Help Me Choose Among 4 Centers For Meditation Retreat

[kloudcat]

(note: nick123 speaking, got bored of that name; kloudcat now)

Sent an email to a Goenka centre. Got quick reply. All closed because because of swine flu. As prevention, and very sorry and all that. I checked centres in a dozen countries, Asia and Europe. All have swine flu and all are open. A Thai friend, who used to meditate, thinks there's maybe something else going on. Then again, those guys are not supposed to lie. Right Speech, you know. Sent a understanding and friendly email back pointing out that all centres in all other countries (where there is swine flu as well) are open. Also mentioned that swine flu will be around for a while. At least for the winter and spring season of the Northern Hemisphere in 2010, and if they really plan to close all Thai centres for another six months next year. Never got a reply on that one.

Spoke to a knowledgeable Western monk last week. And he said no other centres in Thailand can be compared to those with Goenka tradition. I suggested Wat Suan Mokh, but he said that 's a whole different thing (backpackers seeing it as another 'trip' before jumping on the boat to Samui to try magic mushrooms etc...) Not recommended after doing Goenka retreats, in short.

Flights to Burma are cheap thru Air Asia. And Burmese are far more serious practitioners than Thai. That's the only solution now; hop on a plane.

[rockyysdt]

Wat Suan Mokh could be a solution, but don't fancy sitting with half motivated backpackers (maybe I am too judgmental...)

Don't they leave by the third day?

Sometimes they see it as a low cost segment on their grand tour and hang on,

their non-participation and side activities can be disturbing,

last August quite a few were sent on their way days 5-7.

I felt the volunteers might have been a bit more pro-active in that.

As I'm in the process of planning my retreat & locking into annual leave dates, I've watched this thread with interest.

Just a little concerned about some negative input.

Is Suan Mokh still recommended or will I be experiencing a disruptive environment?

[orchis]

While I noticed when people weren't fully committed to their meditation practise it didnt hinder mine,

I mean it's such an exercise of inward concentration, if it upset me it was off course I who let it.

But recently I read on esangha that WSuan Mokh might have problems with dengue mosquitoes.

[ctira]

From my experience, none of the above I would choose especially if you just starting meditation.

Goenka focuses on "vipassana through pain." You'll have to meditate til you feel that your legs are broken. The point is to realizing that pain is "something" that happens naturally. You can't control it. But a lot of people seem to think that they need to eliminate pain by focusing onit, which is not the nature of vipassana.

Vipassana is not about meditation. Vipassana is about knowing the present state of your mind and body. Meditation that we know of (the sit down, be calm and peaceful) is called samatha.

There is another center that offers vipassana course, called The Young Buddhists Association of Thailand (YBAT). They have 2 branches in Bangkok and Pathumthani. The Pathumthani branch offers a lot of English courses, ranging from 3 days to 7 days. Unfortunately they don't have website in English. You can go check out their venues at http://www.ybat.org/history_1.htm

Once you get a grasp of vipassana, you can practice it virtually anytime & anywhere. Any other info you need email me.

[kloudcat]

Do not agree that Goenka focusses on "vipassana through pain". Those retreats focus on something entirely different. Sure it's not the easiest meditation retreat around, but that's maybe why it is more effective for some.

Pra Charles, resident farang monk at Wat Umong in Chiang Mai, recommended the Goenka courses as a very good choice. He had some theoretical reservations about an essential concept, but did not want to elaborate on that. Monks in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition and a number of famous western teachers (sorry, don't remember the names) have done Goenka courses, and all have nothing but praise.

I think it's an excellent choice for a -- commited -- first timer.

If you just see the meditation retreat as a new experience within your comfort zone or something to check off on your travel adventures, there are plenty of other options. Shorter sometimes, and a lot less disciplined most of the time.

[rockyysdt]

I think Goenka is an excellent choice for a -- commited -- first timer.

If you just see the meditation retreat as a new experience within your comfort zone or something to check off on your travel adventures, there are plenty of other options. Shorter sometimes, and a lot less disciplined most of the time.

