Can't Sleep

[jayjay0]

Thanks 603 for the tip on the recorder. Unfortunately, I've already went that route a couple times. Doesn' t seem that I have sleep apnea. Once asleep, I'm okay.

My PROBLEM is FALLING to sleep. I just lie awake all night long. Luckily I am getting REST, but no sleep.

I can't seem to turn my mind OFF. For instance. At night watching TV and I hear a jingle, like the TURKISH airline advertisement. I take that to bed with me and sing it all night long. My mind is always racing - about something.

Anyone else have this problem?

I was wondering about that.

A sleep test will not tell you why you can't get to sleep.

I myself have had one. When I took it I had no problem getting to sleep. I have sleep apnea and I have a machine for that.

The test showed me that the quality of my sleep needed some help. I do not get enough oxygen when I sleep so I got a machine to supply it. Also I did not realize that I have RLM. Rapid Leg Movement. I would suddenly kick out in my sleep and this to like the Apnea prevented me from getting a sound sleep. For this I take 100MG of Trazodone.

About a half hour after I take it I suddenly start feeling sleepy. It helps me get to sleep not that that is a big problem for me.

Good luck and keep us updated.

[jimmym40]

Okay, went to RAM today, Tuesday to see the ENT doc who you have to see first to schedule a sleep study.

We discussed my situation in depth. He says the sleep study won't help me at all, mostly for sleep apnea which he agrees is not my problem.

So, he recommends me to see a Nuerologist, which I have an appt at RAM for Weds (tomorrow).

Sorry I cannot provide any info on the sleep study procedures. I did find out that the study alone cost 9,500 baht which doesn't include doc or medicine cost if needed.

I know I'll have to be going thru at several different tests with the neurologist, so will let you all know the final results later.

[Beetlejuice]

I have suffered from severe lack of sleep problems for years, especially since living in Thailand.

Some times during the daytime I feel awful. It`s not that I’m not physically tired, but as soon as my head hits the pillow, my mind goes into overdrive and just cannot concentrate on going to sleep.

The problem is when taking sleeping pills; they become additive and not able to sleep without them. Insomnia runs in my family so it could be an inherited condition?

A friend recommended meditation as a way of learning how to relax the mind. Perhaps worthwhile researching as it worked for my friend.

[cmsally]

Might be one of the problems; you shouldn't really be concentrating on anything before you go to sleep. Mind should be empty as possible. Bit of meditation should do the trick - acknowledge and let go, etc. ,etc. and :sleepy:

[jimmym40]

I'm aware that some type of meditation might be beneficial and helpful. I don't know anything about meditation except that there are several types, one being YOGA and others. Through meditation, do you sit and "think" about something? What?

One other problem I have is that I cannot sit on the floor - at all. I have lower back pain, degenerative disc disease and am in pain most of the time, but is bearable (taking Tramadol).

Any suggestions on which type of meditation might be helpful?

[Ulysses G.]

I'm aware that some type of meditation might be beneficial and helpful. I don't know anything about meditation except that there are several types, one being YOGA and others. Through meditation, do you sit and "think" about something? What?

I'm not an expert, but I believe that the whole point is to not think at all.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I'm aware that some type of meditation might be beneficial and helpful. I don't know anything about meditation except that there are several types, one being YOGA and others. Through meditation, do you sit and "think" about something? What?

I'm not an expert, but I believe that the whole point is to not think at all.

Isn't that the motto of the Thailand School of Driving?

[uptheos]

I can't seem to turn my mind OFF. For instance. At night watching TV and I hear a jingle, like the TURKISH airline advertisement. I take that to bed with me and sing it all night long. My mind is always racing - about something.

Anyone else have this problem?

Now I've got that bloody Turkish Airlines tune in my head........thanks!

I usually find that doing something unstimulating, like reading the posts on TV instead of watching TV before bed helps........however, the light of the computer doesn't help with melatonin levels.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

My mind is always racing - about something.

Anyone else have this problem?

My entire life. Until Ambien. Now I sleep without Ambien. Both quality and restless sleep are very much habitual.

Exercise daily and try Melatonin

be very careful with drugs such as Xanax.

