bring everyone under one-roof and fck any individual way an entity/country has of doing it for OUR way!

[churchill]

While working in the US, a senior manager at an engineering company said to me that ISO 9001 was a worldwide conspiracy against the US to prevent US exports to Europe....at which point they had to pick me up off the floor because I was laughing so much...

Since you are an expert on this, can you explain what is the advantage of ISO certification to the consumer?

I don't know but I guess red tape invented by people who are paid fortunes to invent more rules and regulations - I am not sure how many times , whilst working in London , rules were changed and adapted to - even though the rules were idiotic- only for the rules to be amended again at a latter date because they didn't work .

Best to have a very few strong basic rules to protect everyone and leave the rest to competition .

[ray23]

Today Obama announced that he will not implement protective measures, because he is afraid to start a trade war who will certainly hurt the US much more than the profit of protective measures to protect the US industry.

Good one less dead horse to kick.

[OriginalPoster]

While working in the US, a senior manager at an engineering company said to me that ISO 9001 was a worldwide conspiracy against the US to prevent US exports to Europe....at which point they had to pick me up off the floor because I was laughing so much...

Since you are an expert on this, can you explain what is the advantage of ISO certification to the consumer?

I don't know but I guess red tape invented by people who are paid fortunes to invent more rules and regulations - I am not sure how many times , whilst working in London , rules were changed and adapted to - even though the rules were idiotic- only for the rules to be amended again at a latter date because they didn't work .

Best to have a very few strong basic rules to protect everyone and leave the rest to competition .

The way it seems to me is that ISO auditors just check to make sure that you were following the procedures that you documented, without making any determination about whether the procedures make any sense. What arises from that is that some pretty shoddy factories in places like Thailand will pass ISO audits with flying colours while factories in countries where documenting comes second to doing will often be on the hairy edge between passing and not passing. The problem, in my view is that ISO auditors are not manufacturing experts, they are bureaucrats who are good at following directions and are great at feigning indignation when others do not follow directions. But heck, if ISO gives us a vehicle to ridicule Americans, it can't be all bad.

Edited February 4, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[jumnien]

I think you made a freudian slip in the title. I think you meant this thread to be about protectionism and a "buy American" policy. Instead, you wrote, "buy America", which is exactly what China and others are doing with all the dollars we are giving them in exchange for trinkets and oil.

[henryalleman]

ISO is an EU meddling way of getting rid of your own brands of quality assurance/standards for things and replacing it with theirs.

It's like - Let's bring everyone under one-roof and fck any individual way an entity/country has of doing it for OUR way!

ISO and DIN standards are maybe hard to swallow for Americans but its the only way to guarantee an equal standard of quality in an unified internal market of more than 500 million people and 27 countries.

If you like to export you must apply to the standards of your export market.

[Naam]

While working in the US, a senior manager at an engineering company said to me that ISO 9001 was a worldwide conspiracy against the US to prevent US exports to Europe....at which point they had to pick me up off the floor because I was laughing so much...

Since you are an expert on this, can you explain what is the advantage of ISO certification to the consumer?

I don't know but I guess red tape invented by people who are paid fortunes to invent more rules and regulations - I am not sure how many times , whilst working in London , rules were changed and adapted to - even though the rules were idiotic- only for the rules to be amended again at a latter date because they didn't work .

Best to have a very few strong basic rules to protect everyone and leave the rest to competition .

The way it seems to me is that ISO auditors just check to make sure that you were following the procedures that you documented, without making any determination about whether the procedures make any sense. What arises from that is that some pretty shoddy factories in places like Thailand will pass ISO audits with flying colours while factories in countries where documenting comes second to doing will often be on the hairy edge between passing and not passing. The problem, in my view is that ISO auditors are not manufacturing experts, they are bureaucrats who are good at following directions and are great at feigning indignation when others do not follow directions. But heck, if ISO gives us a vehicle to ridicule Americans, it can't be all bad.

that -unfortunately- applies quite often. it depends however on the product and production facilities but the bottom line is that ISO norms have a certain positive value for the potential customer if the product is not t-shirts, toothpicks or the like.

[ray23]

No I don't think I missed on the title, it was a stipulation to receiving money from the bail out package, on specific items IE steel. Looks like we have rethink in progress. Free trade has probably never existed as it is thought of. Alway's been tariff's on certain items.

But protectionism is the fear. Before this is over we will see more of that from a lot of countries, Just depends on how deep it goes as to the effect on the world economy. But I have been wrong before.