Granted, but aren't these closed indefinitely?

Until things change which others do you recommend?

[kloudcat]

Just discovered Goenka centres in Thailand open again.

Bit disappointed they did not bother to let me know. Spent many hours trying to find flights, arrange Myanmar visa etc etc

[Sarathi]

There are some meditation workshops this weekend in Bangkok in the style of Wat Kow Tahm if you want to sample their approach this weekend.

[orchis]

Very nice alternative, I'm booked for Sunday.

[rockyysdt]

At this stage I'll be attending Suan Mokh despite the negatives.

If it's frequented by hippy backpackers who may be disruptive I'll remain unattached & focus on my breathe & mindfulness.

I'll make sure I'm armed with plenty of mosquito repellent & visit my doctor for an anti biotic prescription should I come down with a mosquito born infection.

Do you need to bring your own cushion or are these supplied? No matter how hard I try my legs don't easily assume anywhere near the lotus position & 12 months of groin & leg stretching only resulted in much pain & ligament strain.

As Suan Mokh is only a 10 day retreat I'm keen to supplement my experience with daily sessions at Wat Mahataad next to Silpakorn University in Bangkok.

I understand Wat Mahataad conduct three daily meditation sessions, they have an English speaking monk & that bringing a "puang malai" on the first day for the teacher is recommended.

Does anyone have any experience of Wat Mahataad & whether it's still operating?

Any information, experience or website would be appreciated.

[sabaijai]

The meditation centre at Wat Mahathat is still operating.

[fabianfred]

2) Ram Poeng. Also has a good reputation it seems. But seems a bit heavy on the Buddhism influence. Just seems a little funny that I have to bring 11 lotus flowers, etc, and circle around a Chedi 3 times and do all this chanting. Does that actually have any benefit? Also the focus seems to be on the 26 day retreat. Is the 10 day retreat program a bit neglected? Have heard there are lots of dogs at night. Definitely not a cult, and no cost. Sems to have good English, although can't confirm. I know nothing about the teacher.

I have been to Wat Rampoeng about six times now....once for the full 26 day retreat. It follows the Mahasi Sayadaw system taught by Wat Mahathat in Bangkok, with the extra twist of Ajarn Thong's noting various points about the body.

I started with the Sayadaw system when i used to go to Wat Amphawan, Singhburi several times when I lived in ChiangMai.

It is heavy on the Buddhist influence because it is a Buddhist temple. It has a large population of monks, novices and nuns. It is Thai tradition to pay respects to the teacher when he is going to give us the eight precepts and/or enter upon a meditation course, by presenting him with flowers,incence and candles. But you do not have to bring them along with you since they arrange the necessities for you. Many temples in Thailand celebrate the main Buddhist feasts by having the candlelit procession around the Viharn or chedi.... but in Wat Rampoeng they do it every Buddha day..... many visitors find it an appealing experience....during the walking they chant the Buddhakuna, Dhammakuna, Sanghakuna.

Vipassana is, after all, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness... the method taught by the Buddha as the best way to reach Nirvana.....only taught by the Buddhas.... so why should we try to disassociate Vipassana from Buddhism.

The 26 day retreat is the full introductory course...and those who then wish to follow it up with further visits get to do ten-day top-ups which take them further. Knowing that not all foreign visitors have the time to spend 26 days they also allow first-timers to do a ten-day retreat. TheThais of course can go for just two or three days, whenever they have the time. There is no instruction on Buddhism or Dhamma for foreigners....only the Thais (in thai...so you can attend the dhamma sessions if you understand Thai OK)

The Abbot takes the daily reporting for the foreign yogis....his English is passable, and he usually has an attendant with better English to help translate when needed. His teacher was Ajarn Thong.