Excellent 3 points. Melatonin (natural) should be tried WELL BEFORE anti-anxiety meds like Alprazolam and Diazepam or heavy-duty coma-inducing sedatives like Ambien or Rohypnol.

Be VERY careful with Alprazolam (Xanax), in particular. It really should not be FDA-approved, in my "used to love it, now scared to touch it" opinion. I suspect the full impact of the damaging side-effects of that powerful drug will present en masse over the next few decades.

I cannot get to sleep no matter how tired I am. For years now, taking Ambien, Ambien CR and Tamazapam 5 times a week. And even then they don't put me to sleep.

after taking ambien, I'm alive the next day and very difficult to not take it.

Very difficult to follow your (seemingly) contradictory statements....or have I misunderstood something?

[jimmym40]

Scooter: Yes, I see I have a contradictory in my posts. What I really mean is that sometimes, taking ambien doesn't fully work and put me to sleep. But when I do get 3-4 hours sleep from these sleeping pills, I do feel great for one day/next day. The point here is that I can real feel the difference upon getting "sleep" compared to NOT getting any sleep.

[jackr]

5-HTP works well.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Melatonin gets my vote... I only tried it for the first time recently and wow I go into zombie sleep. A little goes a long way.

Also supposed to be good for releasing Growth Hormones during sleep.

I have seen it for sale at pharmacies at KSK so must be OTC in Thailand.

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun JimmyM40,

We're joining with everyone here in wishing that you soon find a way to restful, refreshing sleep !

Now that you've revealed some complicating factors: "back pain, degenerative disc disease and am in pain most of the time, but is bearable (taking Tramadol)," as well as your previously mentioned use of Zolpidem (Ambien), we think that makes an even more compelling case to for you to:

1. diagnose distinct physical problems, syndromes, etc. that may be directly causal here : you are already on that path by going for the sleep test which should discriminate whether apnea might be the cause, and probably will give you some good baseline information, useful if that's not the cause.

2. assuming no apnea: our opinion is that you are going to need to, under medical supervision, evaluate your body and lifestyle, and possible drug interactions (tramadol, ambien, etc.), further, and that evaluation may, or may not include, endocrine function, diet, exercise, use of caffeine, nicotine, and other stimulants, use of alcohol, or whatever other psychotropic recreational substances you might use, possibly neurological factors ... you need a skilled clinician, and the obvious strategy is to exclude the most common causes first, and then proceed to look at possibly rarer causes.

When you have a real "handle" that there's no obvious medically clinical physical cause, you can start to look at possible psychological dimensions, and you can consider also adopting into your lifestyle use of "alternative techniques" that are well-known to often induce relaxation and promote sleep. These could range from some form of meditation or yoga to "western style" techniques like Jacobson's Progressive Muscle exercises:

Progressive Muscle Relaxation

which are very effective. By the way, it's our personal opinion, for what that's worth, that practicing Vipassana is often "energizing," and that, if the intent is relaxation and sleep induction, practicing a more yogic-like meditation with an external (candle, yantra), or internal (mantra), focus may have a more powerful effect.

Of course, you also want to look at this sleeplessness in the context of your emotional and social life in the last year or years: if you have had significant losses of money, relationships, status, deaths in the family, job roles, or have just had a significant amount of life-change in a short-period of time: all these could be contributing factors here.

In my human family three out of the four children (my human form being the eldest) have strong reactions of depression during the winter months, often including a desire to sleep much more than usual: my sister, a clinical psychologist, uses a light-box regularly during the low-sun months timed to go off at the "normal" sunrise time, and she's found that helps her more than any other medication she's ever tried. Here, closer to the equator, with a much less shortened day during the winter months, we find our own human form's reaction to winter much less dramatic, but still there.

In the last twenty years, western pyschology and psychiatry have at last recognized that this seasonal reaction of depression really is a discrete phenomenon, and now it's called, clinically, SAD (Seasonal Affective Disorder).

On this thread you've received a pot-pourri of advice, with good intentions, that reminds me of my childhood where, when I had a cold or the flu, everybody in the family had some different "home remedy" they wanted to lay on me, in addition to whatever the doctor gave me An exception, obviously, is the response from Jungian which appears to us to embody the "cred" of a real doctor.