[OriginalPoster]

While working in the US, a senior manager at an engineering company said to me that ISO 9001 was a worldwide conspiracy against the US to prevent US exports to Europe....at which point they had to pick me up off the floor because I was laughing so much...

Since you are an expert on this, can you explain what is the advantage of ISO certification to the consumer?

I don't know but I guess red tape invented by people who are paid fortunes to invent more rules and regulations - I am not sure how many times , whilst working in London , rules were changed and adapted to - even though the rules were idiotic- only for the rules to be amended again at a latter date because they didn't work .

Best to have a very few strong basic rules to protect everyone and leave the rest to competition .

The way it seems to me is that ISO auditors just check to make sure that you were following the procedures that you documented, without making any determination about whether the procedures make any sense. What arises from that is that some pretty shoddy factories in places like Thailand will pass ISO audits with flying colours while factories in countries where documenting comes second to doing will often be on the hairy edge between passing and not passing. The problem, in my view is that ISO auditors are not manufacturing experts, they are bureaucrats who are good at following directions and are great at feigning indignation when others do not follow directions. But heck, if ISO gives us a vehicle to ridicule Americans, it can't be all bad.

that -unfortunately- applies quite often. it depends however on the product and production facilities but the bottom line is that ISO norms have a certain positive value for the potential customer if the product is not t-shirts, toothpicks or the like.

Except that ISO generally doesn't set standards for product quality going out the door, they merely make sure that documented procedures are being followed within the factories. They focus on methods rather than the outcomes. You use t-shirts as an example but there is no reason to think that ISO does more to ensure quality for high-tech products than for low tech products. If you buy, for instance, some memory chips for your computer, whether they work or not is mosly going to be a function of whether they worked in the test set that screened them before being shipped, it's not going to be a function of whether the engineer in charge wiped twice (as he documenting that he would) after taking a dump. However the ISO audit may well be passed or failed depending upon whether protocol was followed during the dump.

Edited February 5, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[Soutpeel]

While working in the US, a senior manager at an engineering company said to me that ISO 9001 was a worldwide conspiracy against the US to prevent US exports to Europe....at which point they had to pick me up off the floor because I was laughing so much...

Since you are an expert on this, can you explain what is the advantage of ISO certification to the consumer?

I don't know but I guess red tape invented by people who are paid fortunes to invent more rules and regulations - I am not sure how many times , whilst working in London , rules were changed and adapted to - even though the rules were idiotic- only for the rules to be amended again at a latter date because they didn't work .

Best to have a very few strong basic rules to protect everyone and leave the rest to competition .

The way it seems to me is that ISO auditors just check to make sure that you were following the procedures that you documented, without making any determination about whether the procedures make any sense. What arises from that is that some pretty shoddy factories in places like Thailand will pass ISO audits with flying colours while factories in countries where documenting comes second to doing will often be on the hairy edge between passing and not passing. The problem, in my view is that ISO auditors are not manufacturing experts, they are bureaucrats who are good at following directions and are great at feigning indignation when others do not follow directions. But heck, if ISO gives us a vehicle to ridicule Americans, it can't be all bad.

In a nutshell all ISO 9001 does....it requires a company to document the way it operates, in line with ISO 9001 standard, and all an ISO audit is..... to ensure that the company is following the system they have documented.

Having been involved with QA/QC, TQM systems over many years, I can assure you that having ISO 9001 accreditation means absolutely d*cksh*t as regards the final product quality, all it proves is that the company has "quality" paperwork thats all and it has documented all its quality f*kc ups..in the correct manner...

[OriginalPoster]

While working in the US, a senior manager at an engineering company said to me that ISO 9001 was a worldwide conspiracy against the US to prevent US exports to Europe....at which point they had to pick me up off the floor because I was laughing so much...

Since you are an expert on this, can you explain what is the advantage of ISO certification to the consumer?

I don't know but I guess red tape invented by people who are paid fortunes to invent more rules and regulations - I am not sure how many times , whilst working in London , rules were changed and adapted to - even though the rules were idiotic- only for the rules to be amended again at a latter date because they didn't work .

Best to have a very few strong basic rules to protect everyone and leave the rest to competition .

The way it seems to me is that ISO auditors just check to make sure that you were following the procedures that you documented, without making any determination about whether the procedures make any sense. What arises from that is that some pretty shoddy factories in places like Thailand will pass ISO audits with flying colours while factories in countries where documenting comes second to doing will often be on the hairy edge between passing and not passing. The problem, in my view is that ISO auditors are not manufacturing experts, they are bureaucrats who are good at following directions and are great at feigning indignation when others do not follow directions. But heck, if ISO gives us a vehicle to ridicule Americans, it can't be all bad.