Recently a guest at the MonkforaMonth project went on to do a ten-day retreat at the centre in Chom Tong...... I don't know any details but they were impressed. IThey said it was mentioned in the lonely Planet guide. I believe Ajarn Thong has two places at Chom Tong...one a city temple and the other a forest centre.... I don't know yet which one my friend went to. I did visit the forest one many years ago and it looked beautiful and very serene and sutable for serious meditation.

ctria says "Vipassana is not about meditation. Vipassana is about knowing the present state of your mind and body. Meditation that we know of (the sit down, be calm and peaceful) is called samatha."

I think he means that Vipassana is about mindfulness....since it follows the Satipatana sutta, and the formal sitting and walking sessions are really just training us in mindfulness and leading to our evntually being mindful throughout the day in whatever tasks we find ourselves active.

Samatha or concentration meditation is practiced in all ages and traditions, even during the periods when the dhamma has been lost and the buddha has yet to arrive and teach Vipassana..... it is therefore not the path to Nirvana.... by itself.... but is useful mind-training and leads to rebirth in the higher realms... but not escape from Samsara.

[fabianfred]

http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/2009/...er/#comment-117

http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/2009/...ime-retreatant/

http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/page/...+Mai,+Thailand)

http://livingspree.wordpress.com/2008/11/1...ation-bootcamp/

[rockyysdt]

ctria says "Vipassana is not about meditation. Vipassana is about knowing the present state of your mind and body. Meditation that we know of (the sit down, be calm and peaceful) is called samatha."

I think he means that Vipassana is about mindfulness....since it follows the Satipatana sutta, and the formal sitting and walking sessions are really just training us in mindfulness and leading to our evntually being mindful throughout the day in whatever tasks we find ourselves active.

Samatha or concentration meditation is practiced in all ages and traditions, even during the periods when the dhamma has been lost and the buddha has yet to arrive and teach Vipassana..... it is therefore not the path to Nirvana.... by itself.... but is useful mind-training and leads to rebirth in the higher realms... but not escape from Samsara.

What I've been learning is that both Samatha & Vipassana are important.

The benefit of Samatha or sitting meditation is that it strengthens your concentration, enabling you to experience longer periods of pure mindfulness during your wakeful hours.

[fabianfred]

What I've been learning is that both Samatha & Vipassana are important.

The benefit of Samatha or sitting meditation is that it strengthens your concentration, enabling you to experience longer periods of pure mindfulness during your wakeful hours.

yes both are important.... many styles advise starting with Samatha then going on to Vipassana as well. But Samatha alone is not the path to Nirvana.

[rockyysdt]

yes both are important.... many styles advise starting with Samatha then going on to Vipassana as well. But Samatha alone is not the path to Nirvana.

I think Zen or Japanese proponents concentrate on Samatha.

I suspect their belief is that regular deep meditation causes one to become mindful as a natural consequence.

[sabaijai]

That's a fair assumption, I think.

[Worldvisitor]

Go for a vipassana retreat. It's no non-sense retreat. Nothing hidden.

P.

[rockyysdt]

http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/2009/...er/#comment-117

http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/2009/...ime-retreatant/

http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/page/...+Mai,+Thailand)

http://livingspree.wordpress.com/2008/11/1...ation-bootcamp/

Thanks for these links FF.

Great read & very insightful.

[rockyysdt]

http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/2009/...er/#comment-117

http://wanderingdhamma.wordpress.com/2009/...ime-retreatant/

http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/page/...+Mai,+Thailand)

http://livingspree.wordpress.com/2008/11/1...ation-bootcamp/

I find these blogs very helpful for retreat planning & preparation in order to minimise any issues.

A major consideration for me will be to work on establishing my meditation posture & carry aids to protect exposed pressure points.

Lacking protection for their knees & ankles two of the retreatants wrote about many hours spent sitting in overwhelming pain & the remainder of their time dreading their next sitting rather than getting on with focus on the breathe aided by the foundation of a well supported posture.

In the lead up to my retreat I'll work on fine tuning my sitting position with special attention to knees & ankles.

I can't achieve lotus position so I tend to place pressure on these areas. I need to get my cushion height & firmness in balance & supplement this with foam undermatting for the knees/ankles.