But, note that: none of us here (except, perhaps, we guess, Jungian) are doctors, psychologists, meditation teachers, etc. To quote Gandhi somewhat out of context:

"I want the wind of all cultures to blow around my house, but I don't want to be knocked over by any of them."

We suggest you listen to our words, but listen more carefully to what your doctors tell you.

And, depending on your age, your temperament, your metabolism, decline in sleep, and sleep quality, as you age, particularly past fifty-sixty, may be just a "fact of life."

good luck, ~o:37; (once upon a time a psychiatric social worker)

Edited December 15, 2010 by orang37

[jimmym40]

Orange37: Thanks for all the encouraging words and information. There has been lots of info supplied by other posters.

Just returned from RAM today, saw the neurologist. She did the routine physical tests (5 min) e.g. walking a straight line, eye movements following the pointed finger, reflexes, etc. Just normal routine testing. Final result: no neurogical problems - referring me to phschiatry. Have an apt on Monday.

Just a bit more info to all. I'ved tried many different herbs, including melatonin and to no avail. I'm 60 yrs old and have had no life changing events. Been married to the same thai lady for almost 30 yrs. There is no physical reason that I am aware that may even come close to causing my problem (getting to sleep).

So, I'll recap. Been to see Dr Morgan (at her clinic on Hang Dong Rd, almost across from TESCO) Went to see about getting sleep study (after discussing with doc, he indicated won't pin point the problem because the study is geared towards people with sleep apnea) He referred me to Neurology which I was there today. Next phsyciatry. I'm just going thru the stops and I think at the end I'll have to take control of my situation (as I've tried to do several times) but haven't been able to make any progress.

Again, thanks to all that provide sincere posts and concern about this problem.

Thai Visa is great and a valuable resource.

[jayjay0]

Jimmy.

I know you don't have sleep apnea.

But there are other things that can affect the quality of your sleep. As I said in a earlier post a sleep study will not help you to get to sleep.

The fact is you do after a while fall asleep. A sleep study will tell you if you are getting quality sleep.

I know for my self it detected the Rapid Leg Movement. My ex back in Canada said I used to kick in my sleep. I didn't believe her. All though looking back over my life I can remember 2 or 3 times kicking out so hard I woke my self.

The doctor explained to me that every time I kicked I woke up a little bit. The fact was I was unable to get to the deeper more beneficial sleep.

As I said before I was not getting enough oxygen. During the day I got enough but My body had to play catch up.

Now I have taken care of both those problems and am more awake during my waking hours.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Scooter: Yes, I see I have a contradictory in my posts. What I really mean is that sometimes, taking ambien doesn't fully work and put me to sleep. But when I do get 3-4 hours sleep from these sleeping pills, I do feel great for one day/next day. The point here is that I can real feel the difference upon getting "sleep" compared to NOT getting any sleep.

Ah okay I gotcha now. Yes, with absolutely no sarcasm, from personal experience I know that difference can be astronomical. To simply call it 'dehabilitating' would be a gross understatement.

Not wishing to offend orang37 (who may be a great physician), but it is my personal opinion his faith in the medical industry is...ridiculously irrational. As jimmym40 has already displayed in relating his experiences (and I'm certain anyone who cannot relate their own frustrations at the medical industry's limitations is a freakishly lucky individual), the medical industry isn't really all it's cracked up to be. And often, medical practitioners are mere frauds. And, disturbingly often, simply criminally incompetent.

I'm not saying brilliant physicians don't exist, or that medical science is still in the "Witch Doctor" phase; I'm merely stating the obvious. Competent physicians are an elusive rarity and - unless you're extremely lucky - the interminable process of enduring well-intentioned yet expensive trial-and-error Witch Doctoring from a generic 'specialist' ("let's try this! fail. okay, let's try this! fail. it must be this! fail. it's worth doing this! fail. um, what about trying this? ENOUGH!") is...exhausting. And expensive.