In a nutshell all ISO 9001 does....it requires a company to document the way it operates, in line with ISO 9001 standard, and all an ISO audit is..... to ensure that the company is following the system they have documented.

Having been involved with QA/QC, TQM systems over many years, I can assure you that having ISO 9001 accreditation means absolutely d*cksh*t as regards the final product quality, all it proves is that the company has "quality" paperwork thats all and it has documented all its quality f*kc ups..in the correct manner...

Exactly. I never heard the theory before that ISO was a vehicle for protectionism against the US, though I've certainly heard plenty of American engineering managers complaining about ISO. it's an ironic view really, as American companies did as much as anyone in promoting ISO. ISO seemed to come on full force in the 1990's as defense spending in the US declined and people who specialized interpreting & enforcing Milspecs needed to reinvent their careers.

Where the company that I worked for back in those days initially went wrong when ISO certification started to become fashionable was that they made the whole thing too complicated. For instance, and auditor might go into an R&D department and ask an engineer how he knows what task he is supposed to perform on a given day. The company's initial inclination was to try to cover that contingency by writing up step-by-step procedures about how an engineer would approach his job. But then the auditor would latch onto that document and expect it to be followed like a cookbook, only to find that the way the engineer that they were interviewing really approached his job was different than what it said on paper. Eventually they figured out that to keep the auditor happy was not to document the hel_l out of each engineer's work routine, but rather to have engineers give answers to the auditor along the lines of "I ask my boss what to do".

Edited February 5, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[Wrong Turn]

I see nothing wrong with encouraging Americans to buy American

But what does the US make today?

Very little.

And, there are not cars that are completely American. So buying an "American" car is not really buying American.

[Gary A]

In 2002 I had a Honda Civic that had about 80 percent US content. The Big Three all contained less parts made in the US than that Honda.

Thailand was getting back into the garment industry that had been lost to the Chinese. I think the Chinese are tired of working for dirt wages so maybe things will even out a little over here. With the economy in the pits, I hope those new factories don't belly up before a recovery.

They part that irritates me is the US government having no problems bailing out the thieves in Wall Street and the banks but don't want to help out manufacturing. Now is the time to force overpaid factory workers to accept reasonable wages rather than allow manufacturing to go offshore. High tech manufacturing CAN compete with countries that pay the workers dirt. I did see that Obama is talking about capping executive salaries.

[ray23]

Actually when yuo think about it kind of interesting. That American consumer or UK E.U. has to make money to buy things. Or continue on the credit route and we will be back to square one again. The cost of living is so insane there, that wages could never compete. A factory worker here can live on 15K baht a month and send money home. That won't even rent an apartment in Los Angeles.

But someone has to buy what that factory worker makes, so he can get the 15K baht a month.

[gregb]

But what does the US make today?

Guns and weapons of course.

There are big companies in the US well positioned to profit from a war. That isn't an accident. Security is certain to become one of the biggest growth industries in the next decade. It is one of the few asset classes I would consider investing in at this point.

Excellent growth potential.

[OriginalPoster]

But what does the US make today?

Guns and weapons of course.

Only because there are restrictions on outsouring work associated with defense contracts. Lift those restrictions, and the bulk of defense work would be subcontracted out too, much the way nearly all the US Tech companies seek to source out almost everything except for design and marketing (and somethimes even that). It is not that there are not American non-defense companies that make things, it's that most have outsourced nearly all thier production.

[warmwater7]

I think you made a freudian slip in the title. I think you meant this thread to be about protectionism and a "buy American" policy. Instead, you wrote, "buy America", which is exactly what China and others are doing with all the dollars we are giving them in exchange for trinkets and oil.

YUP.

all those with their hand out get a little fussy when the money dries up. And yes this affects los, in a very very big way.

A) tourism

exports ( directly & indirectly to the west )

C) political stability.

possible increase in illegal narcotic crop production? . The boys need to keep the cashflow up and export something..............................

[khaowong1]

I see nothing wrong with encouraging Americans to buy American , In the UK for many years they had a buy British campaign with stickers on items produced in the UK .

I don't agree with trade tarifs and subsidies and think that there should be a level playing field for all .

There is where all the problems starts: Level Playing Field for all.