Two things concerned me about the retreat schedules & the Abbots instructions in relation to sleep & pain.

Firstly I understand that the mind can play games leading to disruption of practice. This can include the onset of boredom & drowsiness. We all need different periods of sleep to get by. Limiting ones sleep period on the other hand can have a real impact on ones energy & concentration consigning long periods of sitting to sleep sessions rather than productive exercises.

Is it possible that some retreat schedules are deficient when it comes to allowance of generous sleep periods, particularly in a hot climate? Perhaps the inclusion of an afternoon siesta would also be very beneficial, especially to westerners.

The other concern is pain. If pain appears due to our mind trying to take control & disrupt our endeavours then we should overcome this with mindfulness, non attachment & concentration on the breathe.

On the other hand, due to an individuals physical make up, if the pain is real & caused by pressure on nerves & blood vessels over long periods of sitting without appropriate protection then wouldn't this traumatic experience be counter productive?

Wouldn't time spent (with the Abbots direction) on facilitating the optimum sitting position for each individual be better than putting the pain down to mind games?

[Brucenkhamen]

The stretches in this video should help you develop a good posture

As for afternoon siestas most retreats take a siesta after the midday meal, this pretty much happens at every retreat I've ever been on. Often over the first few days I'm particularly tired and take a siesta after breakfast also.

After a few days you'll find you'll not need as much asleep.

[sabaijai]

Wouldn't time spent (with the Abbots direction) on facilitating the optimum sitting position for each individual be better than putting the pain down to mind games?

No matter what position you choose, no matter what your posture is, you will experience plenty of physical pain. Holding *any* position more than 15 minutes will produce pain, guaranteed. It does get better with practice as muscles loosen, etc, but I don't believe anyone ever reaches a point where sitting near-immobile for 45 minutes to an hour doesn't get painful after a certain point.

So while it's important to find the most optimum posture for you - and it varies from individual to individual (take a look at photos of famous monks in meditation, their posture is all over the place) - I'd say the mental aspect of dealing with pain is far more important.

The best preparation is to start sitting at least two hours a day for a couple of weeks beforehand, IMO.

At any rate all preparations fall apart by day three or four and it's just your naked mind wondering whether it will survive. That's the main objective of all that sitting. It's not that the sitting and walking actually accomplish anything in and of themselves. It's a kind of intervention to break down your usual modes of thinking and speculating and daydreaming and see the dhammas for what they are.

[rockyysdt]

At any rate all preparations fall apart by day three or four and it's just your naked mind wondering whether it will survive. That's the main objective of all that sitting. It's not that the sitting and walking actually accomplish anything in and of themselves. It's a kind of intervention to break down your usual modes of thinking and speculating and daydreaming and see the dhammas for what they are.

I'll work on my preparation to minimise the pain, but will expect to face it when it comes.

Ashame though. I've never been big on pain.

[sabaijai]

One of the most practical and usable lessons you will learn in a meditation intensive is that pain is merely nama/rupa; it is not you. If you sit two hours a day for a couple of weeks before your retreat, you could work on that, and begin to sense that. Maybe panna would arise and you wouldn't need to go on retreat at all.

We're always fleeing pain in our daily lives, almost every waking moment; a retreat makes that reality obvious. Once you realise that paramattha dhamma, I don't think you will feel it's a shame at all. It's a suffering that leads to the end of all suffering, as Aj Chah has said.

[Angelv]

Hello,

My name is Angel and I´m from Spain. I´m interested in meditation, in fact, I practice meditation daily.

I´ve seen you wrote a post some time ago, where you mentioned these four places:

1) centro de Goenka (en Pachaburi

2) Wat Ram Poeng, en Chiang Mai

3) Wat Doi Suthep, en CM

4) Wat Suan Mokkh

Please, I would be very pleased if you could tell me your experience in any meditaiton center.

I want to go here = monkchat net

They have two-day courses, and four-day courses.

As I have never attended any of them, I think four-day course it would fit me ok.

My mail is = xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Feel free to write to me.

Thanks!