I hope jimmym40 is like lottery-winner freakishly lucky now that he's at the stage where he has to dip his toes into what really is a world of pure Witch-Doctoring. There is no point in debating the fact. The medical industry's understanding of the human mind is so pathetically limited and polluted with vested interests, it's almost criminal that there are entire professions charging for 'therapy' and 'psychiatry'. They're worse than chiropractors (which is a bad example, as competent chiropractors are gods walking amongst mortals). To pre-empt any ill-advised attempts at debate from psychologists (lol) or psychiatrists (more 'educated' = more dangerous): TIME.com - Anti-depressants are (effectively) placebos. End of debate.

I think jimmym40 is vastly better off assessing opinions on forums and researching for himself online. There is nothing a psychologist (lol) can tell you that can't be garnered far easier without the requirement to hand over your credit card for their... therapeutic words. And there is nothing a psychiatrist is aware of that cannot be assessed (sans conflicts-of-interest) or determined far more efficiently via Google search and subsequent research. Legislation ridiculously levies a requirement on you to debase yourself when you need a script, of course...but unless you are incapable of research, it is my strong preference to limit my exposure to their incompetence to a minimum. I am not a medical professional. I won't tack on a caveat because it is medical professionals who should be required to make disclaimers before delivering their profound (ly expensive) diagnoses. Blindly put your health in their hands, and they will likely gleefully help themselves to your wallet, at the expense of your health (gross, yet vastly accurate, generalisation). After referring the industry to Google for the third time when handed scripts for contraindicated meds when I enlisted the shysters to cure my sleeping issues (Ambien works a treat, but I feared dependence and rapidly increasing tolerance at the time), I realised that putting my health in the hands of fools was kind of...foolish. High-ranking Google search results tend not to prescribe contraindicated medications concurrently. Or that's been my experience, at least.

Whilst I'm ranting against medical fraudsters, how about those surgeons...Google research won't assess your dehabilitating RSI and categorically and unequivocally and soberly inform you deadpan that your ONLY remaining option is dehabilitating surgery with a low chance of success; and then schedule you into theatre without even waiting for your answer (such is the nature of their position, protected from audits by virtue of the complexities in auditing a requirement for surgery...post-surgery). I didn't have Carpal Tunnel, as it turned out. Which makes the two surgeons who scheduled me into their operating theatre...no less than fraudulent criminals. I'd be none the wiser of course, were it not for miraculous circumstance and far-less-miraculous laziness causing two missed appointments with their gleaming knives and equally-catastrophic invoices. Strangely, I feel no joy at having been so lucky.

The conflict-of-interest that arises from surgeons assessing whether or not you need surgery...it's worse than asking a mechanic to look under your hood as you stand there with an open chequebook and a concerned look on your face.

On this thread you've received a pot-pourri of advice, with good intentions, that reminds me of....

...99% (rounded down) of all medical appointments?

And...that'll be my ridiculously valid rant for the day. It's been good talking to all 4 of you. Evening all....

[bartender100]

I read on another thread Kava was now banned in Thailand, but i did find this website based here overing it.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/100166482/Kava_Kava_Softgels.html

[orang37]

... Not wishing to offend orang37 (who may be a great physician), but it is my personal opinion his faith in the medical industry is...ridiculously irrational. ... snip ...

Orang37 is not a physician. Never claimed to be, always carefully disclaimered anything said here with a clear statement to that effect. We have consistently in all our posts responding to folks medical and or psychological problems stressed the need to be an "informed pro-active consumer," and the need to use every resource you have to find a competent practitioner, hopefully someone recommended by someone who has just had a personal positive experience in treatment with them.

We do not have "faith in the medical industry" : we have intellectual commitment to scientific reasoning, and logical deduction, always tempered by strong skepticism.

Your inference that we believe anything outside "modern allopathic medicine" is not possibly valid, or useful: is incorrect. And our comments to JimmyM40, made with sincere empathy for his struggle with insomnia, mention many things outside typical "modern organized medicine."

TCS wrote: "I hope jimmym40 is like lottery-winner freakishly lucky now that he's at the stage where he has to dip his toes into what really is a world of pure Witch-Doctoring. There is no point in debating the fact. The medical industry's understanding of the human mind is so pathetically limited and polluted with vested interests, it's almost criminal that there are entire professions charging for 'therapy' and 'psychiatry'. They're worse than chiropractors (which is a bad example, as competent chiropractors are gods walking amongst mortals). To pre-empt any ill-advised attempts at debate from psychologists (lol) or psychiatrists (more 'educated' = more dangerous): TIME.com - Anti-depressants are (effectively) placebos. End of debate."

You mean end of your personal catharsis blowing off things you are very upset about to the point where you have thrown the baby out with the bath, because the water in the bath you were dipped into was polluted water that made you sicker.

TCS wrote: "Whilst I'm ranting against medical fraudsters, how about those surgeons...Google research won't assess your dehabilitating RSI and categorically and unequivocally and soberly inform you deadpan that your ONLY remaining option is dehabilitating surgery with a low chance of success; and then schedule you into theatre without even waiting for your answer (such is the nature of their position, protected from audits by virtue of the complexities in auditing a requirement for surgery...post-surgery). I didn't have Carpal Tunnel, as it turned out. Which makes the two surgeons who scheduled me into their operating theatre...no less than fraudulent criminals. I'd be none the wiser of course, were it not for miraculous circumstance and far-less-miraculous laziness causing two missed appointments with their gleaming knives and equally-catastrophic invoices. Strangely, I feel no joy at having been so lucky."

We sincerely hope you, emotionally, get past the trauma you've experienced so that you can think more clearly about someone else's problem which has nothing in common with what you have experienced with RSI.

TCS quoted Orang37:

On this thread you've received a pot-pourri of advice, with good intentions, that reminds me of....

But, by truncating the comment, and leaving off the smiley at the end, and editing out the humorous and anecdotal sub-text of it, you are using it, as an excerpt, just to reify your rant.

TCS wrote: "And...that'll be my ridiculously valid rant for the day. "

Ioho: "ridiculously valid rant" does have a certain charm, even a "zen-like" quality to it, but it is an oxymoron, right up there with Ronald Reagan's "Peacekeeper Missile."

We appreciate you began your post by saying you did not wish to offend us, but let us set you at ease: posts of this type, cathartic rants, invoke in us not a sense of being offended personally, or challenged intellectually, but a sense of compassion for the obvious suffering you've gone through, and are going through now.

And we sincerely wish you the blessings of a clear mind, a happy heart, and a deep acceptance that our own nature is imperfection embedded in an imperfect world, which, in spite of all odds, we can somehow still, in moments, transcend.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." Aristotle

best, ~o:37;

Edited December 18, 2010 by orang37

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Orang37 is not a physician. Never claimed to be, always carefully disclaimered anything said here with a clear statement to that effect.

Oh, my apologies. For some reason, ah I see now I misread your rec of a local psych clinic to mean you worked there in some capacity. Apologies. But I am confused though, are all of you Orang37 - or am I being a nit by my (genuine) confusion at your continual use of "we"?

I was actually using physician in the classic sense of being a 'healer'. The best physician I've ever seen was a first year sports remedial grad from Sweden who told me not to even think about surgery. A month later, I was 'cured' - of...weak stabilising muscles in the wrists. I couldn't make this up. These little anecdotes which you dislike are verifiable, of course. And I relate them because I'm making what I thought was a fairly unsubtle point. You advocate the benefits of ignoring the guys offering free advice, and going with the guys who charge a lot for it. Great argument, easily saleable. I understand that. It's what I bought, often. It makes sense.

It's just that I have not experienced the upside. Quite the opposite. I was charged a lot by the guys you have a lot of faith in. And pretty comprehensively proved to them I knew they were fraudulent. Then they charged me anyway. I guess I'm just saying, I don't share your faith. That's what we're really talking about here, isn't it? Faith.

Arguably, anyone giving any medical advice is making a claim to knowledge. Only some are selling it though. I got almost everything that's worked online for free or very cheap off physicians who weren't interested at all in my CCs. Oh they exist all right. Some I imagine are posting on TV (not me, I just rant against those who represent competence, I don't actually have any and not selling any). But the genuine physicians I owe so much to, of course they refused fair payment, but you could assess their approach to medicine by the fact they were undercharging for clearly high quality care and there was no circular pattern of Failure to Heal, whilst the Invoices rock on. Call me crazy, but surely you can understand why I'd feel so strongly I'd rant about the issue? Emotions triggered by a post advising accepting pot pourri advice for free, instead suggesting one pays through the nose for one's pot pourri?

It's all opinions, at the end of the day, right?

Which is kind of my entire point, as far as the psych industries and surgeons in any case. I am unable to determine the logic in deriding uninvested pot pourri info, and paying for it instead. I assume you were deriding non-professionals for their failure to charge? As I'm quite certain there is no verifiable evidence to suggest the guys who do charge for their psychological (lol, sorry but seriously - that's an hilarious industry) or psychiatric services have some history of sustained success and their popularity is merely due to religious-like fervour. And simply having faith? Am I somehow misinformed and unfairly tarring an entire industry with almost outrageous claims of systematic fraud? They should sue me. If I was lying, and a better writer who was capable of editing, I half imagine they might have a crack. Just quietly, I'd like my chances, what with the whole contraindicated whoops! over. and over. and over.

For the record, I hold all fallacious claims to be scams if I'm charged for them and they don't deliver as promised / suggested / implied. Whether ancient medicine, "modern" medicine (that has a nice, expensive ring to it) or sheer quackery. If I was charged, and it didn't work, I'd feel ripped off. Wouldn't you? May I introduce you to the psychiatric industry, as I currently understand it exists.

I note with bemusement that not having an actual placebo they can sell doesn't seem to bother psychologists none, who (I'm reliably told) sell no product whatsoever! And by all accounts, do quite well out of it. Good on 'em. In there and having a go, terrible uni placement scores? Don't let high school put you on the back foot. It's great to see that can-do pluck. Roll up your sleeves, no fuss or moaning about bad luck, just whack a diploma on your wall, and start charging. Top stuff.

A physician heals. I actually have fairly realistic expectations despite the high prices (which really suggest some kind of guarantee of competency service exists, right? maybe some cheesy casino promotions with cashback if they strike out)

• If we can't cure you with our first 5 attempts or win by virtue of placebo default or otherwise fluke a cure, you'll get your money back! Guaranteed success. We guarantee it!
• We will pay you your initial investment **multiplied** by 100! It's the Jackpot Bonus!!...it goes off if we give you scripts which can kill you, at the same time - What are you waiting for? Anyone can play.

Probably got a bit carried away on the last one, which might plausibly send the industry bankrupt. Which isn't being very reasonable, at all. Though I couldn't make the argument for why, myself.

What I don't think is unreasonable, when paying a lot for a professional services, is to expect them to have > understanding of their profession than you do? Surely that's about as fair a requirement as things yet. I think so.

It's not just after their incompetence that they have the nerve to charge you, of course. Hippocratic Oath notwithstanding, surely Orang37 has attempted to inconsiderately access their encyclopaedic-like knowledge of the latest drugs they must prescribe 5000 units of by Xmas to get a January holiday in the Caribbean...without first putting their minds to rest as to whether or not you had access to adequate means and / or acceptable insurance? Perhaps you'd care to try a fun little self-experiment in this regard? (obviously best for the experiment if you could wait until you were so sick, you were terrified and panicked...but I don't think that's necessarily a deal-breaker for the realities to hammer home)

I would feel more hard done-by if I thought I was. As I understand it, I'm not all that hard done-by at all. Other horror stories make me feel almost guilty at my incensed fury. Not sure how that makes sense, but there you have it. Evidence that their incompetence can make you irrational, i.e. crazy.

But you're in luck! For that, they have just the thing! Boy, aren't you lucky! Just relax, sit back, flick over your CCs, let them have a few big swings and see if they can't hit the sucker ailing you over the dugout. The more strikes they clock up, the more $ they make. I imagine MLB games wouldn't be watchable if hitters were paid equally for every strike and every RBI, but a run ends the cash bonus round. Surely you'd agree we'd all see a lot more strikes yes? The more misses, the more revenue. Easy game, really. Swing and miss. Is it so peculiar, that they would miss so often.*

* I should clarify my wild allegation here. It's important to note I'm not accusing them of intentionally giving me bum pills whilst withholding the cure. I sincerely apologise to any psychs I may have offended. I did not mean that at all. I firmly believe they are not capable of that.

To pre-empt any ill-advised attempts at debate from psychologists (lol) or psychiatrists (more 'educated' = more dangerous): TIME.com - Anti-depressants are (effectively) placebos. End of debate."

You mean end of your personal catharsis blowing off things you are very upset about to the point where you have thrown the baby out with the bath, because the water in the bath you were dipped into was polluted water that made you sicker.

Quite literally, yes. Except I wouldn't be cracking wry jokes about it if they made me sicker. I'm furious enough just at being scammed. You may have missed my point (likely because I made it 200 times when 2 would have done lol). I was being prescribed SSRIs by a psych when I just wanted to get some better sleep. Yeah, I was feeling down a bit, I was exhausted every day. I reckon I knew would make me feel better though? Better sleep? He wanted to treat me for depression. Said I needed SSRIs. He was quite adamant about it. It made no logical sense to me but I was desperate, willing to try just about anything. And after all, he's the doc. A few months and a number of wacky scripts that a few doctors are shipping out with less-than-logical reasoning for my needing them. I trusted them. Why would my docs deceive me? The thought never crossed my mind. Until, as the months dragged on, I still felt nothing. At some point, I got a new bed and noticed instant improvement. He tried to claim it for one of his scripts, of course.

You get a unique creepy feeling when you're dealing with a professional shyster, I know it well cause I'm really a gullible and trusting fool (for all my bluff otherwise). I had that creepy, crawling sensation the entire week in month 5 or whatever - the gut feeling that you're looking like a fool, the scammers are laughing at your blind trust, but you don't want to believe it so you try not to think about it. Early in this watershed week, I'd been playing out how this scam would go in my mind. I'd pay for nothing, they'd accept, pass me nothing, I would ingest nothing, months of this expensive charade would go by, frustrating for me, hilarious for them, then I say "does the Emperor actually have any clothes on?" - they sigh, roll their eyes at my failure to trust their expertise, and say "Oh, lets give it a bit longer ay? Then we'll try something else, alright!"

I was trying to convince myself I wouldn't but I knew I would likely sigh and say "okay..."

I never got that far. In Feb this year, I was reading TIME magazine at a restaurant and almost fell off my chair. Blushing with fury and shame, I walked to my hotel, flushed all their expensive junk, laughed sardonically with a touch of bitterness perhaps, and never went back.

Didn't feel any better. But then that's kind of my point, innit?

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Well that's my work for the day, gonna hit the pub. Apologies for long rants jimmy, I think I'm all ranted out so that should be that. And I sincerely hope you have an experience that most certainly can happen with chronic issues seemingly miraculously cured, even if it makes me seem a boob gl and I'd appreciate any and all progress reports or experience reports, positive or negative but positive is preferable.

[uptheos]

I read on another thread Kava was now banned in Thailand,

Most things are banned in Thailand, but easily obtainable.

[jimmym40]

Further Update:

Today, Monday, 20 Dec, went to the psychiatrist at RAM. Very pleasant fellow, very knowledgeable/intelligent. Communicated perfectly in English. I really enjoyed talking with him and discussing my problem. Bottom line was: he could prescribe some medication that would "mess with my mind" but he says basically sleeping must come naturally. When I mentioned herbal remedies, he just shook his head, indicating a down right NO, don't work. He told me the best thing I could do is to keep taking the ambien, as long as I do not develop any serious side effects. I said, you mean I could take it daily, he said yes. So, I've gone thru the gambit of seeing the "professionals" and am back to the beginning. I'm not giving up trying to lick this problem on my own. I'm going to do all the things "I'm suppose to do" to try to fall asleep naturally, i.e. eating right, no caffeine, proper sleeping environment, exercise, etc, etc.

SIde Note: I had an appt to also see the urologist. Bottom line: WASTE OF TIME (my opinion) This guy should have retired 10 yrs ago. Won't go in to any details. I'd just recommend going to Lanna or other hospital.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

psychiatrist at RAM. Very pleasant fellow, very knowledgeable/intelligent. Communicated perfectly in English. I really enjoyed talking with him and discussing my problem. Bottom line was: he could prescribe some medication that would "mess with my mind" but he says basically sleeping must come naturally.

Sounds like a decent fellow - gl gl!